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Dusty Baker refuses to back down from racially, factually dubious comments

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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 12:52 PM
Original message
Dusty Baker refuses to back down from racially, factually dubious comments
Cubs manager says history supports his remarks

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0707/1577825.html

CHICAGO -- Cubs manager Dusty Baker didn't back down Monday when asked about his recent comments that black and Latin players were better suited to play in the heat than white players.

"I meant what I said. ... I try to be as honest as possible, and if that's how I feel, then that's how I feel," he told reporters before Monday's game, a 6-3 win by the Cubs over Florida.

On Saturday, in another pregame talk with reporters, Baker said: "We were brought over here for the heat. Isn't that history? Your skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter-skinned people. I don't see brothers running around burnt."

Those comments have since prompted debate on radio shows and in newspaper columns across the country.

"It doesn't really matter to me because that's what I said. I'm not going to take it back," Baker said. "What I said to you guys is what I said to my team. I told my other teammates this a long time ago, too. When we talk about how hot it is, I told them that's why my ancestors were brought over here, for that reason, and that's history.

"My mother was a black-American history teacher in Sacramento," he said. "... A lot of people don't know history, that's what it sounds like to me. If they take it as reverse racism ... then they can take it wherever they want to take it."

How I take it is that a lot of people don't know human physiology or when to shut up, Dusty. Or the proper usage of conducive, for that matter.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. LOL! Dusty hasn't read recent studies that demonstrate pigmentation
is a "red herring!" (pun intended)
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BrettStah Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. He probably won't lose his job over this...
If he was white it'd be a different story though (see Jimmy the Greek for an example). Stupid thing to say though...
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yep, that's what I was thinking too
If he was white it'd be a different story though (see Jimmy the Greek for an example). Stupid thing to say though...

Maybe the heat got to his head before he spoke.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Baker agrees with this
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cubs/2003-07...

Baker, one of four African-Americans among seven minority managers in the major leagues, agrees. "But as a black manager, I can say things about blacks that a white manager can't say, and whites can say things about whites that blacks can't say."
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. That's bullshit...
Black comedians mock whites all the time.

It's funnier than hell when they do it, but still...It's an example of America's PC double standard. And an example that Dusty is full of shit.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
70. Come on
You're not going to pretend there's some kind of symmetry in our country's race relations are you? That's a huge fallacy, imo.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. BFD!,,,,,,,,,,,,such a thing as being too politically correct!
Good for Dusty Baker! Jeez!
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Good for him for spouting BS? Sure. OK.
In case it escaped your notice, what he said was utter bullshit, backed up by nothing and even phrased incorrectly.

The point is that others in the relatively recent past have been fired for similar comments, and he's still sitting pretty.
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. How can managing the Cubs
Be called 'sitting pretty'?

(All kidding aside, there is clearly a double standard at work here. Probably because he'll be managing the NL All-Star team next week, and to remove or suspend him would be as much a black eye (no pun intended) as Sosa's cork.)
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Zing! I didn't quite think of it from that angle.
Just going from the Giants to the Cubs in the first place seems like a total foot-in-bucket (to say nothing of this foot-in-mouth) move.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Good for him?
So it's a good idea to make comments that increase the racial divide. Yep. Great idea.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
89. can we now assign all the hot jobs to blacks and keep the whites in the
airconditioning?

after all...the blacks can take it.....
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Just more proof that race...
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 01:08 PM by GOPFighter
...is still a topic that is too touchy to dicuss rationally in public. It can bite you big time. Baker should just smile and walk away whenever this comes up again. :-(

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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. He wasn't discussing anything rationally
What, unless I've misunderstood your comment, was even remotely rational about his statements?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Right but wrong
Lighter skin evolved to absorb more UV energy from the sun, to make easier to manufacture Vitamin D in areas that got less sunlight (i.e., northern latitudes). So there is some biology/evolution behind skin color, but there is no evidence that it makes white/black/latin people any more or less suited to work in hot weather. Us paleskins just gotta remember the sunscreen.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. And to think, if his Giants hadn't choked last year, he'd be my hero
and I would just about now be digging in to my Tucker Carlson Brown Plate Special for lunch. Mmmm, very, uh, leathery...

