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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:32 PM
Original message
General Clark's "10 PLEDGES" on the Use of Force!
WES CLARK'S TEN PLEDGES

1. I pledge to all Americans that I will bring our soldiers home, with success in Iraq assured and America standing strong.

My strategy in Iraq will be guided by the following principles:

End the American monopoly. From the beginning, the Bush Administration has insisted on exclusive control of the Iraqi reconstruction and occupation. This has cost us the financial and military support of other nations and made America a bigger target for terrorists. Ending the American monopoly will change the way his enterprise is viewed -- in Iraq and throughout the world.

Change the force mix. The Bush Administration has failed to formulate an effective tactical plan. No such plan will be viable without substantial contributions from military leaders on the ground. Still, I would approach the problem as follows: consider adding troops; adapt to guerrilla war; better use intelligence resources, train Iraqi security forces, free up U.S. troops; engage neighbours for better border security; and secure ammunition.

Give the Iraqis a rising stake in our success. Iraqis will be more likely to meet the security challenge if we give them a greater stake in our success. That means establishing a sovereign government in Iraq right away. Because Americans chose the current governing council, many Iraqis see it as illegitimate. I believe we cannot transfer full authority to Iraqis before they have the capacity to succeed, but we should help the Iraqis quickly establish their own government to replace the existing council.

2. I will never ask our troops to risk the ultimate sacrifice or ask their families to pay the ultimate price of patriotism except as an absolute last resort.

As President, I will rebuild our relationships abroad and the alliances which maintain them. And I will strengthen them, so that we can solve problems together, so that the use of military force is our last resort not our first, and if America must act with force we can call on the military, financial, and moral resources of others.

Restoring our alliance with Europe is the first essential part of my broader strategy for American national security. President Bush has created a go-it-alone approach and declared the use of preemptive military force as the defining characteristic of his national security strategy. A Clark Administration would place our work with Europe and a reinvigorated NATO as a centerpiece of U.S. policy -- and then seek not to rely on preemptive force, but instead to use diplomatic, political, economic power and international law in support of preventive engagement. We would reserve the use of force for an absolutely last resort and then act together if possible and alone only if we must.

3. I will never send American soldiers into combat without a realistic plan to win and the forces necessary for victory.

The Administration failed to plan realistically for post-war Iraq. Instead of listening to the experts at the State Department and throughout the government, who predicted the danger of chaos and looting, the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his aides ignored their advice. Instead they relied on hope, hope that the Iraqi exiles would be accepted as legitimate, hope that the Iraqi police and military would provide security, hope that Iraqi oil revenues would finance reconstruction, and hope that we would be treated as liberators. How wrong they were -- you can't build a plan on hope.

Meanwhile, the President rejected the advice of the uniformed military that we deploy enough troops not only to defeat Saddam's military but also to secure Iraq after Saddam's defeat.

As a result, we saw chaos, we lost the trust of the Iraqi people -- and the enemy was emboldened.

4. The statements and actions of a Clark Administration will restore America's moral authority.

The Bush Administration has squandered in two years the moral authority America spent generations building. It started when President Bush said to the world, "you're either with us or against us." As a result, even some of those who were with us are now against us. And those, like Tony Blair, who are still with us pay a political price for it. America is hurt as well. We are less secure when our friends suffer for standing by our side. With fewer partners, we are left to meet dangers alone.

Even in Eastern Europe, there is dismay. These were some of the first countries in the world to support the Bush administration in Iraq. And what does this Administration do to its friends? In July, it suspends all U.S. military assistance to Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria because they have not yet promised Americans blanket immunity from the International Criminal Court.

One after another, American presidents have laid a foundation of moral authority for the United States. That foundation was built through our leadership in containing Communism, in promoting human rights, in helping the poor and the sick, and in promoting international law. That foundation has been splintered in a few short years.

