On the capture of Saddam Hussein (Thread 2)

[Skinner]

The capture of Saddam Hussein is obviously huge news, which will likely have a significant impact in Iraq, in the US, and elsewhere. While there may be an increase in violence in Iraq in the short term, I believe that in the long term this is good news for the people of Iraq, and for the possibility of a peaceful and democratic future for their country.

There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. Those who try to claim otherwise are either severely misinformed or blinded by their own partisanship. Now that he has been captured, we have the opportunity to hold him accountable for his crimes. I also believe that the chances for a peaceful and democratic future in Iraq have improved significantly. The fact that he had previously not been captured probably did provide a powerful incentive for pro-Saddam interests to continue their insurgency against the United States military, and against efforts to create a new Iraqi government. Unfortunately, there are likely still many other groups -- Islamic militants, for example -- who have no love for Saddam and will still continue fighting. For the sake of the Iraqi people, and for the sake of American soldiers, I hope that their will to fight is diminished by today's announcement.

As you all know, I was an opponent of the invasion of Iraq, and today's announcement does not change that. But I am also a pragmatist, and I recognize that we cannot go back in time and undo what is already done. While I believe that the Bush Administration has botched nearly everything about this war and occupation, I am still holding out a narrow sliver of hope that peace and democracy are possible for Iraq. If that happens, it will be a good thing for Iraq and for the Mideast region.

The impact of Saddam's capture in the United States is also likely to be significant. The capture of Saddam does not make an unwise war wise, it does not make an illegal war legal, and it does not make a foreign policy failure into a success. But it is going to make it much easier for the Bush Administration to paint the Iraq war as wise, legal, and successful. And it will make it much harder for Democrats to paint the war as a failure. Good news out of Iraq helps Bush, but I am not so partisan that I wish for bad news. The two biggest issues for 2004 are going to be national security and the economy, in that order. With Saddam's capture and a recent up tick in the economy, the Democrats' position has weakened significantly. With a primary looming, we have to figure out how that will impact our electoral strategy. I fear that Saddam's capture has the potential to make Howard Dean a weaker General Election candidate, and might even hurt Wesley Clark, who has taken a less-outspoken anti-war position. My vote is still up for grabs, and today's news makes it even harder to choose. I'm certainly going to give greater consideration to John Kerry and John Edwards.

Saddam's capture is good news. Let's hope that the Bush Administration does not botch this opportunity as well, and that even more good can come from it.

This is the second thread on this topic. Original is here.

[youngred]

1. This is Great News

A worthless, despotic, cruel and horrid man has been captured and will finally recieve justice for his crimes. As much as I cannot stand this war and the man who waged it for illegal reasons, I am cheered at the prospect of this man's capture.

For those who think this benefits Bush, take solace that the timing does not help him much at all. He will get a boost, but with congress going out of session he will not even get a chance to try and push things through with his bounce. The problems in and with the occupation of Iraq remain and even though the monster is gone that does not fix the power, water, food, order, security, education or money problems.

A good day for the US, for the world and Iraq, and yes its good for Bush, but its better news for people around the world

[htuttle]

2. Don't watch the news today, watch the spin

Other than the information that Kurdish and US troops appear to have captured Saddam Hussein, along with a couple of pictures, we haven't had any additional information on this.

However, the SPIN that every party from Bush, to all the Dem candidates, to who knows who is getting really THICK like maple syrup. This happens on all 'big event' news days -- everyone tries to take advantage of the air of 'unreality' on days like this, with the hope that even implausible possibilities seem possible (after all, 'They Got Saddam™'...)

So, already I see the 'Atta does Prague' fable resurfacing in the Telegraph this morning (copied in LBN). I see all sorts of kvetching that 'Dems are Dooomed', 'Dean is Doomed', 'Clark is Doomed', yada, yada, yada in GD. The resistance will end, the resistance will not end, this proves nothing, this proves everything.

While what politicians, posters and pundits are saying this morning might be repetitive and uninteresting, what is far more interesting is WHO is saying WHAT.

Remember the week of 9/11, all the weird spin that popped up trying to mold the event toward one interest's purpose or another? Today is like that. 'Saddam's capture proves that Bush tax cuts work', and so on...

I learn as much or more about the 'real reality' behind the spin by watching the spin itself on days like this, than I do by actually trying to make sense of the nonsense that gets repeated 200 times an hour.

[RandomUser]

6. Good point

You make an interesting point. I would be interested in seeing your analysis of the spin factor.

[fishnfla]

7. What will the WH say?

They've said nought yet. the word 'justice' will be used 5 times, but what will it mean? should be interesting.

[htuttle]

25. My guess on that...

They will use the good will they've created today to get people to get people to accept a new 'goal'. They can't afford to leave Iraq yet, the contracts are still in jeopardy, so they will start spinning a new reason for US troops to stay there.

As I recall, a few months ago the Bush administration deemed Saddam Hussein's capture 'irrelevant'. While they no doubt will grab all the glory from this that they can (and will try to grab more than they should...no doubt), they can't afford for the idea that 'well, now we can go home' to take root. Not yet.

