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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:28 PM
Original message
Question about the obesity discussion:
Would someone explain to me how it is possible to gain more weight than that of the food one eats? Do some people get fat from some strange kind of osmosis...from sunlight, air, high-calorie water or butter-flavored TV commercials?

What mysterious concantenation of physics allows a human to increase its mass beyond the amount ingested through the normal digestive process?

I have no quarrel with fat people unless they revert to the Rush Limbaugh 'defense'. It is physically impossible to gain more weight than what you stuff down your throat.

If anyone doubts this obvious truism, consider: how exactly could one get obese if they ate nothing at all?

My comments are based on other threads here, and the dilemma of my own sister who is fat as a pig, eats like one, and blames her largeness on various 'genetic', 'hormonal', and/or 'gladular' problems. All of which are pure bullshit.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. i think it has to do with
the chemicals in food, and how your body converts it, other than that, i have been on the atkins diet and lost 45 lbs
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Huh?
You'd starve if you ate nothing at all. Am I missing something here?

:shrug:
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. No you are not missing something. It is precisely my POINT!
You cannot 'starve' as long as you have internal reserves of caloric sources (fat.)
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Even if someone is very obese, if they simply stop eating

although they will eventually lose weight, they may take longer to lose the weight than they would if they ate foods lower in fat and calories and became more physically active.

When someone stops eating, the body slows down. It does use those fat stores, but not in the same way that it would use food. It does not get all the things it needs. A fat person who stops eating, just like a thin person who stops eating, will soon be unable to do very much. Even though the fat person has more fat stores, the body will use those stores to keep the person alive, not to keep the person healthy and functional.

People who "fast" (stop eating any food at all) are encouraged to be sure to take nutritional supplements and/or fruit and vegetable juices to avoid health problems.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. If you eat more calories than you burn you gain weight.
If you eat fewer calories than you burn you lose weight.
Try keeping track of calories and if you drink a coke a day, try not drinking it for 2 months. You will lose some weight, if you keep everything else the same.
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PissedOffPollyana Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
98. You speak the truth.
Metabolism is the key in taking off extra weight and keeping it off.

Many people make the bad link between starving oneself and a sensible diet and inadvertantly subvert their progress by depriving the one thing that can get them to where they want to be. I blame the diet industry and those who look with a bit too much distain upon overweight people and just say "eat less". I prefer, "just eat better" and focus on taking in lots of fresh vegetables and maintain an overall diet based in reasonable moderation. Besides, it's easier to maintain than a strict regimen or starving oneself and relying on pills & powders. But, if everyone thought like this, the very well-off diet/weight-loss industry wouldn't stand a chance.

Fortunately for them, millions of people listen to their want to be thin as fast as possible.

FWIW, I am virtually the only one who has escaped the family curse of being overweight or obese. Most every family member over 50 has diabetes, which is a pretty damn good inspiration to stay fit.

Oh and BTW,
sex = the world's most perfect exercise
Working out is fun, fun, fun!
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow-talk about lack of empathy
It is not as simple as you describe. There have been many studies about how additives in food and brain chemicals cause people to hold on to their fat stores. Thyroid disease is one of the most common reasons for obesity and it is often not diagnosed.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No. "Fat stores" will be burned off with activity. They will go away if
the person cuts down on the intake of calories. All these excuses are crap. You can not violate the laws of thermodynamics in an effort to rationalize gluttony. I do NOT mean to be un-empathetic, I know how much obese people are mistreated, but I also know there is no possible way to become overweight without consuming more calories than can be oxidized.

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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Not true.
I gained 50 lbs in two years and worked out HARD 5 times a week. This included weight training, kickboxing and cycling. My calorie intake was mostly from fruits, vegetables, whole grains and lean meats and fish. I come from a thin family-no one in my family is more than 10 or 15 lbs overweight.

So what happened? My thyroid went haywire. I now take Levoxyl and am close to my ideal weight.

Something similar happened to my younger sister. She was diagnosed with Celiac Disease, which is an allergy to gluten and wheat products. She gained a ton of weight too. When she cut wheat out of her diet, she lost weight. She was a vegetarian who did not eat a lot of calories and she was a competitive swimmer.

If you don't have access to good healthcare-which most poor folks don't-you often don't get diagnosed with food allergies.
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. I don't disagree
with your experience, or that of your sister. I was simply making a statement from my experience.

Although we occasionally see women with problems as you describe, the norm is a woman with terrible eating habits who lives a life of inactivity and who, although poor, has better health care than my middle class family.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
73. "although poor, has better health care..."
Unless your family goes WITHOUT medical care, that statement you made is an outright lie. For some reason you believe that poor people have access to quality healthcare, including preventative care and alternative & experimental treatments, at the expense of hardworking, put upon people like you. You're delusional, and you're making hyperbolic claims because of your delusional state. Stop it.
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #73
79. I have to pay for my own health care
unlike many others. We have a high deductable <$2500> and pay for most things out of our pocket. And being business owners, we pay a high rate of taxation to subsidize the healthcare of others.

So like I said, most of the poor women we see have better healthcare than we do. And they pay little or nothing for it.
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PissedOffPollyana Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
100. I can attest to that as well
At one point, I kept gaining weight no matter what I did. Being as I had no health insurance, the only solution was to experiment. It turned out that most dairy products made me blow up like a frig'n balloon. So long as they were taken in in small amounts per day, everything else was fine.

I am of the mind that we all have particular foods that break down and are used better by our bodies. For instance, I can eat all the rice, pasta and bread I want while others can barely look at carbs without gaining weight. It can be personal chemistry, allergies or inherited from the diets of our ancestors. Either way, optimum diet is not a "one size fits all" proposition.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. some diet foods actually make you gain weight
the worst being that artificial sweetener that is used in most soda pop. According to a medical expert I know, about 60% of Americans are carbohydrate sensitive, and eating foods high in carbs can cause weight gain.

Some people who have hypothyroidism can gain weight eating next to nothing. When one has hypothryroidism, one often doesn't have the energy or strength to exercise as much as is needed to change one's metabolism.

Personally, I have been termed 'overweight' much of my life. I have been on every diet imaginable and have exercised a lot. In my particular case, simply decreasing calories and increasing activity did not work for long term weight loss. I found that the diagnosis of my thyroid condition plus a diet tailored specifically to me has helped me maintain my health.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. The Atkins diet shows it's not just about calories
On the atkins diet you can eat all the bacon and butter and meat you want -- caloric intake through the roof -- and you'll lose weight.

It's weird. It doesn't seem to make sense. But you feel your metabolism go through a drastic change when you start the diet.

There is a theory that if you cut fat from your diet, your body will sense that there's a deprivation of fat so it will actually RETAIN fat at that point. It will conserve fat to make up for the lack of fat.

I have no idea why the Atkins diet works, but it does.

But I share a lot of your view -- the reason most people are fat is because they eat too damn much and they eat crap.

I went to Springfield Illinois a while back and I was appalled at how fat everybody was. Then I noticed they all seemed to eat at Steak N Shake and fast food joints like that. Ugh.

Oh, but drink a "diet" cola, and you'll lose weight! Not. Fat people drink diet soft drinks like they think it will magically make them shed pounds because the word "diet" is on the can.

A lot of people are just ignorant.

Then there's people who can't seem to lose weight even if they eat almost nothing.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. That's a common misconception about Atkins
Although he never actually SAYS it in his book, you still have to watch the number of calories you eat.

Just trust me on this one ;-)
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. There was a study recently with three control groups
the first was on a traditional low-fat diet, the second on Atkins with a 2,500 calorie limit, and the Atkins diet with unlimited calories. The Atkins limited calorie group lost 25 lbs, the Atkins unlimited calorie group lost 22 and the low-fat group lost 16! I will try to find a link-it was on one of our local news health segments about a month ago.

It illustrates what BS low-fat foods really are. Low fat often means high-carb which is where most Americans get in trouble.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #56
69. uh ... I'd like to trust you but my personal experience says otherwise
unless your metabolism is such that ATkins doesn't work for you.

My wife was one of these. She gained weight on Atkins.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
149. The thing about Adkins....
... is that if you adhere to the diet you don't want to eat that much.

I'm not overweight but have tried the Adkins diet to lower my bodyfat percentage (pure vanity, I know :))

It is not an easy diet to stay on IMHO.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. The weight of the food is not so related to the weight gained

For instance, you could eat several pounds of vegetables or fruits that contain a lot of water and few calories and little fat, and lose weight, but eating only a few ounces of a food high in fat in calories could cause you to gain weight!

Vigorous physical activity like shoveling snow or running burn more calories than studying or doing office work, so people who are more physically active may gain less weight than someone who eats the exact same thing but works long hours as a computer programmer.

Individual body metabolism can also be a factor. Some people will take longer to burn off food than others, even if both eat the same thing, and engage in the same activities.

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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Yes, I understand your point, but the caloric values of various foods
does not negate the obvious - that no matter what the chemical composition of the ingested items may be, it is physically impossible for an organism to increase its mass beyond what is gained by ingesting...anything. Of course, the 'instantaneous' result does depend on that composition, if you drink a gallon of water, it will be gone soon, assuming your kidneys work reasonably well...if you drink a gallon of veg oil (yecch), a lot of it will 'stay with you' much longer...but my comments are more directed to an ongoing situation rather than a two day one.

Back to my original, I spent a week with my sis last month. She eats what I am (educatedly) guessing about 2500 calories a day, and doesn't think it's excessive. I do. The most strenuous thing she does is turning the key to start the car to get to McDonalds or the donut shop.

The other day I saw a short segment of some TV show with fat kids, one was like 3 years old and weighed 150 lb. Something like that. It's
IMPOSSIBLE for something like that to happen unless somebody is stuffing bucketfuls of fat crap down the kid's mouth. Anybody wants to whine to me about this, feel free, I have no fucking sympathy.

