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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:16 AM
Original message
Ted Rall - Cancel the Primaries
Time for Democrats to Rally Around Dean

NEW YORK--Barring some unforeseeable misstep, Gov. Howard Dean will be the Democratic nominee. Patrick Buchanan thinks so. So does Al Gore, who acknowledged Dean's soar in the polls with this endorsement: "Whether it is inspiring enthusiasm at the grassroots, and promising to remake the Democratic Party as a force for justice and progress and good in America," said President Gore, "whether it is a domestic agenda that gets our nation back on track, or whether it is protecting us against terrorists and strengthening our nation in the world, I have come to the conclusion that one candidate clearly now stands out."

Straight up. It's time for the increasingly irrelevant influence of centrist-right Al From's Democratic Leadership Council to decide which is more important: keeping control of the Democrats or electing one to the presidency. Dean is the only contender with the cash, charisma and cajones to expel Generalissimo El Busho from the White House--but he needs a unified party to pull it off.

Bush spent $100 million to beat John McCain in the 2000 GOP primaries. (Kinko's must've really soaked him on those nasty faxes claiming that the Arizona senator had fathered an illegitimate child with an African-American prostitute.) Thanks to a unified Republican Party, Bush is running unopposed this time--and saving his projected $170 million war chest for a barrage of TV spots between September and November.

"Even if Dean, the former Vermont governor, is able to match Bush dollar for dollar, he would start the general election far behind the president," reports The Christian Science Monitor. "Bush is hoarding his cash until it is clear who the Democratic nominee will be, while Dean, who has raised more than $25 million so far, has to spend furiously just to win the nomination."

Unless he doesn't.

continue reading
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Let the media decide??
This is insane. Everybody is supposedly angry over the Florida election, but now that their guy is ahead in the polls they're suggesting we do away with elections altogether.

Objectivity. Subjectivity. Please learn the difference folks.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. I don't agree with Rall
But, really, comparing these kind of statements to what happened in Florida is over-the-top and I find it quite offensive.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
54. Right. This is worse that Florida.
That was just good old-fashioned election fraud. Hell, election fraud is just part of American Democracy. I can deal with that. I know how to fight it. Get more voters to the polls and get smart lawyers to protect them.

This argument is that Democracy as a concept is faulty. We should just let money and media decide for us.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. This is worse than Florida??!!!
Wow
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. The argument is fundamentally worse
Yes. That was about vote-stealing, which has been going on since the founding of the Republic. This is about cancelling elections completely and letting an elite decide.
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PissedOffPollyana Donating Member (258 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
68. Thank you!
There is something very sketchy about all this "must rally around ______ " (insert flavor of the moment) before a single ballot has been cast. What's the rush, people?

Generally, I like more of Rall than I dislike, but this is just over the top.

I may wind up seeking out an industrial-strength clothespin and voting for Dean, but I'll be damned if I let myself get sucked into the same sheeplike vortex that told us that we should "rally behind the President". Sure, some seemingly well-meaning people are all for this guy and they want to influence our votes but doesn't that mean that we have no real voice in selecting our own leaders?

When we reduce our democratic process to calling victory before the vote is cast, we are no better than the folks we deride day in & day out. If he is indeed the strongest candidate, that will bear out, won't it?

Wouldn't we rather have a candidate who has proven his mandate within the party and his viability? We cannot take on the challenge of running against the Bush propaganda leader-making machine (instant leader, just add spin) unless we have a proven leader of our own. If Dean can earn it, he can have it. Until then, let the voters decide!

Shame on Ted.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wow , at least I like his comics..
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 04:23 AM by ThirdWheelLegend
" What if the other Democratic candidates came together at a joint press conference to announce that they were dropping out of the race to endorse Dean? If nothing else, cash-starved states would love it--the average primary costs taxpayers $7 million. More to the point, it would save Dean roughly $75 million--enough to close the money gap with Bush."
snip>>>
" The outcome of the Democratic primaries is now a foregone conclusion."