I'd expect, and am already seeing, an attempt to use this fairly random, serendipitous event as 'proof' that all the mistakes of the past two years were not mistakes at all.

In Iraq:
Chalabi will try to use this to enhance his own stature and legitimacy, and will ALSO try to use this as evidence that the US can go home now, and leave him in charge. I'd expect the IGC to start splitting away from the Bush administration's plans even more from here on out.

The Shia will start making another, louder, call for immediate elections (not surprisingly, this will be echoed by Iran), and the Kurds will may just decide that right now is the best chance they've ever had for a sovereign Kurdistan.

Everyone but the Bush administration will want to see a public, open trial, and the Bush administration will start presenting reasons why this can't happen very shortly (by the end of the day today or Monday, would be my guess).

And finally, the attacks on US troops will continue. Ho Chi Minh was a far more charismatic and useful leader to the North Vietnamese, and his death in 1969 hardly ended the resistance in the South (nor the attacks from the North). Saddam Hussein is nowhere nearly as important to the Iraqi resistance as Ho Chi Minh was to Vietnam. And Hussein is not dead -- as the Bush administration no doubt wished he would be (and actually told us he was several times, IIRC).

All it means is that now everyone knows that Hussein will not be in power again, but I've got a pretty strong feeling that most everybody on all sides already knew that. Even if the Ba'athists somehow regained power at some point, I think they'd just as soon get a new leader themselves.

And the spin continues...

[mistertrickster]

3. Good post, thanks for that . . . now SH gets his day in court.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out when SH has a defense team presenting evidence that their poison gas materials et al. came from the Reagan white house. And with nothing to lose, he tells the straight truth about having no WMD's and no connection to Osama bin Forgotten.

The arrogance of Empire is that raw power can change history. It can't, it never has. What Empire was mightier than Rome? And where is it now. "Look upon me, ye mighty, and despair!" Ozymandius.

We may end up as what medieval clerics called "the scourge of God," the evil power who destroys evil seemingly for its own gain but is ultimately annhilated after its job is done.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Raw power can often change history

It was raw power that stopped the Axis in WWII. It was raw power that stopped the South in the Civil War. Raw power can be very effective.

[youngred]

day in....

a stacked military tribunal set up by the US most likely.

The best thing Bush could do would be to send him to the ICC. However he will not do that because of his opposition to the court, backing it now is a disaster for him. However doing that would legitimize the trial, esp in the Arab world, and that multilateral step will assure Europe of good intentions.

Anything else runs the risk of looking like a Kangaroo court

[Jack Rabbit]

20. Bush wouldn't dare send him to the ICC

I agree he should. However, any international tribunal would hear cases of all war crimes in Iraq. This would be not just those committed by Saddam and his thugs, but by Bush and his.

Yes, Saddam should stand trial for his crimes. He should have a long time ago. However, just because he is a monster doesn't make he who vanquished him a hero. Bush is merely a bigger bully. Bush, too, has serious breaches of international law for which to answer.

[youngred]

24. Exactly

as I said, no way in hell this goes (where it should) to the ICC.

Nothing Justifies the Occupation and Colonial Expansion

[Jack Rabbit]

26. Sorry

I edited my post and put most of what was there is now in post 22.

You were almost certianly responding to much of what is now down there.

[ldoolin]

12. Compare to the Manuel Noriega trial

Manuel Noriega had a lot of goods on Bush I, Reagan, and Ollie North, that he brought out in his trial.

Remember how hush-hush his trial was, and how the media never gave it more than rudimentary sound bite coverage?

[OneTwentyoNine]

18. Beat me to the punch on that....

I'm sure that will be Chimpboys big,big statement that now SH will have to answer in court for his atrocities. Fine with me,let SH tell all. Let him tell about the handshake with Rummy,the way Reagan and Co. didn't give a shit about WMD as long as SH used them against Iranians. Let him tell about how Bush 1 urged Iraqi's to overthrow SH and then left them standing with nothing only to be killed by SH and his army's.

Go right Chimpy,lets get in ALL OUT ON THE TABLE!!

David

[TankLV]

27. It will not happen.

This will never come out.

Either any "trial" will be at GITMO - "for national security reasons", or

Such testimony will not be allowed - "for national security reasons", or

SH will be dead long before any show "trial" - how convenient>

[Bunny]

5. Good for the Iraqi people.

I was almost moved to tears this morning while listening to the news conference. The joy and relief of the Iraqis present was touching. When they showed the video of Saddam being examined, the shouting and sobbing was very moving. I'm sure they remember the last time they were encouraged to oppose Saddam, and the bloodbath that resulted. Remember Poppy?

It must have been exhilerating for them to realize that this monster has finally been captured, and can no longer harm them.

[magnolia]

10. Me too!

Watching the happy Iraqis dancing in the streets...I was thinking that some day that will be us....dancing in the streets because another evil dictator (Bush) is gone. There is so much good in this situation today...we need to see it and focus on it.