We are what we eat.
(I'm 61 years old, weigh 170, 5-11 high and I eat when I'm hungry)



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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Another factor
that may be one reason you are concerned about your sister is genetics. If the majority of your grandparents are overweight, it is more likely that you will be overweight as well. If everyone in your family but her is thin, you have a right to be worried and concerned. Unfortunately, if she isn't concerned it may take something like varicose veins, adult onset diabetes (which can happen to thin people too-my husband is positively skinny yet was recently diagnosed with it-genetics again), or a heart attack for her to wake up.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. it's not impossible
does not negate the obvious - that no matter what the chemical composition of the ingested items may be, it is physically impossible for an organism to increase its mass beyond what is gained by ingesting...anything

that's not quite true. plants are organisms, and they do in fact gain mass by absorbing carbon from air, energy from sunlight, and oxygen from water. you can say that people are not plants, but the fact remains that a person can gain weight by drinking water. also, if you think about it scientifically there's nothing impossible about a person gaining more weight than the weight of the food s/he eats. you can think of food as being a combination of chemicals, that can react with air and water. the total weight in the end can be more than the weight of the food.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. Yes, it is.
And you don't permanently gain weight from water; when you excrete it in your urine, you lose it.

The issue is that some foods "leave" more weight behind than others. A doughnut--very high in carbs, no fiber--leaves its weight behind; is turned into glucose, then stored as fat. A carrot doesn't--the water and fiber in it leave your body.

Fast food is notoriously calorically dense. Very little bulk for the amount of calories--so you eat more in order to feel full.

Another problem is appetite. People who have never had the urge to eat more than they need (1800-2200 calories day) don't understand what it is like to crave foods. It appears that high carb/low fiber foods throw our appetites out of whack. Eating the sugar spikes blood sugar, which causes our bodies to dump an extra load of insulin, which then brings our blood sugar too low, so we feel hungy and crave more sugar.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
42. "I eat when I'm Hungry"
Well, bully for YOU, Karl. Care to share how many calories a day you "stuff down your throat"?

Good thing I didn't read your further responses before I posted my first reply. I'd probably given you a smart-ass answer in the first one. You thesis sucks donkey dicks because you are using ONLY "gotta burn more than you eat" with no other factors considered.

BTW, at 5'11" and 170, your Body Mass Index is 24, which knock-knock-knockin' on overweight's door.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Unfortunately
his problems are much deeper than simply knock-knock-knockin' on overweight's door.

People with control/food issues often turn a deaf ear to any other theories that cause obesity, because to them the fat person represents the fear of losing control. You are better off being overweight than dealing with the myriad of issues that arise from this illness. There are plenty of examples on this thread.

Sorry to hear about your diabetes, BiggJawn. Good luck!
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #42
72. well said
BiggJawn well said.
Scott
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. you may not be fat...
but you do suffer from other "problems" that a majority here seem to find offensive....

What say we tax some of the problems you seem to be exhibiting....

Or do you need some more time to feel superior today?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
139. Bully for you. I'm the weight I'm supposed to be, too, BUT
my cholesterol and lipids are high DESPITE medication because of the natural process of diabetes (I've been insulin-dependent since age 7).

Let's take a look at your blood values before you judge others so harshly.



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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Okay, here's your quote
"Individual body metabolism can also be a factor. Some people will take longer to burn off food than others, even if both eat the same thing, and engage in the same activities."
------------------------------------------------

That is exactly correct! The operative part is of course, "longer to burn off food..."

If it takes longer, it only makes sense to WAIT LONGER before eating MORE.

I drive a Honda that gets about 39 MPG. I don't fill the thing up after every 10 mile drive. (Not, admittedly the world's greatest analogy, but I think it somewhat makes the point...)

I have a number of obese friends. I do not hate, despise or insult them, but I do observe that they all adhere to a regimen of "three squares a day" that provide WAY more 'nourishment' than they actually need. Result: fat. Unhealthy. Unattractive to many. Even, in some cases, self-loathing. I don't think it is a good thing.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. They might have better luck eating 6 little meals

When you wait longer to eat, your body thinks there is a famine, so it slows down and holds on longer to whatever you ate last.

When I say 6 meals, remember a meal could be an apple or an orange or a carrot :)
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PissedOffPollyana Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #36
103. Right again.
Eating smaller amounts more often is far better for the system and really helps in weight maintenance. Also, the timing of meals is important too.

If the biggest meals are eaten early, with lots of nutrition-packed foods, it results (at least for me) in a much higher energy level through the day and a higher overall metabolism. We need far less fuel for sleep, so why eat so much only hours before turning in? We generally cook a solid meal at night, eat only a little & save the rest for tomorrow's lunch. This way we get to enjoy cooking together and not pack on too many lbs. from it.

When I follow the US meal model and eat a big meal late, like at dinner time, I tend to be slowed down and wake up feeling bogged down and lethargic anyway.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Karl, I'm a Diabetic.
The body is very in-efficient at converting fat to Glycogen, which is what muscles and brain tissue run on.

If I don't eat carbohydrate regularly, my body starts to shut down. No, I don't get the urge to "floor it" and run every stop sign in the county like Janklow, Getting the shakes and fainting is more like it. I eat maybe 4-5 times a day. But the TOTAL intake is STILL around 2000 calories.

If you'd like to honestly learn something from us, I'd suggest you STOW the "I'm not fat, why are others? I know! they STUFF themselves!" bullshit and open your mind.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
138. You're overweight, KS is egotistical, I'm vain.
Karl, how is your lack of tolerance for anyone who disagrees with you any better than obesity, regarless of the cause?

I admit to my faults and am way more tolerant of the vices of others because of it.


This issue is WAAAAAYYYY too complicated for this forum.
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have years of experience in the weight loss business
although I don't consider myself an expert.

The thing that many people don't understand is that their metabolism can fluctuate depending on one's lifestyle.

Your metablolism is based on the amount of lean muscle in your body, the way you eat and the frequency and intensity of your excercise.

In short, I see a lot of women who keep putting on weight even though their caloric intake is relatively low. But they lead sedimentary lives and eat infrequent large meals made of high fat foods and carbohydrates that are high in sugar or white flour.

Thus, they are killing themselves with their diet and lack of excercise, even though they may be eating less calories than the woman next to them.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Thank you for supporting my contention. And welcome to DU!
:D
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Well, he/she sort of supported it...and sort of didn't...
Edited on Tue Dec-23-03 06:55 PM by Enraged_Ape
Weight gain/loss is not a strict "conservation of mass" issue. The conservation of mass only applies in a closed system, and eating is not such a system.

Adipose tissue (i.e., body fat) also contains a certain amount of water. If you gain adipose tissue through eating more calories than you burn (the metabolism thing), then you find yourself retaining more water, which could theoretically make you gain more weight than you eat (although probably not substantially more).

But it is true that certain people can eat very little and gain a lot of weight. This is because their metabolisms do not burn as much fat as other people might for a comparable amount of activity. A pound of fat "weighs" 3,500 kilocalories regardless of a person's metabolism, so if that person can use a bigger chunk of that through sustained aerobic exercise or because they have a naturally higher metabolism, it's that much less that will go on their bodies.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Again, not true
I have been athletic my whole life. See my response #9.

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woofless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Are you with me Dr. Wu?
Are you really just a shadow of the man that we once knew?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
49. Dr. Wu, people can be sedentary but only ROCKS are sedimentary.


Welcome to DU, Dr. Wu! :hi:
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #49
80. Thank you
sedentary vs. sedimentary
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
74. "sedimentary lives"???
Oh' you mean SEDENTARY?
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Dr. Wu Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #74
81. Yes
.... uggghhh!
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #74
114. LOL...
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
154. Activity does play a large role
I eat probably about 2000 calories a day (more if it's a party day...I have a few of these a week). I'm 5'1 and 110lbs of most muscle. In fact since the beginning of the summer, I lost around 15 lbs. I figured out what it was. I am really active. I work full-time at a store where I do mostly stock. I am constantly moving and constantly lifting very heavy boxes. It's not uncommon for me to have to carry like 60lbs of something across the store. I'm sure if I sat around all day, then I couldn't continue eating basically whatever I want and drinking on a very regular basis. Also, muscle helps with metabolism. If I was a pudgy 110lbs then I'd probably not be able to continue this way. Mind you, the food I eat is healthy though, since I work at a health food store.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. I have known a couple of slim foxy women who got a flu like c;ondition
then gained 150 pounds, without eating much at all, and cant lose any of it... ???
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. That is impossible.
:eyes:
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
54. how would you know, Karl? Are you a doctor?
your arrogance on this subject is a little off-putting.

Glandular conditions can lead to massive weight gains or loss.

Estrogen alone will make you gain weight. That's a very simple fact known to every pre-med student
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. Your Body combines water with the food to make fat.
Thus any weight gain is NOT only the weight of the food but the weight of the WATER used by your body to store the energy of the food (Generally as Fat). Thus if you intake one pound of Food, but that food combines one pound of water to convert it to fat, you gain TWO POUNDS.

Remember WATER is used by your body not only to COOL the body but to convert food inputs into fat AND to convert Fat into energy. This is why you can survive up to 30 days without food, but only three days without water.

Another factor is Oxygen, which is also used by your body in the process of of converting food into fat and fat into energy. While oxygen does not add as much weight was water does in the energy transformation, it can increase your weight, as the Oxygen combines with Water and the food to become fat. Minor compared to actual food intake and water intake but can be a factor.

Thus calorie counting (for that is the ENERGY count of the food you take in) is a more accurate measure of how much weight you will gain from eating food, than the weight of the food (Calorie is a unit of energy, and what you are doing can also be measured in terms of calories).

Thus calorie counting (both as input i.e. food and outputs, exercise) is a better measure of potential weight gain or loss than the weight of food you are eating.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Right, but I think Karl's point was,
Edited on Tue Dec-23-03 07:21 PM by Snow
it's illegal in the State of Physics to gain more weight than the weight of what you eat.

