Dean Papers to Come Out After Primaries

[Raya]

(Moderator. Sorry, rule breach was unintentional)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57807-2003Dec11.html


Hey, what gives with Dean’s secret documents. Post article suggests that access to the records won't happen till after the early primaries.

Is Dean’s “Let a judge decide” just a slick maneuver to make sure that nothing gets out till after the primaries.

Vermont papers say “it will be months” before anything can be done through the courts. This is very suspicious.

IS THIS FAIR TO US?

I am old enough to know this is just like Nixon. Making some pompous statement in public, while behind closed doors scheming and sneering about the dumb voters.

All the rumors say that the papers will show a Howard Dean that did all kinds of deals with Big Business lobbyists and pretty much put the knife to liberals whenever he could.

UNTIL DEAN OPENS THE RECORD, I HAVE TO BELIEVE HE IS DIRTY.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. You Gotta Lose the All Caps Title

Or else you'll get locked again.

DTH

[madfloridian]

2. Have you tried to get access to Bush's "open" records lately?

They are not really open, just sort of. You have to get approval from the archivist (10 days)then the attorney general (45 days), and Governor Perry has the final key as to whether you can have them.

I don't call that open.

[sandnsea]

5. What's Bush got to do with it?

We're electing a Democrat, not a Republican.

[hedda_foil]

6. No. If you and your candidates keep this up, you'll be electing Bush.

[curse10]

8. Yes, god forbid we support someone besides Dean

:eyes:

[Julien Sorel]

13. If it's so vital it could decide the election, then either

A) Dean should open the files immediately and prove it's a tempest in a teapot; or

B) What's in the files is so damning that Dean is damaged goods.

Since Dean seems bent on delaying opening the files, it doesn't look good. You're trying to shoot the messenger.

[MercutioATC]

18. What about actually using it as a campaign strategy? Logically:

1) Dean doesn't win the nomination ant the issue is moot.

2) Dean does win the nomination and faces an opponent (Bush) who has sealed his records. Dean then has the ability to make an issue of releasing his records and challenging Bush to do the same.

I really don't think he should release them just yet...

[Julien Sorel]

20. According to your fellow Deanite,

this issue has the potential to break the campaign. It seems that if that's the case, trying to use is as some kind of campaign trick is a desperate gamble. Of course, Bush's records are unsealed, or at least they are to the extent that an ignorant public would believe, so it wouldn't work anyway; besides, Bush now has a record as president to run on, so what he did as governor several years ago wouldn't weigh very heavily.
Dean, on the other hand, has nothing but his governorship to run on. And he's hiding part of that record. Don't look too good.

[MercutioATC]

21. News flash: "Deanites", as you like to call us, are individuals.

Personally, I have my own opinion on the issue. Bush's records ARE sealed. Dean's are too, for the time being. Again, if Dean's not the nominee, it's not an issue. If he is, he can use the "unsealing" of his records as a call for Bush to do the same.

I don't feel that Dean's decision is a real issue in the primary, so I'm not very concerned about it. I think it will work in his favor in the general.

[Julien Sorel]

24. I have my doubts.

Both about the individuality of Deanites, and in particular, about the unsealing of the documents. It sounds like a rationalization for not releasing them. No one will care about Bush's documents as governor when he has a record as President to be examined (it would kind of be like pointing out that, say, Sammy Sosa couldn't hit in the minor leagues), and again, they are already unsealed to the degree that a credible public would be satisfied.

But, as with everything else, the entire thing is simply another card up the sleeve of Howard Dean, the Master Strategist. :eyes:

[MercutioATC]

25. I think I take offense to at least part of your post...

...but then, why would that surprise anybody?

1) We ARE separate individuals, regardless of the way our chosen candidate has enabled us to become a well-oiled political machine.

2) It's not the contents of the sealed portion of the record as much as it's the challenge. People WILL care if one person is willing to disclose and one isn't, especially with a media campaign screaming something like "You elected him the first time without knowing THIS! WHY did he hide things from you and will you vote for a candidate that hides things again?". It's not a slamdunk, but it IS a valid tool.