I mean, really, ballplayers collectively have never been known for their brainpower, but managers?! Sheesh.
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Lady President Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Pardon the Interruption Discussed This Last Night
PTI discussed his statement yesterday and it apparently was some ill-conceived joke on Baker's part. While it doesn't strike me funny, the reporter in the background were howling with laughter. Sounds like he's trying to cover his poor attempt at humor with "history."

I wish one of the reporters had commented about it making no logical sense, but it seems like much ado about nothing to me.
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anti_shrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's much ado about something...
If a white manager had made these comments, there'd be a movement to ban him from baseball for eternity. Hell, people on DU would probably support it since it fits with the usual freep stereotype of the racist white guy.

Instead when a black guy says something racially stupid it gets dismissed as no big deal, and thats the double standard that keeps racism going. When it appears one side gets punished and the other doesn't, it makes racist assholes think they are right.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You are right, this is something we need to be very wary of
I am a believer in Afirmative Action but not out and out double standards. Why is it fine for a black entertainer to say Nigger but not for a white entertainer? Same goes for this incident. If a white manager had said the same thing they would be toast. We need some consistancy here. If words hurt then they hurt no matters who utters them. Black or White. IMHO
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Well
I know I'm going to get into trouble for this, but I didn't have a problem with Jimmy the Greek's comments, and I don't have a problem with Bakers.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. We agree. It's the double-standard I object to.
The comments were really just stupid, and not necessarily indicative of racism.

It's just that some white guys made such comments, and got handed their asses, big-time and pronto.

A black guy does the same thing and it's just his opinion, he's entitled to it, and he's still working.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. watching discussion on this right now on CNN
And I more agree with you -- it's the double standard.

Greek was quickly fired for his comments, as was another manager (can't recall his name - Campana(?)

and remember Marge Schott? She was crucified over remarks she made about how much she paid her black players.

It's not right that Dusty is not being made to account for his comments. Being black doesn't give him a free pass.
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Let him
try shoveling dirt, using a jackhammer in 95+ heat, and 80% humidity
I did it for a lot of years, and yeah, its tough, but He is a fool to say I can't handle it because I'm white.
When you got no other work, you gotta do it.
He should be held to the same standerds that everybody else is...fire him.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. He didn't say that.
He didn't say white people can't handle the heat, or were inferior, or anything like that.
That seems to be the hangup here, but he didn't say that.

He said that minorities have it easier because they come from heat, or whatever he said. That is not a slag toward white people.
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austinboy Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I'm with you Cat
Being black, myself, I know what Jimmy the Greek and Mr. Dusty here are saying. I also have no problem with it.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. me neither
but I think Jimmy was talking much more out of his ass than Baker was.

Baker's been standing out in the sun every summer for 30 years, with whites and blacks and latinos, maybe he's just speaking from experience.


The history lesson is a different story. I think he's way off on that.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think where he was coming from
(the history angle) is that Blacks and Latinos grew up and thrived in very hot climates, which (I think by his reasoning) makes them better suited to working in those conditions.

I do know that black slaves thrived in the South Carolina rice fields, an area that proved unhealthy to whites. And the slaves that worked those fields bought their expertise with them from Africa.

Native Americans couldn't cut it as slaves - but then they lived and thrived in extreme temperatures, too.
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NYYFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Well Said- that was the point
He just didn't express it very well.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. Jimmy the Greek
Jimmy the Greek was on his fifth drink or so when the reporter started asking him about race and sports. It was a trap and he fell into it.

Baker is just acting goofy.

And there is a huge problem with a double standard here. Both the Greek and Dusty are saying things about a subject they know little about. People should be aloud to talk about things they don't understand. People should be allowed to make ugly fools of themselves. But they should be treated equally when they do so. By the standards of Jimmy the Greek, Baker should be fired. Of course, I don't think either should be fired. So - if anything - the Greek deserves an apology. Too bad he's dead.

And he also owes my family money. The Prick. My cousin was a bookie when he lived in Steubenville and to his dying day claimed the Greek welched on a bet.

(By the way, Al Campanis is not the victim of a double standard. That was the case of a powerful executive saying the blacks don't have the "tools" to do certain jobs. It was unfortunate that the man who helped bring in Jackie Robinson said it since I don't think he truly believed it. But you can't have an executive making those types of statements. Baker and the Greek were spouting weird genetic theories about relatively harmless subjects).

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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Thanks for clearing that up about Campanis
that's not the position that was posed on CNN.

:hi:
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Hmmmmm....
You don't have a problem with Jimmy The Greek's comments?