We've been having a slow discussion about this in the health forum. I offered the thought from an epidemiologist's perspective that our understanding of the etiology of obesity is very poor. In good part, this is because we in medicine think we already understand it - someone eats too much & doesn't eat enough; they get fat. But that really doesn't cover things very well. How come some people get morbidly obese, how come some people stay skinny regardless of intake, and so on. There's also the whole thing of visceral fat and cutaneous fat, and what does all that seratonin do in the abdomin? I repeat - we really have very poor understanding of the causes. For instance, like Rational Rose, I have hypothryoidism - but 50 lbs weight gain? Never! I maybe put on 15lbs, tops, and have since taken off about 10 of that. Mostly I got a hoarse voice and itchy skin. I do not exercise, HARD, 5 times a week, either. So, go figure. Like I may have mentioned, we really don't understand it, but most of the research money and effort goes into education, treatment, and the like. Most of which doesn't work very well, because, and I may have mentioned this, we really don't understand the causes of obesity.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Human beings don't always conform to nice, neat scientific diagnosis
50 lbs. And I was tired all the time, losing hair in clumps, and you're totally right about the itching, Snow! All this with BP of 110/60 and a resting pulse of 55. So I was still fit despite the fat.

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Well, I thought I was, too,
in fact when I started on hormone and we were titrating the dose, I first went hyper for a while, gaining total sympathy for my wife's hot flashes, then as the thyroid threw up its little hands and resigned completely, I went really hypo - and guess what a main symptom of hypo is? Low pulse rate. I was walking around thinking, "wow, I don't work out that much and I have a pulse of 48. Not bad." Well, my endocrinologist disabused me of that notion. In fact, my pulse is a good way to make sure I'm getting the right dose.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. "losing hair in clumps"?????
Like enough every morning in the tub strainer to clog the shower drain?

I'd better have this new doctor poke, prod, and test me thoroughly...
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. It's a symptom of hypothyroidism
I killed a vacuum with my hair and couldn't blame the pets x(

It took them a while to get my Levoxyl dosage right, and now everything is fine-in other words, the vacuum is fine and there are no extravagant plumbing bills.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. How do the outer third of your eyebrows look?
if they aren't so bushy any more, there's another symptom. But you really don't need to listen to us; quick blood test will nail. We probably oughta make a habit of regular thyroid screening along with cholesterol.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Cholesterol often rises if your thyroid is out of whack
that was another clue-mine went up to 200-it had always hovered around 140.

Have your doctor do thorough blood tests!
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. What outer third?
man, when did they get so small?

OK, I thought there might be something wrong here....
Gee, get a full check-up, or just quit "Shoving shit down my cake-hole" like Dr. Karl says?
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Ooops. Well, um, that sorta nails it, doesn't it Jawn - and your pulse
is nice and slow because you work out? Well, it's nice to have a diagnosis, my friend. Make sure the doc knows what she's doing and checks the antibodies, the TSH, the T3 and the T4. Then you gotta titrate the dose, and that'll take a few months, but you'll get there.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
67. BiggJawn...
One more thing to freak you out: How do your fingernails look? Hypothyroidism often causes the little pale "half-moons" at the base of your nails to recede, or disappear altogether.

Mine are just starting to come back, after many months of self-treatment (and self-diagnosis), thanks to no health insurance and no money.

Oh -- and how's your throat? Any hoarseness? Feel anything on either side, right at the base?

So, yeah, if you've got the means, definitely get checked out. I would specifically ask for a thyroid test -- or two, if the first one shows nothing unusual.

P.S. I'm no doctor, but adding a lot of seaweed and shitake mushrooms, among other things, to my diet has really helped the visible symptoms.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #67
77. No, just the hair going away...
Half-moons a manicurist would kill for and I think I have a very nice voice (2 Oct-plus range)

But I *WILL* get a complete work-up. I'm 46 and have never had a PSA, nor a hemocult in over 10 years. Guess my last doctor didn't have any pills that made him $$$ for those condx....

I'll get to the bottom of this....
Thanx for all the support, Friends!
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #77
95. More free advice (take it for what it's worth)
I wouldn't worry too much about the two cancer tests (the PSA & the hemoccult). Get them if you like; don't feel guilty if you don't. They have a high rate of false positives, then following up on the false positive is a pain in the sensitive areas. Also, we really don't have a good treatment for prostate cancer - sometimes what we do works, but more often the patients die from other causes first. And you're young enough that neither of those diseases is a major concern. So go ahead & get them if you like, but your major concern has to be your risk for cardiovascular disease. With both diabetes and hypothyroidism, you've really got a double whammy. Someone was going on about how exercise didn't save Jim Fixx, but what really killed Jim Fixx was his own denial - his father had died young from CVD, Fixx knew he had cholesterol problems, and he did nothing about them - this was in the pre-statin days but he could've done something other than thinking he could beat it with running only. At autopsy, he had advanced cardiovascular disease. So hang in there; the next few months will be a pain in the neck as you get meds and diet adjusted, but it can be done, and you'll come out the other end a lot healthier.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. That was me invoking Fixx.
Along the lines of "Eat Right, Exercise, Die anyway."
No history of CVD, My doctor just said "Mmmm-hmmmm" when I asked if I should exercise (and said "No fooling?" when I told him what I was doing)Perhaps a stress-test is in order. But I've already pushed myself to 186 BPM and survived it (climbed the damn hill, too!)

Just wanna keep the diabetes controlled and start getting this weight off. I suspect I've gotten "McMedicine" and I'm hoping my new doctor is more into healthy patienta than free trips to Bermuda...
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. Yeah, but you see, you've got a lot of nasty risk factors coming at you...
especially for lipids - cholesterol
1. diabetes
2. thyroid taking early retirement
3. using thiazides for bp (your doc did mention that thiazides can raise cholesterol, didn't he? If not, yet another reason to switch)

My guess is your next doc will want to put you on statins, since those are really popular right now. I'd go with it, because they (statins) actually appear to be pretty damn good drugs - low side-effects, do all kinds of good things for you. I haven't joined the put-it-in-the-water-supply crowd yet, but those are very nice meds. Also, did you say you are on a beta-blocker as well? Check with your doc on that as well, since those lower your pulse, & if you're hypothyroid your pulse doesn't need more lowering. Good luck, BiggJawn, this is going to be a busy 4-6 months in front of you. Keep in touch.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #111
119. Yeah, it don't look good right now, but....
My lipids were checked a year ago, and they were borderline. Probably higher this year.
Uh, did my doc mention that Thiazide raises lipids? Hell, no, he didn't . didn't mention that it can exacerbate insulin insensitivity, either. I read a typical 5% raise in lipid levels.

No beta-blocker. Calcium-Channel blockers work for me and I tolerate them extremely well. After 3 years of asking he finally put me on one. ("C'mon, lets try Calan for a month,. what's it gonna hurt?")

don't count my thyroid down for the KO yet. Let's see what testing shows. Could be something else, like MS, y'know...

Thanks for the advice, and I'll keep you posted.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #111
120. Statins? Benign? Since When?
I thought the risk of myopathy/rhabdomyolysis and liver dysfunction was a risk with statins, particularly in diabetics taking Actos or gembrofizal (as hypertriglyceridemia is often seen in diabetics and/or those with kidney disease).
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. Benign is phrasing it a little stronger than what I said......
but comparatively good side-effect profile is accurate. The risks you point out are there, but they occur infrequently enough compared to the benefits that this is a very good med. Considerably better than, say, acetominophen, which has one of the lowest ranges of theraputic to toxic dose on the market, or non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs) which cause as many deaths per year from gastro-intestinal bleeds as we have from AIDS. Not to downplay AIDS in any way, but the benign NSAIDs we use all the time for arthritis etc really do cause some serious problems including deaths. In part, that's because we use so much - widespread use means you see the rare side-effects more commonly.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. I have been on Satins for over 15 years
Edited on Thu Dec-25-03 06:48 PM by happyslug
I was on Lopid for about ten years, and I have been on Lipitor (80mg) for about five years.

I have had no problem with my Liver, the only side affects I have noticed have been I sleep less (I use to sleep about 8-9 hours per day, I now sleep 7-8 hours per day), lower libido (I am single with no wife/girl friend to keep happy, so it is at present a "minor problem).

I have notice that when the weather changes I have a tough time getting out of bed, and I remember more of my dreams than I use to (i.e. I do not sleep as deep as I use to).

Other than the above I have NOT notice any side affects. Now I did gain some weight using the Satins, but I blame that at having to give up diet sodas. When I was using Lopid and diet drinks I notice a decline in my mental health (Mostly increase neavousness with occansional vitigo). I always had a such problems (even before I started using satins) but it was a every six month or longer between incidents (almost always vitago). While on Lopid I noticed the affect on ho my head felt and that was EVERY Day (till I cut out all the Diet drinks).

I blame the mental affects on the NutraSweet which either the Lopid made worse OR the reduction of my Cholesterol made worse (i.e. the High Cholesterol covered up the previous affects of the NutraSweet).

Now (Except for the drop in the Libido) what I am calling a side affect of the Satin just may be my body finally reacting normally, given that my Cholesterol is now nearing normal. This is how I view these side affects and I have had them over the last 15 years (I also no longer have the Angina I had from my early 20s till I started the Lopid, another side affect of the satin).

Yes, I am on 80 mg of Lipitor, the starting amount is 10 mg, but when I first went to my doctor it was because of a collection of little bumps on my elbows. I remember the interview today, he looked at the one elbow and mentioned the possibility of some mite (I had been in the Army) than I told him about the other elbow being the same and he asked my about my knees and I told him nothing on them. He than sent me for tests. My Cholesterol was 800, Triglycerides 540. He started my on Lopid, and about five years ago put me on Lipitor.