[Skittles]

8. Bush Inc will NOT use this opportunity well

those f***wits will mishandle it just like they have everything else. And the consequences will be bad.

They are currently carving up Iraq to the highest bidder. The people of Iraq are NOT STUPID.

[blondeatlast]

23. I hope you are right, Skittles, but

I think you give too much credit to the group intelligence of the US citizenry. They will swallow the spin hook, line, and sinker.

Please don't kick my ass . . . Thanks.

[Cooley Hurd]

9. Certainly, the capture of Saddam is a good thing...

...but I doubt that it'll have much of an impact on attacks against coalition troops. They found him in a hole that had no effective means of the type of communication necessary to command an insurgency, at least to command it in real time. Since the fall of his government, I don't think he was anything beyond a figurehead...

Bush's poll numbers will bounce, but the attacks will most likely continue, possibly with greater ferocity, and he'll sink back into the 50's.

[Silverhair]

67. He had minutes from a recent commanders meeting on him.

I can't remember which news source I saw that at, and I've looked at a lot today. Sorry I can't give a link like I usually do. So if he idd have the nimutes of a recent terror commanders meeting, then he is communication with them.

Remember, he didn't have that hole as his permenant address. It was a hiding place for a short time. He moved daily.

[Cheswick2.0]

11. I don't think Saddam is any more or less brutal than any dictator

and probably a lot less brutal than what is happening in parts of Africa. So his capture changes nothing for me. If we had only wanted to free Iraq from him we could have done it with a lot less blood shed.
Of course the idea was to occupy Iraq, Saddam is just a convenient prop piece and the liberation of people a bait and switch lie.
The only government they are likely to get is a US puppet government.
Their best bet is if the UN takes over the whole operation. But that won't happen.

[OneTwentyoNine]

15. Damn right....

It could have been done with minimal bloodshed by a strong coalition of nations. It could have been done with a 100 million bounty on SH head--dead or alive. Hell we spend that much per day,probably more when you figure in how much Halliburton rips off American taxpayers.

David

[snoochie]

21. Thank you so much for saying that

It baffles me that so many are so easily sold on ousting the dictator of our leaders' choosing. Why don't these people wonder what makes the people of Iraq more worthy of liberation than any other people? (The answer to that ... all together now ... 'they're not swimming in oil'.)

And as you said, why not do it with less bloodshed? (The answer to that is it won't profit the MIC - you have to use bombs to buy more.)

[Silverhair]

68. Dictators vary greatly in the level of their brutality.

Why are you defending Saddam? Just because he was W's enemy does not make him our friend. There are some dictators who love their country and do a highly competent job with little oppression, as long as you don't try to oust the dictator. There are others like Saddam.

[OneTwentyoNine]

13. Good news if they stop shooting Americans....

I really wonder if this will stop,I really doubt it. In fact,now if we don't pull out I think it will increase ten fold.

Iraqi's are ready for us to get the hell out,this capture will increase their wants.

David

[Ksec]

14. It is great news but

this will be used as propaganda for bush and his campaign to use terrorism as a campaign crutch.

Things wont change over there though. Sure theyll cheer for a few hours today , tomorrow we go back to the same old thing. A few soldiers a day for a beat down , used up Dictator. I am not willing to pay that price.

[AP]

16. CSPAN: "SH was confused" by capture. Did he think he had a deal with Bush?

Did he think that he had a deal to stay free until October?

[blm]

64. Heh. Saddam seemed comfortable with his captors

enough to open his mouth for cameras. I don't believe the idiosyncratic Saddam would have done so for cameras...was he drugged? Was he comfortable with his American captors? Does the reward money secure his family's future?

I think BushInc. is secure in believing that Dean is the nominee and Dems will be unable to change course. So...welcome to Election 2004.

[ithacan]

17. overconfidence

one good thing to come out of this in the political sense is that the Bushies will be overconfident.

I don't think this will erase all of the concerns americans have about the economy, health care, the disastrous war in iraq, etc.

But the Bushies will probably believe their own propaganda and think this clinches it for them.

That is a good thing.

It's important for them to be overconfident. They do tend to be out of touch with reality, to believe their own propaganda. They may just let their guard down a bit and forget to fix a particular voting precinct's voting machines, etc.

[snoochie]

19. Yes this is wonderful news

We all hope that this will mean that there will be fewer and fewer attacks on our troops, and that things can return to normal for the Iraqis.

But we have to face facts. This is a great milestone, but it is by no means the end of hostilities.

Even if Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda -- do you think his capture will smother their will to kill our troops? Does anyone really believe that most of the attackers there were Saddam loyalists? I'm not sure about that.

I agree bush will try to claim this makes him wise and successful, but Osama is still out there, laughing at our 'fearless leader'. And all HIS followers are not going to be deterred by this one bit, I don't think. That's the real meat of the matter, and there is plenty of time between now and November for 'joe sixpack' to 'get it'.