Also, a key part of my strategy of preventive engagement is to lead the global fight against rising tide of AIDS. Although AIDS is a preventable and treatable disease, in 2003, 5 million people worldwide were newly infected with HIV and a record 3 million people died of AIDS -- more than all the deaths from wars and terrorism in the world combined.

I have a four-part Global AIDS Security Strategy:

Keep the U.S. commitment to combat AIDS, tuberculosis, and malaria worldwide - doubling funding to $30 billion by 2008.

Dedicate a large majority of U.S. funding to multilateral approaches like the Global Fund to Fight AIDS Tuberculosis and Malaria, while demanding results and additional commitments from our allies.

Base prevention and research efforts on the best available science, including overturning the global gag rule.


My Global AIDS Security Strategy will:

Prevent 14 million new HIV infections

Provide care and support for 20 million HIV-infected individuals and AIDS orphans

Provide treatment for 5 million people living with HIV/AIDS, including supporting the WHO goal of putting 3 million people on treatment by 2005

Accelerate the development of vaccines and cost-effective treatments to stop HIV, TB, malaria, and other infectious diseases


5. The guiding principle of our foreign policy will be to lead, not to bully.

This Administration has been all bully and no pulpit.

Simply put, this Administration is wrecking NATO -- and thereby doing incalculable damage to our security and well being. They have alienated our friends, dismissed their concerns, rejected their advice, and left America an isolated nation. I served in NATO twice, last as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. I know its value, see its promise, and if elected, I won't let it be destroyed.

General Eisenhower once said leadership is "persuading the other fellow to want to do what you want him to do." When America led the world for the last half century, others followed -- not because we compelled them, but because we convinced them. America needs a President who can lead.

As President, that's what I will do. I will rebuild our relationships abroad and the alliances which maintain them. And I will strengthen them, so that we can solve problems together, so that the use of military force is our last resort not our first, and if America must act with force we can call on the military, financial, and moral resources of others.

6. I will never challenge the patriotism of Americans who question my policies or express their disagreement.

In a recent ad, the Republican National Committee claimed: "Some are now attacking the President for attacking the terrorists."

The Republicans have tried to monopolize patriotism; I will not permit the Republican Party to steal patriotism.

I am not critical of President Bush because he is attacking terrorists; I'm critical of the President because he is NOT attacking terrorists.

7. In a Clark Administration, America will always have the strongest, best-trained, best-equipped military in the world.

During my 34 years of service in the United States Army, I held numerous staff and command positions - including Commander in Chief of the United States Southern Command and Director for Strategic Plans and Policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff - rising to the rank of four-star general and NATO Supreme Allied Commander.

As SACUER, I led Operation Allied Force, NATO's first major combat action, which saved 1.5 million Albanians from ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and did not result in the loss of a single American soldier.

I know the utility of a well-prepared U.S. military, and I know what it takes to make sure that the U.S. has the best military in the world.

As Commander in Chief of the United States, I will carefully examine our defense budget to ensure that we are providing our military the money and support it needs to adapt to the new challenges America faces and to have the strongest, best-trained, best-equipped military in the world.

8. America's military will be a complement, not substitute, for diplomacy, law, and leadership in the conduct of our international affairs.

We must reorganize our government so that we can bring to bear the economic, diplomatic and political tools in our arsenal. When we use the power of international law and diplomacy, we can achieve decisive results, even without decisive force.

A Clark Administration would place our work with Europe and a reinvigorated NATO as a centerpiece of U.S. policy -- and then seek not to rely on preemptive force, but instead to use diplomatic, political, economic power and international law in support of preventive engagement. We would reserve the use of force for an absolutely last resort and then act together if possible and alone only if we must.

The United States needs a cabinet-level or subcabinet-level agency that is charged with developing plans, programs, and personnel structures to assist in the areas of political and economic development abroad. Call it the Department of International Development. Focusing our humanitarian and developmental efforts through a single, responsible department will help us bring the same kind of sustained attention to alleviating deprivation, misery, ethnic conflict, and poverty that we have brought to the problem of warfare. These efforts will reduce the anger and alienation that gives rise to terrorism, and win us more friends and partners around the world. It will be far easier to gain international support for our concerns when other countries see us helping them on theirs.