My last test show my cholesterol back up to 260 (it had been at 210) he gave me Zetia to supplement the Lipitor. I Blame this on a drop in my biking over the last 2-3 months, as soon as the weather breaks I plan to re-start (I do biking the winter but only 2-3 miles a day, not the 10-20 additional miles I was doing the Summer, 2-3 days a week)

My point here is while I have had some side affects from the Satin, I have NOT had any problem with my liver or any other side affects that would cause me to stop taking the Satin.

Please note I am NOT a diabetic, or suffer from any other medical problem than high cholestrol, thus I can only say that as a non-diabetic the Statins have not harmed me.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
151. While I agree with karl...
...basically - i.e. you cannot breathe in calories, you have to consume them - I agree with you also, the story is just not that simple.

Various physical conditions can conspire to add weight that otherwise would not be there. (In other words, make you *really* calorie efficient) Certain conditions can make you hold water, a lot of water. Other conditions can just screw up your metabolism to the point that you are running on very little fuel.

So, there are two issues for an overweight person to address. One is the diet/exercise matrix, and the other is any underlying health issues that need to be addressed.

But, eating appropriately and eating less and exercising more might not bring immediate results, but over the long term it will. Medical problems can mostly be addresses by a family doctor. Thyroid is certainly the most common, and every family dr is familiar with it and it's diagnosis and treatment.

I don't believe in picking on people who are fat. I just don't want to hear the "nothing I can do" argument because it is simply not true.

I spent most of my adult life as a painfully skinny man, and I can tell you that I suffered the same sorts of discrimination overwieght people do. When I finally figured out how to put on 40 lbs of muscle, I was kicking myself in the ass for waiting so long to do it :)
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Yes, you have grasped my point, made in the realm of practical physics
I think you mis-typed this:

"someone eats too much & doesn't eat enough; they get fat. But that really doesn't cover things..."
----------------------------------

I think you meant to write "...eats too much & doesn't exercise enough..."

-----------------------------------
Anyway, having engineered this brouhaha, I can't help coming back to the original proposition: How is it possible to become overweight (whatever that really means) without overeating? There are obviously many rationales for the behavior, but those do not address the result. God knows (if she's paying attention) that I have my own peccadilloes, I do drink too much on occasion and smoke, but I don't place any blame for those putative failings on anyone but my own determination to do what I want to do. Now I will stop babbling. ;-)

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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Yes, you caught my typo; thanks....that;'s what I meant....
anyway, following up on the brouhahaha, you are correct that you can't gain more weight than you eat, and I think the sum of what people have been saying is, some people gain more from the same weight of the same food than other people. So to some degree, you're right; part of the problem is overeating, by which I mean (and I think you do too) higher intake of energy than output. But the other part of the problem, which I think the majority of posters have focused on, I suspect with the intent of arguing your point, is the question of differential utilization of the energy intake. And that's a very poorly understood matter. Whether it lies at the heart of the obesity question I don't know, but it's right up there. Nobody, by the way, has said anything about the appetite thing, which also should be mentioned IMHO. Why do some people develop or have voracious insatiable appetites? To what degree is that controllable? I think that's part of the whole visceral serotonin question, which in my opinion as someone who's interested in neuroendocrinology, is really interesting. What's that neurotransmitter doing down there in the gut? Does it have anything to do with those abdominal nerve plexuses (plexi?), or maybe with the omentum, which secretes quite a lot of adrenaline independently of the adrenal glands? What happens if you give people a drug that blocks serotonin reuptake? (that's prozac, guys). Anyway, lots of interesting questions out there. Anyone wanna do a PhD under my supervision, here's your topic. Funding might be a toughie, though.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. My point was weight gain is more than food intake
A very high calorie food input (i.e. Fat or sugar) still has to be precessed by the body and that is with water. People who starved themselves to loss weight actually lose a good bit of weight in the first week, but that is mostly water loss as your body adjusts to no calorie intake.

The reverse also occurs, when a person quit starving themselves, a rapid weight gain occurs, again mostly water as your body adjusts to processing food again (and one of the rules of Surviving in the wilderness if lost, do NOT eat unless you have water. If you eat, your body will process the food using the water in your body. This accelerates dehydration. Thus you have to replace that water. If you have no water to drink, you will dehydrates quicker than the person who eats nothing. WATER is a major factor is any procesing of food and any gain or loss or weight do to that food input).

Thus it is possible for a person to gain weight from food than the food itself weighs. That is the ONLY point I was trying to make, that it is POSSIBLE for people to gain more weight than the weight of their food inputs (Because the storage of such food involves the storeage of water). Thus just WEIGHING the input food is NOT an accurate way to determine how much weight you will gain (or lose) from eating that amount of food.

Calorie input and output is more accurate measure of how the food input will affect a persons weight gain (or loss). That is the only point I was trying to make. The Weight of WATER used is a major factor is any weight gain (or loss).

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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Yes, of course. One calorie is the amount of energy required to raise
the temperature of one gram of pure water by one degree Celsius. (Phys 101)

What I am trying to convey is that, whatever the ingredients of food somebody eats, EVEN IF IT WERE 100% CALORIC (pure fat as close example)
it is not possible for a person (or anything else that eats) to increase their own mass by more than that ingested. And by the way, oxygen doesn't normally combine with water without some fairly sophisticated processes not found in the human body. You can buy H2O2 in the store but it didn't come out of someone's intestines.
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
82. umm, perhaps you would benefit from a basic review of
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 06:57 AM by treepig
the fundamental metabolic processes that occur in each cell of your body . . .

for example, here's the summary of how a cell harvests useable energy from sugars:

1. Glycolysis. There is no net gain or loss of water in this pathway. All six oxygen atoms from glucose are still present in the two pyruvate molecules produced after 10 enzymatic steps. 4 hydrogen atoms have been removed in the production of 2 NADH and the release of 2H+ ions (we will see their fate later).

2. Citric Acid Cycle. Three molecules of water are consumed for every pyruvate that is converted to 3 CO2 (or 6 molecules of water per glucose) as follows: (i) A water is added as pyruvate is converted first to acetyl CoA and then to citrate (note the gain of an oxygen atom); (ii) a second water is added as alpha-ketoglutarate is converted first to succinyl CoA and then to succinate (note the gain of another oxygen atom); (iii) a third water is added as fumarate is converted to malate.

3. Following the complete oxidation of glucose to 6 carbon dioxide by the combination of glycolysis and citric acid cycle, there are 10 NADH and 2 FADH2 produced per glucose. Each reduced electron carrier carries two electrons. The transfer of these 12 pairs of electrons to 6 oxygen molecules in the respiratory chain results in the formation of 12 water molecules.


during the formation of water from molecular oxygen, hydrogen peroxide is often produced as an unintended side product - so often, in fact, the body makes an enzyme (superoxide dismutase) to protect cells from this harmful compound. in other cases, cells deliberately make large amounts of hydrogen peroxide for useful purposes, such as

1. The cells of the thyroid gland must make hydrogen peroxide in order to attach iodine atoms to thyroglobulin in the synthesis of thyroxine.

2. Macrophages and neutrophils must generate ROS in order to kill some types of bacteria that they engulf by phagocytosis.

3. Neutrophils (but not macrophages) also kill off engulfed pathogens by using the enzyme myeloperoxidase which catalyzes the reaction of hydrogen peroxide

see the following site for more details:
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/...

it would seem that cells are just a bit more sophisticated than you give them credit for . . .



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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
83. You don't read too good, do ya, Karl?
And BTW, a food Calorie is a thousand calories, physics man.

Read posts #12 and #17. You are misusing (or more likely, misunderstanding) the law of conservation of mass. You are grossly oversimplifying the biochemistry of weight gain.
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oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Check this out
This study might answer some of your questions: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/obesity... .
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. I liked the last sentence in that report
"In females, they also appear to stimulate the production of the sex hormones estrogen and progesterone, which in turn trigger the release of more weight-gain peptides in the brain".

It has been known for years that just before a woman's first menses, she gains a good bit of weight (and young women who do a lot of physical activities first menses is 2-3 years after less active but fully feed women). Thus the effect on women is not surprising, but I loved how the writer wrote it up like it had something new about women and weight.

The earlier onset of menses in women (and the related gain in young teen women weight) seen over the last 100 years in the Western World probably has to do with young women being both better feed AND doing less physical activities than there did 100 years ago.


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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
61. Appetite Seems to Be the Key
The original poster obviously has no idea what it's like to really, really, WANT to eat.

I believe it was LaRouchefoucauld who said "If we conquer temptation, it is generally due to its weakness rather than our strength."

Pregnancy and nursing are what did it to me. When I was nursing babies, I craved food contstantly. Within 2-3 hours after a major holiday dinner, I would be ravenous again. Obviously, the body needs a few extra calories when nursing, but whatever mechanism controls the appetite grossly over-calulated. By the time my last child was weaned, I was 50 lbs. over my first pre-pregnancy weight.

I've lost about 40 of that (cutting out soda completely accounted for about 25) but it's a constant struggle. It took over a year, and I have to think about everything I eat, count calories every day. If I just rely on my appetite and eat "only when I'm hungry," I start right back up the scale.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Excellent point, (even though I mentioned it already, ahem)....
and in my opinion it really is the nub of the mystery. Would really _love_ to come up with a good study design to address this.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
132. yeah
none of us know what it's like to really, really, WANT to eat, we're not human.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
140. Shame on you! You enjoy your food?! Naughty girl!
/sarcasm off

OP doesn't believe in God. He doesn't need to 'cause he thinks that's who he is.
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Frederic Bastiat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. There are very few 300lbs europeans
Bollocks it must be our water!
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Less additives in food in Europe
fewer processed food. I lived and France and went to a farmers market everyday, year round. I was just in Italy, and people have access to fresh produce from local farms year round.

