What do YOU believe happened on 9/11?

[mot78]

I don't think I've seen a poll on DU regarding what happened. SInce I can't do an official poll, I'm going to do a survey:

If you believe everything that the * admin has told us, press 1

If you believe they're hiding something, but it's not LIHOP or MIHOP, press 2

If you believe in LIHOP (* deliberately let 9/11 happen), press 3

If you believe in MIHOP (* made 9/11 happen, not Al Queda), press 4

On edit: I personally believe in 2.

[Outvoicer]

1. 3

LIHOP = Let It Happen On Purpose

[JailBush]

2. LIHOP at the Very Least

The evidence is simply overwhelming. I lean toward MIHOP, which could involve both Republicans and Al Queda.

[durutti]

20. Overwhelming?

Where is all this overwhelming evidence I keep hearing about?

Seriously. I try to remain open-minded. Throw anything at me.

[worldgonekrazy]

130. I think LIHOP...MIHOP would just be too hard to keep under wraps

I understand the case for MIHOP, and it is a pretty persuasive one. It just seems to me though that too many people would have to know about it.

As for LIHOP though, I am convinced. At the very least it was a result of gross incompetence, which still ought to be enough to hang Bush with.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

4. 2

They're incompetent idiots. They're trying to hide that, but it's just too obvious.

[strauss_sucks]

5. 4

Definitely a Sparkle job.

[coloradodem2005]

6. I have been reading at Gore Vidal's Perpetual War....

...he indicated that the Cheney-Bush Junta wanted to go to war with Afghanistan before 9/11. He also indicated that Bush knew, possibly. It is an interesting read. This particular book goes into some detail about 9/11 and Afghanistan, as well as how Condelezza Rice "forgot" her briefing with Clinton's National Security Advisor on Al Quaeda.

[durutti]

18. Vidal has it wrong.

He should stick to writing novels. Reports that there were plans made to invade Afghanistan prior to 9/11 are unsubstantiated.

This is what happened: former U.S., Russian, Iranian, and Pakistani diplomats met in a Berlin hotel to dicuss what to do about the Taliban. The Pakistani present alleges that the Americans relayed th threat of military action to him, to be passed on to the Taliban.

However, this allegiation remains just that -- an unconfirmed allegation. The three Americans who were present deny that any such threat was made, as (more significantly) does the Russian.

Maybe they're all lying and such a threat was made. But it's just as likely that the Pakistani is doing the lying. Vidal shouldn't be so quick to present unsubstantiated allegations as fact.

[Solomon]

53. durutti you crack me up. I don't mind you keeping your head in the

sand on 9-11 if you want to, but you should at least respect facts and not try to ignore them so much. There was a plan to invade Afghanistan sitting on Bush's desk waiting to be signed BEFORE 9-11.

I know it hurts, but live with it.

[durutti]

75. LOL

I'm not the one who needs to learn to "respect facts".

David Corn of The Nation addresses this claim in this article: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/30/cover-corn.php

Excerpt:

"Item No. 12 on the Ruppert time line is one of the most popular among the 9/11 skeptics. Here Ruppert references a book, Bin Laden: The Forbidden Truth, written by two French authors, Jean-Charles Brisard, a former intelligence employee, and Guillaume Dasquie, a journalist. The pair maintain the 9/11 attacks were the "outcome" of "private and risky discussions" between the United States and the Taliban "concerning geostrategic oil interests." They claim that during the course of secretive international talks concerning Afghanistan, the oil-hungry United States in July 2001 threatened the Taliban with a military strike. Brisard and Dasquie suggest that in response to this threat, bin Laden and the Taliban decided to hit first. But their thesis makes no sense. Did bin Laden pull together the 9/11 plot in two months? Or did bin Laden have all the elements in place but was not about to proceed with this horrific plot until the Bush administration pushed him too far? The authors do not prove their case, and what they dubbed "private and risky discussions" were, in reality, a laudable United Nations multilateral initiative to settle the political and military strife in Afghanistan.

"This book -- the basis of one of Ruppert's most important time line entries -- is a shoddy piece of journalism, most of it completely unsourced. But Ruppert's task is not evaluating data; it's manipulating selected pieces of information that exist in the public record. If it's in print -- or on the Web -- it's good enough to use. Certainly, it is a public service to highlight material that may have slipped through the cracks of the mainstream media. For instance, Ruppert is right to wonder about a brief story that appeared on September 12, 2001, in Izvestia, the Moscow-based newspaper. Citing unnamed sources, the paper reported Moscow had warned Washington of the 9/11 attacks weeks earlier. Was such a warning actually transmitted? If so, who issued the warning and who received it? But a four-paragraph overseas-news item, pulled together in the frantic hours after the 9/11 strikes, is a starting place for investigation, not proof the Bush administration permitted or abetted the attacks. Ruppert does not know the difference between a lead and evidence -- an odd quality for a former police officer."

[Cooley Hurd]

60. Sorry durutti. Read it and weep...

http://www.unansweredquestions.net/timeline/2002/msnbc051602.html
(this story, which first appeared on MSNBC's website, has since been tossed into the memory hole)

<snip>
PLAN WAS READY TO GO

Officials did not believe that Bush had had the opportunity to closely review the document in the two days between its submission and the Sept. 11 attacks. But it had been submitted to national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, and the officials said Bush knew about it and had been expected to sign it.

The couching of the plans as a formal security directive is significant, Miklaszewski reported, because it indicates that the United States intended a full-scale assault on al-Qaida even if the Sept. 11 attacks had not occurred.

Such directives are top-secret documents that are formally drafted only after they have been approved at the highest levels of the White House, and represent decisions that are to be implemented imminently.

Such a directive would normally be approved with the president’s knowledge by his Principals Committee, which in Bush’s White House includes Rice, Attorney General John Ashcroft, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill and CIA Director George Tenet, among other senior administration officials.
</snip>

[librechik]

73. Al Gore wrote the plan in 1998

snip

"But long before the Sept. 11th attacks, the United States had decided to invade Afghanistan in the interest of oil. In February of 1998, at the hearing before a sub-group of the Committee on International Relations, Congress discussed ways to deal with Afghanistan to make way for an oil pipeline. Jane’s Defense News reported in March 2001 that an invasion of Afghanistan was being planned. Times of India reported that in June of 2001, the US Government told India that there would be an invasion of Afghanistan in October of that year. By July of 2001 George Arney, with the BBC, also reported the planned invasion..."

http://www.agrnews.org/issues/190/commentary.html

a snippet from "the most under-reported stories of 2002" as reported by the Ashville Global Report.

[OzarkDem]

81. Huh?

Because right wingers in Congress were talking about invading Afghanistan, that means, Al Gore developed the plan?

Its well known that PNAC had been agitating for invasion for a long time. What does that have to do with Gore?

I guess its true what they say about DU these days - there are a lot of Repub troll disruptors here.