I don't want to be the kind to throw around accusations but that seems racist to me.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. ah, the stalked becoming the stalker
no, I did not then have a problem with his comments, as I do not now.

I did not then consider his comments racist, and I do not now.

I did not then consider myself racist, and I do not now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. and I can't speak for others
I can only speak for myself.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Could have fooled me...
You said, and I paraphrase: "It seems the word racist gets thrown around a lot any time a black person speaks out on anything."

Obviously, you were implying those who speak out against what they perceive as black racists, are, themselves, racist. You quite OBVIOUSLY based this on the fact that they spoke out against what they perceive as black racists, and NOTHING more.

In other words, you spoke FOR them. You labled them a "Racist".

No....

You "Speak" for others quite often...As a matter of fact, you did so only about an hour ago. So, what shall we call you for stating this obvious falsehood? Since you claim that only you can speak for you, I'll let you decide on what to call you.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. meanwhile...lott is just a kindly fellow
who is nice to old segregationists, and their friends. talk about a double standard! someone does need to take a look in the mirror.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. YEP
That pot and kettle might as well make it official.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. how does his statement "hurt" you?
please explain. i know for dang sure that my pale northern european skin is NOT suited for the hot sun and i have the skin cancer to prove it. i don't think he's saying anything that people don't already know.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. curious: what does this have to do with affirmative action?
and i do think context is important. i'm black and i don't use the n-word at all...but cleary the word has different meanings in different contexts. enimem is a white entertainer...he doesn't seem to get much heat for using the word. i've heard kids of all races use it as a term of endearment. clearly...the words means diffrent things to different people.

an informal survey, if you will.

how many times do you think the n-word has been used on DU?
how many time has it been used by black posters?

it's not as "ok" with black people as you may think.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Affirmative Action means to me special consideration
Special consideration is one thing ~ double standard is another. I don't think rudeness should be grounds for special consideration. Every time I hear anyone use the word nigger it causes my skin to crawl. I hear it often on BET and Def Comedy. I hear it very rarely from other sources. My point was if a word is hurtful it is hurtful no matter who uses the word. It may not hurt the user but others that hear may be offended. I am one of those that gets easily offended. Things get carried away at times and this may be one case where that's true. I disagree that Blacks were enslaved because they can withstand heat better than whites. They were enslaved because they provided Free labor. Remember there were slaves in other states besides the South.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
66. if it's so offensive, then why do you keep using it?
this is the double standard i was referring to. as to double standards, ones that have considerably more impact than does mr. baker's situation, may i refer you to the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania? legacy admission, awol, cokehead, drunk driver...and HE'S the pResident! that double standard is far more problemmatic, imho than what you're talking about.
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beanball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
68.  The N word
when spoken by a black person is acceptable to most blacks because when a white person uses it old memories return,when a black use the word cracker,its not the same as the N word when used by whites,you have to be black to understand the difference.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. i don't understand why
this is so hard to comprehend. i am not in the habit of using slurs against to describe anyone, but there are a lot of slurs that are used intra-group that are not acceptable when used by someone outside the group.
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southernfried Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. is it odd that Jimmie the Greek gets vilified and Dusty doesn't ?
or, explain how one's remark differs from the other's ?
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. So,
your saying that my experiances dont count?
S.C. weather unhealthy for whites, where did you get that?
Look, humans can do anything they have to. period. For someone to say "Whites cant do it" is a lie, because I did.
Oh, it's racist to boot.
He should be held the standards of his position.
What horseshit for anyone to say that just because he is black he can say something like that.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. you forget
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 02:16 PM by seekthetruth
white people aren't native to america....and neither is our skin.



*on edit, fixed typo
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Yes, but where are all the white players collapsing from the heat?
Do they somehow throw slower? Hit the ball shorter distances? Perhaps all that sweat clouds their vision.

