I must admit, I was wrong in my assessment of the Cincinnati event

[Walt Starr]

With 96 seconds of missing footage, I must give the suspect who died the benefit of the doubt regardless of drug content or anything in the existing footage.

Unless and until the cops produce the missing footage, I can only conclude that the suspect was reacting to an unjustified physical assault by the cops and was therefore, acting in self defense.

In other words, until the cops produce those missing 96 seconds, I have no choice but to believe that at a minimum, the cops are guilty of manslaughter.

Until I see those 96 seconds, I stand corrected on my assessment of the incident.

Edited for Spelling

[rjbcar27]

1. Class

Kudos Walt.

[Walt Starr]

2. Nope, not class

I was wrong and I must publically admit to being wrong.

[wysimdnwyg]

3. I agree with rjbcar27

It takes a strong person to admit when he's wrong. (I guess that shows the true weakness of those in the White House.)

[pistoff democrat]

4. Okay, then, if you prefer: not class.

However, you have the kind of integrity that is rarely found anywhere.

I don't know that we'll ever see the missing seconds, but I do know the terrible history of police abuse ... and that it is aimed more times than not at a person of color.

Please don't anyone tell me one of the policemen was black. I know that, too. Call it 'aping the aggressor', trying to fit in or kissing ass...whatever...it doesn't change the salient facts.

Also, Walt, please recall the recent Cincinnati "troubles" between the police and the black community ...

[rjbcar27]

5. It takes class to do that

I have seen the video of it and I was sickened. Admitedly, I wasn't aware that he'd allegedly assaulted the officers, but my initial reaction was one of horror. I saw your reaction to the events and while I understood your argument I felt you were wrong. Just my personal opinion, but what you rarely see is people admitting they were wrong. (Maybe you aren't, we still haven't seen the full tape)

Cheers.

[Nlighten1]

6. But

it takes class and coolness to admit when you are wrong. Some people on this board just can't bring themselves to do it even when the truth is staring them in the face.

I wasn't aware that there was 96 seconds missing of that tape. That is funny too because the news website that I viewed it from said "unedited version". I thought it was odd that there appeared to be a skipped spot in an "unedited" tape.

[Walt Starr]

9. Thanks to those who responded, but I don't feel I deserve it

I had heard some information that there may be some missing footage yesterday. I saw it was confirmed today. MSNBC claimed they were going to show the missing footage but then didn't per another post.

If the cops had to edit 96 seconds before presenting this to the public, then the entire event stinks of corruption, coverup, and conspiracy.

If it is ever shown that cops deliberately edited the 96 seconds because of an attempt to coverup an assault by cops, then a lot more than six cops need to go down for felony murder. And they should all get the maximum penalty should that happen.

[el_gato]

7. the only purpose cops exist is to enslave us all

and protect the uber-elite

it has nothing to do with justice at all

[stopthegop]

8. until YOU get mugged...

then you'll think of another purpose for cops...

[el_gato]

10. If you have already been mugged what the hell difference would it make

none

[stopthegop]

11. sure...

you wouldn't want the mugger stopped or caught...your premise is pathetic...
have a good day

[el_gato]

16. whatever

they don't investigate that type of petty crime anyway

weaklings always want to be protected
I'll protect myself thank you

[stopthegop]

21. feel free to protect yourself...

just don't violate anyone's rights....pretty easy to do

[el_gato]

22. your right it is pretty easy

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[el_gato]

34. your beloved cops

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[el_gato]

43. yes your phoney rants make no sense, it is not my problem

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[Blue_Chill]

46. What??!!

[Galley_Queen]

63. A Bunny with a Pancake

on its head?

ROTFLMAO!!! I LOVE it!

:bounce:

[WillyT]

67. Bwahahahahahahahaha !!! Blue_Chill, That's Perfect !!!

May we steal, er... use it???

:hi:

[KensPen]

13. there are good cops

and there are bad cops.

But to demonize them all is twisted logic.

To say you believe they are guilty until they prove themselves innocent is twisted logic.

What I saw was a huge man who was attacking the officers and refusing to submit. Now a man is dead, and it should be investigated. But I cannot watch that tape and see it as excessive force and manslaughter.