[librechik]

88. outing yourself, eh?

how ingenious!

I happen to know Gore with Clinton's approval helped write "this" plan and submitted to the Bushies through Sandy Berger. The reference I cite discusses some of the plan's origins, although it was obviously altered.

I don't like to talk about it here, because most DUers would prefer to think of Gore as a mild mannered peacenik who would never dream of any agressive actions. My sources tell me they are wrong--Gore would very likely have invaded Aghanistan if elected, even without 9/11. It was part of Clinton's ongoing war on terror--and Bin Laden specifically-- that the Bushies spat on and did everything to undermine. It is the Clinton Administration plan that the Bushies stole "off the shelf" to go to Kabul, once the emergency arose. They certainly didn't spend any time planning war on their business partner Bin Laden on their own!

Frankly, I'm sorta proud of Gore and team for the writing of the plan, even though I'm generally antiwar. I'm thankful he never had to carry it out, because the outcome, as we have all seen, is not so good. It's much better to have the Bush team blamed for that debacle. I'm sure Gore would have done better, since post war civil planning is important to him, unlike Bush, but Afghanistan is a hard nut to crack.

Gore would not have gone on to Iraq. Iraq is the PNAC obsession, not Afghanistan. That's why they were so quick to abandon Afghanistan ansd switch the propoganda mill to demonize Saddam. Gore had no interest in Iraq beyond containing it. If RWers were discussing an invasion in 98, it was Iraq they were thinking about, not puny oil-less Afghanistan.

[Old and In the Way]

103. But then, there was that Enron plant in India that needed a

natural gas pipeline. I'm pretty sure that Ken Lay was working with his Republican friends to make sure his interest was being looked after.

While I have no doubt that Clinton/Gore had tactical plans that were focused on getting OBL in Afghanistan, I don't see the oily fingerprints that characterize late 20th/early 21st century Republican politics.

[Old and In the Way]

104. Do share your sources Librechik!

"would very likely have invaded Aghanistan if elected, even without 9/11."

I recall nothing that Clinton Gore did in 8 years, nor anything that Gore said in his campaign that was setting the table for an invasion. Were their fast reaction forward bases for developing surgical strikes? Yes, I believe that may well have been prepared...but military invasions to liberate oil seem to be the province of Republicans, not Democrats....

[OzarkDem]

116. Really interesting

This is sooo different, librechick is pretty good at disrupting. Kind of hard to get anyone to believe that Gore wanted to invade Afghanistan for oil, though. Quite a stretch. I've read a lot on the internet, but somehow missed that one.

[worldgonekrazy]

132. Well the argument is that Afghanistan was the key too...

oil in the Caspian Sea Basin (which, according to the US Dept of Energy, amounts to 3% of the world's proven reserves). The United States needed to be able to run a pipeline from there to the Gulf, which, to do so, they would have had to go through Afghanistan because of the surrounding (mountainous) terrain.

The problem, so the theory goes, was that Afghanistan was not secure enough for the pipeline under the Taliban. Thus a U.S. invasion gave a pre-text to build and guard said pipeline.

It is interesting to note that a pipeline has indeed been built, and others are being planned that will route the oil to Pakistan via Afghanistan and Turkmenistan.

[King_Crimson]

108. Careful DemGirl...

These mods will give you a good scolding for accusing someone of being a RePuke! I mentioned the other day that I thought I smelled one and they outted my post and sent me a "warning"!

[OzarkDem]

115. A shame you don't recognize it

I've actually watched right wingers at work troll and post here. They think its really funny that Dems are so liberal, they're easily fooled.

Sorry, thought I was offering helpful information. At least I tried. Its a shame, this used to be a pretty good forum.

[Old and In the Way]

120. Howlin' Wolf is correct......careful with your accusations

I just got dinged too.....

[OzarkDem]

128. So the mods like Repub trolls?

I'm confused, see, I'm a Democrat. I thought DU was for Democrats, not Republican trolls. Guess I was wrong.

As I said, I wouldn't have brought the subject up if I hadn't personally witnessed Repub trolls posting here. Its not as if I have a reputation as a disruptor, I don't.

DU, RU, what's the diff?

[ddye]

129. Well?

Just because Bush believes something does not automatically make it wrong. When I heard about the way the Taliban treated women, and their other disgusting crimes, I wanted to invade them too!

Sorry, animals like that do not need a U.N. "mandate".

[Mistress Quickly]

7. 2 n/t

[durutti]

8. 2

Of course we won't have the whole story until decades from now, when documents are declassified. But I've seen no convincing evidence of a conspiracy.

[Old and In the Way]

23. By your definition, it's a conspiracy to evade responsibility for

their incompetence on 9/11. These people were derelict in their duty and 3,000 Americans died. What's your threshhold for impeachment? Do 30,000 have to die? 300,000?

I'd think you'd be outraged by their lack of competence and the fact that no one has been reprimended or found responsible for allowing this to happen.

The only thing that saves this guy's ass is his majority Party co-conspirators in the House and Senate.

They can impeach an effective and popular President for having an extramartial tryst, but they won't put this little unelected dictator under oath to ask him what he knew about warnings prior to 9/11 that led directly to the deaths of 3,000 people.

[foxy]

94. Who's responsible?

Actually...

[Old and In the Way]

98. Big Oil, PNAC, the Bush Administration, the Carlyle Group

Somewhere in this mix is the answer, IMHO.

But we will only figure who's responsible when we are prepared to confront the reality of what are policy priorities were over the past 25 years. A complete and open criminal investigation, with an Independent Prosecutor, who will put anyone and everyone in (and out of) this administration under oath to answer some tough questions might help, too.

[wanderingbear]

9. Bush set it all up

to insure that he could start a war in the middle east and steel oil reserves for himself..

[cliss]

10. 4

I think they did it. Just look closely at their eyes. Listen to their words. And watch their actions. I was fooled, I'll admit it. Those were some frightening days after 9/11, trying to sort out what happened.

Gradually, the fog lifted. I'm pretty clear on what happened.

[kreg]

11. YOU ARE MAKING US LOOK BAD!

Evil people exist.

No matter how much I hate the current admin's activities....I just can't believe that any American would truly let 9/11 happen if they knew about it. So let me press "2" on this.

If I was president and I knew that a 747 was gonna land on bush's ranch, I WOULD DO EVERYTHING I COULD TO STOP IT. (If I was unable, and it blew that piece of land to smithereens, maybe I wouldn't be entirely pissed, but I'd be damned if I would just let it happen.)

I know about the mounds of evidence leading up to 9/11, but I really can't believe that he KNEW it was going to happen, and just let it slide for political gain. I don't think anyone would have done that. Maybe I have too much faith in the basic goodness of people, but scr*w corporate greed and all that, no one is going to just let that happen.

