What Child is This? Jesus! a radical who started a Movement? a John

[KoKo]

Lennon? Who was this, who taught people to Love One Another? Who said that even the lowest of us were welcome at the table? Who led his life trying to say that the "lowest of us" are welcome at the table?

If I met him today would I see him as Newt Gingrich or Tom DeLay? Would I see him as the Bushes? Would I see him as Bill Bennet or Rush Limbaugh?

Who would I see this child born in a stable of "lowly birth?" Wasn't the "Lowly birth" the point of it all? That if we don't look out for those of us "born in stables" how do we know where our future lies?

On Edit: Not a "religious post. Just a "speculation post" about a man who was born...not on this night, but who managed to capture centuries of thought because his message had some worth to it which "struck a cord with average folks." A Kucinich? Who else would Jesus fit in as a "Messenger" for what we all need to face in our ordinary lives...our "political lives." :shrug:

[Cry Freedom]

1. Gandhi

n/t

[G_j]

2. was it Lenny Bruce who said?

if Jesus came back in our times, people would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.

..if you read the story of Jesus he sounds like someone who cared for the poor, the sick, those who were in prisons. He ran the money changers out of the temple. He was an advocate of non-violence and love. They called him the Prince of Peace.

RWers miss the boat.
:shrug:

[KoKo]

3. Yes......he seems even more radical when one see's how his "mesage" has

been corrupted. I think that what we are doing is what he "said to do," even for our Pagans/Wiccans/agnostics/Jews/and whatever beliefs or "non-beliefs" we have here on DU.

Hope and Peace for the "least among us" rings true with me. And those who have distorted what "Jesus" was a symbolism of..don't get the "meaning" and are what we've seen throughout history. That "Movements of Mankind" will always have the "distorters and distractors, and those who are challengers and are dismayed that those who are considered "less than they" might have a "Point" about where mankind is going.

So, for lack of better things, I will go with what I read Jesus said and will support "honoring his birth." Because......

I believe Jesus was for the "least of us...the common person..and wanted to let us know that we could GROW AND BE POWERFUL! (he wouldn't have approved of the "Fundie Way" to do it IMHO...but I'm an Episcopalian...we are "sort of Liberal that way" ;-)'s

Still....I think his words were "true." No matter what anyone says. A Philosopher or whatever.

And, HOW he's been distorted by the RWingers, shows a "lack of moral will and perserverance in the Christian Religious Community to me.

Plus..we need to get our message together with our Jewish Old Testament folks to try to move a "HUMANITARIAN MOVEMENT" into the forefront. Just "my humble opinion" on Christmas Eve, here.

[G_j]

13. thanks for this post

I stay out of religious discussions here as a rule, but you have approached the subject from a place that allows an opening for simple reflection on on a figure that has shaped history in terrible ways but also moved individuals to open their hearts to selfless service.
If I actually had a "religion" you might call me a Pagan/Christian/Buddhist/Taoist/Rock and Roller. I know one thing for myself, there is a flame that lights the way of my heart. I call it the Christ light. But that it just a name, it matters not what the flame of love is called. What matters is that it is the birthright of all. When a person allows it to live and burn within, they can not help but care about their fellow beings. You don't have to call it God you can call it Good! One does not have to proclaim themselves a "Christian" to nurture the love and compassion that Jesus pleaded with people to see within themselves. I am glad on this one special occasion, Christmas Eve. to say Jesus is my brother and I walk with him, though I don't call myself a Christian. I know him at least as well as any prideful soap box preacher and maybe better because I keep my mouth shut and only hope to be able to understand in my ignorant way that light and love so I can be of some small benefit to the world.
The Christ, the flame of love is the birthright of every person. Though it need not be called Christ or any other name. It does not have a religion. No religion owns it. This is what I believe Jesus taught. And I believe that when Jesus said the way is through 'me'. what was lost, or purposely hidden through translation, was that "me" was the flame that is in all of us. I believe he taught to follow the flame within that all people share and that 'he' was 'us'. For this reason I would not be accepted in most "Christian" churches, and I don't want or need to be.
I find it sad that some people are always invoking the name of Jesus but not talking about love. It would be better they talked about love.
The "Fundies" for the most part preach and rail against that love and attempt to cover up and destroy that light. Yet they don't even know it. If this were not the case we would all be working together towards peace and tolerance, to obliterate hatred, racism and violence.
And all the swords would be turned into plow shares. There would be no religion, it would simply be the way of life. (Imagine!)