Baker cannot support or qualify his statement with any real effects the heat might have on players from different ancestral backgrounds, and there is no data that would back him up.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. are you responding to me?
:shrug:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. explain the similarities, would you please?
i've forgotten jimmie the greek's comment.
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southernfried Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. that blacks were blessed with physiques more conducive to
sports than whites as a matter of genetics. Ergo, the dominance of black athletes in major sports. There may have been more but, as you suggest, its been a while.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. thanks...i vaguely remember
obviously, his comments didn't have a big impact on me. i wonder if firing is the best way to handle these types of insensitive comments. jimmie the greek said what a lot of people think...it seems to me using these types of incidents as public learning opportunities is a much better way to address racism than vilifying individuals. i actually felt sorry for jimme the greek; i don't think making a racist comment necessarily means one is racist.

and baker should just apologize instead of trying to justify what he said.

trent lott, on the other hand, should have been removed from office. it's THAT double standard i have a BIG problem with.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. What he actually said was a little different
It was January 1988, he casually, off-handedly (and on the air) mused to a TV reporter that slave owners had bred blacks to produce the best physical specimens, and he thought this contributed to black success in sports.

If you've got Quicktime, here's the footage: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/almanac/video/1988/jim...
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. thanks...
i still don't like the compulsion to brand someone a racist because of one stupid remark...the media hype...the demands for apologies...firings, and on. an apology should be sufficient...the rest seems like superficial overkill. and, it does nothing to address real racial problems.

lott earned the label "racist" because his deeds and comments..i don't know if this is the case with either jimmie the greek or dusty baker.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Jimmy said that the darwinism of surviving the slave ships is what
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 03:11 PM by Classical_Liberal
made blacks superior athletes which is rather contraindicated imho. What type of physic does disease, starvation and lack of sunlight favor? It ain't Michael Jordan! However the comment was more stupid than racist. If Baker was referring to the tendency to sunburn, he is on scientific grounds, so no I am not overly outraged even though I admit this would get a white guy fired.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I think...
...he was speaking of "Survival of the fittest".
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. no dah, but adaptation and athletic aren't the same thing
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 04:19 PM by Classical_Liberal
otherwise we would all be athletes. If anything a big athletic person would be a disadvantage on a slave ship, as they require more food.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Or...
...they could survive longer without food by living off their body mass.


And besides, as pointed out above...His comments concerned "Breeding", not survival on the slave ships.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. He also made comments about survival on slave ships
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 04:34 PM by Classical_Liberal
at least that is what I saw in the footage on television. They could only live off mass if they are big because they are fat. Fat and athletic certainly aren't similar or corresponding traits.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Sorry...
...Missed that.

But still, while I have NO IDEA what I'm talkng about...I would have to think that an atheltic person could survive a lot longer than a less athetic person. In most any condition. Including starvation and desease.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. Not true. Lack of food is the reason Shetlands are smaller than
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 04:57 PM by Classical_Liberal
Thoroughbreds. The Shetland isles are very barren. The places that aren't barren are forested. The small stature helped them hide from preditors. The larger horses come from places that were grassy all year, though they had very little forest, they run from preditors. Shetlands are no where near as athletic. Human beings aren't entirely dependent on their physic for survival. Though before the invention of housing and clothing and stuff that may have been the case.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Trent Lott...
...was just being nice to a 100 year old man.

It's great that we were able to smear the Repukes and make him step down but I doubt that anything "Racist" was running through his mind (Or even subconsience mind) when he said that.

I make up all kinds of shit when speaking to my friends 92 year old grandmaw...Just to make her feel good. I think Lott was doing the same thing.
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SweetZombieJesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Uh huh...because there wasn't any established history of Lott making..
racist comments. Surely a high ranking Republican isn't a racist! That's crazy talk!

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of you defending the indefensible.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I don't see any "Facts" in your post.
Of course some would consider that hypocrital.

Please provide a FACT that shows Lott was being "Racist" in his comments. "FACTS" only. Not assumptions...Not opinion...Just "FACTS" as you put it.
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SweetZombieJesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Look it up
Lott made many comments prior to that one about Thurmond's Dixiecrat campaign, a horribly divisive political campaign that helped legitamize racial violence in the South during the Civil Rights movement.

ANYONE who makes a nod and a wink statement like the one Lott made about Thurmond's presidential campaign, which was based on a platform of RACISM, is a racist.

Your defense of Lott is a new low. Congrats.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
93. Trent Lott's history
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 11:54 PM by dsc
I really think you need to rethink the idea that Lott has no history here. At the time of the contraversy over his latest mistep (the birthday party) it was pointed out that he said the very same thing in MS in either 80 or 81. He also is a member of and wrote articles for the Conservative Citizen's Council. His column was pubished in one and only one outlet and that was the outlet. Sorry but if that isn't a racist history then I haven't any idea what is.

www.truthinstitute.org/Trent_Lott_FA_vol1_1.htm

Here is a fairly long excerpt from the site. It is though well less than 1/4 of the whole thing. I usually don't quote quite this much but I think this should still be fair use. MODS I am going to bed after this post. If I quoted too much please edit don't remove.