Wow NOT ONE VOTE HAS BEEN CAST, lets declare it for Dean!!! The one leading the polls mainly because his name is most recognizable due to the overwhelming disparity in media coverage.

I say... NO THANKS!

Like I said, love his comics, maybe he should keep his dayjob.

TWL
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
34. his line about "forget the righ leaning centerist crap doesn't wash
when applied to Dean. we know Dean is not a liberal. also, considering Dean has had a two year head start on Clark, yet Clark has already raised half as much money sort of puts the kibosh to that arguement.

and finally, the rpimaries are too expensive????HA!!! so let's just keep the prez we have and save a billion bucks for the county....or let the SCOTUS pick again...</sarcasm>
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. The progression of Ted Rall - Free Thinker to Deanbot
8/13/03: Love Me, I'm (Not Really) A Liberal - Liberal Democrats Project Their Desires onto Howard Dean

11/26/03: Howard Dean For President - In 2004, Anybody But Bush

12/10/03: Cancel the primaries - Time for Democrats to Rally Around Dean

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. He's got a great point, though.
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 04:50 AM by BullGooseLoony
Our nominee is going to need all the money he can get. Spending it in the primaries is a waste.

And imagine if all of the candidates' resources were put into Howard Dean NOW....

EVERY Democrat out there busting ass for Dean...

Talking about scaring the SHIT out of Karl Rove.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Then we should change the name from Democratic to Coronation Party
The primary is good for two things nominating and vetting the candidates. Why let Rove and the media do the nominating?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. You think Ted Rall is working for Rove?
Do you think Al Gore is?
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. No but why argue against the principles of the Democratic party?
We don't annoint candidates but nominate them through the primary system. Debates, caucuses, and primaries allow us to nominate the strongest candidate, why subvert the process?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Do you at least admit that Dean
is, most likely, going to win?

If he's going to win anyway, why not take advantage of all of those things Rall mentioned? Saving $75M, showing the electorate how unified and focused we are, not to mention, again, scaring the SHIT out of Karl Rove.

Doesn't the thought of that make you giddy?

This election is extremely important. Can we, for ONCE, put aside the bickering, and go with the guy with the greatest leadership qualities, financial resources, manpower, and, IMHO, platform?
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. No - Dean is the front-runner, nothing more, nothing less.
If I agreed with your philosophy I wouldn't be a Democrat.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. But, in voting for Dean,
you would be a Democrat.

Dean is a Democrat, and a strong one.

Let's get this thing moving.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Would you consider a candidate legitimate if we annointed him/her?
We already have an annointed President in office; we as Democrats do not need to follow suit. Let the process play out.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. I'm not saying annoint anyone
in the sense of not having a primaries (although I think that IS actually what Ted said). Of course we should vote.

I'm saying everyone should get behind Dean, like Al Gore asked, to make it easier on him financially, and otherwise, and to send a message to those Republican bastards that we're not fooling around. We need to streamline this and start building momentum.

The more coverage Dean can get, the better, too, because the more he gets, the less effective Republican spin of him being "too left" will be.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. The same can be said about any of the canidates...
Why Dean over the others? Democracy is a process of debate not hagiographical fawning, that's why it should play itself out.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Because Dean has the money
the fighting spirit, the leadership, the campaign infrastructure, and now the endorsement of Al Gore and the name recognition that goes with that.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. And that adds up to a whopping support of 15%-25%.
He has the campaign and the money but I happen to think we have candidates who can provide better leadership :).
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Oh, were those "leaders" the ones who authorized Bush
to invade a country that had done nothing to us?
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Basically you want us to lay down for Trippi-Powered Howard?
Why not just come out and say it...
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Al Gore already did.
Considering everything, Dean truly has the best chance of beating Bush.

Noone's asking for an annointment. Just support Dean, instead of attacking him and making him waste his resources that he could be using against Bush.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Al Gore said it so we should obey orders?
Is that you Ted?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Dammit, this isn't about obeying orders.
You know that's not what it's about. Gore didn't command anyone to do anything. He's asking you to think about what's best for the party, because he thinks the best thing is to get behind Dean.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Perhaps some of us disagree?
Perhaps some of us believe there's a more effective way to win the General Election?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
56. Screw the Party
I don't take orders from the Party; I take orders from my conscience.