-end of my one time only rant. :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

16. Your thoughts are very Friendly

(Quakerly) -- did you know that? Your "Christ light" is called the Inner Light and the Light of Christ by Friends.

You would probably feel very at home in an "unprogrammed" Friends Meeting (but not in a more evangelical Friends Church, such as Nixon was apparently raised in.) In an unprogrammed Meeting, members sit in silence, meditating. If someone feels moved to speak (or sing), they do. Sometimes several people will speak, sometimes only one, sometimes no one. No liturgy, no sermons, no prayers, no visiblesacraments (there is a belief in "baptism of the spirit"), no clergy, just an hour of silent meditation that may be broken by members speaking.

And I probably don't have to tell you about Friends' social beliefs and actions, derived from Christ's teachings.

Actually, though, I don't think you're correct about your beliefs not being accepted in any Christian church. I moved happily from my mainstream Protestant childhood into Quakerism and, years later, moved equally happily into Catholicism. Outwardly, Quakerism and Catholicism seem polar opposites but each has strong mystical traditions and strong social work traditions. When I became a Quaker, I felt freed by eliminating the ritual from my spiritual life but later I was happy to welcome it back (and magnified) when I became a Catholic. I don't need the physical beauty of a Catholic church building or the beauty of Catholic liturgy and prayers in order to hear the Inner Light, but I appreciate and enjoy beauty and it can enhance my experience of Jesus/God/the Creator. I have in fact had more significant meditative experiences in Catholic churches than in Quaker meetings, though perhaps that has more to do with being older/ wiser. Who knows?

I've also found it to be true that many Quakers and many Catholics are more than slightly interested in Buddhism, Taoism, and other religious/ spiritual traditions. (And rock and roll, of course.) So don't hesitate to visit churches or Quaker meetings if you feel moved to do so, you might meet some compatible souls, as I have.

Peace be with you!

[G_j]

18. :-)

Thanks for your wonderful post.

it is very unlike me to address this subject here, especially in GD. Folks are more familiar with me addressing injustices and echoing the outrage that we all feel.
But I really thought KoKo did a great service by opening up this thread, and aside from it being Christmas, I wanted to honor her heartfelt gesture. These times are very, very trying, and many of us find a need to ground in things 'unseen'. I have become so aware of all the evil going down and spend a lot of time trying to educate others about what is happening. It's easy to get thrown way out of balance. The despair can be debilitating. I also recognise that anger is sometimes the love of justice. Balance is the key and I believe there are aspects of our spirit that need some TLC.

I love the Quaker approach, have had many Quaker friends over the years and have attended meetings. I am particularly aligned with their peace work, and will be forever grateful for the Quaker draft counseling I received in the sixties. They helped me apply as a Conscientious Objector. I think Jesus would feel at home in the Quaker community.
I recently helped facilitate some non-violence workshops at our local
Quaker meeting house.

In the last 20 years or so I've been very aligned with Native American spirituality and ceremony. I have some American Indian elders/teachers/friends in my life, whom I treasure greatly.
I am member of a "Christian" church, which is very different
from any other I know of: The White Eagle Lodge, which has it's roots in England. Very open and mystical. www.whiteaglelodge.org

Sometimes Tibetan monks visit our town and I will go and do a
meditation with them.
Years ago I decided to visit a different Christian church each Sunday
and I have attended Catholic mass more than once and found it very powerful.
I get together with friends and partake in some beautiful pagan seasonal ceremonies. We just had a wonderful solstice ritual the other night.
I have had the great honor of meeting Starhawk (a very good witch):-)www.starhawk.org and learning about bringing magic into activism (very powerful). She has really opened my eyes in many ways.

anyway, what I was saying was more aimed at mainstream, fundamentalist and Baptist thinking as some of my family is caught up in that, fortunately not to
the point of nastiness. :-)

I am very happy being on the fringe. I do think it helps in our humanitarian work to nurture our spirits in whatever way our heart leads us to. Republicans often try to portray progressives/liberals/Democrats as "Godless". How very untrue! Most of us just don't recognize a vengeful and cruel "God" and have little need for dogma.

oh and Merry Christmas/Yule/Solstice!
peace on earth

[DemBones DemBones]

23. What a lovely "fringe" you inhabit!

I am not surprised to learn of your Quaker connections (or any of the others) but thought it would be a shame if you had somehow missed out on Quakerism -- and it's always good to promote the Friends to others reading who might benefit from Quaker spirituality.