[Julien Sorel]

28. Of course, of course.

People will look at the economy of the nation, and suddenly worry about what Bush did as governor of Texas. Yes, it makes sense to me. Or someone. Again, Bush can simply say they are unsealed, and since it's a half truth, it will be good enough, whereas there is no doubt about the status of Dean's records. But as with everything else with the Deanites, if it's possible to believe something will happen that's favorable to Dean, you people will believe it. And why not. Everything's gone like a dream so far...

By the way, isn't it proper to capitalize 'Chosen Candidate' when speaking of Howard Dean in that fashion? I read your paragraph and felt as if you were somehow profaning The Howard with that failing. Look out for the bolts of lightning.

[MercutioATC]

33. Is it truly this simple to you? You really don't see the potential for

discontent? People will want to get any bad press they can on Bush if we give them a credible chance. Hell, his public records as a baseball team owner will come into play if public sentiment runs that way. My point is that Dean will win (or not) regardless of the disclosure of his sealed records. We, as Democrats, should support that. When is the last time you heard of a team advocating the publication of all of its strategies? Let Dean, or whomever the chosen candidate proves to be, save whatever arsenal he can gather for the general election.

[SahaleArm]

34. Really they're not a collective entity:)

"Joe Trippi would like to reiterate to everyone that we cannot be
referring to our supporters coming to Iowa as a coming "storm"
or "perfect storm" -- since the word "storm" has a lot of negative
connotations associated with it. So please stop using this
completely.

If you have any questions, let me know. Thanks.

Tom McMahon
Deputy Campaign Manager"

Really :evilgrin:

[liberalnurse]

19. You got that right.

I pray that the dems here would wake-up......they claim to be dem's but I think they are canibals.....Eating their young.

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Remember When The Pro-War Repukes Were Like

These hippies complain about all the civilian casualties, but we're better than Saddam Hussein?

Being comprable to Saddam Hussein isn't great news in my book. And having a sense of secrecy comprable to Bush isn't a very persuasive argument for me.

And I support a guy from Skull & Bones!

(note: rich frat boy shenanigans and government accountability are not really in the same boat for me)

[clarknyc]

3. Ummm...

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Seems to me there's a lot of vigilante justice going on around here...

[dsc]

4. I have asked this over and over and over and over and over again

Please direct me to the place where I can read the correspondence of any other candidate with his or her constituents. I am sure you have some wonderful response to this.

[Raya]

10. Governor Record in question are FULLY OPEN by law in MOST STATES

Sun Shine Laws in most states now require that all State House
records are open to the public. Personal information is blacked out on request before documents are filed.

[dsc]

12. first

we don't have govs running except Dean, and second flat out false. Clinton's records were sealed, Bush's records are still defacto sealed. Voinovich's records are sealed.

Second try again of our current candidates direct me to a site where I can see those records.

[Lefta Dissenter]

9. Why won't he just

move heaven and earth to get them opened NOW? I really want to believe that there's nothing bad in there. It seems like it would not be difficult to purge the names of individuals who might be hurt by release of the docs, and then just release them!

I want the Democratic Party to be ABOVE this crap! None of this "I'll do it as soon as bush does," or "We'll see what the law forces me to do." RISE ABOVE IT! If he had just opened the docs as soon as the issue was brought up, it would all be over now - no more discussion. Instead, he looks like he's hiding something - and I've had enough "We'll deal with this after the election," thank you very much Ahnold the Gropinator... Come on, Dean, show us what you're made of!!!

[Sensitivity]

14. Everything I have been hearing makes me worried about the General

There must be a reason why the Governor went to such effort to seal the papers for 10 years. That's not allowed in California.

[slinkerwink]

15. also, Dean was governor for 11 years, and those records are sealed for

that time. Every other governor has had their records sealed for the length of time they served in office. It's normal practice.

[SahaleArm]

17. Source? I've never heard that rule... *nm*

[Skwmom]

35. He wanted to seal his records for 20 years. e/o/m

[Endangered Specie]

11. Just about every governor

is going to have some sealed records... that is the way it is. Not everything should be for public viewing.

Keep in mind also, that what gets sealed is actually not chosen by the governor.

PLease go to www.howarddean.tv and watch the Hardball segment.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. WHAT in a governor's records "should not be for public viewing"?

Was Dean planning to invade Iraq with Vermont's National Guard? Getting top-secret warnings of Haagen Dasz spies working at Ben & Jerry's? Receiving reports that Vermont Country Store might defect to Maine and merge with L.L. Bean?