[BurtWorm]

12. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

I don't think there's much goodness in the Bushists. I don't think goodness had anything to do with their reaction to 9/11. Incompetence, I think, was at heart what it was all about. They weren't ready to think about foreign policy yet, so they put it all on the back burner while gearing up for task two, year two. They're only capable of doing one big task a year. Year 1 was the tax cut. Year two was probably going to be the faith based bullshit. Year three was going to be the Iraq war. But I can't believe they were competent enough, let alone evil enough, to cause 9-11 in some way to have an excuse set up for invading Iraq.

[JailBush]

15. You can't believe any Americans are that evil???

You wrote, "I just can't believe that any American would truly let 9/11 happen if they knew about it."

Come on! We know that many Americans are willing - even eager - to kill hundreds of thousands, even millions, of foreign nationals. Just look at Vietnam and Cambodia, or the war we egged on between Iran and Iraq. Consider some of the coups and torture extravaganzas the U.S. has sponsored.

Of course, most of our victims weren't U.S. citizens. But SO WHAT? Murder is murder. And how DOES our government feel about U.S. citizens?

Look at the millions of children who are viciously exploited in public schools. Consider racism and our government's willingness to deprive us of our civil liberties.

"Maybe I have too much faith in the basic goodness of people, but scr*w corporate greed and all that, no one is going to just let that happen."

Yes, you DO have too much faith in people's basic goodness. Hell, there are members of the Seattle School Board and Seattle teachers union who would have gladly collaborated on 9/11 if the price was right. I've looked into their eyes - literally; these people have no souls.

[ddye]

136. I can't believe it either

Look, I know you guys are hardcore and all that, but get a grip. Bush isn't Satan, and Republicans don't cook and eat babies.

9/11 occurred because of some very evil people, who did not happen to be Republicans, as warm and fuzzy as it may make you feel.

[wanderingbear]

16. You dont know Bush the way I do..

If you did you would know hes very capable of this.

[Terwilliger]

19. why did Condi say...post 9/11...that nobody thought of flying planes...

into buildings?

Why did she say that?

Now, her saying that isn't proof of any LIHOP, necessarily, but saying unequivocally that no one had even thought of such an idea before 9/11 was an outright lie.

Was it simply CYA, or something else?

[BurtWorm]

21. Because she's an idiot?

Like the rest of the Bushists? :shrug:

[Terwilliger]

22. you think they're idiots?

they're in control and getting away with murder...not really indicative of idiots

Condi didn't say that for no reason at all.

[BurtWorm]

24. Yeah, I do.

Most of them are hacks, with a couple of evil geniuses and narcissistic egomaniacs thrown in. But I can't believe they're ingenious enough to have MIHOP or even LIHOP. I think they got bitten in the ass by a monster Bush's daddy and his pals created in the 1980s to sow some chaos in Afghanistan.

[Terwilliger]

26. hacks in control of the government

LIHOP doesn't really require ingenuity. Simply sitting around waiting for something to happen is all that's required.

[BurtWorm]

27. I agree they took advantage of what was thrown in their laps.

Which indicates that they did have some big plans to curtail civil liberties and engage the US in war against Islam, perhaps, for oil and strategic position. But I can't believe they were conscious of how they were going to use 9-11 when it happened. From where I sat, it looked like they got slammed in the belly. Rove may have been working day after day after day on how to make Bush look good despite himself, against Bush's will. They may have sat down in the aftermath and said, "You know that PNAC plan to get Saddam that we were saving until year 3? Let's see if we can use this to get there."

The difference between a hack and a pro is that the hack acts after the fact, like a scavenger picking at carrion.

[Old and In the Way]

29. How about this?

The players got played.

This administration seemed to go out of its way to stymie intelligence from getting into the WH. I think that was because they had their own intel (remember, Poppy was head of CIA in the 70's). I remember reading that we had CIA assets in AQ prior to 9/11.....that story went down the memory hole quite quickly.

I think their intel was perceived to be very good and they thought they understood what the planned "event" was. I'll bet their intel was telling them a spectacular hijacking event was planned. And this would provide the justification they'd need to get their Afghanistan War underway ("carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs"). COndi volunteeered that the Executive order to go after the Taliban were on the President's desk awaiting his signature. All they needed was a reason.

But I suspect that OBL and his group knew about these assets and fed them bogus information. I think they were fully prepared for a dramatic hijacking that would be a made for TV event. That's why the AF stood down that day.

I guess this is the LIHOP varient, but I doubt that they knew the planes would be going into buildings....I can't believe Dimson would be so dumb to say " I saw the 1st plane on TV hit the tower, I thought that was one bad pilot." I don't think they put it together, until after the 2nd plane hit....then George shat his pants and they flew around the country for 6 hours trying to reconstruct a new story.

[Junkdrawer]

52. Bing. Bing. Bing. WE HAVE A WINNER...

Yep. And this also explains the FBI interference revealed in the summer of 2002. I really don't think they wanted to lose the World Trade Centers - but I still believe what they did is treason punishable by death. Which, by the way, is one of the chief reasons that every method, fair or foul, will be used by this gang of criminals to retain power.

[demodewd]

111. re:dimson

Your take that dimson didn't know the full extent of the day's "activities" is dead on...I wonder if any of the inner WH circle were in on the MIHOP(in my judgement) plan. Once it progressed and Card informed him of the second crash,Bush probably just froze...he knew he couldn't do anything to stop it.. Did you see the live coverage at the oval office I believe on the 12th. Bush really was ticked off..I've often wondered who he was really ticked off at.

[Old and In the Way]

119. Plausible Deniability

I think they kept George out of the loop as much as possible...."out of the loop", gee, who'd we here that staement uttered from in the past? The same guy that spent the evening of 9/10 in the White House while his son was in Florida!

I'm thinking they even had him utter that friable statement about seeing that "one terrible pilot on TV" to get us all thinking that he was in on it....disinformation tactic to get us sidetracked.

[glitch]

137. Which flight was 20 minutes late taking off?

I heard about that and wondered about his sitting in the classroom. Waiting for the last bit of the plan to complete?

What about 5 - when did the bushes break up with bin ladens?

My old sig line, revived just for this thread:

911 / incompetent + complicit = impeach

[ProfessorGAC]

126. I Could Sign On To That Hypothesis

I think it's the dangerous combination of hubris and incompetence that led to this total breakdown of security.

Your hypothesis would provide the basis of the incompetence. We know about their hubris. No theory needs to be posited to demonstrate that.
The Professor

[Solomon]

54. No, T, it's because they think WE are

stupid. That's why she said it.

[chromotone]

131. Because she wasn't under oath...

But now with the threat of subpoenas, she's rethinking her comments.

[Old and In the Way]

25. That's the problem.

Welcome aboard kreg.

He did nothing to stop it. He sat in his chair reading goat stories with 2nd graders for 20 minutes AFTER being told about the 2nd plane hitting the WTC.