9. I pledge to use all of my experience and determination to fight the terrorists who have attacked our country, to defeat them and to work to prevent them from rising again.

I will go after terrorists wherever they are - in Afghanistan or any other country. As a result of the Bush Administration's inadequate and misguided efforts, Osama bin Laden and many of the leaders of al Qaeda are still at large and continue to pose a great threat to the United States, our friends and allies, and various other states. I propose the following three-pronged strategy to refocus our energies on hunting down bin Laden and destroying the al Qaeda network.

Press Saudi Arabia to join U.S. forces in creating a U.S.-Saudi commando force to work the Afghan-Pakistani border where bin Laden is thought to be hiding. It's time for Saudi Arabia to take real action to destroy al Qaeda from the top down. It's not enough for them to pursue terrorism within their own borders. They need to join us in the battle worldwide.

Fully utilize the assets we already have on hand to hunt down bin Laden and destroy the al Qaeda network. Too many of our intelligence specialists, linguists, and special operations personnel are investing too much time and energy in Iraq in a fruitless search for weapons of mass destruction -- a task that could better be handled by international weapons inspectors. These inspectors are ready, willing, and able to perform this mission. This is a clear case where getting help from the international community to share the burden in Iraq will free up crucial resources to allow us to better fight the most significant threat to our homeland.

Repair our relationships with our allies and friends, and rely on international and regional institutions, like the United Nations and NATO. These institutions can provide vital support to American diplomacy, bringing in others to share the burdens and risks that we would otherwise carry alone.

10. And finally, by these pledges and with your support, as President I will make America more secure than it is today.

As President, I will ensure that we succeed in Iraq, that we focus our intelligence, diplomatic, financial, law enforcement and military resources on defeating al Qaeda, that we restore respect and support for America, and that we re-orient our foreign policy to meet the challenges of terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, international crime, and environment threats. Taken together, all of these steps will make America more secure.

http://www.clark04.com/issues/10pledges/

DTH
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for posting...at least Clark is really putting it on the line.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wes Clark keeps putting his plans out there
:)
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nice pledges
Can't argue with him here.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. He just keeps rolling n/t
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. This Is Excellent
I appreciate the well thought out plan - it addresses many issues and demonstrates a true grasp of the complexity of the situation.

It is not a sound bite situation - not a "bring em on" situation.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent....
I get more excited about him with each passing day.
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evil_orange_cat Donating Member (910 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well done Clark... but...
I have to ask... was bombing Kosovo for 78 days, including a church, the Chinese embassy, and a brewery (THE REAL ATROCITY); a last resort? hmmm?

especially when the Serbs were fighting Al Qaeda funded Albanian terrorist groups...

sheesh...

but I've forgiven Clark for his involvement there... while I'm leaning towards Dean, he and Clark are neck and neck as my favorite for the D nomination...

go DEMS!
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I'm sorry not to have an immedate link for you
But he broke it down point by point recently in an interview how it was the "last, last,last" resort. Again, I'm sorry for not providing a link. Perhaps someone has a link to that transcript.
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evil_orange_cat Donating Member (910 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. nah, don't worry about it
Kosovo is in the past... and if Clark is the guy that can turn this country around, I won't let that become an issue for me. :D
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You're not worried about it
You managed to get your slams in, so why bother reading the truth?
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Imalittleteapot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks. I'm sending link to every military person I know.
:kick:
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MrBadExample Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, now.
"Focusing our humanitarian and developmental efforts through a single, responsible department will help us bring the same kind of sustained attention to alleviating deprivation, misery, ethnic conflict, and poverty that we have brought to the problem of warfare."

Can't argue with that at all, or with several of his other points. Clark's been my number two choice for a while, and this makes me more certain of that.

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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Gee, I bet he wrote it himself!! It will be nice once again,
to have a literate and articulate president, and a ligitimate one, at that!!