Here, poor people try to stretch their food stamps spending money on Ramen noodles and Kraft Mac & Cheese. At 3/$1, it's easier and cheaper to feed a family on that than my organic whole grain penne mac & cheese with organic skim milk (no BHT) and organic cheese.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. if that's all there is to it then why don't I weigh 20,000 pounds?
I guess I must have eaten that much in my long life.

It's obviously more complicated than the ounce-by-ounce amount you eat every day. Many people, unlike your sister, eat very little yet still don't lose weight. It's unfair to judge the whole subk=ject of obesity through the lens of your sister.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I would surmise you have shat ~19,850 pounds.
:D
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. But you use 2500 calorie a day just living
Edited on Tue Dec-23-03 08:38 PM by happyslug
Thus a average man uses 2500 calores a day, while an average woman uses
1900 calories per day.

The problem is one pound of fat equals 3500 calories.

Thus you have to INCREASE your outputs of calories (or decrease your inputs) to burn off the fat.

List of how much calories are used during what:
http://www.fitness.gov/exerciseweight.html

Obese Inactive people only start to lose weight if calorie intake drops below 800 calories per day, as compared to 1500 calories if the same person is active:
http://www.nutramed.com/weight/exercise.htm


http://www.canoe.ca/HealthMayeMusk/eatingdo.html
http://www.canoe.ca/HealthMayeMuskColumns/000104.html

For information on Biking and calories usage:
http://www.cptips.com/energy.htm

And a real nice biking/speed/velocity. Calorie usage calculator:
http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocity/velocity.html
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Thanks for the links!
I burn about 580 kCals an hour when I ride. Need to get that up.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
127. Remember it is a guideline
So saying you are burnign 585 Calories may be to precise (500-600 Calories may be a more accurate way to say what you are saying).

I noted that when I pluged in the number I notice my "speed" was up to 18 mph, that was to fast, I go about 10-12 MPH (According my the speedometer on my bike and my calculation based on the lentgh of my trips and the time it takes me. To get the Speed down to that number I changed the "Watts" from 300 to 200 watts. This gave me a speed I beleive I was doing and thus a Calorie count I could trust. Please even than I would recomend you go low and try to keep the number you are using within a range of accuracy that you find comfortable.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
152. I'd be very careful...
.... accepting the idea that the "average man" uses 2500 cals a day.

I have calculated my usage at about 2400, and I have lots of things that make me use more calories than the average man.

Things like muscle mass (not weight), activity levels, and other factors all come into play.

The other thing I think gets a *huge* number of people, both men and women, is this.

As we age, our metabolism slows. If you continue to eat at 45 what you were eating at 20, you'd better be getting a lot of exercise. Also, many people lose lean muscle mass as they age. This works against you very much, because your calorie requirements drop, you are the same weight so you eat the same, you gain adipose weight, and a cycle begins that is hard to break.

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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. There are deceases which will cause people...
...to gain weight. Like it doesn't matter how little they eat, they just gain weight.

Deceases such as pollycystic ovaries, slow metabalism, gland problems, etc.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. I wish the hell I knew, Karl.
Edited on Tue Dec-23-03 10:23 PM by BiggJawn
Last time I went to the doctor, I had gained 14 pounds in 3 months. this was the biggest weight-gain since I was diagnosed Diabetic.

I actually LOST weight for a while. Got down to 260#, was starting to look GOOD!
Then he started playing around with my meds. I started edging up the weight, but I thought that it was the usual "I stopped smoking and got FAT" gain.

I bought a bicycle, started riding, not that 1/2 mile and go home and eat old-person shit, I'm talking 14 miles in an hour or less, hit the hills, make the heart-rate monitor scream type of riding.
The weight kept coming on. At the peak of summer I was riding 25-40 miles a week and GAINING weight. I thought I had "blown" my diet, so I did some calorie-counting. No, 2000-2300 a day, just like the dietician put me on 3 years ago.

Now I weigh 304#. I did some research, and discovered that TWO of the medications I'm on say "May cause moderate weight gain..." Now, as we all know, medical people are the masters of understatement, like when he says "This might sting a little" just before it feels like you've been kicked in the balls? Yeah, so I figure their "moderate" is probably more than 10# a month...My doctor never told me this when I asked him about side-effects. He didn't tell me about Thiazide and impotence, either, which is why he's my FORMER doctor. But since I'm in a HMO...Uh, EXCUSE me, THEY prefer "Managed Care", I can't see a new doctor for another 3 weeks (it took 8 weeks to get in for the "new patient appointment")

Hopefully, we can get a handle on this. I'm the only diabetic I know who's following the "routine" and not losing weight. My blood glucose levels have been good, so my diabetes is under control. My weight is not. I have not been checked for Thyroid function, but I'll tell ya, Karl, I get tired easily. My joints ache, my muscles hurt. Sometimes I wonder if I've got MS. It's hard to get into the tight pants and go for a ride when you feel like you've already spent the day with Lance.

Sorry this is so long, but I thought you might be able to glean something from it if I gave you the whole ugly story instead of one of my usual flip one-liners....

BTW, I'm slightly peeved at your characterization of my eating habits as "Stuffing it down my throat", but I'll get over it. I know that's "Just Karl"...


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
141. How dare youy question Karl? I mean, God?
Oops, I forget, Karl doesn't believe in himself . . .
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
41. People, get serious.
Not everyone has the same metabolism.

Not all eating disorders have the same cause.

Making value judgements about people based on their weight is counterproductive in the extreme.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
92. But it's oh so fun
feeling morally superior. I bet these guys are real fun at parties. :eyes:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #92
143. At other people's parties--at the parties I throw, food is the stellar
attraction. Here, have some artichoke dip . . .

Karl, the organic wheat germ is over there to the right, by the bigots and Rush fans.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #92
145. As my blunt family would say,
they need to get the poles out of their asses and lighten up.
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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
45. That's why I stay away from heavy foods
like vegetables and fruits. I try to stick stick with lighter things like cake and cheesy poofs. :silly:
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chefgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
53. Absolutely sickening
The entire text of your original post is small minded, sickening, and completely intolerant of anyone who isn't as physically beautiful as you seem to think you are.

Shame on you, Karl.

-chef-
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-23-03 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
60. How can anyone reach the age of 60 or above...
and be so frigging stupid? I don't really understand why there are so many stupid people in the world...

Would someone explain to me how it is possible to get less intelligence from the same sized brain? Do some people get stupid from some strange kind of osmosis...from sunlight, air, water or TV commercials?

What mysterious concatenation of physiology allows a human to increase its level of stupidity as one ages?

I have no quarrel with stupid people unless they revert to the Rush Limbaugh 'defense'. It is psychologically impossible to get less intelligent the more you are confronted with evidence that refutes your argument.

If anyone doubts this obvious truism, consider: how exactly could one get dumber with more information?

gee.....guess that doesn't quite sound so nice, now does it?
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
64. Gadzooks, guy!
How about a little tact, ferpetessakes? Some of us have to starve ourselves to maintain an "acceptable" weight, while those with raging metabolisms can eat a bucket of lard and not gain an ounce.

Believe it. I spent years watching an ex of mine shovel the most godawful, unhealthy crap into her gaping maw, constantly (and if she could slather it in butter, she would) -- and I never saw her inch above 115 lbs.

I can keep myself at 130 if I consume NOTHING but coffee and two Slim-Fast bars a day.

Crimeny, man, what makes you think every human body works the same? If they did, none of us would ever get cancer or have to wear glasses.

I suppose you're one of those "lucky" ones. Whatever. Just ease up on the fat folks, would you?
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
65. Karl...
...I read your post this morning, over morning coffee. Because it was still first thing in the morning for me, I never digested (no pun intended) what you actually wrote until now. Now I am gonna say more.

I have always had respect for you, Karl, that is, right up until this thread.

Not only have you insulted your own flesh and blood, by insulting your sister, but you are equating all large people as being (in your own words) big fat pigs, who eat like one.

While I am not overly obese Karl, I am still a large woman. And I don't happen to be ugly either (one day I will post my picture.)

My weight isn't caused by over eating. I really do not eat that much. Most days I will skip either breakfast or lunch. When I have dinner, I do not fill my plate, because of skipping out on a meal, either. My weight gain is caused by a medical condition. A condition I didn't know I had until such time as I was sick to death of trying diet after diet, and never getting any weight loss with them.

I have polycystic ovaries, Karl. The reason I have weight gain is simply because my body produces a lot more male testosterone than it should. I do have other problems which are because of this medical condition, but the weight gain is the one which causes me the most embarrassment.

Why am I embarrassed, Karl? Simply because of small minded people like yourself, who have absolutely no consideration for a fellow human being.

I am sick to death of going out for a meal and having people stare at me. Now, I don't go out for meals, or if I do, it is very rare, and I do try to turn my back to the people, so I can't see them staring.

Before you insult people Karl, maybe you should really do some research into true medical conditions which cause people to be the way they are.

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Laszlo_Hollyfeld Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
66. The human body manufacturers saturated fats, even
from healthy foods like broccoli and spinach salad. If there was a simple relationship to the weights and amounts consumed and obesity then theoretically eating 2 pounds of broccoli would make you weigh more than eating an entire angelfood cake. But that's not what happens. The cake makes you fat because it your body turns it uses it to create layers of saturated fat.

Here's an eye-opening link. It seems there's a lot of misinformation going around about weight, fats, exercise and obesity.

http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0309146/health_feat.shtm...
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Maine Mary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
68. It's a disease
Just as horrid (and costly) as smoking, Funny thing is, I PAY for my illness (w/cigatette taxes), but taxpayers including myself, pay for overweight people.






