[el_gato]

68. it's just a fact

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=809955

the institution of policing was started to protect the merchant class, the precursor of todays corporate establishment.

[Nlighten1]

15. what if

you get "mugged" by a cop? Have you ever been a victim of police violence? The cops aren't your friend sunshine.

[rbnyc]

14. When most people who decide to become cops...

...make that decision, I really don't think that's what they are thinking.

[tkulesa]

35. Then what are they thinking?

I have a brother who wanted to be a cop solely because of the authority and the chance it would give him to beat people up. He used to talk about this openly. We're all lucky he never made it onto a police force.

I now live in NYC, and how many police brutality cases get heard and dismissed by the review boards here? Certainly an order of magnatude more than we hear about. We only hear about it when the police kill someone, and that happens all too often.

I have gone to the police with normal stuff and never had a good experience. I have filed a missing person report on a missing friend and had them laugh and say that he was just my gay lover who had decided to find someone else. I have had my home broken into and had the cops say, "so why did you call us?" I have been mugged and had the cops refuse to even take the descriptions of the guys who did it.

Then there is how they deal with any type of peace group or protest.

I understand that in theory the police are there to help us. But I don't see it in practice.

[Padraig18]

17. That's an outrageous statement, el_gato!

Police officers do all manner of good deeds you seldom even hear about, they solve crimes, they help our society to run to function in a semi-orderly fashion, etc. . Do you favor anarchy? :eyes:

[el_gato]

19. how quaint

I guess you think they did a good job in miami recently too.

[el_gato]

60. here is some info regarding my statement

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=809955

and there is nothing outrageous about my position, unless reality is outrageous

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[Blue_Chill]

53. When have I ever endorsed police brutality?

I don't agree with this beating they gave this man nor do I agree with many other things cops have done. I stop short however of holding all cops responsible for the actions of a few.

[el_gato]

58. i've posted some information regarding this idea here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=809955

[Loonman]

12. But you're still assuming before all the facts are in

I saw the guy lunge at one of the cops, and I assume that is resisting.

[el_gato]

18. they beat you and if you try to defend yourself

it's a crime

that is fucked

[Loonman]

20. Read the "anarchist cookbook"

"Defending yourself" from an arrest is known as........resisting.

You do not resist. You do not give the cops and excuse to say you are resisting.


That book and others on activism and protesting and whatnot have procedures to follow when you are being arrested.

When you are arrested, for any reason, you do not resist!

Simple.

[el_gato]

24. yes but

when you are getting bashed in the head with a nightstick it's hard not to put your hand up to protect yourself and this is what often happens when people are accused of resisting.

[Walt Starr]

26. I'm sorry, but the cops are responsible for the tape

The fact that 96 seconds are missing paints the cops as covering something up, else they would not have removed 96 seconds.

One way or the other, one side must be given the benefit of the doubt. Since the cops failed to produce the missing footage, I must give the benefit of the doubt to the suspect until the footage is produced.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. No he is assuming he does not know all that occurred

He doesn't. That is a sign of intelligence.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Thanks Walt..it is a reminder to all of us to withhold judgement

until the facts are known. Some are saying he died of a heart attack, but if the poice were any other defendents in a criminal prosecution, this defense really wouldn't protect them since the beating may have been the proximate cause of the heart attack even WITH the drugs in his system.

Another aspect of this case which has NOT been evaluated is this: Cincinatti, as with other large communities (LA, NY City, Philly) engages in a concept known as paramilitary style policing. These SAME communities have been calling for community style policing for years but somehow, paramilitary style always seems to win out.

After violent incidents involving officers occur, there is often some type of blue-ribbon commmission that evaluates and the recommendation is ALMOST ALWAYS for more community based policing (which involves different training styles) Somehow, this almost ALWAYS gets ignored.

I don't envy police officers, they have a very tough job..but the paradigm in which they are being trained to DO that job..actually dictates the actions they will take under pressure.

It's worth a look.