9/11 investigations are still being stonewalled by this corrupt administration, and that's where the public will focus now that they percieve the Iraq war as being 'over'.

[TexasPatriot]

30. this is a great day for all of us

it's a great day for the Iraqi people too - because today is the day we're likely to see a tipping point in Iraqi feelings about the war.

Sure, they have to wait 8 hours in lines for gas, and there are no jobs, but they dont have to worry about Saddam ever coming back to haunt them. Having spent months reading Juan Cole's Informed Comment, I really feel the next entry will finally reflect a real honest to god positive development.

Full points to the army for once again coming through on a really really difficult task.

[Jack Rabbit]

22. It doesn't justify the invasion

Saddam's capture and the bloody record on which he stands does not change the fact that Iraq is today under colonial occupation. It does not change the fact that every stated justification Bush and his aides gave for invading Iraq was a lie. It does not change the fact that the war was about profiteering. That Saddam was a bloody tyrant was the only point on which Bush and the masses who opposed his colonial designs could agree. As far as the Iraqi people stand, the invasion only means that a gang of murderers was replaced by a gang of thieves.

In short, Saddam's capture does not legitimize Bush's colonial enterprise. Nothing could.

The colonial occupation is being resisted by more than those who, for some twisted reason or another, desire to see Saddam back in power. Bush and his minions would have us believe otherwise. Nevertheless, every lie they have told has been exposed and their characterization of the resistance as remnants of the former regime.

[Mairead]

29. "a gang of murderers was replaced by a gang of thieves."

It's worse even than that: a gang of Arabic-speaking killers and thieves was replaced by a gang of English-speaking killers and thieves.

[TankLV]

31. While I agree totally with your accessment, it will not matter to the

average, dumb, amerikkkan Sheeple - yes Sheeple.

Every bit of logic and truth about the illegality of all of this will be forgotton in the comming giant cluster mutural jerk-off and continuing orgasm by willing sheeple to praise our "Caesar".

No-one will give a second thought to the fact that all the lies prooves that "the end (does not) justify the means".

After all, none of the outrages committed against our country - beginning with the illegalities of the 2000 Selection - as much as registered a blip on the amerikkkan psyche.

There is still hope - but it has been dealt a big whammy right now.

[Jack Rabbit]

47. If that's the case . . .

(I)t will not matter to the average, dumb, amerikkkan Sheeple - yes Sheeple.
Every bit of logic and truth about the illegality of all of this will be forgotton in the comming giant cluster mutural jerk-off and continuing orgasm by willing sheeple to praise our "Caesar".

If that's the case, we should just pack it in and go home.

While I had many disagreements with the departed Mr. Jiacinto, I share his distaste for the term sheeple. While prevailing public opinion in support of a proposition does not validate it, we must recognize that public opinion is plyable and subject to better reason when it is presented.

Please show a little faith in the democratic process, Mr. Tank. Although the mainstream media is owned by the same people who own the Bush administration, we still have ways of getting our dissenting point of view across and carrying on meaningful and open public discourse. If we can do that, we will win.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Thanks

I too take great offense at the use of the denigrating term, "sheeple." It is elitist and offensive. It's the kind of term that could help marginalize us and offend even a broad base of our own support.

[TankLV]

65. I stand by my description of the a-holes who allowed bunkerboy to

steal the White House the first time.

The SHEEPLE are the ones who allow this gang of criminals to get away with murder.

It's a very apt description of too many of the current amerikkkan citizenry.

I refuse to lie. They are SHEEPLE. SHEEPLE. SHEEPLE. SHEEPLE.

"Give me my "survivor"

"Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson."

"Clinton Penis."

No you're both wrong. The term is VERY apropriate. I will continue to use it with confidence and certainty until I see a glimmer of logic and reason emerge. I won't hold my breath.

I hope I am prooven wrong. So far I'm right-on the money.

[snoochie]

72. I understand your anger

and resentment. If one chooses to critically observe the world around them, it is easy to see how warped the story they're fed actually is.

But most people don't. And I have to tell you, one thing that could temper your contempt for the people who don't take notice is just to try to understand the situation from their perspective. It's really hard for some people to accept that the world may just be vastly different than the way they've been led to believe it is.

If a young person isn't exposed to things like the ties between institutional systems and the inconsistencies between what's taught (or not taught, more accurately) and history - then that person can grow to adolescence never questioning the way things are. For some people, once they reach that point, anything that introduces the idea of the world being different than the one they've known so far is perceived with distrust and fear. It's far easier to ridicule and dismiss something that might cause you to change substantially.

If you think about it that way, then you might agree that antagonizing someone like that would not facilitate their opening up to any information that would require serious consideration. It gives them an easy out. They're being insulted, so obviously the person writing it / saying it can be written off as being juvenile or whatever, therefore they don't have to even bother think about what the person is saying.

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. Again, elitist

And so much so that you don't even see how offensive most Americans would take this. Even more, they would immediately distance themselves from whatever you were advocating.