It's on tape. He sat there...like he was on script. He sat, just like the AF. They allowed 77 to hit 52+ minutes AFTER the 1st plane hit the WTC.

Sorry, but if this isn't LIHOP, then it's MIHOP.

[BurtWorm]

31. It seems more like utter stupidity and uselessness to me.

He just didn't know what to do with himself except read at a first grade level. And the hacks he had with him didn't know enough to get him out of there and at least hide until they had a prepared statement to read.

[Old and In the Way]

34. The perfect front man, I think.

They even had him say something so stupid that he should have been subpeoned on the spot..."I saw the 1st plane hit on TV, that was one bad pilot". What a line!

No, I think he's the perfect dummy for the neo-cons that manipulate him like Charlie McCarthy. Yes, he plays the incompetent role very, very well. That's precisely what they wanted for this role...

[slor]

51. The important part of that line...

is the fact that that the first plane was not shown hitting the tower until the next day.

[ima_sinnic]

41. what's with the excessive capitalization, and of that particular question?

what's this "you're making us look bad" stuff that is suddenly(?) popping up in these threads about 9/11 conspiracy? are "we" tired of hearing about "ourselves" from certain radio gas bags?

[LeahMira]

58. Remember...

I know about the mounds of evidence leading up to 9/11, but I really can't believe that he KNEW it was going to happen, and just let it slide for political gain. I don't think anyone would have done that. Maybe I have too much faith in the basic goodness of people, but scr*w corporate greed and all that, no one is going to just let that happen.

Kreg, apparently in regard to corporate greed and such you don't remember the Pinto story. Ford Corporation knew at some point that the Pinto was designed in such a way that its gas tank would likely explode in a relatively otherwise minor traffic accident. Ford's wizards figured the odds of this sort of accident happening, then figured what the company would wind up paying out in wrongful death lawsuits, and then compared that cost to the cost of retooling the assembly lines to eliminate the problem. They decided that it would be more cost-effective to pay out the wrongful death costs than to retool, and that's what they did. They just let those deaths "slide" for corporate gain.

I believe that even before 9/11 the administration, the PNAC fellows, the oil guys, and probably a few others had estimated the costs of war in the Middle East and factored those costs against the potential profit in oil as well as the benefits in U.S. hegemony in the Middle East and in the world. Guess which wound up as more "cost-effective?"

As for what the administration knew about 9/11, I believe they chose to ignore any warnings because, in their arrogance, they really believed that no one would dare attack the U.S. on its own soil. I believe the invasions in the Middle East were a done deal long before 9/11 though. I think the administration figured that if Al Qaeda actually did dare to try something within the borders of the country it would speed up the plan to invade, but even if 9/11 had never happened the plan was still on. IOW, it was a win-win situation for the guys making the decisions. They got what they wanted either way.

[Cooley Hurd]

64. They let it happen on purpose...

...but they had no idea of how much of damage, or how many would die. They were probably shocked as much as we were by the amount of destruction, but that doesn't change the fact that they let it happen on purpose, so they could gain the political edge and ramrod legislation thru congress, as well as justify military action against both Afhanistan and Iraq. And it's a fact that Sec of Defense and PNAC signatory Rumsfeld was quick to try to tie Iraq to the attacks (his attempt to do so came just days after 9/11)so they could justify an invasion of that country (as dictated by the PNAC charter)

You might want to google "Operation Northwoods" to get an idea to what lengths our govt has gone to use "LIHOP/MIHOP" as a precursor to going to war (in the case of Operation Northwoods, it was to be a MIHOP operation).

[Octafish]

66. "Al Qaeda Set to Strike in the United States."

Wasn't that the name of the President's Daily Briefing, delivered to Smirko in Crawford in August 2001, where he was hiding on a month-long vacation after being in office six months? Notice how the title is now-scrubbed from 9-11 reportage.

Here's a nice overview, courtesy of a Mr. John D:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Impeachment/DeanOn911Report.html

[AngryAmish]

123. There is a reason you are not a Repuke

You are not evil. Evil does exist and we get to watch it on Fox everyday.

[Terwilliger]

13. possibly 2, 3, or 4

but we'll never know, so why keep asking?

[Dragon Turtle]

14. (3) LIHOP or maybe

(4) MIHOP

[bushedout]

17. I believe Islamokazifacists did it.

On purpose. I hold them responsible.

[AndyTiedye]

28. If It Weren't 3 At Least, They Wouldn't Be Stonewalling So Much--Looks Bad

LIHOP or MIHOP

[durutti]

30. That doesn't follow.

More likely, they're covering up their own incompetence.

[FDRrocks]

33. OT! Hey you are still posting!

Welcome back! :)

[Sugarbleus]

32. 3

My ignorance is showing....what is LIHOP and MIHOP?

I think they were looking for a reason to go to war=dominate the world=PNAC

[spychoactive]

35. i got this one ;)

LIHOP=let it happen on purpose

MIHOP=made it happen on purpose

[bubba_fett]

36. darn...

I was trying to work "house of pancakes" into that acronym somehow...

[spychoactive]

37. LIHOP=...

LIHOP=liberal international house of pancakes...

sorry bubba...

i don't like to step on jokes...

:)

[bubba_fett]

38. step away!

:)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

40. LIHOP = Long Island House of Pancakes

MIHOP = Michigan House of Pancakes. I'm sorry, it's late (or early I guess).

:evilgrin: :bounce:

[AngryAmish]

125. mmm, pancakes

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. Somewhere between 2 and 4?

I'm not sure how distinct "Al Qaeda" and the Bush family's international network (from Iran/Contra to BCCI to the Bin Laden Constuction Corporation of Saudi Arabia) are from each other, so depending on what that is, it could be closer to four.

At a minimum, we know that the Bush administration was either negligent or complicit in 911, the only question is how much of each.

[Piperay]

42. #3

I believe they KNEW something would happen and decided to just let it happen. In fairness I don't think they had any idea it would be anything as horrendus as what happened. I believe they were thinking it would be something like a hijacking and hostage situation, which would have been disgusting enough. :mad:

[Old and In the Way]

76. But in all fairness to the victims, they are still dead and this administr

is suspect in allowing those deaths to occur. That stills makes them guilty of violating their oath to protect and defend the Constitution and the American people. These arrogant bastards were quite willing to let an event occur (I do think they believed it was a planned hijacking)...the results were not planned, but that does not change their culpability.

This LIHOP scenario was tied to the Cheney secret energy policy meetings. They were planning to get the US into the ME as soon as possible. This "event" was going to serve their business interests nicely. For that they all should be hanged as a reminder that treason is still a reason for capital punishment.

[Dogmudgeon]

43. Two and One Half

They didn't have it together enough for a true LIHOP, but since so many of the house PNACers were hoping for a "Pearl Harbor", it was more convenient to just ignore certain things.

Like eight years of successful Clinton counter-terrorist work.

LIHBDN - They Let It Happen By Doing Nothing.