We've all heard Dean's lame excuse about letters from HIV-positive people (lame because names and addresses can be redacted/ blacked out in documents released.

Dean tried to get his records sealed for twenty years. The state archivist advised him, through his atttorney, that asking for any extension of the usual seal provided for papers of all Vermont governors would make people wonder what he was hiding and actually detract from his record. And so it has.

Dean also has said he had his Selective Service records checked into so there wouldn't be any surprises about that during the campaign. If his story about his draft deferment is true, why would he worry what the records might show?

[killbotfactory]

22. Letters from people who gave advice confidentially...

Just a guess.

[MercutioATC]

23. Hell, internal memos...records of meetings...

there are TONS of trivial things that could be spun by an oponent. MUCH easier to simply seal the records...especially when your opponent has already done the same.

[Skwmom]

36. Isn't this the Bush admin argument for not releasing the energy papers?

It's pretty bad when we start to mimic Bush.

[incapsulated]

26. If this is true...

And they are unsealed after the primaries, it's pretty obvious that he is hiding something that will damage his Democratic credidentials, not something he thinks would hurt him in the general election. For example, some ugly dealings with energy bigwigs or something. Not something that Bush is likely to use against him (heh), but something that his opponents would hammer him on.

[PurityOfEssence]

30. Correct. What if they show him to be more conservative than he says?

If this is the case, then he will have snuck past the Democrats. That's hardly sporting, considering that he represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party.

Let's revisit a couple of points. Dean is not the only one who can beat Bush, or at least claim to be able to do so. Many of us think he doesn't have as good a chance as others who are more liberal (specifically Edwards and Kerry) and more to our tastes. It would be sad if we settled for someone just because of panic and momentum, while beeing hoodwinked about policy. I want the most left person with a seriously viable chance, and since I don't think anyone's to the right of Dean except Lieberman and maybe Clark, that's a big point.

If there's stuff in there that makes him vulnerable, but doesn't show him to be a closet conservative, we could easily be stuck with a nominee with flaws. That's just foolish.

Why not open them now, if he's going to open them? The more stalling he does, the less chance anyone'll have to peruse them, and then, like Schwarzenneger, he'll be able to claim that he was ambushed at the last minute. That doesn't help anyone; we lose by not having a fair look, and he loses by having yet another backtracking and fairplay issue.

He has repeatedly called foul when being confronted with his record, and that kind of complaining wears thin after awhile, especially from someone who's been so personally dismissive of his opponents so far. Remember, he's going to have to defend himself against the relentlessness of the Republicans should he be nominated, and if he keeps shooting off his mouth and then spluttering combined outrage and retractions, it's going to be trouble. Sigh. Of course it's everyone's fault who takes him to task for anything, but there's a problem here: we have to find the best standard bearer.

What's the problem? Open them. If there are names that need to be redacted because of privacy issues, then do it.

[morgan2]

27. support someone whose honest

Dennis Kucinich is the only one worthy of supporting.

[DinkyDem]

29. AKA: Dean Papers to Come Out When It's Too Late

to go back and choose the RIGHT candidate.

Folks, we're being corralled into backing the wrong man...
Like sheep lead to the slaughter.

Dean needs to be tested NOW, during the primaries, not during the general election.

I hope we get over this ABB fad, otherwise some people would elect Hitler if he played well on TV...
Come to think of it, Hitler had a certain "firey passion" and a paranoid sense of injustice, too...

Maybe we should be looking a little deeper?
Just something to chew on.

[morgan2]

31. kind of like arnold's

I'll investigate the groping after the election.

[DinkyDem]

32. indeed

But with Arnold we at least knew the severity of the accusation and what we were getting ourselves into. Dean doesn't even give us that.

All we know is he is angry, passionate, and paraniod. And that he hates George Bush.

Is that good enough to elect him on?
Who else does he hate..?
People with his kind of anger usually don't have only one target...

Who knows what may come out about Dean later?
We have no way of knowing, and we won't know until it does, and by then it will be too late to correct the mistake.

Open and Honest Government.

[Moderator]

37. I am locking this thread.

From GD posting rules:

1. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.



DU Moderator