Casting yourself as better than the American public is a good recipe for moving from the left wing of the political spectrum to left out.

[playahata1]

83. What happened to Carlos?

Did his middle-of-the road sensibilities get offended enough that he decided at long last to take his ball and go home?

[UTUSN]

28. London Telegraph Claiming ATTA Trained in Iraq in July '01

Spin or "produced" documents, fwiw: Uranium, too.

******QUOTE*****

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/14/wterr14.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/14/ixnewstop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=141071

Terrorist behind September 11 strike was trained by Saddam
By Con Coughlin
(Filed: 14/12/2003)

Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.

Details of Atta's visit to the Iraqi capital in the summer of 2001, just weeks before he launched the most devastating terrorist attack in US history, are contained in a top secret memo written to Saddam Hussein, the then Iraqi president, by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph, is dated July 1, 2001 and provides a short resume of a three-day "work programme" Atta had undertaken at Abu Nidal's base in Baghdad.

In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy". ....

*****UNQUOTE****

[Silverhair]

70. Let's wait and see. Don't have knee jerk reactions. n/t

[UTUSN]

82. Huh? What I Said. n/t

[tlcandie]

32. Maybe Saddam's capture is JUST what was needed for the blinders

to come off of the Americans' eyes, so they can see what this really was all about!

As someone posted, this cabal said Saddam was insignificant. If that is so then his capture is insignificant?

If like this cabal says Saddam is like OBL and great terrorist leader then terror will go down in Iraq and elsewhere. I wait with bated breath, but am not holding out much hope for this to happen.

Do you honestly think that with Israel within Iraq's own borders helping the Americans to bulldoze houses, kill innocents, barb-wire peeps in/out the Iraqi people will stop their rebellion about being occupied and killed w/o reason?

IMO they will now truly see themselves as free and the US occupation will now smell to high heaven in a way it hasn't before. No electricity, the continued harassment/killings of innocents, the corruptness, (pick whatever you want to fit here!) etc. will push them further into revolt for wanting their freedom, rights, food, housing, jobs and NO AMERICANS or Independent Iraqi Council with Chalabi at its core.

Let the shock and happiness wear off, let reality and the truth set in and then let's see w/o props to continue this invasion for liberation (they are now OFFICIALLY liberated btw) what this cabal will use to further their own selfish motives and where their WAR on TERRA heads off to before this one is wrapped up like Afghanistan.

I'm not holding my breath. Please don't think that the capture of someone such as * who creates crimes against humanity isn't considered a good thing in my books...it definitely is and the ICC in Hague is where they should be tried, but, of course, we know that will never be as Saddam knows WAY too much! Noreiga comes to my mind as well...Saddam will be deep-sixed or else allowed to be executed by the Iraqis which they believe is correct punishment for someone who has killed others. His death would be great victory for this cabal. His life in a criminal court would be a great victory for the American people and the Iraqis once the truth was revealed.

This is a double-edge sword for this cabal...and they aren't known for their subtlety or ability to use good things to their benefit w/o showing their true faces. Again, as someone else said, watch the spin. See who says what and where this leads. Watch the trail where does it lead.

This will be a truly revealing moment and a turning point, but we have to watch carefully to be able to see the smoke and mirrors!

[HoosierClarkie]

33. This is great news for Iraq and for our candidates.

IMO Dems will be listened to now more than ever. There might be more spin on the Dems, but everyone will be listening to what our candidates have to say. I hope all the candidates make the most of this opportunity to get their messages out.

"The two biggest issues for 2004 are going to be national security and the economy, in that order." I agree and with General Clark testifying in the Hague today, his experience is necessary.

[Bread and Circus]

34. It will be a joke if we put Dean up there to fight Bush...

Sorry folks, but we can't win by pitting a guy who wants
to raise everyone's taxes, brought his back films to a Vietnam
draft physical, and has zero foreign policy experience.

I know y'all want to tout the "he's a fighter, we need a fighter
to shout Bush down, blah, blah, blah..." but the American electorate
won't allow it.

I don't see how losing in '04 is going to help the Dem party but
go ahead be my guest.

[Skinner]

35. kick (nt)

[DemExpat]

36. kick

:kick:

[bpilgrim]

37. BRING THE TROOPS HOME!

that when i will celebrate and we should all redouble our efforts to get that message out.

while i share in your hope i don't in your optomisim because of who we have now running this country and KNOWING that this war had NOTHING to do with freeing the iraqi people but capturing their oil and i am sure the iraqi people haven't forgotton.

if the neoCONs were to change their goals an actually begin the process to enable a democratic gov to take shape - meaning you count everyones vote AND you have a respected international body like the UN come in and oversee this process - then i too would share your optomisim.

but in my heart i know that the long suffering iraqi peoples oppression and rape will continue under the current WORLD ORDER.



peace

[TexasPatriot]

38. The upcoming trial

...listening to CNN as I type, Wolf is just finishing interviewing the Iraqi representative to the UN.