IMHO, of course.

--bkl

[rumguy]

44. I see a negligence that borders on LIHOP

but really it's the lack of any real investigation that leads me to think that...

A real investigation has got to happen, and it will, one of these days.

[WilliamPierce]

45. 4 . Alqaeda supports US foreign policy.

I don't buy that Airforce standown "FAIRY TALE" theory.

[rumguy]

46. well you can splice it any way ya want

but that memo on Rice's desk shows they had a warning...

remember Payne Stewart's jet? funny how they got up planes to intercept that wayward jet, yet over the most heavily guarded piece of real estate on the plant fighters didn't get up effectively actived until it was far to late. We're not talking minutes here...we're talking almost an hour!

[Undecided Okie]

47. Yes

I believe it happened as we have been told.

[rumguy]

49. well that's good for ya!

congrats!

[rman]

48. 5: caused Al Queda to do it, then let it happen

-

[ParticipatoryDem]

56. How on earth does one cause Al Queda to do it

Threaten them with bodily harm if they don't attack us?

[moondust]

61. You use

Poppy's old connections at the CIA to use the CIA's old connections with al Qaeda to make them an offer they will not refuse.

[RBHam]

50. LIHOP - with malice aforethought

think payne stewart - then think: where were they an hour after the wtc attacks, when the 3rd hijacked plane, allegedly, slammed into the pentagon? why was dickie meyers promoted from top air force general to the head of the joint chiefs? for failing his country on 9-11? hmmm...

it gets deeper.

bookmark these:

http://physics911.org/net/modules/
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html#what_actually_happened
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/anti-war.htm)
http://serendipity.ptpi.net/wot/holmgren/11.htm
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://wtc7.net
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc7>
http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=82574&group=webcast
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4582.htm
http://www.radiofreeamerica.tv/video/2003-12-12/911-group.swf
http://news.globalfreepress.com/
http://www.911-strike.com/
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=22004
http://home.comcast.net/~skydrifter/exp.htm
http://whatreallyhappened.com/blackmail.html
http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?disc=149495;article=45885;title=APFN

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/bond-o05.shtml
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/dayof911.html
http://www.media-criticism.com/Baltimore_Sun_911_Letter_09_2003.html
http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=44629&group=webcast

[thehonesttruth]

55. 2

like all theories that grow with lack of proof, LIHOP, is a queer lack of facts, and testimony, while it is long on coincidences and intellectual leaps of faith. i don't say it couldn't be, but as with the JFK plots, why hasn't someone dropped a bomb of proof, 40 years and even bobby, when alive and in government, nor ted has been able to find out, had someone confess,or called for a larger investigation.
but sadly, this is seen as "proof" of how big and evil the plot is

[moondust]

57. Qualified 3.

CIA guy: Mr. Puke, we have reports here from our intelligence agencies and from those of our Allies that say al Qaeda is planning an attack in the near future that may possibly involve hijacking some airliners and flying them into tall buildings or national monuments.

Mr. Puke: Oh yes, we've heard a lot of these before. They come out of the Clinton intelligence bureaucracy. We're planning to review all aspects of those intelligence organizations so that they can be trimmed down to size and become productive again. Cut out the waste and duplication of effort, you know. Maybe later contract some of it out to private concerns. Right now we're very busy mapping out our tax cuts and frankly we can't afford to spend time straightening out all these intelligence issues. We'll give you a call when we're ready to move on this.


Boom.

[name not needed]

59. 3

i believe bush could have stopped it from happening but did nothing because it would boost his approval ratings.

[nostamj]

62. ask yourself a simple question

Who benefitted from 9/11?

remember, the bush* presidency was in freefall on 9/10 and the Fl fraud was about to be exposed.

only one man admits to 'sleeping great' that night
only one man said 2001 was 'a fabulous year'
only one man joked about 'hitting the trifecta'

the arrogant refusal to investigate this horror is all the evidence anyone should need to continue the fight to demand that investigation.

if it wasn't going to hurt bushco, it would have been done by now.

[Octafish]

63. 4 -- "Pearl Harbor of our time."

That's how it was staged and that's the way the media ran with it.

Look up the PNAC (Project for a New American Century) stuff. These guys want power, petroleum and ready cash. That's all they want. They don't care who they kill in the process.

How do you explain thousands of innocent people killed in revenge in Afghanistan and Iraq? The blood of their murders, as well as the thousands of innocents killed on September 11, 2001, are on the hands of the BFEE.

[FreakinDJ]

65. LIHOP LIHOP LIHOP

Just like Tom Dashel said

" he could not have benifited any more politicaly then for the events of 911 to happen"

911 was a winfall for Bushit pure and simple. One of those things just to good to be true for his agenda.

[leftofthedial]

67. Try this MIHOP theory on for size

There is a group--a loose aggregation or "conspiracy" if you will--that believes they can control the world through the "end times" (the end of the industrial age as peak oil declines to no oil; the end of the Christian era) through military geopolitical dominance. Their best tool for accomplishing this is to control the mightiest nation on the planet--America--though the group itself is non-national, certainly not truly American. It includes and uses many Americans, but it has no interest in nationalism of any kind except as a tool for manipulating large groups of people to further its aims.

This is a very long-term plan, spanning generations of the same families and corporations. Although the group is much larger than and controls the Bush regime, I call the group the Bush GOPNAC Cabal. This Cabal has slowly and successfully infiltrated all three branches of the US government, the worldwide media (especially the US media), the US military, the US intelligence and security services, worldwide religious organizations (especially fundamentalist organizations), and numerous foreign governments. It has seized control of the Republican Party and through them now controls the US government.

The Bush regime is the political front. PNAC is the "academic" front. The US-European neoconservative movement is their PR and recruiting campaign. The "war" on "terror" is equal parts an umbrella for one phase of the execution of this plan and a smokescreen and US domestic disinformation campaign. Al Qaeda doesn't exist in any real sense. It is a name loosely applied by the Cabal to whatever "enemies" the Bush GOPNAC Cabal and their partners decide to market as the new "bad guy." (Boogeymen are necessary to unite a nation in a crusade. 9-11 gave them a whopper of a launch for the new improved post-Cold War "boogeyman.") So far, al Qaeda has included "fundamentalist Islamic" or "terrorist" groups, but the BUSH GOPNAC Cabal will (and do) try to apply the label to any enemies, soon to include domestic peace activists and political opponents. Labeling enemies "al Qaeda" or "terrorist" greatly simplifies the marginalization and elimination of that enemy. They still persist in trying to forge linkage between "al Qaeda" and Saddam Hussein, for example. Jose Padilla is a US citizen test case for this as well.

The Bush GOPNAC Cabal planned and executed the attacks of 9-11. It is the lynchpin and foundational cornerstone of their plan.