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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #68
78. Mary, you're smarter than that.
I see Karl's not the only "eye opener" in this thread.
Do your constituents know this ugly little factoid about you?
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
70. Not all medical "excuses" are bullshit
Hypothyroidism is a real problem for some americans. Now I'm not saying most overweight people have this but some do and it can cause weight gain that goes beyond what you eat. Also many people who are overweight have insulin issues and these can make it easier to gain weight and harder to take it off (that said many insulin issues are caused by initial overeating or poor eating selection). What is the Rush Limbaugh defense by the way, "I gain weight cause I'm a giant asshole and I went on heroin to lose it?" :) Also I'm not sure your sis really appreciates you calling her fat as a pig on a public group where she can't defend herself... but thats just me I guess.
Scott
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ermoore Donating Member (474 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
71. Dude, all I know is . . .
That I spent a year abroad (Taiwan, India, Thailand, Nepaul, and Turkey) and maybe (MAYBE!) saw two obese people. Before that I had no problem with fat people, but now I think that if it's a disease or something they can't help then why are only Americans so damn fat?! Makes me think they're only fat because of how they live and they don't have to be fat if they didn't wanna be.

I dunno. I feel bad for thinking that, but I do.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. Americans are fast food junkies ...
and we're not as physically active. We work longer hours than the rest of the world, on average, and many of us use food as a stress reliever (emotional eaters).
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ermoore Donating Member (474 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. I know, but
I don't think that can account for all of it. And I realize that some people really do have legitimate glandular (or whatever) health problems that make them gain weight, but I think they are also a minority among the obese.

And I don't care one bit if the airlines want to charge someone for two tickets if they take up two seats. I wouldn't want to share half my seat with someone. Damn flights are uncomfortable enough as it is.
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
84. Coming in late, but I hope you read this.
I'm pregnant now but pre-pregnancy I was overweight and I have been almost all of my life. There were two times when I was able to lose weight. One summer in high school, I only ate vegetables all summer. I lost thirty or forty pounds. It didn't take long to gain it all back when I started eating a balanced diet again. The second time, I exercised at least five days a week, sometimes a couple of times a day. I ate maybe 1500 calories--not just vegetables that time, but about half vegetables. Even then, I lost about 25 pounds in a couple of months and then I plateaued for another four or five months after that--and I still could have lost thirty pounds or so. I couldn't sustain the diet or activity level I was at, so I gained that weight back.

After that I joined a gym, worked out three to five times a week, and ate about 2000-2200 calories a day. I lifted weights regularly, so I increased my lean muscle mass but I didn't lose any weight at all.

So, to sum up, not every body works like your body. Some people are fat because they are lazy gluttons. Other people are fat for reasons that aren't their fault. I don't know why I'm overweight, I just am. I eat healthily and I exercise regularly and that's all I can do.

Unless you can tell the lazy gluttons from the rest of us just by looking, stop judging people.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
85. what loving compassion your sister must feel from you ...NOT
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 08:24 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
"the dilemma of my own sister who is fat as a pig, eats like one, and blames her largeness on various 'genetic', 'hormonal', and/or 'gladular' problems. All of which are pure bullshit"


no need to wonder why she seeks for comfort in food.....i know my daughters best friend has a brother such as yourself....and the poor girl is suicidal...
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
86. I can't believe this kind of bigotry is at DU
we are supposed to be open-minded liberal people!

A lot of people struggle with their weight-- whether due to medical conditions, depression, or societal situations. Heck, I'm a thin person and I struggle with my weight. I gained 20 pounds over the last year. I still look thin, but my clothes don't fit anymore. Now, no matter what I do I can't seem to drop a single fucking pound. I don't eat a lot- I never eat fast food (not a lot of vegetarian options)- and I exercise on a daily basis. Plus, being in Boston, I walk almost everywhere I need to go-- but I still gained 20 pounds and I can't lose it.

I'm just glad I'm not your sister, karl. I'm having enough trouble as it is without having a condescending brother making fun of me.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. are you by any chance nearing menopause?
It's not very well known (according to my doctor) that metabolism changes dramatically over a period of years nearing 50.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. She's a youngun, spooky3
you're right about menopause changing metabolism. i'm in my 30s and my metabolism has slowed down significantly.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #88
101. I'm only 25
:-)
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
115. well then that's not it :-)!
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
87. I'm surprised no one has mentioned another set of factors...
having to do with the business of producing and selling food, such as:

1) Agricultural subsidies for producing high carb food such as corn but not fresh fruits (see W. Post article on this a few weeks ago)

2) Tons of advertising $ urging you to (buy food and) eat constantly. You don't see this as much in France and other cultures.

3) The economics of "supersizing" at restaurants, e.g., people pay a few pennies more for a lot more French fries, which have a lot of calories.

I am not going to argue that any of these negate personal choice/responsibility, medical conditions, etc., that other people have already discussed. I am simply adding them to the list of things that encourage us to eat too much and/or eat the wrong things.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #87
96. Mention.
This gives me an opportunity to point up a bit more in the way of genetic predispositions. A lot of native americans, especially the southwestern tribes, and especially the Pimas, have a metabolism that is absolutely wonderful at conserving calories in a sparse landscape. Their bodies can really get the most out of times of lean food supply, and store away good harvests and hunts very effectively. Now, take these people and put them on an american suburban diet, white bread and so on, and they have the highest rates of type 2 diabetes on the planet! So what you all are observing in the way of american being fatter than people in other countries is a valid observation - but really doesn't get at causes, because you seem to be saying americans eat too much, or eat wrong.

In partial response to those of you angry at Karl for his intolerance, I think he was honestly raising a question, perhaps in some despair. (I always like to think the best of people). So, while we've helped to educate him, I think, all of you should realize by now that we really don't understand beans about the causes of obesity. And a large part of the reason we don't understand it is that we in the medical establishment have assumed we understood it - we think the slobs eat too much & don't exercise enough - and if we can just get them to quit doing that, the obesity will go away. As long as we cling to this model, we're not going to make any progress, and I can tell you as a medical researcher interested in this, it's really frustrating. We need a paradigm shift, and it's just not happening yet.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. thanks for sharing your medical and scientific knowledge
with all of us. Even though it's upsetting to you that all answers aren't yet known, we appreciate your work.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. You're quite welcome, although what upsets me is
the unwillingness of researchers to consider other ideas. The fact that all answers aren't yet known, and never will be, is what makes life fun! and interesting! The fact that the people with the money think obesity etiology is an answered question and wouldn't give me any money to look at the question even if I ask nicely is upsetting. ~sigh~. I mean, I wouldn't ask for anything near $87 billion. My biggest funded NIH grant so far has been $1.2 million over 4 years, although the one I'm submitting in Feb will probably be bigger. I could do a lot of those with $87 billion.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
89. Most obese people simply eat too much and exercise too little.
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 09:39 AM by HuckleB
A few do have systemic disorders which lead to the storage of fat, despite a diet that could be looked upon as barely enough to sustain basic nutrients. This is a small percentage of a small percentage of obese people in this country, however.
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elmariachi Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. HuckleB
Your statement CANNOT BE SAID ENOUGH:

A few do have systemic disorders which lead to the storage of fat, despite a diet that could be looked upon as barely enough to sustain basic nutrients. This is a small percentage of a small percentage of obese people in this country, however.

Beat that into everyone's head. Its not natural! It is NOT natural! Its the choice of lifestyle that makes you this way. Its the food people eat, its the sedentary lifestyle they lead. The more everyone lets people get away with it by just blaming genetics is sickening.

What's wrong about the whole fat tax is that people are so set in unhealthy lifestyles that making them pay more is the only way the government can think of stopping it.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. It's not that simple. You obviously haven't done research.
A lot of people aren't as educated and knowledgeable about health and nutrition as people on DU. The public has been inundated with fast food and the food pyramid is all wrong. Most of the obese in this country are poor who probably try to stretch their food stamps to feed their family. Unfortunately, Ramen Noodles and Kraft Mac & Cheese are much cheaper and go farther than asparagus and fish. So let's make the few of them who can afford health insurance have to pay even more for it. What do you think will happen?

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #93
97. Sorry, but it's not that simple either.
Obesity now ranges throughout the population and classes.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #93
105. Yes, Pyramid is all outta whack
We've certainly been given bad advice on weight here in the U.S.

The "pyramid" that health classes teach us to follow tells us to eat 6-11 (yes, 11) servings of bread/pasta/cereal a day.

If I ate 6 small bowls of pasta every day, I would get into football games free with a "Goodyear" tee-shirt.

Two books--"Fast-Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser and "Food Politics" by Marion Nestle address the problem of American culture and government policies and how they've affected our weight.

According to Nestle, food producers contribute enough money to politicians to influence what the supposedly neutral agencies come up with (I know this is a shock to everyone at DU, who could NEVER believe that $ would influence government policy, but . . .)
Hence we can't advise people to cut out certain foods in any governmental literature.

Schlosser's bete noir is high-fructose corn syrup, which he believes affects our metabolism, making us crave more sweets and making it easier for our body to convert carbs to fat. It was approved for widespread use sometime in the 70s, made it MUCH cheaper for food companies to sweeten everything. Says the explosion in available snack foods and much of the supersizing phenomenon is due to the use of HFCS, which is much cheaper to use than cane sugar. This is why Big Gulps are so cheap. Food companies make a ton of money by selling double the number of calories for only a few extra cents, so that's why they encourage us to buy.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. The key to pasta and bread is to go whole grain
It's ten times worse when it's been processed to look white. Whole wheat, bran, oats, etc... I think are less fattening (at least in my experiments).

And Fastfood Nation is an awesome book. I will definitely check out Food Politics.
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #89
99. You may be right but
how can you tell by looking which ones have a legit medical condition and which ones are lazy asses? I don't know about you, but I can't. That's why I try never to judge an obese person for their obesity.