On edit: Interesting, Papau posted this in Justice/Public Safety right after I posted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=25795

[1songbird]

45. It all starts at the top with the Chief of Police

Let me fill you in on what's happening here. There was a vote taken to allow the city of Cincy to hire a police chief from other cities. This was highly contested by the FOP and even the Mayor of the city, but the citizens voted overwhelmingly to adapt the resolution. Well the powerful FOP challenged the vote and our City Manager and Mayor let them get away with throwing out the city's resolution to hire from the outside. We are now stuck with a Police Chief and Assistant Chiefs who refuse to change their style. Let me also mention that the Chief has gotten into trouble for using the N-word repeatedly to black officers and he has never gotten into trouble. Things won't change until leadership at the top changes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. It is definitely a TOP DOWN phenomena

Darryl Gates demonstrated this perfectly as well but I don't really think it has so much to do with hiring from within or without. We had several community based candidates in LA last year when Bratton (a paramilitary style davocate) was chosen.

[1songbird]

56. It just takes a change in philosophy accompanied with fresh ideas

I don't think we will ever get this from within our department.

[1songbird]

31. Thank you for being open-minded.

We just want to have all of the facts here in Cincy. The last police killing here was caught on tape and there was no controversy because the whole tape showed that the officer was clearly in the right. It was a guy who had been caught burglarizing a store and tried to take the officers gun in the ensuing scuffle. There was no missing footage. Everyone was supportive of the cop. This recent case reeks of impropriety because of what we are not seeing.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. That's a very noble statement.

I'll admit I didn't like that you were quick to blame the big guy and excuse the cops at any cost but I think this is very noble for you to let everyone know. Thanks.

[Blue_Chill]

37. I saw the video and just don't understand when the situation may call

for stabbing at someone with a club. This doesn't help control them, if anything it scares them shitless making it more likely for them to panic and react in self defense.

They had the guy when they jumped on him, but instead of wrestling with him and calling for back up they stood up and beat the guy. That's just wrong.

[Loonman]

38. When you turn the flashing lights off the camera stops

The guy probably did not seem like a threat, initially, so the flashing lights went off, and so did the camera.

There's your big conspiracy.

[1songbird]

49. No sorry some of the cops here have addressed this and they

disagree. We are about to have Retired Col. Twitty discuss these matters on the local radio station here. The video stream does not work for 1230thebuzz.com unfortunately, but I will call and ask him specifically about this and report back.

[1songbird]

54. Here is the official deal on the police cameras from Lt. Col Ron Twitty

29 year retired CPD Assistant Police Cheif. Police camera's are activated when the lights and the sirens on a car are turned on. The camera does not go off unless there is a malfunction or it is turned off manually from that point on regardless. The camera was initially on when the police arrived on the scene because there is initial footage of Nathanial prior to any outburst. Forget the crap story about the lights because it is not true.

A camera can be turned on by an officer by remote control. All 6 of the cameras should have been on but for some reason there has been no video shown from the other cameras. Turning a camera off during an encounter has to be reported to a police supervisor and justified. This whole thing stinks and the CPD knows it and they are now spinning this story.

[Walt Starr]

57. So there can be little doubt

What we have here is a conspiracy involving the death of a man.

[1songbird]

59. I could be wrong but it sure looks like it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Actually that is also jumping to a conclusion

unless there is currently proof that someone SHUT OFF the camera. It is too early to claim conspiracy versus error.

[Booberdawg]

72. So this is the 96 seconds of footage being referred to that is missing?

[Catherine Vincent]

50. Wow!

I don't think I've seen that many deleted posts in one thread. LOL!

[ecstatic]

51. Thanks for being open minded nt

[Walt Starr]

55. The most unfortunate thing about this is those missing 96 seconds will

add up to two words in a jury's mind.

Reasonable Doubt.

It's unfortunate, but true. No jury is going to convict the cops because they will never be presented the necessary evidence to convict. The best that can be hoped for would be a hung jury.

[FredScuttle]

52. Cheers to you Walt

I'm sorry that this degenerated into a moronic, knee-jerk anti-cop thread, but you are to be applauded for displaying an honesty that is all too rare.

I wouldn't call you "wrong", but I'm glad that you've taken into consideration the suspicious actions of the police involved.

I'm of the mind that cops have a thankless job and we should acknowledge the integrity and courage of those who do their jobs well and within the law...however, cops who use their shields as a license to assault and victimize certain segments of society get no sympathy from me.

[CatWoman]

61. Walt -- I saw your comments in Dr. Weird's thread

you were one of the very first to back the police.