After urging those at the gathering to increase their recruiting efforts for the "conservative" cause, Lott concluded his address praising CCC members stating, "The people in this room stand for the right principles and the right philosophy. Let's take it in the right direction and our children will be the beneficiaries!"

Senator Lott also addressed an event sponsored by the Carrol County (Mississippi) chapter of the CCC on July 22, 1995, according to a article and photos in the Summer 1995 edition of Citizens Informer.

According to their sources, Lott is "one of the leading political figures promoting the Neo-Confederate causea movement said to be filled with racism and other forms of bigotry."

Lott has been instrumental in leading the fight for tax breaks for Bob Jones University and other segregated schools and according to FAIR "was the leading advocate for the successful drive to reinstate the citizenship of Confederate States of America President Jefferson Davis." Davis was a staunch secessionist for the Confederate South, and indicted for treason in 1866.

Trent Lott's history of involvement with the CCC:

In 1997 Lott met held a private meeting with CCC leaders in his Washington, D.C. office, a photo and account of the meeting appeared in the CCC's publication, Citizens Informer, later that year.

In 1997 the CCC used an endorsement quote from Lott for a direct mailing campaign.

In 1995 Lott addressed an audience in attendance at a Mississippi-based CCC
event

In 1992 Lott was the featured speaker and issued strong praise of the CCC at its national conference.

The Spring 1989 edition of Citizens Informer, features a photo of Lott with his uncle, who is identified as an executive of the CCC, and his cousin, who's identified as a CCC general member.
Lott's column has been a regular feature of Citizens Informer for several years.

Now if a person about whom all of the above is true isn't a racist what in heaven's name is he?
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. So, what he said was OK, then
It's OK to imply that had a segragationist been elected, everything would be great in this country? Give me a break. Even if there was no racism present, he should've realized what he was about to say would be seen that way.
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Oh YES!!!
He set himself up and should be defeated based on being a DUMBASS, no doubt.

I'm just saying that it looked like he was just smoozing a 100 year old man.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. there's nothing "racist" about longing for segregation
nothing at all. yeah...he was just being "nice" to the man who ran for president in 1948 on a segregationist platform. did you know one of the quaint customs that plaform wanted to "preserve" was lynching? check it out for yourself...it's on the internet. if that's you idea of making someone "feel good"...
and lott STILL has a job, btw.
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. The Republicans made Lott step down
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 04:23 PM by CatWoman
It's great that we were able to smear the Repukes and make him step down

Everyone from Bush* down treated him like he had the plague.

Compare their level of support for Santorum opposed to that given to Lott.

Besides, Bush & company wanted Lott out of the way so that Frist could become senate leader. Those comments Lott made were just the opening the Bush* syndicate needed.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. OMG, I can't believe you said that
unbelievable!!!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
92. Then what was he doing when
he said it in 1980 and Thurmond was no where to be seen?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
91. there was more......
he said that they were bred to be big and strong boned in the slave days.....probably true.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Wow, I must be really young or something.
Because I don't have one problem with what he said.
I don't think he should be fired, or fined, or anything.

It wasn't a derogatory comment, or slighting another racial group.

People say things about their own group all the time. Is it racist?
I think it can reinforce a negative stereotype sometimes (like an Irish comic I knew saying "yeah, us Irish, we can really hold our liquor, huh"), but I don't see Baker's comments that way at all.

It does sound like this guy may have a chip on his shoulder, and at the first negative comment, THEN I'd dismiss him/fine him/whatever.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I don't think it's racist, I think it was stupid
It wasn't a derogatory comment, or slighting another racial group.

As in racially, factually (and historically) dubious.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Dubious?
I don't see black people getting sunburned regularly. Do you?
I don't see black folks buying sunscreen that much. That much of what he said is absolutely true. We have more melanin in our skin.

He didn't say that white people were weak, or would faint in the heat, or anything like that. He just said that minority people come from heat. Which, I'd have to say, seems to be true just thinking about it right now. I don't think it's dubious.

I don't know why Africans were brought over here as opposed to Native Americans or anyone else. That portion may indeed be dubious.