Also, there are a lot of skinny people who eat crap and are just as unhealthy as fat people, but you can't tell that just by looking, either.
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oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #99
104. My sister-in-law is thin but is not a light eater
Everyone has their weaknesses. My sister-in-law has a sweet tooth and eats lots of candy. She is always buying and eating candy even after a large meal. Yet some people would probably look at her and assume that she is a health fanatic because she is fashionably thin.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. Who was judging?
And, while eating crap ain't good, if you exercise enough to stay thin, you are still going to be healthier than an obese person.
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
94. The eating habits are a weight enemy.
Edited on Wed Dec-24-03 10:30 AM by BonjourUSA
Until these last years only 9% of our population had a overweight and 2 to 3% were obese BUT a study made this year shows that the number of obeses is increasing for the French kids. That's not an issue yet but we must react. Already, all the schools have to serve balanced meals and to be advised by a nutritionist.

The families in which the kids are getting overweight have bad eating habits. Sugar excess (soda, cornflakes...), deep frozen foods (a new French law imposes a low level of salt in these foods and the quantity written on the package ), nibbling all the day long, lack of fresh fruits and vegetables... The majority of these kids live in the urban areas.
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oldcoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #94
102. Do you have plenty of areas for children to safely play?
In the United States, I think that one of the biggest problems for children living in urban areas is finding safe places to play. I remember growing up during the "good old" days and having large backyards to play in. However, it seems that many houses today are built on small lots and provide very little room for children. Contributing to the problem in my city, Las Vegas, is the fact that we do not have enough parks. Unfortunately, it seems like the only place that children have to play is in the streets and this really is not the best place for them to play.

We also should start building more places for skateboarders. Many places in the United States ban skateboarders from their property because they are possibly afraid that the skateboarders will annoy customers or they are worried about liability issues. Since skateboarding is one form of exercise, perhaps we should create more places for the skateboarders.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
108. Comments on this thread sound like Bush I Republicans
Most obese are poor. Bush I's administration tried to prove you could live well on food stamps. And the hard-hearted comments on this thread are not too much of a stretch. Again, I will post an example of how much it costs to eat healthily. Not that it will sink into the closed minds here.

Face it: If you're trying to stretch your food stamps, it's cheaper to buy Mac & Cheese at 3/$1 than whole-wheat pasta ($2.49/lb), organic Skim milk ($3.29 1/2 gallon) and Schmancy cheese ($5+ per lb.). It is cheaper to buy processed food at Walmart or a Happy Meal at Mickey Dee's.

Try living in an area with a high cost of living. A poor person would be hard-pressed to afford a healthy-eating lifestyle:


Dozen Eggs $2.99 a dozen (Organic/Free-farmed $3.69)
Pot Roast $7.99/lb (cheap cut-nothing fancy)
Boneless Chix $5.49/lb
Center Cut Port Chops $5.99/lb (ON SALE!)
Cabot Butter $3.49 LB (for baking Christmas stuff)
Lettuce (mesclun greens): $7.98/lb
Broccoli: $1.99-2.49/lb
Celery $1.79/BUNCH
Asparagus: $3.99/lb
Spanish Onion: $0.99/lb
Leeks $2.49/lb
Bartlett Pears $1.39/lb (Sale)
MacIntosh Apples $1.79/LB
Lemons 2/$1
Half & Half (Pint, Organic): $1.99

This is an example from the CHEAP grocery store where I live. I only shop for two people-thank God. I wonder how many times I'll have to post an example of what GOOD FOOD ACTUALLY COSTS before it sinks in.

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EV1Ltimm Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
110. "...my own sister who is fat as a pig"
what a disgusting thing to say.

why don't you show some compassion?
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #110
125. "fat as a pig" does not mean that she is a pig, right ?
Would "elephant" sound better ? Would "blimp" sound better ? C'mon, don't be so defensive... Saying that his own sister is obese would be more PC, obviously... But that would not change how this person feel about the sister...
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
112. Metabolism is an issue
One would lose weight if one ate nothing at all. How many food calories one burns per day depends on their metbolism. Two sedentary people of the same weight might burn a different number of calories per day just by living. A person who burns only 1200 calories per day but eats 1500 calories, which is fairly low might eventually become very heavy. A person who burns 1800 calories by just living will become very thin if they only eat 1500 calories. I, myself, am mysteriously a thinner 125 pounds eating more food than I did when I was 150 pounds and regularly vommitting. My only thought is that my metabolism slowed down because my body did not want me to lose weight while I was sick (chronic sinus infection and digeestive problems). Theoretically, adult mammals do not lose or gain more than 10% of their body weight per year if their glands are functionally properly. A bodies physiology adjusts to feast and famine. This was determined by experiments with a variety of domestic animals and prisioners.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
113. OMG Karl
You weren't just satisfied with posting your obnoxiousness and narrowmindedness in a thread, but then you had to go and start a whole new thread to show it off. You sir are one pathetic puppy!

Get this straight, your pound for pound thesis simply doesn't work in the real world. Not only are there many many glandular, hormonal, and chemical imbalances that can effect your weight, but there is also what goes into ones food that can effect weight gain. In addition one's metabolism, age, and sex can also effect it.

I would suggest that instead of obsessing over your sister's weight, spend some time getting to know her. Judging a person based on their looks instead of who they are only shows how bigoted you are. Hell, a hundred years ago, pleasantly plump women were considered the ideal. A few thousand years ago your sister would have been considered a definite hottie due to her size. Looks are simply a fad, in this case one brought about by Madison Av. Don't buy into it.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-24-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. the sad thing is, she and he probably take in the same #
of calories per day--2500 calories would probably maintain 5'11" and 170 lbs., wouldn't they? So if both are eating the same number of calories, how is only one a "pig"?
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
121. Certain neurotransmitters are involved
...I am not an expert but there is little question that Serotonin agonists and reuptake inhibitors affect appetite. If one is depressed and takes a Serotonin drug, their appetite will be reduced. This was the reason why the Fen-phen craze took place. Both drugs affected serotonin metabalism. Phentermine is still prescribed. Unfortunately the fenfluramines cause primary pulmonary hypertension and valvular heart disease and secondary pulmonary hypertension. Like virtually all diet medications, if you stop taking them, there is a rebound effect and any weight lost is invariably regained.

Diet drugs are only marginally more effective than diet and exercise alone and then only in some cases. The risk of taking diet drugs usually don't warrant taking them. Even over the counter diet remedies can be very risky.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. Pollution
Pollution I think factors in to this fat issue.

What we eat is polluted covered in untested fior long term safety chemicals.Also High frutose corn syrup that has caused alot of weight gain and it is in practicaklly everything and no it isn't fouind in nature.It is a modified sugar.
What we have is people meddilig with nature for profit,and it is unworkable and half of us suffer one way(starvation) while the other half gets fat(another form of starvation)

Rats will not eat white bread.
Because processed white bread robs your body of nutrients.
Certain high fat high carb foods release endophins and it's like a drug for over stressed people.
Our civilization cannot sustain itself this way.

Mass production and greed leads to us all -but the very wealthy becoming sick.

As for this assumption by some middle class or minimum wage folks,the poor are getting better healthcare,think again.
When will people realize if you support the don't haves,instead of the haves,everyone can benifiet,greedy people are not known for thier generosity..and insurance Ceos are greedy.

One thing alot of people might be unaware of is,it's very hard to even FIND a doctor who will accept the minimal fees medical assistance pays out to doctors ,so if you are lucky enuff to find a doc,expect the waits to see the doc to be forever and your meetings with them to be as short as possible.Often the docs who accept medical assistance are not the best doctors,they have problems and aren't observant or listening or compassionate at all.Medical assistance is almost like having no insurance.Since medical assistance covers next to nothing.If you get frustrated,you may want to pay for medical treatment yourself anyway if you want to SEE the doctor soon, BUT if you try to pay a doc on medical assistance you are not allowed to do that.So you are stuck.
Pay for a doc with your own money like the uninsured,or go to a bad doc and wait,wait,months for an appointment,be left partly untreated,and be treated like scum of the earth.Medical assistance people will settle for crappy docs because that's all they docs that accept the low fees .
Fuck the rich make the rich pay the people they use for thier opulent lifestyles they get from the toil of others..
Did you know goveners and many government pundits don't pay rent on the fancy historic houses they occupy?

The old boy networks and rich country clubs make sure 'thier' sort of people never pay for thier keep.
So to hell with them and thier 'growth'and fostering of internecine competition between citizens,make the ultra rich top 1% pay for thier greed!

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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
124. 1cal + 1cal = 2cal
Question those which are hungry in many African countries or elsewhere, they don't have obeses at home yet.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
128. I am not commenting on this discussion
since I already have a black mark on my record on DU for saying I have a prejudice against fat people. :shrug:

I guess that is not the politically correct thing to say, so I will not say it again. LOL, In spite of how I feel about fat people.

I will say that I have observed a whole lot of fat people who, to me, offend my sense of propritary. I mean it , to me, is really offensive to see a seven year old kid who is so fat that they waddle instead of walking. I suppose that I an expected to make some kind of an excuse, but I really cannot find one other than the addiction to food is as bad as the addiction to drugs.

I constantly have to watch what I eat due to diabetes--and I will say that fat people are not, to me, very much in my catagory of those who I envy.

Did I say something politically enept again?

Sorry, but fat people just, imo, eat too much, and I am amongst those who ate too much and made up all kinds of excuses and denials as to why I ate too much.

Now you can delete me--but, i think it is time to bring this to the forefront--we here in this country eat too much and we have so many different types of excuses in denial to advocate our addiction to food, that some of here, get deleted for telling the truth.

Food is an addiction when taken to the point where people waddle instead of walk. It, to me, is offensive.
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. We all have our crosses to bear.
Ignorance offends me, for example.

I could offer a faux-apology about political correctness just to cover myself, but that kind of intellectual cowardice offends me too.

I think I'll just encode my prejudices as logical so that I no longer have to examine them. Is that the idea?