It seems that we are kindred spirits as, though I've not had the experiences of meditating with Tibetan monks, attending Native American/ American Indian ceremonies, or meeting Starhawk, I am attracted to all forms of spirituality as well. Native American spirituality has fascinated me since childhood and, beginning in high school, I've (mostly independently, but sometimes formally) studied Zen and Mahayana Buddhism, Christian mysticism (St. Teresa of Avila, George Fox, etc.), William James, myths, symbols, magic, fairy tales, Jungian spirituality, lives of Christian saints, Christian iconography / iconology in art/ art hustory, Druidism, etc. Though friends and acquaintances have become Ba'hais, Buddhists, etc., I've chosen to stay closer to Christianity as my ancestors have been Christian for many centuries, before which Druidism was no doubt the "faith of my fathers"!

When I post about religion at DU, it is usually to defend Catholicism against Catholic bashers, many of whom might be surprised if they read my posts in this thread. But I was glad that KoKo started this thread today because, as you say, our world is full of fear, anger, despair, and evil. I felt called to respond and expand about what you were saying by sharing some of my experiences. I believe that spiritual life is extremely important to us all and that too many people deny their spiritual needs because they have problems with organized religion, expecting perfection from people in churches while they don't expect perfection from people in the other spheres of their life. And a Chinese proverb tells us,

"Perfection is the end of all growth, and therefore like death."

[G_j]

34. that's a wise proverb

I wanted to respond to your post, but I've been busy and have not been able to focus. Organized religion has it's role to play. Some find them helpful in their lives while others don't. I am sure there are many reasons why some people reject organized religion. Some simply find their inspiration in other places. Some have been burned in various ways or have experienced hypocrisy that turned them off. Others simply don't believe in a "higher power", a "force' or whatever. I trust everyone will find what they need to find in their own way in their own time.

My own personal experience is that institutions tend to become focused on their existance as institutions and end up sort of just going through the motions.
I also like many feel a bit burned out by excessive worshiping of the Bible. I could live with Thomas Jefferson's copy in which he just included the actual words attributed to Jesus. Not to say the rest isn't pretty fascinating reading. There is much history not included in the Bible and translations have been subject to heavy politics. It's an important and in parts wonderful book, but I think in a sense it's been made into another false idol.
For me in the end it's just one of many books which can inspire someone to search within for a living spirit. I also love to hear someone read passages from Hermann Hesse or Walt Whitman.
Having people in my immediate family who have obsessed on the Bible kind of wore me out. So church sermons that continually quote and discuss the Bible don't do it for me.

I love and greatly admire progressive Christian activists though.
I have been involved a little with the SOA watch which is Catholic based and having been involved in the peace movement for most of my life I have spent a lot of time riding in buses etc. with nuns and other religious activists. I have to say Catholic peace workers in particular Rock!
I was happy to see the National Council of Churches come out in opposition to the Iraq invasion before it happened, a first.

not sure where I'm going with this ramble, but I thought I'd add some comments. "For every thing there is a season." Organized religion comes in and out of focus.
But really in my life the words of John Lennon often echo, "Imagine no Religion"
We wouldn't need it if we could live it. peace & love G_j

[SharonAnn]

4. Paul Wellstone

eom

[KoKo]

6. I didn't think about that with Wellstone.....but yeah, Because

whenever there is a "lone voice" in the "wilderness" that manages to get even a small following there is hope for a better tommorrow. I sort of feel that way about Kucinich. Not that he's a "Jesus" figure, but that he is trying to tell the "truth."