We don't live in Daley's Chicago anymore.
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
71. "...Just support Dean, instead of attacking him and
making him waste his resources..." You're kidding, right? Let me put it this way-if he wins the nomination, he gets my vote in November, 2004. Until then, I'll vote for the candidate I choose. How's that?
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Ted Koppel? Is that you?
TWL
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. LOL *nm*
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. No amount of money will save Dean during the general election. e/o/m
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. the one with the mostest money will win
I agree with Rall. Dean is the one that has gone to the grass roots--and has shown a certain amount of leadership savvy and skills in doing so--he has also shown his chutzpa--had Clark come into the race sooner the field may have evened up some. But, nevertheless, Dean has outshown the other candidates in his ability to go to grassroots and no only go to them but to organize the grassroots. I see a Dean sign already, first one, in front of someone's house in my small community here. This is his strength right now and it will continue to grow if he keeps up that strategy. Kerry is fine as far as a certain amount of respect may be garnered up because of his statesmanship and public service in the Senate is concerned, but he is also entrenched in that old boy club for too long, imo--he has done some wobbly :eyes: things lately also that causes one to doubt--Lieberman would never have been the choice in any primary and we should spare ourselves having to listen to him any longer, neither would Sharpton or Braun or Kucinich--no matter how much people would like to show their support in the voting booth-(I personally like Kuchinich)-or how much they are in love with their candidate's platform or personality

--this time it is time to be meticulously and ruthlessly practical. Gore, the ever farseeing man, showed us that--the election and the ousting of fascist Bush is crucial--even life saving.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. So Bush is going to win...he has the mostest money
You had me at hello..Scratch that..

You lost me at the heading.

:eyes:

TWL
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. It is time to be ruthless. But bagging the primaries is a little
over the top. Gore didn't advocate that.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. another point would be
Why is Dean spending all his money, even after foregoing public financing(which he said he wouldn't), against the other democrats?

Oh and another point:

"And imagine if all of the candidates' resources were put into Dennis Kucinich NOW...."

TWL
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I don't think anyone thinks that
But the way primaries work is for party members like you and me to vote for the candidate we want as the nominee. It is already too much about insider knowhow and money and polls anyway--let the voting remain.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Kucinich very easily
will fall victim to the "too left for the US" routine.

While the Bushees may TRY to spin Dean as "too left," he can defend himself with his record and platform.
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
51. Dennis Kucinich would make America realize Bush's IQ is about 103(nt)
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. we need a Repub primary challenger
forcing Bush to waste his money has the same effect as conserving our money and doesn't undermine democracy, maybe if the candidates could each donate some to a Repub primary challenger (I don't know if that is possible).
Obviously the primary costs of a lot of money, and if everyone knew who the best candidate was the primary wouldn't be necessary. But Dean isn't far enough ahead to say we KNOW he's going to win, and no way should he be crowned the best just because he raised the most money. I think if certain candidates thought Dean was going to win for sure they'd have already dropped out and started endorsing him (except maybe Lieberman), and if they're going to be convinced otherwise it's not going to be by a Deaniebopper. However, if all the candidates want to quit and endorse Clark, now that's an idea :)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That's every Dem's hope right now. (nt)
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
24.  Rove would be dancing in the street.
I don't care how much money Dean has. No amount of money will save us from the Dean debacle once the Republicans are done with Dean.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. Rove IS dancing in the street
because you're listening to him.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Electability and election strategies are key
We should be focusing on them as we move into the elections.

(I want to keep the original post kicked because the thinking behind it is so undemocratic.)

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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
78. But it's NOT about the money
BushCo outspent Gore by $60 MILLION in 2000, and had to resort to chicanery to "win" in Florida.

Paul Wellstone spent 1/10th of his general election opponent in 1990, and STILL won with a majority of the vote.

We WILL NOT WIN this race by playing "the money game" with ShrubCo and his corporate minions. He will ALWAYS outspend us, as his resources have much deeper pockets than ours.