Let's assume there's going to be a trial in Iraq. They're going to show it on television in Iraq. I imagine they'll show it here too (all day, every day). Day after day of translated stories of Saddam's atrocities. And every day, the 'the war was a good thing' percentages will rise.

Add to that, every attack against the US will be continuing evidence that the 'war on tearr' continues. Bush* gets to continue playing the fear card - hell, he was setting that up even today.

I believe this hurts Dean in the GE - but I think Clark will actually do well as a result, because all those horror stories parallel the stories of how Clark fought to stop the nightmare in Kosovo. Plus - if the strength of the resistance continues, being a strong leader and a general will offset Bush's* fear card well.

[YNGW]

39. Skinner

A well thought out responce to what has happened. I don't entirely agree with all that you said, but you take a sane appraoch as to what lies ahead. There is a lot of work to do.

While reading many of the posts being made in other threads at this very moment, I can only say that I'm hopeful the future of our party does not lie in the hands and in the emotions of many of the posters I'm reading today. I have reason to believe the type of comments you made were the type you were hoping for when you and the others started DU. However, the posts and threads being started today are being shaped by everything ranging from panic to pure stupidity.

I can only say that given the comments I see coming from many other posters here today, if our Democratic Party candidate is to have any hope of winning in 2004, it will have to come from a base that is much more grounded in intellect and reason than from the incompetent ramblings from the posters I've read so far, and I've been reading posts from the more promenant posters.

[kaitykaity]

40. Thanks, Skinner.

The great and powerful Oz in a hole under a house.
It's kind of funny, if you think about it. So this
is the guy running the insurgency?

[drfemoe]

41. I can see it hurting

Clark and Kerry . because even if a dimsnut can be a war hero . well ...

Not sure how it hurts Dean, but I predict plenty of DUers will let me know.

Thanks for a thoughtful, eloquent, enchanted post, Skinner.

[chimpymustgo]

42. We have to put foreign policy experience up against AWOL.

nt

[drfemoe]

45. then

where is the potential to hurt Dean? Skinner said so ...

[Skinner]

43. kick (nt)

[Cocoa]

44. I think it's much less real than that

I think the role of "Saddam loyalists" in the insurgency has been completely exaggerated. I think it's mostly been motivated by nationalism.

Yes Saddam was brutal, but this occupation has been more brutal than he ever was. No exaggeration, there's torture and murder and death squads, etc., not to mention massive "collateral damage."

And I think even when the occupation is over, Iraq will necessarily be placed in the hands of, in the approving words of Tom Friedman, "an iron-fisted ruler" who uses similar methods as Saddam. Nothing I've seen so far, including the intention of the U.S., leads me to hope for anything else.

Domestically, you might be right, I have no idea. I just don't think it's based on anything real.

[edzontar]

46. I felt that Lieberman's comments were opportunistic and hurtful...

To our party, and helpful to GW Bush.

I also felt that his call for the execution of Hussein was barbaric.

The one thing that emerges clearly from the present situation is that Lieberman cannot be our nominee.

He would lose all 50 states.

[drfemoe]

48. I wasn't surprised to hear it from

Lieb .. well chosen mouthpiece.

I am sure Gore sleeps better knowing he didn't give him his endorsement.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

54. Megadittoes on using Newsmax.

Way to go! :eyes:

[pistoff democrat]

59. I hang my head in shame.

But what can I do when the liberal press won't cover a limousine drive through Harlem? :eyes:

[drfemoe]

61. the liberal press ???

what is that url?

[JVS]

63. I guess you could stoop to using right wing propaganda against Democrats.

Kudos to you

[drfemoe]

60. like I never saw that newstory though

rw pubs seem to be a-okay for democratic candidate news items.

Someone could have responded to qestions I posted in threads with the same news source four days ago. Do I stutter?

[pistoff democrat]

52. Here we go again.

The only person who ever thought Lieberman had a chance at being our nominee was Lieberman.

There are way too many attacks on him when one considers he had and has no possibility of becoming President or VP.

I can only imagine why he would be singled out in this way...:eyes:





http://www.jews4clark.com/page.asp?p=69

[kimchi]

50. Thanks, Skinner. This line stands out:

"The capture of Saddam does not make an unwise war wise, it does not make an illegal war legal, and it does not make a foreign policy failure into a success."

It is wise to continue repeating that, to ourselves, but especially to others who will fall victim to the managed speech, and doublspeak, the inevitable and obligatory media spin.

I see this as a huge challenge to our creativity and enthusiasm in getting * off his "charming" high perch atop the world. The negative impact on our position can be offset partially by our unified voices. The candidates were right to stand up and have a say; any Democratic voice making news is damn fine by me. Too bad we haven't found the magical candidate who could make Skinner's observation resonate with the American people.. It is politics, damnit, and we democrats will eventually play hardball--and right now there is nothing wrong with staying in the game.