And, frankly, I think Sharpton and Moseley-Braun are also trying to get to the "Jesus thing" and they aren't "Fundie" about it. Sigh.....:-(

[RBHam]

5. Jesus would be locked up if he returns to America

Radical hippie commie peacenik vile leftist rat scum!

[KoKo]

7. ain't that the truth! We would have the "parade of palms" and the

crusifix in public view for Bush and the BFEE to cheer on...saying he was in violation of the Patriot I and II acts and a "known terrorist with a history of "bi-polar" problems in that he thought he was the son of some "god person" who was brought on this earth to preach "Peace" and getting along with your fellow man." Obviously "the common man/woman wasn't important then and it isn't now.

Not when we have the "Emperor of America" just like the "regime" that was there when Jesus was born and his parents had to take a donkey and ride to get away from the "head count," to be free to have their baby.

[maveric]

11. Ashcroft would lead the crucifixion too!

Fundies like to brag that they are good christians but they seem stray away from what the man taught and was all about.

[Matilda]

14. I think the Vatican would also fail to recognise him.

What did the Jesus of the Gospels have to do with palaces and
gold and rich vestments? I don't think he would recognise much
of what he taught in the modern church, in any of its many guises.

[camero]

17. He did kick the moneychangers out of the temple

[DemBones DemBones]

20. But there was a point to building

beautiful churches and cathedrals and having great paintings and sculptures and golden chalices and so on. And that was to make the worshipers feel that entering their church was a preview of the heaven that awaited them after this earthly life, something to lift them up and give hope through life's difficulties. Art portraying Bible stories was also very important during the many centuries when few people knew how to read and even fewer could afford to own a Bible.

Worshipers in many/ most (all?) faiths have built elaborate and costly structures in which to worship and/ or structures to honor their god(s); it seems to be a human need. Think of the pyramids of the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the Incas; the elaborately sculptured Hindu and Buddhist temples and shrines, the giant sculptures of the Buddha, seen in India, Angkor Wat, China, Japan; Shinto shrines in Japan; the great shrines and mosques of Islam.

There also is a human need to say "No, this is not worship of our god, but idolatry," and to tear down the shrines and statues. Iconoclasm has a long history, following behind veneration of icons. Sadly, great works of human art and architecture are lost when the fundamentalist iconoclasts prevail, as when the Tali-ban destroyed the huge statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan, or when King Henry VIII, angry with the pope who would not allow him to divorce his first wife to marry another, declared himself head of the English church and ordered the dissolution (destruction) of monasteries and churches throughout England.

Jesus might indeed disapprove of the extravagance of St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome, but then again he might see it as a worthy descendant of the great Temple in Jerusalem. He condemned the money changers and the hypocrites within the Temple but he never suggested that the Temple itself should be torn down.

At Epiphany (January 6), we celebrate the arrival of the Magi, the three kings from "the East" who "journeyed afar" to bring gifts to honor the newborn baby who was the Incarnation of God, the baby born at Bethlehem in Judea. Two of them brought incenses (frankincense and myrrh), but the third brought gold. Nowhere is the gift of gold condemned.

Jesus told hid disciples that what they did (by extension, what we do) for the poor, for those who are hungry or thirsty, for the sick, for those in prison, they/we did/do for Him. He said that the two great commandments are "Love the Lord your God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." He cautioned against loving gold and riches more than others but never said not to honor the Lord with gold and riches.

When the woman sold all that she had to buy costly balm, which she used to anoint Jesus's feet, some of the disciples were angry and said that the money should have been used to feed the poor, Jesus said they wrong. "The poor will always be with you," Jesus said, "but I will not." We know Jesus wants us to feed the poor, but it seems that we are also to use our riches to honor
Him. The tricky part, I think, is striking a balance.

Deep thoughts on Christmas Day, before the turkey is cooked.

[Malva Zebrina]

21. I often marvel at the wonderful archetecture and art of the Renaissance

and marvel at who paid for it. :-)

Before the Renaissance though, there was something called the dark ages -- and we saw the beautiful art of the Greeks and the Romans slowly slide backwards it seems, into decay-- from beauty into stilted representations of the Byzantine, and such, throwing the acclaimed, wonderful art of those pagan societies back a thousand years.