Then I watched a report on Countdown last night, and this woman was aksing the very same question. What happened BEFORE the police arrived, and where is the rest of the tape?

The police were called because the guy was passed out behind a restaurant or something. The firemen responded, and it was the firemen who called the police.

Really got me to thinking.

Kudos to you -- takes a big man to admit he may be wrong.

Can't say that you were wrong, becuase we have got to see what's on the unviewed 90 seconds of that tape.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. They are actually lucky that drugs were found in his system

In most communities cops have very poor training in recognizing and distinguishing drug use from behaviors common to brain injuries and developmental disabilities. I know. I worked with an organization that put on seminars to train officers after a series of incidents in California in which brain injured individuals were beaten under the assumption that they were on drugs.

[SmokeyBlues]

62. Let's all wait and see

There's no doubt that a scuffle broke out between the deceased and the police who first arrived at the scene. We even saw the deceased throwing a wild punch at one of the cops before all hell jumped off and someone ended up dead.

What I have a problem with is the use of excessive force against the deceased. Some people have been saying that he was a big man on drugs, but how about Johnny Gammage in Pittsburgh. Was he a big man on drugs when cops beat him to death with their flashlights, all in self-defense of course.

For many of us, what happened Sunday night is more of the same old same old. The 'fact' that he had been arrested before and was allegedly on drugs the night of the deadly confrontation are nothing more than talking points for police apologists and other sympathizers to repeat as they attempt to justify the use of excessive force, which in my opinion was totally uncalled for given the threat level of the deceased.

Police stops and the deaths of Black men aren't anything new in this country; this is one reason why the question of excessive force is raised almost immediately when these deadly encounters occur. The 'scoop' will be when 18 white males are either hammered into the concrete or shot in the backs as they 'resisted arrest' in Anytowns USA over a two-year period by Black or white cops.

I find it interesting and revealing how so many people to this day express sympathy and anger at the way such upstanding citizens such as Randy Weaver and David Koresh were mistreated in their publicized violent confrontations with law enforcement officials, but darkened the hue of the 'perpetrator' and all of a sudden these same individuals are overcome with a compelling need to support the law no matter what. Some things are just so obscenely transparent.

However, I do want to tip my hat to Walt Starr for reconsidering his previous stance given that there might be more to the incident than previously known. Let's wait and see what (if anything) the missing 96 seconds reveal.

I still remain opposed to the use of excessive force by the police, regardless of the gender or ethnicity of the hapless person it's being used on.

[Booberdawg]

64. I too am troubled by that 90 seconds of missing footage

That certainly casts a different flavor on the incident - and causes me to become suspicious when someone has something to hide ...

Interesting ... I just a few minutes ago watched a piece on MSNBC about this that showed a few minutes more of the clip than was played yesterday... showing after he was subdued and on to the moment they realized he was not breathing and until the paramedics arrived. I'm sure this is not the missing 90 seconds being referred to though.

Approximately 2 minutes passed from the time they noticed he was not breathing but did have a pulse, and when the paramedics returned. During that time they took no steps to resuscitate him. I think that's going to be a problem for the police.

[1songbird]

66. The missing 96 seconds occurs prior to Nathanial making the first

swing. It appears that the cameras were turned off and then on again. I've spoken on a local radio station to a retired police chief about the missing footage and the camera operation. He confirmed that the cameras are activated when the lights and sirens are turned on. The cameras remain on until someone turns them off or they malfunction.

[Booberdawg]

69. So let me get this straight

You make it sound more like it is 96 seconds of the incident that is missing, not so much that there is 96 seconds of film footage that was "erased" or "withheld" for some reason. Is that correct? Because that's the impression I had and what made me suspicious.

[Walt Starr]

73. The 96 seconds just plain ain't on the tape

Nobody has explained why satisfactorily. There was a claim that the recorder shut off automatically, however, that claim has been refuted. Procedure apparently does not allow for that to happen.

These missing 96 seconds are incredibly troubling.

[jarab]

70. Good 180, Walt Starr,and good explanation

I made my vote based on a personal bias; that being,. I never give cops the benefit of the doubt. There's too much history to support that bias of mine.
They may actually walk away cleanly from this event. The missing 90 secs are damning indeed - simply by reason of their absence from the media propaganda delivered to us.
...O...