[Moderator]

51. kick

[Eloriel]

55. Bad for Dean?

I'm not at all sure of that. From the horse's mouth --

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,561472,00.html

Saddam was also asked whether Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. “No, of course not,” he replied, according to the official, “the U.S. dreamed them up itself to have a reason to go to war with us.” The interrogator continued along this line, said the official, asking: “if you had no weapons of mass destruction then why not let the U.N. inspectors into your facilities?” Saddam’s reply: “We didn’t want them to go into the presidential areas and intrude on our privacy.”

[Zero Division]

56. Re: Clark's statement on Saddam's capture

http://www.clark04.com/press/release/127/

I understand that a statement that would remind everyone of the opportunity costs of this war (more resources to go after Bin Laden and Al Qaeda or take care of other security risks, like nuclear materials on the international black market, etc.) and the incompetence demonstrated by the Bush misadministration in its execution of the war and the reconstruction would be incredibly appealing to those of us who cannot look at this war out of the context of those facts.

However, just imagine what such a statement might sound like to those who are less sure of their opinion of the war or are a lot less partisan than we are. Coming from a presidential candidate it would sound like sour grapes and almost a slap in the face to those who helped capture Saddam. And, aside from that, given the fact that we have invaded Iraq and cannot take that decision back, the capture of Saddam is a good thing. Yes, it may lead to more intense fighting on the part of Batthist loyalists in the short term, but in the long term it is better that Saddam has been captured and will likely be put on trial than that he still be at large.

From the bulk of his previous statements on the decision to invade Iraq, it is clear that Clark understands that the decision to invade Iraq at the time that we did and in the manner that we did was unjustifiable and that the administration's overall handling of the issue has been poor and deceitful. There will be a time to bring this up again, as he has before, but at this moment, IMO, it is best to simply acknowledge that the capture of Saddam is obviously a very good thing.

[unfrigginreal]

57. Great analysis but you drew the wrong conclusion

The two biggest issues for 2004 are going to be national security and the economy, in that order.


Assuming that peace prevails in Iraq, how do you come to the conclusion that national security will trump the economy in the upcoming election? That's the biggest fallacy put forth by all of the Clark, Edwards and Kerry supporters. If things are going well overseas, then people are going to be much more focused on domestic issues.

Now assuming that things deteriorate, then Bush would be in trouble regardless of who the Dem nominee is.

[Silverhair]

73. National Security will be the PRIMARY issue.

Let us suppose the everything in Iraq goes great and they have an effective functioning gov't by June and by August all the troops are pulled out and the Iraqis are throwing flowers at our troops. (Hey, I know that ain't gonna happen, but for the sake of the discussion let's assume that.) National Security is still primary.

There was a list of countries that are an "Axis of Evil", and Al-Qeada is stateless. No shortage of dangerous enemies.

[unfrigginreal]

79. We just disagree on this

America will tune out to the goings on in Iraq the day the killings stop. And I don't even think that the brazen Bush would contemplate new actions until after the elections.

Here's another opinion from the pollster Zogby:

O-D: What does Bush need to do to win this election?

Zogby: The war will be one of the top two issues. The economy, I still think, will be the major issue. There are going to be variables in answering the question of whether George Bush can win, among those are who's going to be the Democratic nominee? What's the ticket going to be like? Are the Democrats going to be able to run a credible campaign against him? For the president, he's going to have to run into this: the new rationale for this war. That we got Saddam and now we are clearly on the path to a democratic Iraq and a democratic Middle East. And that could still be a hard sell.

http://www.uticaod.com/archive/2003/12/15/news/22100.html

[Crewleader]

58. I agree with everything you say Skinner

except I don't think this weakens General Clark's campaign, Bush still runs a lousy adminstration, doesn't have the formula in connecting and working with the internationals and that last fiasco of putting contract jobs only out to bid for the countries that fought in Iraq,is a fine example of where his leadership lacks.

Only in embarrassment of others speaking out,republicans and democrats with a General saying his arm forces are not there to protect Hallibutrin corporations and others.

You said it, National Security and The Economy is going to be the two biggest factors in beating Bush.

Capturing Bin Laden was where Bush should of concentrated on first and violent action by him will increase.
A car bomb immediately after Suddam's capture at the hotel where all the journalist are staying. They don't want the US in any country in the Middle East specially occupying one like Iraq, that's the War our soldiers are fighting now,terrorists.And the Bush's adminstration's attitude is better there then here...but the idiots don't see, it's definitely here, ask the families losing their daughters and sons, fathers and mothers, uncles and aunts. That's what will be in the hearts of the voters in 2004,and the economy won't be job creative as they think they will be, all the good ones are going out of the country and service jobs a plenty will be the only openings. That's what people will be thinking of when they go to the polls, and they won't even have to ask themselves, am I better off four years ago then I am today...NO WAY...they live it everyday, the struggle for working families today with children is extremely hard and they are getting squeezed everyday by Bush.

That's what we need in a candidate to show he or she can do better, and I bet they all can do the job in their sleep, my friend!

[realFedUp]

62. He definitely needs a Queer Eye guy makeover...

:-) there's humor in everything...