We will win this by TELLING THE TRUTH on our CORE ISSUES: economic justice, an end to militaristic expansion, reforming our healthcare system, supporting workers rights, standing up for civil rights, and standing up for the little guy.

If we choose to follow the money route, we will in the end become no better than those we seek to replace-- is this the kind of "victory" we want?

I certainly hope not, for our sake, and for our country's sake.
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. I suppose we should just skip the generals too
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 04:42 AM by foktarded
After all, Rove thinks Bush is definitely going to win it, and the election costs so much money and time when America really needs to unite against the terrorists. That progression is revealing and sad.
Not to mention he repeated the Clark = right-winger crap, that only the most blinded Deanieboppers buy these days.
The cartoons were funny though.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. THIS at least is pretty silly
Might as well not even have the people vote--take some polls and endorsements and off you go?
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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. Not all of us Deanies feel this way
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 05:02 AM by khephra
I'm very disappointed in Rall.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Note to campaign managers for Clark, Kerry, et al
Start distributing posts like this to the voters in New Hampshire.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I think they've
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I've lived through a few primaries
The voters in New Hampshire don't like to be taken for granted.
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deminflorida Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. As more people push for Dean to be the candidate....
the price of his stock will. It's forcing the other candidates to finally address the issues that people on this board have been concerned about for a while. Check out this mornings CNN's Inside Politics if you don't believe me.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/10/elec04.prez.d...

"Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina boldly said Dean is "not going to be the nominee"

And from John Kerry.....

"I don't want to raise taxes," Kerry said. "The governor wants to raise taxes on the middle class. I think that's an enormous mistake for our economy, and I think it's unfair to middle class people who don't have the problem of having too much money."

Again from John Edwards....

"When he talks about raising taxes on the middle class -- which he does talk about, which he does support -- I think I have a better understanding of what that means in people's lives."





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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Edwards nailed it
This is my concern, too. The next President will have to take some painful measures to clean up Bush's deficit mess. I would prefer to have somebody in the White House who knows how it is to live from paycheck to paycheck.

If we have to have another Yalie, then let it be Kerry. He could have used connections to avoid duty in Vietnam but didn't and his heart has always been in the right place.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. This Senator
is going to attack Dean, the five time governor, on his domestic policy? A governor who balanced his state's budget 11 straight years?

This Senator who is currently running a $600B deficit? Bang-up job so far, Edwards.

I think Dean has the credibility on this issue. Domestic policy is his platform's strength.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Balancing the budget on the backs of the middle class is a loser.
I doubt Dean will run on that platform should he win the nomination.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. All he wants to do is rescind the tax cuts,
and bring taxes back to where they were during the Clinton years. The benefits he speaks of, including his health care plan, can only be paid for in that way.

Why do you think Dean warns not to be fooled by the candidates that promise you everything? He's the real deal.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. It's a politically naive platform that won't play well in the general *nm*
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. there is no free lunch
Edited on Thu Dec-11-03 07:40 AM by spooky3
If middle class Americans had to pay what this war, tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate welfare, and other * initiatives have cost, perhaps they would be jolted out of voting for *. Right now, many of them are operating in denial and delusion. This is what Dean understands and it is a message that Americans need to hear until it sinks in.

Sadly, when I was younger, the "there is no free lunch" theme was often sounded by Republicans. Now they have found a way to stop fighting and join those who are delusional. Democrats must fight this.
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Frederic Bastiat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
27. Dumb, dumb, dumb
This is not democracy in any shape or form, rallying behind one nominee because he has the most "cash, charisma and cajones"? I'll grant Deanies that he has the cash but cojones and charisma is debatable, and speaking of debating - Dean is a horrible debater!
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. OMG, I stopped reading right here
because I was giggling so hard:

"Patrick Buchanan thinks so."

I think it'll be just as easy for me to donate to Dean *after* he gets the nomination, if necessary. Until then I'll back my preferred horses.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
50. Cancelling elections == Democracy
Did I wake up on opposite day or something?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
53. . . . .and the horse he rode in on
This is Ann Coulter-level stupid.