Any specific individual was aware of only part of the plan. George Bush, for example, probably knew very little. The Cabal may well have manipulated Islamic fundamentalists to carry out hijackings as part of the 9-11 operation. This fragmentation of awareness and involvement gives the appearance of gross negligence or of LIHOP, but make no mistake. The Cabal did it.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

68. I agree.

My position is this
DIFFAP
Did It For Fun And Profit.

The whole * crew and all that spawned it for the last forty years are criminals.

[spychoactive]

69. may i ask a question leftof thedial?

for you what does GOPNAC signify???

so would your theory tie into any of the 'illuminati' and 'new world order' theories i have heard...

i am not being a smartass, or baiting, i am simply not afraid to admit i do not know something, and am not afraid to ask questions, how else will i learn??

reply off list if you want to, i'd love to here more of what you think, it's facinating to me

one 'love
spike

thanks

[RBHam]

71. let's guess!

gop = republicants

nac = narcissistic arsehole cabal?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

121. PNAC = Project for a New American Century

I'm assuming you know this, but lots of people post everyday asking exactly what the acronyms mean :)

[neebob]

74. I have two problems with this

First, the degree of control attributed to this Cabal, which discounts the capability and commitment of people like OBL and his followers, and second, the fragmented awareness part. Somebody has to know the whole plan. Who is it? I just have a hard time believing there are a handful of individuals with that much influence as opposed to, say, a smallish group of like-minded individuals who happened to seize power and were able to use the actions of another group to their advantage.

[Old and In the Way]

77. Did you know the CIA sold OBL a military transport jet in the 80's?

OBL was a CIA asset in the original Afghan-Russian. Interesting that we've done 2 important things for OBL/Al-Qaeda since 9/11:

(1) Deposed SH as head of the secular state of Iraq. The degree of the theocratic state is still to be determined. The opportunity to create a pan-Islamic state in the ME has never been better.

(2) We've left Saudi Arabia and transfered our bases to Iraq.

I wonder if OBL will be sending Christmas cards to the Bush family this year?

[leftofthedial]

78. i do believe they use the actions of other groups to their advantage

I think they even aid and encourae the actions of others when it is to their advantage. 9-11 was one of thowse occasions. But it could not have happened "successfully" without assistance.

I also don't believe it happened the way the mythology tells us it did.

[leftofthedial]

80. they don't have ultimate control over everything

they just have a plan and LOTS of resources. This plan so far has given them control over the US government through their stooges, the Republican Party.

I know very little about the various theories and myths related to the Illuminati and others. I find them interesting, but I don't know who or what those groups really are. The Cabal may include some of the same individuals for all I know, but it's not the same thing at all. This is a loosely organized group of "business" people. latter-day or wannabe "aristocrats," ultra-rightists and others with agendae that share common elements. They don't act as a regular, organized group, exerting overt control over their agents. Rather, they massively fund those who do or who agree to do the things they like done and they massively fund opposition to those who don't. Various elements in the Cabal also engage directly in overt and covert ops like assassinations, murders, "terrorist" acts, large business deals that further their control, etc.

You could call it a "conspiracy" I suppose, but I think it's more of a movement, like a large family of businesses or an organized religion.

[neebob]

70. #3-4

I believe they knew some airliners were going to be hijacked and crashed into buildings, possibly the WTC, and they not only let it happen but also did nothing to stop it after it started, except maybe shoot down Flight 93. And in the sense that they failed to issue warnings, they made it happen.

[Bushknew]

72. 4

[PATRICK]

79. For now

I am sure at the least the reality was IWH(it will happen) which in their twisted logic changed from mathematical probability to policy. They chose to link everything they wanted to do, much of which has little to do with national security in any way a citizen would think it, to the aftermath. Any signs of impending attacks would be ignored if only by averted gaze focused on Certain Response(topple over the dominoes starting with Saddam's oil nation to give power and money to Empire). As we have seen- I repeat, as we have seen- once poised and nothing happens, they will regroup and repeat waiting for the next opportunity. Lately they had egg on their faces. Transparently they were ready again for the capture of Saddam and it came through. At other times they have not.

911 meant nothing except opportunity realized for which they were not to blame and told themselves they could not prevent- or if they did it would only be a matter of time. As usual, they hide their reasoning in a perversion of intelligence and reversal of human values.

How their attitiude and practical indifference leaked down to worse crimes like LIHOP, or MIHOP is a matter of criminal degree and a difference in jail time or death penalty. But the coverup is universal and total for all their goals too.

[LunaC]

82. Absolutely, positively MIHOP (Look at the timeline......)

In June 1997, the Plan for a New American Century (PNAC) was born. Populated by influential Movers of industry and Shakers of public opinion, the PNAC is an organization united in the vision for a global U.S. empire - "Pax Americana" - through coercion and military domination. Their philosophy can be simply summarized:

- There are countries to plunder and fortunes to be made You have it, we want it. Do as we say or suffer the consequences..
- The U.S. already has a powerful military but we plan to nurture and grow it until it's massive and we are indominable. Resistance is futile. We are.......

Dick Cheney, Jeb Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Steve Forbes, William J. Bennett, Frank Gaffney, and I. Lewis Libby, signator's - among others - of the PNAC's "Statement of Principles".

- We need to...challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values."

- "We need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future."

- "It is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge." - Statement of Principles

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

JANUARY 1998 - The PNAC knew that he who owns the oil also owns the world so they sent a letter to President Clinton urging him to attack Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power since he put "a significant portion of the world's supply of oil at hazard". Clinton didn't grant them their wish and the PNAC was disheartened that they couldn't manipulate the military while outside of the White House power structure.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

MARCH - APRIL 1999 - In an effort to capture and control the castle and all its warriors and weapons, the PNAC offered up members Steve Forbes, Dan Quayle and Gary Bauer to run as Republican candidates in the upcoming Presidential election.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/election/profile.htm

JUNE 1999 - Ever persistent and determined to maximize their potential for success in the Presidential campaign, the PNAC exercised their power of nepotism and member-Jeb Bush's brother George stepped up to the plate to join the race.

SPRING 2000 - The PNAC may have felt confident with their candidate's chances for winning the White House but they were absolutely smug over what they saw as a possible Fallback Plan...electronic voting machines with severe security flaws that included hidden backdoors, erasable audit trails and multiple vote totals with the potential to propel vote tampering to new heights through the magic of remote access.

How To Rig An Election In The United States - http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm
Can the votes be changed? - http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm

Bettter yet, Chuck Hagel - a fellow Republican loyalist - owned the ES&S voting machine company that counted 60% of all U.S. votes. He had already won one election and was part of the U.S. Senate power team in Washington.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0301/S00166.htm

Assured that the White House would soon be theirs, the PNAC debuted their 76-page blueprint to achieve world domination. "Rebuilding America's Defenses" became the PNAC's manifesto, detailing the ideal level of military power to specifically eliminate the hostile regimes of Iraq, Iran, Syria and North Korea and it endorsed pre-emptive strikes against them, tradition be damned. Iraq was given star billing as Control Central for their Mideast base of operations.