:shrug:
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TheUnionDemocrat Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
44. Any scientists here?
I've got just one question...A question that has always made me wonder....

The color black absorbs heat. The color white reflects it. We know this based on our cars.

Shouldn't that mean blacks absorb more heat and therefore would have a harder time in the sun than whites?

Of course neither are truly "Black" or "White" but this seemingly contridiction of physics(?) has always made me wonder....
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. try google
from "the function of melanin..."
http://www.drproctor.com/os/melaninfunction.htm

...Aside from camouflage, its other roles can be brought together by a unifying hypothesis as first proposed by Proctor and McGinness nearly 20 years ago. Melanin is envisaged as an energy transducer with the properties of an amorphous semiconductor. It can absorb many different types of energy and dissipate them in the form of heat. However, if the energy input is too great, the output can be expressed in the form of activated chemical species that can damage cellular macromolecules resulting in cell death, mutations and cancer. The protective aspect of melanin in dark skin is seen as resulting from its high concentration and its confinement to ellipsoidal and densely packed organelles that can effectively shield the nucleus. In light skin, its radical nature is seen as potentially participating in the carcinogenic process, particularly when overwhelmed by intense episodes of sunburn.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Eh, hold on a sec, T.
Many white people are, by nature, racist.

So racism is genetic? That's awfully thin ice you're walking on.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
59. I care more about what Bush thinks than Dusty Baker thinks
.
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haymaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
61. Aren't Latino and black players' ancestry
generally from hotter parts of the globe? Wouldn't it seem more logical that they might not be as bothered by the heat?

If you HEARD his statements, he also said you don't see "many brothers from New Hampshire, Maine, and the Upper Peninsula" or something like that. Is that factually innacurate?

Who really gives a damn about this? It is just one man's opinion. But I would have to agree that blacks and latinos probably tolerate the heat better. I am not sure about the "that's why we were brought over here" thing, but how many of us have thought about slavery through the mind of a slave owner or trader. They had to have known it is hotter in Africa than it is in Alabama, and a black field hand could work longer hours than say, an Irish immigrant escaping the famine

Si or no?
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
73. This is BS
He sounds like the authors of the Bell Curve.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Except he's a baseball manager
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 04:51 PM by Cocoa
and they're social scientists.

And they're white and he's black.

And they arguably claimed that blacks are less intelligent than whites, and he didn't.

Other than that, yeah I see the similarity.

edit: neat, we can edit subject lines!
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. It's the double-standard
If anyone argues in any way, shape, or form that whites might be better at something, they get crucified. That's the problem I see. Why do some people get a free pass to say whatever they want while others get blasted?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. I wouldn't really care if a white baseball manager said
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 05:29 PM by Classical_Liberal
whites do better in winter(unfounded generalization) because they evolved to be white as a result of low sunlight in Europe, (scientifically true). He is a baseball manager, and I don't care what he thinks really.
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. I see no difference
They are giving the likes of Hernnstein and Murray credibility. And while he may not be making that point DIRECTLY, he is still laying the groundwork for it.

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. He was talking sunburns not IQs
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 05:16 PM by Classical_Liberal
.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. i always expect depth from you
and you never fail to disappoint. please explain to me how this one man's comment compares to the theory presented in 'the bell curve?"
please...i would love to hear how you came up with this one. one way they don't compare: no one is paying baker for his opinions about race. i eagerly await your response.
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classics Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
75. People who evolved in hotter climates will deal with heat better.
Skin color is only a small part of it.

For example those who spend many generations in cold areas genetically adapt by becoming fatter, thier skin loses much of its melatonin protection from the sun since its not required. Basal heart rate increases, as does blood pressure.

The whole reason people look different, black, white, yellow, thin, fat, tall, short, etc, has everything to do with long term enviromental adaptation.

This guy is a little crude in expressing it, but the idea is sound.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-08-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. There is a caveat
Edited on Tue Jul-08-03 05:05 PM by Classical_Liberal
Eskimos live in colder climates than scandanavians, and aren't lighter. Why, because they had vitamin d in there diet from eating musk ox. Scandanavians are also taller and thinner on average than Italians who live in hotter climates. If you build a warm house you don't have to become shorter and fatter. In fact eskimos aren't nearly as stout as once thought. Their clothing makes them look that way. Human beings also adapt to their environment through behavior. Not just physic.
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