The art of the Moors is also much ignored. http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

It also is wonderful art, but of the east and not of the west. There are great contributions from the Arabs, although hardly given a passing glance. We westerners think we got it all. :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

25. I love the Renaissance but am equally crazy about the

Byzantines and Medieval art, which I would call stylized and simplified rather than stilted. But I never see much point in comparing styles or periods of art against each other for the point of declaring a winner -- not that I'm accusing you of having done that at all. It's like one person saying orchids are the most beautiful flowers while another thinks that title belongs to daisies -- or to dandelions. Beauty is not only in the eye of the beholder but is present in many styles. Moorish or Islamic art is, as you say, very beautiful and often ignored in the West, but was that always so? I seem to remember that it influenced European artists beginning in the Middle Ages and perhaps most in the International Gothic period. In my mind, I'm seeing designs I've seen in older churches in Italy, e.g., the Cathedral in Siena, dizzying designs that seem to have a Moorish imprint. And do Byzantine mosaics relate to the tiled designs of Islamic art -- or vice versa?

You're absolutely correct that it seemed that everyone in Europe forgot all that the Greeks and Romans had learned until the Renaissance (which, of course, is why we call it the Renaissance.) But were the Dark Ages as dark as we sometimes think? Did they forget all that the Greeks and Romans knew, or were they reacting against the decadence of those civilization's latter days? Consulting only my memory, I remember that the Byzantines were very concerned with the eye as the window of the soul, and IIRC their emphasis on the soul led them to depict the human body as flat and stylized, somewhat like the Egyptians, the human body being depicted more as a symbol than a portrait.

You wrote,

I often marvel at the wonderful architecture and art of the Renaissance
and marvel at who paid for it. :-)

The question of who pays for art is an old one and an interesting one. In the Renaissance, there were fabulously wealthy patrons, most notably the Medici family in Florence, who commissioned a great deal of art both for churches and for their personal collections. Popes -- and there was a Medici pope or two -- and bishops also commissioned much art for churches. The Renaissance would not have been what it was without the patronage given to the artists of the time. It's easy to say that corrupt popes and other clergy pressured the poor to give to the Church, and that is part of the picture. But how did the Medici and Este families and the others with riches and power (the Borgias, for instance) get their money, i.e, did they help the poor or did they make their money off the poor. Both, I'd say.

Thinking about this raises tough question: Would it have been better for the Church and the rich families to give all the money they gave to art patronage to the poor instead? What is the value of art to society? And why does our US society give so little support to it? Tough questions. Italy budgets more for art than we do, I believe, and certainly it's a larger percentage of their budget. Though mostly it's for art conservation and restoration, not production of new art, they are attempting to preserve an enormous artistic heritage. Yet they also have guaranteed health care, guaranteed pensions, and unions so strong that Italian friends tell me that people typically keep one job their entire life, and rarely is a worker fired.

Thanks for the link re: Moorish art. I'll be checking out tonight if I can stop my eyes from trying to close. ;-)

Peace and visions of sugarplums!

[Malva Zebrina]

31. thanks for the well wishes

and for such a nice, pleasant to read, post. I think we can say maybe the merchants of Venice paid for a lot of it. :-) That is another fascinating aspect of the Renaissance. The merchants of Florence and of Venice, indeed, were very very busy--they emerged as a wealthy class simply by the cleverness of their business dealings--they enabled commerce like it has never before been enabled. They invented the "check" as a speedy way of payment and their harbors were bustling with ships trading goods from all over.

http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/Johnsson.pdf

[Piperay]

35. Locked up or killed

by the freepers and RW fundies.

[zeemike]

8. Who would say this today?

Anyone we know?

“ It is said in our law that a man may be executed for a capital crime, but I say to you that anyone that looks on another with hatred is in danger of the judgment.”
“We should not resist evil”
“If someone strikes you on the right cheek don’t run away but offer him the other cheek as well”
“When you pray hide in the closet. Don’t be like the hypocrites that love to be seen giving prayer in public places”
“When you give to charity don’t let anyone know it.”

Certainly no one in the Right Wing would ever utter such words and few in the liberal as well.