- At present the United States faces no global rival. America’s grand strategy should aim to
preserve and extend this advantageous position as far into the future as possible."

- "American landpower is the essential link in the chain that translates U.S. military
supremacy into American geopolitical preeminence. "

- "We cannot allow North Korea, Iran, Iraq or similar states to undermine American
leadership."

- "While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need
for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime
of Saddam Hussein."

What is particularly foreboding and chilling in view of events to later unfold, is this statement bemoaning the lengthy process of rebuilding the existing U.S. military according to the heightened standards and specifications the PNAC aspired to.

- ...the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely
to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl
Harbor."

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm

NOVEMBER 2000 - Saddam may have sensed an ill wind in the air when he made the first strike, turned his back on the U.S. Dollar and accepted only Euros as payment for his oil. This had the potential of seriously destabilizing the U.S. economy and the PNAC considered this an hostile act of aggression towards their personal and business interests. The heat was on for them to make their first move.

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2000/11/01112000160846.asp

DECEMBER 2000 - In a highly contentious Presidential vote battle on the home turf of PNAC-Jeb Bush, the Supreme Court decided that George Bush was the new President. How George W. Bush Won the 2004 Presidential Election - http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html

Bush now had the green light to seamlessly merge members of the PNAC into his Administration with no one the wiser. PNAC members elevated to the Bush hierarchy include, among others:

- Donald Rumsfeld - Secretary of Defense
- Paul Wolfowitz - Deputy Secretary of Defense
- Elliott Abrams - Member of the National Security Council
- John Bolton - Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security
- Richard Perle - Chairman of the advisory Defense Policy Board
- Richard Armitage - Deputy Secretary of State
- John Bolton - Undersecretary of State for Disarmament
- Zalmay Khalilzad - White House liaison to the Iraqi opposition

An Honorable Mention was awarded to Condoleeza Rice - National Security Advisor - who is a former oil-company consultant having been on the board of directors of Chevron as its main expert on Kazakhstan.

The PNAC agenda had now passed "Go". The most powerful military machine in the world stood at their ready and Saddam was in the crosshair.

"It is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge."

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm

Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html

In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html

In September 2001 the catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked. The finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160

The PNAC had scored a home run with the bases loaded with the 911 event: shock, horror and fear gripped the nation, the war on "terrorism" had been established in no uncertain terms, attacking Afghanistan with public approval was a foregone conclusion and the stage was set for building a public case against Saddam.

Not one to let a good attack go to waste, Defense Secretary and PNAC-member Donald H. Rumsfeld sprung into action.

- He told his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq, even though Saddam wasn't linked to the attacks.
- PNAC-James Woolsey, former CIA director, was dispatched to London to look for and 'firm up' evidence of Iraqi involvement in the 911 attacks.
- PNAC-member and Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz was authorized to create the Office of Special Plans.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml

"It is important to shape circumstances..........." - PNAC Statement of Principles

The Office of Special Plans (OSP) was a secret group of analysts and policy advisors with no status in the intelligence community who reported directly to the White House and National Security office with cherry-picked intelligence from questionable sources to support the case for invading Iraq. The OSP circumvented formal, well-established oversight procedures, ignored intelligence that didn't further their agenda, expanded the intelligence on weapons beyond what was justified and over-emphasized the national security risk. They became more influential than the C.I.A. or the Defense Intelligence Agency who didn't even know the ultra-secret OSP existed for at least a year.

Because they were based in the Pentagon, it was assumed that the OSP was an intelligence-gathering agency that was second-guessing the C.I.A. but in actuality it was the White House Military Marketing Machine charged with the task of writing the PNAC's "Get Saddam" sales pitch for the public. Shading and bending reality to suit their own purpose, it wasn't important for the OSP's stories about Saddam to be factual, only that the average American believed them to be - in true Hollywood fashion.

http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/030512fa_fact

While the nation was stripped to the emotional bone and painfully vulnerable, the White House capitalized on the opportunity to reshape public perceptions and responses to conform with the PNAC's new American agenda. Rather than buoy the "can do" American spirit with optimism and hope for the future as Presidents before him had done in times of crisis, Bush spoke with an alarmist and pessimistic tone that served to perpetuate the high anxiety, excitability and fear in the populace.

To hear him speak, the world was a dark, evil and dangerous place....terrorism was here to stay....it would be a long struggle....America was helpless without the military might of the Government to keep the nation safe. The intent was to create a psychologically broken, weary and docile populace that would be easier to lead into war.

Fear became the Administration's strategic tactic for reprogramming the public into accepting the PNAC's militaristic designs. Still shell-shocked and exhausted from the enormity of the WTC and Pentagon tragedies, the public's panic shifted into frenzied over-drive when anthrax-laced envelopes arrived in government and media offices, killing five people. A perpetrator was never identified but the investigation eventually centered around the Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick, one of the nation's main anthrax research centers.

Using classic "operant learning" techniques from the realm of consumer psychology, the public was purposely kept on High Alert and continually "shaped" with ominous sound bites on the nightly news and "Level Orange Terror Alerts" at regularly scheduled but discrete intervals.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/130534_focusecond13.html
http://www.consumerpsychologist.com/#Perception

In October 2001. with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "war on terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting

Immediately afterwards the PNAC and White House collaboration of "GET SADDAM"played relentlessly on televisions and in newspapers across the nation as the "War on Terror" waged on and the litany of lies began.

===========================

The "War on Terrorism" is a complete fabrication! The only terrorists we have to fear are the evil folks entrenched in the White House!

[RBHam]

83. Just the begining, too

the pnacers have condemned our children and perhaps their children to an endless "War Of Terror" with a nebulous, ever shifting enemy terrifying the sheeple into accepting de facto imperial agression and colonozation, domestic martial law and one party rule.

so obvious, it defies comprehension that anybody fails to see it.

[Old and In the Way]

102. Excellent Compilation!

This is detailed enough, but not so voluminous as to make the storyline unreadable for ADD-types. I'll be borrowing this to share with people who still don't geyt it (if you don't mind!)

[LunaC]

117. Please feel free to share it all you want!

I appreciate your interest and willingness to pass it around......the more exposure, the better!

[proud patriot]

84. 3

[ErasureAcer]

85. A friend of mine in the military says the Pennsylvania plane was shot down

He heard the orders over a radio himself or so he says.

[stickdog]

86. 3 (nt)

[bobthedrummer]

87. 3

LIHOP

[Catherine Vincent]

89. #2

Bush knew something, that's for sure.

[Q]

90. Most people who 'just can't believe' the Bushies allowed the attack...

...to happen haven't waded through the reams of evidence in support of that 'theory'.

- But even if you can't get behind the evidence being aired by the families of the victims of 9-11...the very least you should be aware of is the long time personal/business relationship of the Bush - Saudi - bin Laden families. This presents a conflict of interest that wouldn't have been overlooked in any other US administration.