I'm a Democrat because I believe in democracy. I believe in the marketplace of ideas. I believe in getting down in the mud and fighting for what I believe and for candidates that I believe in.

I am not about to give up that right because Ted Rall or Al Gore says so.

And let me take a moment to counter this fucking "Yea, but Bush is so bad we have to . . . whatever" argument. Bush is bad. So was his dad. So was Reagan. So was Nixon. You could have made the same exact argument during any of their re-election bids. So, this is not a one-time thing - this "let's unite behind one candidate" bullshit. If it's Dean this year and he wins two terms, it will be "We need to unite behind Dean's successor to keep up the progress." If he loses, it will be "Let's unite behind Hillary" in 2008. Or Harold Ford. Or somebody.

Fuck anyone who tells me that unity is more important than my voice. We're Democrats. Remember what that fucking means.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
58. Cancelling primaries
So when do The People get to speak?

And while the Internet campaign was revolutionary and stunningly effective, what about people who are too poor to afford Internet access or too old and computer shy? Are you calling for their disenfranchisement?

Come to think of it, will the youngish, computer savvy Deanies even give a hoot about Medicare, Medicaid and other "old folks" issues?
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
82. I hear you
I have come across this type of ignorance this very day. It was shocking to witness.
There is a world, and real lives, outside of this screen folks.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. Unfortunately
Unfortunately you may be on to something. As this goes further on, it seems more like Dean's campaign is a what most of the his supporters are supporting, not the issues. Rhetoric over substance.

:(

TWL
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
59. Sorry but
we're Democrats.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
60. Once again Mr. Rall shows his true intellect.
.
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
61. Ted, ted, ted...to think I actually ever respected you and your opinion...
to put it bluntly-
A Dean candidacy means 4 more years of the Illegal Bush Regime & Military Junta...at least.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
63. whoever has the most money has the best chance
I agree with Rall.

Dean is the one that has gone to the grass roots--and has shown a certain amount of leadership savvy and skills in doing so--he has also shown his chutzpa--had Clark come into the race sooner the field may have evened up some. But, nevertheless, Dean has outshown the other candidates in his ability to go to grassroots and no only go to them but to organize the grassroots. I see a Dean sign already, first one, in front of someone's house in my small community here. This is his strength right now and it will continue to grow if he keeps up that strategy. Kerry is fine as far as a certain amount of respect may be garnered up because of his statesmanship and public service in the Senate is concerned, but he is also entrenched in that old boy club for too long, imo--he has done some wobbly :eyes: things lately also that causes one to doubt--Lieberman would never have been the choice in any primary and we should spare ourselves having to listen to him any longer, neither would Sharpton or Braun or Kucinich--no matter how much people would like to show their support in the voting booth-(I personally like Kuchinich)-or how much they are in love with their candidate's platform or personality

--this time it is time to be meticulously and ruthlessly practical. Gore, the ever farseeing man, showed us that--the election and the ousting of fascist Bush is crucial--even life saving.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Then appoint Bush to a second term because he'll have the most money *nm*
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. well
that goes without saying--he had the most money and won by devious means because he had the money to pay for it all--lawyers and such. I am not sure what Gore paid out for that fiasco, but I am inclined to think it cost him plenty to be represented before the Supreme Court and all the courts leading up to that. If the others, realizing their inability to do much against Dean in the primaries, would contribute to Dean what they have garnered so far, he , at least, would have a chance to approach Bush's treasure. That, I think is Rall's point,
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
92. exactly what the article said
are you and Ted Rall friends? :P

On another note. There has not even been a primary, it is utterly undemocratic to call the race for someone BEFORE A VOTE HAS BEEN CAST. Someone whose lead in the polls is almost 100% due to media coverage and henceforth NAME RECOGNITION.

I have to disagree with you on this one.