[KoKo]

9. In Bush's America......who would dare to say it. How the RW distorts the

message. And the "message" was very simple in it's "honoring of the common person" just to try to do "good and be honorable to your fellow man and the earth that was created. Hardly some "doctrinaire message."

Mostly his message was just plain "common sense." But, that seems to be upsetting people to this day over 2,000 years later. "Common Sense" about how one treats one's Planet and fellow Human Beings in what Jesus said was the "Family of God"....or some have said the "Family of Mankind/Womenkind!"

[zeemike]

10. Common sense is right

There is nothing complicated about the message and it is not that hard to understand…if you want to.
But to the RW it does nothing for them the way they see it. None of that increases the wealth of their portfolio.

[windansea]

12. Buddism rules n/t

[FDRrocks]

15. He's a liberal...

Yes, Jesus Christ, the supposed Son of God (and a good guy whatever he was), could not get elected in this purpoted "Christian" society.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. John Lennon wrote

"Imagine there's no heaven" "nothing to kill for, no religion too"

In fact, here are the entire lyrics to his well known tune "Imagine"

Most people do not like to imagine there is no religion--somehow it removes the notion that there is life after death and that is a very hard concept for many to work through to a logical conclusion. What was Lennon's religion? I think he did quite a bit of personal work with Buddhism.



Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,

It's easy if you try,

No hell below us,

Above us only sky,

Imagine all the people

living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,

It isnt hard to do,

Nothing to kill or die for,

No religion too,

Imagine all the people

living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,

I wonder if you can,

No need for greed or hunger,

A brotherhood of man,

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,

but Im not the only one,

I hope some day you'll join us,

And the world will live as one.

On edit

Whatever happened to the world that we have nothing left like this? Where ARE all the people? Where is art? Where is the hope that all the world will live as one--and if that is too idealistic, where are the song writers and the muscians and the wonderful well of talent , artistic talent that is at the forefront of bringing to consciousness, before we even know it, of society's woes , ills and evils? Where are all the people?

[DemBones DemBones]

26. One of my favorite songs, by my favorite Beatle.

Religion should be a brotherhood of man and you may well have hit on it that being concerned too much with life after death turns many overly literal Christians into small Christians (as in, "I went to a small Christian college, and now I'm a small Christian.") ;-)

I believe we should enjoy this life and do our best to love everyone because it's the right thing. If there's a Heaven, it'll be gravy, if there's not, we've lived well.

In answer to your comments added on edit, I think that there are as many people working for peace and love as ever -- it's just more difficult to see them or their effect in the midst of media emphasis on the evils of the world.

I just heard another Beatles song (not sure if Lennon wrote the lyrics, checked two sites and neither said) that has a somewhat religious message.


LET IT BE


When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be. Yeah
There will be an answer, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be,
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.


It speaks to me of the need for the feminine as well as the masculine in the spiritual life, seeming to refer to the Virgin Mother, Mary, and perhaps to Sophia (Wisdom) in the Book of Wisdom, who is depicted as present with the Creator when he is creating the universe. (A feminist Creator? Surely, Sophia influenced the Creation Story in Genesis in which man and woman are created at the same time, none of that business of conjuring Eve with a rib bone. Unfortunately, that story is the one which gives man dominion over animals. Notice that the fundies take Adam's rib from one story and dominion over the earth from the other -- we can do the opposite for a feminist, environmentalist Creation Story from the same Bible the fundies use.)

Disclaimers:

(Sophia and the Book of Wisdom available to Catholics in any Catholic Bible; Protestants will have to seek out this Deuterocanonical book outside the olde King James Version, though the KJV's olde language is quite beautiful. Restrictions may apply, some Protestants not being allowed to read a Catholic Bible.

Two versions of Creation Story available in the beginning of the Book of Genesis, in any and all Bibles.)

[Malva Zebrina]

30. thats a nice post DemBones

I always thought that Mother Mary was pot or some mind altering drug. But your interpretation is nice too. :-)

You know, the "fundies" as we call them, rather disrespectfully, have a "faith" also. It seems to many people they have done a lot of harm with that faith, but nevertheless they believe it as sincerely as any other person who is religion. No sense arguing "faith" with them or for that matter, anyone. That is not an argument or it is an argument that goes nowhere.