[Deja Q]

91. 3: Bush knew about the hijackings, but decided it was no big deal and...

it turned out to be a bit bigger than he thought. (read on...)

A hijacking still terrorizes the people on the planes, regardless of the outcome. If Bushbastard* didn't care about that while proclaiming to be a compassionate Conservative and all the other shovel-worthy drivel...

Bush is a nut and a phony and an unprincipled opportunist and a liar and a fascist and a hypocrite and has said several times he'd rather be a dictator. It's all documented.

Screw the idea it's #2, there are just TOO MANY coincidences and too many questions these bastards are openly evading while calling anyone who dares asks questions a traitor.

[littlejoe]

92. just go to www.unansweredquestions.org

[peacetalksforall]

93. MIHOP

I believe MIHOP until someone proves otherwise - if our CIA can assassinate and create massacres by cunning and bumbling, if our military can conduct inhuman experiments on their own people, if doctors can perform risky tests and allow killer pharaceuticals, if our government allows drugs into the country or even deals in drugs, if our government allows prison profits for a few that puts minorities in prison, if our prosecuting attornies and police departments can collude to imprison innocent people, if bigots can hang and kill, if our military-industrialist partners can design and profit from new toys and press to test them on humans in concocted wars, if our Presidents and Congresspeople can lie through their skin - if a few people want to control the earth and sublimate the people through loss of voice, vote, and opportunities to evolve and acquire basics - then they can come up with a 9-11.

The motivation is blatantly transparent.

They just have to change the constitution, control the media, and ruin us financially - to start.

[peacetalksforall]

97. Motivation is transparent and

there are too many secrets, too many accounts of standing down, too many cross purpose relationships - and - and - the crowning glory - they closed the put-option investigation, finding nothing...NOTHING!

[peacetalksforall]

99. And if they have remote controls that can bring down a/c

They are eliminating American flagship airline companies...one by one by one. They - being our own enemies within.

[Ducati]

95. yep

1

[kaitykaity]

96. A very firm 3.

Bush sitting in that classroom after the second plane
hit tells me all I need to know.

The fighter jets not scrambling from Andrews to protect
the Pentagon.

The pipeline they wanted in Afghanistan, and the
Taliban telling them to fuck off. . . .

Plus I believe the Bushies to be evil to the core,
and would not put killing 3,000 innocents past them
in pursuit of their PNAC goals. They needed a new
'Pearl Harbor' event after all to get their agenda
moving.

[Walt Starr]

100. More and more every day, it looks like MIHOP

No doubt about it. They've never shown any evidence that it was bin LAden and they're hiding evidence about what happened.

They make themselves look guilty, ergo, MIHOP.

[laruemtt]

101. 3.75

[Undecided Okie]

105. 9/11 attacks

I do not believe the administration knew that an attack was going to take place that morning. Maybe they had heard rumors about an attack or were gathering reports on attack rumors, but I don't think they knew any specifics.

[peacetalksforall]

110. Are you knew to the happening?

Explain the put-options.

[number6]

106. 3

..

[Sparkle]

107. I say #3.

The Bush people had the advanced warnings and knew something big was about to happen. Has there been any president in history that would take a month off on vacation? You have to pay attention to the clues. And some here may not like what I am about to say but here goes. They new something like what happened on 9/11 would benefit chimpy and this administration. That is why they let it happen. And here they have Condi Rice as the National Security Advisor. It is her job to see to it that the bushies know about our national security. They figure to let the tragedy happen and if someone must take the blame, it would be Condi, although they would fight for her. But they also figure no one would really try and put the blame on her because she is black. I mean, if this was any other administration, the national security advisor is the one that would get the blame on this. So why is Condi not in hot water? Because the press is giving her a pass because she is a black woman.

[Hippo_Tron]

109. I don't believe much into conspiracy theories regarding this subject...

I do however believe that the Saudi pages were covered up for political reasons.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Sparkle]

113. Shut up disrupter!

Oops!It seem the moderators already shut you up. LOL!

[evil_orange_cat]

114. I don't know enough information... incompetence at the least...

conspiracy at the worst... either way, Bush shouldn't be prez...

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

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[ElementaryPenguin]

122. 4! I've gone from a convinced LIHOPer to an even more convinced

MIHOPer!!

[tom_paine]

124. LIHOP, possibly MIHOP

Just how evil are these bastards? We'll never find out.

[economic justice]

127. 2 <eom>

[Individualist]

133. 3

I've strongly believed LIHOP since 9/12/2001 when a radio announcer reported that "our" government had received advance warnings. The vile administration had all the advance information they needed (PDB of 8/6/01) except exact date and location, yet did nothing to prevent the attacks.

[jenm]

134. How did Osama Bin Laden cause the Air Force to Stand Down?

[anarchy1999]

135. 4

Bush 41 has a cadre of rogue ex-CIA and other ops men who can handle the orders and will gladly work for the big man. So, secret teams are not a prob.

The election was going to be jiggered one way or another, so it's been in the works for some time. PNAC sez it all.

Republicans aren't all evil, but it's the team the money men play for in the public eye. Those who pull strings don't have to be affiliated at all. They just need to know who will work for their goals. So, there could be a mix of Repugs, Al-Qaida, Mossad, Exxon, TriLats, Morgan Chase, Christian millenialists, and the Fed Reserve. Maybe even Dems.

The media are the easiest to coordinate, being the coziest lapdog to the money players.

Kids, you know there are those at the tippy-top who want what they want, and are willing to wait for the right time. Think Andy Card, not introducing something new in August. Or John Rockefeller, who answered the question of how he made all his money, "I buy straw hats in the winter," (meaning he'll move into position when the advantage is his). BTW, the Rockefellers sold WTC 1 and 2 just months before the big psyop started.

[Insider]

138. 4

i believe the hijackers were hijacked.
(http://www.thelawparty.org/Movies%20that%20Reflect%20Reality.htm

perhaps intel revealed plans, and the planes were controlled remotely. if they trained the way we've been told, it just does not seem rational for them to be able to nail those targets so accurately. TWO towers hit, TWO towers fell. the pentagon was hit so precisely, the plane neither scraped the ground (low) nor clipped the roof (high). it hit so precisely, the wall didn't even fall.

and all activities were so precisely as described in PNAC, with ideal timing for junior's first admin (after energy plans, after month-long vacation, plenty of time for two invasions, and time for another faux-election with room to spare)

as for secrets: (1) they still believe it was and IS necessary "to protect our way of life", hence the straight-faced delivery of that line, (2) plus make it classified and that essentially shuts down discussion without risking fed prison or death.

finally, nothing even remotely close in terms of al-qaeda capabilities prior, and nothing since. if WE are at war with THEM, wouldn't it be likely that they would use all means to fight back within the last two years?