Good grief!
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #129
137. actually that is probably the best thing to do
I am pleased to see so many coming to the defense of their take on the national problem of the unhealthy condition called obesity. I really do honestly think it better that way than having a post deleted because one person said something that "offends" others here who struggle with that disturbing but curable condition.



Eat too much and you get fat--that is a fact.It is not a judgement. Give your children too much to eat, and they will also get, not inherit, fat.

Eat too much for most of your life and chances are that you will end up with a chronic disease such as diabetes. One is at risk also for other complications of obesity as one gets older. It is not pretty to see a young person, or any person, waddle instead of walk. That is my perception. Delete it if it offends--I am stating the fact of my perception. And I will not apologize for losing weight either. I am quite proud of that accomplishment. I was not obese as a young person.

don't know what AOL signs are--we have smiley signs here oon DU, I forgive you if that is an attempt to wound me for stating my perceptions of an obese person or the stark fact that if one eats too much, one gets fat.

As an example, it is disturbing to me to see a twelve year old kid stuffing themself with sugar coated danish pastry, one or two of the gooey packaged types one buys in a convienence store, as an after school snack, as I saw one day this past fall.

The child was so encumbered by fat that her elasticized waist pants were way down below her waist in the back as she bent over the handle bars, revealing quite a bit of her "love handles" and the beginning of her butt-it was not a pretty sight to my eyes--I also wondered if, being so fat, she was at a greater risk of accident on that bike, than a normal sized kid would be because she appeared ungainly. She stopped in front of me and gobbled down those two danish pastries along with a soda.

There is an epidemic of obesity in this country that is going unchecked. It is unhealthy, and there is something that one can do about it and also do for their children.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #137
146. Eat too much and you get fat
my husband's brother is almost 50, eats enough for a small country, and doesn't get fat. He also doesn't exercise very much. John has run marathons and works out religiously yet seems to gain weight if he doesn't watch what he eats.

Please explain.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #146
150. My very wise mother was fond of saying to me
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 04:57 PM by Marianne
don't pay attention to what other people are doing. Who cares if someone doesn't get fat by eating--if you get fat by eating too much, then take responsibility. It makes no difference what anyone else does. They are not the people that will be present on the operating table if you need an emergency gall bladder operation and the surgeon is hindered from doing a good job, by your layers of fat which you yourself have put in his way.

You and only you are responsible for maintaining a healthy weight, and that is best done by admitting that you eat too much if you are fat. At the least, have all the tests , pay for them without trying to control your food addiction, and if they are negative then do something other than pointing out what others do. Who could care if your neighbor seems to eat the same and still does not gain weight? The point is that YOU do.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. Gall bladder removal surgery
>They are not the people that will be present on the operating table if you need an emergency gall bladder operation and the surgeon is hindered from doing a good job, by your layers of fat which you yourself have put in his way.<

I hate to burst your bubble, Marianne, but I had this very surgery last year. Not only did my surgeon think I was an excellent candidate for it (despite being FAT,) he assured me that gallstones are formed by many different factors, one of which is simply being a female. I asked him if there would be any problem with the surgery because of my size. He told me repeatedly that he would not operate if there was any question in his mind it was less than safe.

My surgery went very well. It went so well, as a matter of fact, that I was home in our bed two hours after the end of surgery, off the pain meds in less than four days, and recovered with no ill effects.

I'm sure that this crushes you -- after all, if I'd died on the table because of being fat, there'd be one more statistic for you to rub in the faces of those who are fat, wouldn't there?

Welcome to my "ignore" file.

Julie
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #146
153. Everybodys metabolism
.. is different. I've heard nobody argue here that two people with the same weight and activity level can eat the same things and remain at the same weight.

That is clearly not true, it would be absurd to say that some people do not have to be a lot more restrictive and disciplined than others to achieve reasonable weight.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Even more offensive to me
is that some people are so unreflective that they don't see their own illness, though it's present on this message board for the whole world to see. They'd rather project their neurotic fear of being overweight onto the objects of their scorn. Their relationship with food is just as unhealthy as the fat person who gouges on junk food. It's all about control-or lack of thereof-and there are many qualified professionals who deal with this.

Just because overeating and making excuses is part of YOUR experience, it does not mean it's part of everyone else's experience. There is plenty of research documenting food allergies, and a genetic component to obesity. Are you denying this? And how do you know it's just overeating and not acccess to nutritional foods that make people fat?

Wait until you hit menopause. Over 60% of menopausal and post-menopausal women end up with a hypoactive thyroid. Not to mention that the female metabolism really starts slowing down naturally. What will you do if that happens to you? Starve yourself? Make yourself puke? Take laxatives?

Most obese folks are also poor, as stated by many posters on this board. I listed my healthy grocery list and compared it to the inexpenive, high-carbohydrate diet that many poor folks eat due to being on a limited budget. And I really think that aside from a neurotic obsession on being thin that many women absorb from society, much of this hatred toward the obese stems from a disparaging attitude toward the poor in general. I expected more from a liberal message board.



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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #130
142. excellent post.
I haven't read each one of these obesity threads post by post but I can attest to the fact that healthy food IS costly. The specialty Atkins food, for example, is pricey. The more affordable food is high carb for sure.

Your analysis is right on IMHO although I am NOT surprised to see this sort of attitude on this "liberal" message board. It seems typical lately. :hi:
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. And it's perfectly acceptable to have this anorexic attitude in society
Not one of the fatists responds to the basic facts regarding lack of access to nutritional foods for poor folks, metabolism, genetic components or THEIR OWN NEUROTIC OBSESSION WITH THINNESS. They are so wrapped up in their mental illness that they can't understand facts and logic. There are many professionals available to help them:

http://www.anorexicsanonymous.com/treatment.htm#United%...

I was thin my whole life until my thyroid went haywire. I ran 10K races and taught aerobics. I am close to my normal weight now and in great cardiovascular shape. In my experience, I've seen a more unhealthy attitude toward food on the part of those obsessed with thinness that the overweight. It's just that society ACCEPTS the anorexic's unhealthy relationship with food, while blaming the obese person for their predicament.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #128
134. Stupidity is Offensive
I think the stupid should just die, because they don't fit into my sense of properosity. Anyone who can't spell out "in my opinion" or thinks they have to laugh at their own 'jokes' with AOL shorthand is just an affront to everything that is good and decent.
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LiberalTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
131. Oh, Karl...
What is the main crux of your anger (for lack of a better word)?

I haven't been here for a couple days so I don't know what other threads you are talking about, but....it sounds like you are angry because your sister is blaming everything and everyone else for her struggle with weight loss. Is this all she talks about? Can you change the subject when you are with her? If this isn't all she talks about, then why are you concerning yourself with her weight? Just curious....

Also, this thread hurts my brain. Who here at DU is actually a Registered Dietitian?
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
133. This thread makes me want to puke, or eat a gallon of ice cream
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 01:24 AM by eileen_d
I'm not sure which. :shrug:

Edit: I've been both underweight and overweight. It's never been anybody's business but my own.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
135. I don't have a medical background
but I know from experience that overcoming over-eating is a serious problem. Many people on this thread have and will attribute obesity to laziness and lack of willpower. In some families addiction plays out in different ways. Some family members may have drug and alcohol addictions and some may have food addictions. Food is just like a drug to some but its worse because you don't have to have drugs and alcohol to live but you must have food to live. You literally face your weakness everyday with each meal. Why is it that some get addicted and others do not? I don't know but I suspect that it depends on the individual's biochemistry. Some people can experiment with drugs and never get addicted while others may try something once and they're hooked. I don't condemn anyone because of weight because I know what it's like to fight food addiction every single day. I'm winning my fight because I have family support. I hope your sister finds someone who is willing to support her as well.

Peace
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
136. I gained 45 lbs. of water weight five years ago from a medication.
It's called Prolixin, and I was taking it for a long time (from 7th grade until the beginning of 11th grade). I really didn't eat much more than I usually did, but I gained 45 lbs. I was 175 lbs. when I was 15 1/2, and I went up to 230 at the end of 11th grade.

I've lost 20 lbs. from my peak weight of 242 ever since. So I think medications can play a role in it too.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #136
148. "I think medications can play a role in it too"
absolutely, so can certain disorders. BUT, for most people is that they eat without being careful and don't exercise enough.
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
147. I think
there are more important things to worry about in life, Karl.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
156. Karl's Sister
Probably has some wonderful qualities which Karl lacks -- like empathy, compassion, and understanding.

You will never "help" her by looking down at her. Her problem is more VISIBLE than most of ours, but we ALL have our weaknesses -- I feel bad for fat people because theirs is right out there and jerky people can lord it over them....
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. I eat less and gain more
My appetite is much smaller than it was when I was younger and thinner. I've lost my taste for a lot of the most unhealthy foods, too. I don't like fast food or a lot of the fattier things I ate when I was younger. I still have some food vices, but if I eat a full lunch..meaning a regular sized sandwich from home - not talking about some huge thing from a deli - and a piece of fruit, I'm still a litte full by dinner time. I know I don't get enough excercise. My life is too sedentary, but the sedentary part is all work and comuter time. I don't watch any tv or anything like that. It's work at work, work at home on the computer and housework and errands that make up my day.

I think that one thing that makes a huge difference is that we don't walk anywhere. Most of us really can't walk anywhere. I mean, we can take a walk, but we're not going anywhere when we do it. When I go into NYC it seems to me that a lot more of the population there is fairly thin than out here in the 'burbs, but you walk everywhere there and you're getting somewhere while you do it. Out here we spend that time sitting in traffic. If we want to walk we have to take extra time out of a very busy day to go out and do it specially. When I'm in the city I only take a cab or subway if the weather is really horrible if I'm going less than twenty blocks and I'm pretty sure I'd be a smaller person if it were possible to walk to work and shopping. I have to admit I hate excercise for the sake of excercise, but I'm not really lazy. I'd rather walk than ride if I have a real destination.
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