But, we can debate the facts as we read them in the bible, and we can debate the issue of separation of church and state. You know I am an atheist but I have many friends with whom I would join arms with in order to preserve that right of separation of church and state.

[KoKo]

22. And when this "Radical" Spoke out .....for the "common" he was Crucified

on a Cross. And, when we speak out for the "common good, common man, little person, average person" against the Big Business, The Politico's the Powers of the Shadow Government......what happens to us?

Who are we that when we "care" we are maligned and brought to court and the "tribunals" who see us speaking up seek to throw us in jail for what we believe about what's moral and kind and caring of humankind.

They say: You're "morality isn't ours." "Your kindness only causes subjugation of those who are lazy who want to drain our resources." "your unwillingness to support those of us who have money and want to use it for our own purposes is class warfare."

So, we will "Punish you." We who know "better than you" will RULE you and you will "die on a cross" or by "lethal injection" or by being a "serf to serve us."

So, "Radicals" don't have much chance ever...no matter how wonderful a system of Democracy we can devise.

But, without the "Radicals" I wonder if we would still have any system left to worry about who controls the "Shadow Power."

[Sugarbleus]

24. Thanks for the post KoKo

I am a Christian but no longer a "fundie". I came out of it because I could see that the onus was on prosperity too much and not nearly enough on Samaritanism. They were too busy sticking their noses into other's lives regarding gays and abortion and all sorts of non-christ centered themes. 'Are you hungry' they say, 'come to our food bank and we'll give you some canned goods and a block of cheese' Need some assistance in moving--well are you a memeber of "our" church? No? Well why don't you just call a moving company. YOu are a member of our church? Okay, we can give you one hour on Saturday at 3pm. Need an affordable house to rent? The realitors in the congregation balk because I have a section 8 voucher or because I don't go to their church. Well, wooooooohoooooooo aren't they just Christ like?!
In any case, I still believe in Christ and I'm certain He would be killed again today for blasting the greeding self righteous religious leaders of today just as He did in his own day.

http://www.liberalslikechrist.com

An interesting site with info and links to other hard-hitting sites; a strong message for the right wing religious in America.

Peace on Earth, good will toward all people
O8)

[JesusNoRepublican]

29. Did you mean "www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org" ?

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.COM doesn't work but http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.ORG does. That is a great site, Sugarbleus.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. KoKo, thanks for this thread, which has attracted

some thoughtful and interesting responses. I hope it will continue, despite the fact that I've spent too much time on it today. It fit in between the spells of cooking and the spells of eating. Tomorrow is playing with new toys and eating turkey sandwiches! :7

Merry Christmas, KoKo! And a Happy Feast of St. Stephen!

[KoKo]

32. Dem Bones, I've read your thoughtful replies and the others, Thanks!

Trying to take Jesus out of the Religious Disputes for a moment to show that there was a "simple" message there, which most of us could admire.

And, that "simple" humble message rings true throughout time, no matter what persuasion or non-persuasion one might be. At least IMHO....anyway.

Glad to see it didn't go into a "flame war."

[BuelahWitch]

28. The Discovery Channel had a great program on Jesus last night

It spoke about all you said and used new information gleaned from the Dead Sea Scrolls to back it up. Went on to say that Jesus healed the sick so that they could take part in their religion because the priests were keeping them out. One of the historians on the program called Jesus a "barrier breaker," then added, "The only thing with breaking barriers is that they often crush you when they fall."

I don't think much of the Xtian church today follows the teachings of Christ. If they did the world would be a much better place..

[KoKo]

33. classic....I'm looking for the repeat of History Channel Missing Books

of the Bible. Many DU'ers seemed to think it was worth a view.

And, yes, I think many so-called Christians have "distorted and mis-used" the very simple message. And I think that others have tried to bring the "message" back. I thought about MLK, Wellstone, John Lennon, Ghandi and so many who have been "crucified" by asassination or villification through time (so many, who could name all the martyrs through the over 2,000 years!) I would even put in the "Legend of Robin Hood and King Arthur, for those of us of Celtic/Anglo-Saxon origins.

And, Buddists and Mohammed, and others.......