I liked everything in the points, except the idea of 'consider added troops' . Now, if he can just get the nomination; that will be the tricky part.
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Did he? I don't know...
Sounds like a group effort, if you read it...

Not that it's wrong, I love the points! Kinda like the 12 points, but not. Yeah...rock on Gangsta C!
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I dont know either. But he easily could have.
Imagine Junior trying to do the same thing. It would be pathetic!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Watching the Clark town meeting on c-span last night
I daydreamed briefly about aWol being in the audience, like he could maybe get ideas on how to fix that which he has broken so badly.

But the more Clark talked, about dumbbell wealth and income stratification, and how to use value to get the economy back on track, nascent technologies, military and foreign policy, on and on, I realized that even sitting there, having it explained to him, Shrub just would not be up to it. He would be incapable of getting anything, probably incapable of even listening all the way through. He would need an advisor in tow, so that when it was over he could ask "So, what do I need to do? Cut taxes, OK. Syria? OK, fuck 'em, we're taking 'em out. Now where's my schedule, let's go to the ranch. Round up some reporters and pick out a good one to ride with me."

Dumbbell.



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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Imagine Junior having to debate Gen Clark!!!
If his handlers even allowed it. :evilgrin:

Yeah, the media whores would still give the debates to bush, but there is only so much that spin can do.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. This guy really wants the job America...are you listening?
I wonder if we can have a reasonable discussion on this (merits, ommisions, worthless platitudes, whatever). I think he is putting it on the line here but I know some DU'ers have major reservations about Clark. Well, lets hear them assuming you have read these pledges.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. That's an honorable thing to do.
Make a pledge to the people you wish to lead. I like that immensely! #5 pledge is superb!

5. The guiding principle of our foreign policy will be to lead, not to bully.

This Administration has been all bully and no pulpit.

Simply put, this Administration is wrecking NATO -- and thereby doing incalculable damage to our security and well being. They have alienated our friends, dismissed their concerns, rejected their advice, and left America an isolated nation. I served in NATO twice, last as Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. I know its value, see its promise, and if elected, I won't let it be destroyed.

General Eisenhower once said leadership is "persuading the other fellow to want to do what you want him to do." When America led the world for the last half century, others followed -- not because we compelled them, but because we convinced them. America needs a President who can lead.

As President, that's what I will do. I will rebuild our relationships abroad and the alliances which maintain them. And I will strengthen them, so that we can solve problems together, so that the use of military force is our last resort not our first, and if America must act with force we can call on the military, financial, and moral resources of others.
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kick
B-) :kick:
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. oh baby
This is the president I was promised as a child.

Landslide. We're talking landslide.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Isn't he amazing?!!!
I liked Bill Clinton A LOT, but THIS man has me on cloud 9. I kid you not. He is too good to be true! He was sent to us for a reason...by his son and wife :), to fix what Bush has destroyed. We HAVE to elect him and give him that chance. If he can't fix it, no one can! Every day I see something new from him and every day I say..."Wow!" He will be an EXTRAORDINARY President...just like his commercials say.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Yeah, if he can just get the nomination.
I have a horror of some group of Dem power brokers (DNC?) sidestepping Clark, and installing someone who can NOT win!! Just like in 1984. And I'm not referring to Dean, BTW.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here's a related article...
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=591712


Clark slams 'bring 'em on' Bush

From correspondents in Nashua, New Hampshire

December 5, 2003

CRITICISING President George W Bush for challenging enemy forces to "bring 'em on" earlier in the Iraq occupation, Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark said today only someone who has not witnessed combat "would ever say anything as fatuous" as the commander in chief's remark.


"You don't make policy by taunting the enemy," said Clark, a former NATO commander and retired Army general who was wounded during the Vietnam War. "Only someone who hasn't seen war firsthand would ever say anything as fatuous as 'bring 'em on'."
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moz4prez Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. well, christ on a bike!
the old bastard just won't quit! he's looking better and better with every public statement.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. You made me laugh
:7
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Filled with Glee
thats what I am! I was waiting for someone to come up with a good counter to that stupid Bush statement.