TWL
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
64. Oy! This ticks me off!
Could we like, you know, have a few VOTES first?????? I know this is a new concept for the media whores but if they try REAL hard, perhaps they can grasp the concept. :eyes:
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. thank you for saying that
ya know, success breeds success. Dr Dean gets a few primary wins under his belt in some hard fought precincts, gets on a roll and earns the nomination the old fashioned way.

This other shit sounds like the BCS fiasco to me
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
65. No Way
The primaries, as flawed as they are, is what keeps this democratic.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. "...Nader...for whom I voted in 1996 and 2000..."
Yep, this is somebody to listen to.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. To all of those who are outraged over the idea
that they NOT be able to vote in the primaries - that it isn't democratic, etc.

Guess what. My primary vote doesn't count. It's already decided way before May. So what?

It would mean more to me to have everyone vote - right now - on some internet site.

I basically have to live with whomever Iowa and New Hampshire and whatever states go first pick.

Is that democracy?

Rall arguement doesn't sound so far-fetched if you really want ABB.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. this is disgusting
Seriously. Who is this Ted Rall imbecile and where can I write to him so I can blast him for the democracy hating fascist bastard that he is?

I'm stunned that there are actually people here that agree with him. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! We still live in a democracy people! Let's get one thing straight here... annointing anyone at this point without a single vote cast is FASCIST!

Although I can see why some Dean supporters would love this idea... Dean wouldn't have to actually WIN the nomination! That would surely put an end to any fears that they may not, now wouldn't it? No worries about someone coming from behind to win the nomination like Clinton did, eh? It's no surprise that the only Dems that would find this to be even remotely a good idea are exclusively Dean supporters... including the nutball that wrote that piece of filth. "People Power" my ASS.

And here I thought I was on a forum for Democrats... who are DEMOCRATIC and believe in DEMOCRACY. Somehow I must have stumbled onto a site in some dictorial country that just looks like DU in the US.

What disgusting straight-up fascist swill, and piss on whoever is actually guzzling it.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. I don't agree with this
the primaries aren't over until they're over.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. Once again, another classy post from you
eom
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. "The election's over and we won. Get over it." Sound familiar?
Never imagined I would have my fellow Democrats throwing that one at me.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. and from someone who voted for Nader
Rall's on my shit list. Or is it poop list?
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
77. If he wins the nomination ~ I will rally around Dean
until then I've got my first choice. :)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. thanks
for me, it's ABB
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
81. Why the fuck should I take advice from a cartoonist?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
83. Crap.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
84. what really scares me
is that democrats would support this idea.
GAAAAH!
what happened to the peeples!
the undecides are winning and still deciding, and they get no election?
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
86. I like Rall
but this is nonsense. Why dont any of the pro-Dean folks wonder as to why so many democrats think Dean will be pulverized by Whistleass before they instruct us to all walk in lock step behind Dean? If Dean wins the nomination Im behind him 100%, but until that is done Ill be damned if I stay quiet while my party nominates cannon fodder (and I hope Im very wrong) to face Bush in 2004.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
87. It ain't over till it's over: the example of the Comeback Kid
Don't forget that Bill Clinton was NOT the "front-runner" early in the primaries, and he got his butt kicked in the first couple of primaries. Who WAS the front runner? I can't even rememeber now.

Dean has yet to receive A SINGLE VOTE. NOT ONE. But Rall and some dittospanks around here are ready to anoint him as the Democratic Party's standard bearer. They may be a bit premature.

Bake
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Some guy named Tsongas
won the New Hampshire primary in 1992 I think. Where is he now????
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. Also at this time in 1991, Clinton was polling at 4%
Not that I would compare Kucinich and Clinton politically. Kucinich is much more progressive. However I like the numbers :)

TWL

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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
90. Don't cancel them, have them simultaneously
On say, February 2. Get it over with so we can stop this bickering and support the candidate. I'm so freaking sick and tired of all the Dean/Clark bashing. It's enough to make me go and vote for Kucinich in protest. Eccch.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Vote for Kucinich if you agree with his platform
This is the primary - no such thing as a protest vote.
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ThirdWheelLegend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. What would you be protesting against?
The status quo? Republicrats?

:)

TWL
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