[moondust]

66. It's still a diversion.

Costing a fortune. Has no impact on terrorism. Could have been postponed indefinitely. Peaceful solution might have been found. Dead people everywhere for what? An old man in his hidey hole?

[UTUSN]

69. My Favorite SKINNER Quotations, *or* Why

why is he so young and I'm so old:

******QUOTE*****

(1) The capture of Saddam does not make an unwise war wise, it does not make an illegal war legal, and it does not make a foreign policy failure into a success.

(2) Skinner: "So remember, next time you feel the urge to flame another DUer, that we all share the same hopes and dreams. We are all on the same side. We may not support the same candidates in the primary, but we are ALL capable of treating other people with respect. I am not always perfect in this regard, and I don't expect you to be either. But I do expect everyone to make a real effort. Ask yourself how your actions can help increase understanding, and how you can help bring people together during this time when we need each other so much."

(3) (Not by SKINNER, but I like it) ******QUOTE*****It took the Romans "three years, ten months and eight days" to get to know the real Caligula. (This would take us to, uh, November 2004.)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/suetonius-caligula.html

.... rearing a viper for the Roman people and a Phaethon (": a son of Helios who drives his father's sun-chariot through the sky but loses control and is struck down by a thunderbolt of Zeus") for the world. ....

.... he poisoned Tiberius, as some think, and ordered that his ring be taken from him while he still breathed ....

.... By thus gaining the throne he fulfilled the highest hopes of the Roman people, or I may say of all mankind, since he was the prince most earnestly desired by the great part of the provincials and soldiers, many of whom had known him in his infancy ....

.... He even used openly to deplore the state of his times, because they had been marked by no public disasters,.....and every now and then he wished for the destruction of his armies, for famine, pestilence, fires, or a great earthquake. ....

.... ruled three years, ten months and eight days ....
*****UNQUOTE****

[rbnyc]

71. Thank You.

I'm glad you do let yourself share your point of view with us from time to time.

[Cronus Protagonist]

75. Hope Rings Eternal

http://bushspeaks.com/home.asp?did=151



FUCK BUSH Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[UTUSN]

76. Kick 'cause It's All Good

Congrats to PAVAROTTI's wedding

[Gore1FL]

77. I give credit where credit is due

And Bush came out on top on this one -- and it isn't a bad thing, exactly.

I have to give him full credit, becuae if it were not for him,, we wouldn't be in Iraq to start with.

This "victory", which came at the expense of nearly 500 servicemen dead (so far) several thousand servicemen maimed, a couple hundred billion dollars, and the weakening of our national defenses through overdeployment, and the outraging of allies, friends, and enemies alike.

I give Credit to Bush for Hussein's capture. I also give Credit to Bush for the high costs (blood and treasure) involved.

Is one equal to the other? I don't think so.

[nolabels]

78. Are you looking at a small picture, thinking its the big picture?

It shouldn't have made any difference if they had caught him in bed with Bin Ladin and a rubber doll. This whole thing was about OIL, power, and who had control of the biggest whacking stick.

One of Corporate America's oil reserves are saved from the Frenchies in the short term. * will be rewarded by the capitalist cronies who put him there and a message has now been sent out for those who would mess with the dollars supremacy, that will be dealt with in a similar fashion. Maybe the message is eight years late but at least give them credit, for they did sent it out eventually

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5371.htm
A repressive embarrassment

12/13/03: (The Toledo Blade) Anyone who thinks the administration and its law enforcement chief, Attorney General John Ashcroft, aren’t out to impede a free press need only hear how the federal government is treating foreign journalists coming to this country on assignment.

Without notification to foreign media outlets, the immigration and customs people are arresting, detaining, and deporting journalists arriving here without special visas. This is so even when they come from nations whose citizens can stay for up to 90 days without a visa if they are arriving as tourists or on business.

If that threatening form of registration is not enough, members of the press arriving without the visas, which no one told them they needed, are treated like criminals, handcuffed as they’re marched through airports, photographed, fingerprinted, and their DNA taken.

Peter Krobath, chief editor for the Austrian movie magazine Skip, was held overnight in a cold room with 45 others who arrived without the visa. The room had two open toilets, a metal bench, and a concrete bench. He was here to interview movie star Ben Affleck and see the movie Paycheck
(snip)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Sorry, unlike most of the posters in this thread, I don't think the...

...capture of Saddam at this late date will cause any lessening of the hostilities in Iraq. The insurgents have become freedom-fighters and martyrs to the cause of restoring Iraqi rule to the country.

In fact, I believe the hostilities in Iraq are going to escalate now that Iraqis are sensing a power vacuum that even the U.S. has failed to fill.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

81. Saddam's capture makes Howard Dean a weaker General Election candidate

Saddam's capture absolutely makes Howard Dean a weaker General Election candidate. People can hope against hope but that is all they can do. The reality is it will focus more attention to foreign policy resume. Dean can say things like "Mr. Bush, I'll teach you something about defense" and some people will just laugh.