I'm changing my sig right now.
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imhotep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. #7 says it all
Defense corporations will be jumping for joy.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Ok then...
:eyes:
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. So we shouldn't have a military?
Edited on Thu Dec-04-03 07:14 PM by in_cog_ni_to
I think #8 followed up #7 quite well.

8. America's military will be a complement, not substitute, for diplomacy, law, and leadership in the conduct of our international affairs.

We must reorganize our government so that we can bring to bear the economic, diplomatic and political tools in our arsenal. When we use the power of international law and diplomacy, we can achieve decisive results, even without decisive force.

A Clark Administration would place our work with Europe and a reinvigorated NATO as a centerpiece of U.S. policy -- and then seek not to rely on preemptive force, but instead to use diplomatic, political, economic power and international law in support of preventive engagement. We would reserve the use of force for an absolutely last resort and then act together if possible and alone only if we must.

The United States needs a cabinet-level or subcabinet-level agency that is charged with developing plans, programs, and personnel structures to assist in the areas of political and economic development abroad. Call it the Department of International Development. Focusing our humanitarian and developmental efforts through a single, responsible department will help us bring the same kind of sustained attention to alleviating deprivation, misery, ethnic conflict, and poverty that we have brought to the problem of warfare. These efforts will reduce the anger and alienation that gives rise to terrorism, and win us more friends and partners around the world. It will be far easier to gain international support for our concerns when other countries see us helping them on theirs.


I don't think that if he implements #8 he will be spending billions of $$ on the military. DIPLOMACY first. If we have peace throughout the world, countries don't HATE us anymore and we have an open dialogue with them, why would he spend tons of $$$ on the military? I don't see it happening. Give the man a chance. He truly wants to try and fix what Bush has destroyed.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Precismo.
Like in the town meeting, when he answered the fellow's question about needing the draft reinstituted to keep the fodder pipeline to Iraq filled.

Clark said no draft, that he'd change the foreign policy, not the manning system.


(Shrub: 'What's a manning system?')

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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. What do I want?
General election.

NOW!

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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
31. it highlights that bush is and has done the opposite of all ten of these.
Clark will be a truly great President!
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
32. Clark doesnt understand this at all
There are only 4 rules for the use of 'force':
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Clark needs to play KOTOR more

(it's a joke people... if you dont get it, dont flame me)
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. If you're flamed, may the farce be with you.
:silly:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. I've said it before, I'll say it again
The Gods have chosen this man to lead us back to where we should be and on to what we are supposed to be!
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. This guy is kicking some serious booty these days. I am impressed. n/t.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Yes... I wish his campaign slogan could include
the words "kicking ass" (that's Bush ass, mind you) because it's so darn true.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
36. I think I just converted a republican!
My good friend that I worked with for 5 years and now keep in touch by phone. He has always voted republican for Prez. I read him the 10 Pledges and only the detail on about 4 or 5 of them. He was definitely interested and said he would look up some info on Clark tomorrow.

I tell ya, if this gets good exposure it will win us some moderate repub votes! And that is not because Clark is a republican in drag, its because people don't feel safer with the Chimp in Chief.
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. I've swayed a co-worker
I've been talking to her about Clark for weeks. Finally she started watching him. Now she loves him. I got her name on a Clark primary petition.

Ha, I nailed the copy machine repairman yesterday and got his signature on the petition.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. Good message
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. we're die-hard dems and for Clark for some time now.
ABB too by the way, but in our hearts and souls, Clark.
My mom told me to put two Clark stickers on her car and
I said, OK, the windows.

She said, "No. The bumpers."

If you knew my mother, you would know this is the second
coming. She HATES bumperstickers and NEVER had one in 72
years. But for Clark, bumperstickers.

Can I hear an amen?
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Amen
n/t
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. All I can say is Goddess help him if he pulls a "Nixon" on Iraq
I'm a Deanie. I will support the Dem nominee (except Lieberman, but that's a silly hypothet anyway) whoever it may be.

Sending more troops to Iraq is NOT going to work.....any more than sending 550,000 troops to Vietnam did. They want us gone, and the population there is becoming more cohesive in the fight to oust the infidels every day. It doesn't matter if its Nato troops, Shmato troops or whatever acronym you choose to use.

If this sonofabitch (or any of the others who will beat Smirky in 2004) don't get us the fuck out of that country, it will make Smirky's plan to cut and run look downright brilliant. Because that is what is going to happen, whether its right now or ten years from now. This "installing democracy" blather is silly, inept, mindless drivel from neo-cons who have no fucking sense of history or cultures other than our own.

If Dems fall into the neo-con trap, I'm bailing on this party and taking as many with me as I can. I fear that trap coming. I fear it worse than anything. I hear the Hillaries and others talking about how THEY will force democracy and western values on these arabs WAAAAAY better than Smirky can. They better not buy into this claptrap. It will be a mistake bigger than Lyndon Johnson, because the problem won't be isolated in South east Asia.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Did you read point #1?
He's already said that he's plan is to get us out of there.....

I didn't hear Dean saying anything different, Deanie! Did Dean say he'll bring home the troups the day after he takes the oath? Didn't think so....I heard Dean say we can't just leave iraq now that we are there....remember that?
Duh!

Clark said:

1. I pledge to all Americans that I will bring our soldiers home, with success in Iraq assured and America standing strong.

My strategy in Iraq will be guided by the following principles:

End the American monopoly.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. I like the way Clark articulates his ideas more than other candidates
I'm just being honest. I really do. I like listening to Gephardt too, however. Dean to be honest, is my least favorite to listen to.
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sexybomber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-03 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
47. Kudos to Clark!
I'd be happy to support him if Dean doesn't get the nomination.
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CivilRightsNow Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
48. So.....Why'd he say this?
After the fall of Baghdad, any remaining qualms Clark had about the wisdom of the war seemed to evaporate. "Liberation is at hand. Liberation-- the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions," Clark wrote in a London Times column (4/10/03). "Already the scent of victory is in the air." Though he had been critical of Pentagon tactics, Clark was exuberant about the results of "a lean plan, using only about a third of the ground combat power of the Gulf War. If the alternative to attacking in March with the equivalent of four divisions was to wait until late April to attack with five, they certainly made the right call."

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/clark-antiwar.html

Clark made bold predictions about the effect the war would have on the region: "Many Gulf states will hustle to praise their liberation from a sense of insecurity they were previously loath even to express. Egypt and Saudi Arabia will move slightly but perceptibly towards Western standards of human rights." George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair "should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt," Clark explained. "Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced."

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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Read the entire London Times column...
...not just those pull quotes.

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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. You attempt to make it sound as if the rest of Clark's speech
wasn't as damning, but it was and it was in April 2003.

He talks about "success" and "honor" and all the other military buzzwords--but that was the same argument used during Viet Nam---we must be successful, we must be victorius, we must win, our patriotic honor is at stake, but the deceptive reason that we are there to begin with NEVER enters into the equation.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. And?
"...but the deceptive reason that we are there to begin with NEVER enters into the equation."

The rationale behind the war wasn't the topic of the column. So what?
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CivilRightsNow Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. What a convient dismissal.
I suggest YOU read the rest of the London Times column.

baaah.. bahhh... smoke... mirrors... it's not here, its there.. no, its there.. no, really, look there.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. "A convenient dismissal"?
Project much?

I was simply stating that the rest of the column highlighted that the administration had yet to achieve, or even adequately define, it's post-war goals, which has been Clark's assertion from the beginning.

Geez.

"it's not here, its there.. no, its there.. no, really, look there."

Sounds a helluva lot like Dean's answer on "right to work" laws...
Baah baah baah, indeed.

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