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was the civil war exported from Europe?

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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 07:45 PM
Original message
was the civil war exported from Europe?
Considering this link: http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nrandom/nrand48ers.htm...

It suggests that over 1 million germans were in america for the civil war which would have been 1 out of 20 people... and that the failed revolution there was supported in america to create a marxist uber-federal body of states to offer the socialist utopia. All this on the back of napoleon's mess in europe.

The question remains that the civil war did not eliminate slavery, nor racism, yet killing 2% of the nation's population... was a crime... and lincoln no hero. Marx was wrong to egg on the union and the result was not the socialist utopia, but a dangerious federal that threatens the entire world today with its imperial ambitions.

The federal created by a similar, latter revolution in Germany created the basis that became the third reich, so clearly a failed problem on both sides of the atlantic. It is new revisionism for me to consider that the american civil war was more due to the arguments of the mid 1800's on federalism in Global history, and that telling civil war history as purely an issue of americans fighting over slavery is grossly simplistic.

What are your thoughts?
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hello from Germany,
sorry, but this is just completely nonsense. Your source is not just a nazi-page, that is denying the holocaust, the whole article is just unwillingly comical, at least when it comes to german history. There never was a communist revolution in Germany 1848. If this is fashist propaganda, it's poorely made. They should have spent more time, studying Goebbels.
Although, being offered that WE were behind the civil war, sounds somehow seducing to me :-)

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. thanks
I read the link on another site, and found the essay intriging... and only after posting did i notice the core editorial of the site.

That suggests that the gas chambers never existed, and that no evidence exists that they did. I realize i look like a nazi sympathizer to publish that link, and i read the historical views of the authors.... who suggest that evidence is sorely missing regarding gas chambers and that the many dead in those camps died of typhus as food supplies and crowded conditions were the primary cause.

Honestly, i don't know one way or the other. I've been bombarded with american propaganda about the "death camps" since a young age, and find even now that allowing myself to question it means i'm an evil person and all sorts of stuff... the signs of deep propaganda, that i sooo identify with one view when i actually have seen no evidence.

On reading the paper, i myself wonder if there were really gas chambers... and think it like the american story of saddam and the baby incubators... sensationalist propaganda to polarize a public in to hating germany. I don't agree with a conclusion that says that because there were no gas chambers, that there was no holocaust... I don't understand how they make that leap.

In any case, i find the fact that marx was egging on the union cause to be interesting, if the authors of the essay are not writing pure science fiction. Geez on the web these days, without being a Ph.D in history, how can one know truth?...

i agree with the authors that truth is best known through evidence, and as i walked through the dachau camp myself and saw the footings of the buildings and saw the pictures, it looked like a lotta people died there. If i saw the remains of huntsville prison after a long war, likely i would believe similarly that ameirica had black death camps... with gas chambers and ovens.

IF the gas chambers are a myth, and the propaganda has overdone it to reinforce hatred in america, the social brainwashing is too deep to reverse, even if it is a lie. I always wondered why the german people suddenly became so evil, and i think much of the spin is really propaganda... and as america has a long track record of institutional lies that continues today... who knows.

The hobbits in the shire are real, i know it cuz i read it and saw it on TV.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Pure Bullsh*t. n/t
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Holocaust Denial page?
:puke:
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DivinBreuvage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. The only thing "grossly simplistic" is this theory,
and as usual with cranks, he uses splinters of truth to build a forest of lies.

Here are his splinters of truth: large numbers of Germans had in fact emigrated to America before the Civil War, mainly to the North, and a great many native-born Germans fought in the Union Army (the Army of the Potomac's XI Corps, for instance, which was wrecked by Stonewall Jackson at Chancellorsville, was heavily comprised of German immigrants). But by this reasoning the author would have had a stronger case if he had blamed Irish Catholics for the Civil War. In fact this very logic would have enabled him to blame the real culprits, native-born protestant Americans, who did in fact hold the clear preponderance of military, political, and financial power throughout the United States, both North and South.

It is also true that influential German-Americans such as Franz Sigel and Karl Schurz were rewarded with political and military positions in exchange for their support, but again, this was just business as usual in the 1860s. To this day high political positions in the United States are often filled more on the basis of payment for services rendered than of merit; and in the huge volunteer armies of the Civil War era, high rank was freely dispensed to men who had wielded economic or political power in peacetime in exchange for their continued support of the administration in time of war, regardless of whether the man in question had any capability for commanding troops or not. But again, native-born American protestants got the lion's share of these prize plums.

It is also true that Marx supported the North -- as did the textile workers of Great Britain and the Tsar of Russia, and their support weighed far more importantly in Lincoln's mind than that of Marx, whom Lincoln had probably never even heard of. The statement that "Marx egged on the Union" to do anything whatsoever is complete nonsense. I defy anyone to present even one proof of how Karl Marx influenced policy in the Lincoln administration. You can't, because it's a crock. Karl Marx could have screamed his head off. He was a non-entity here, and Civil War America wasn't listening. The "communist communities" the author mentions were based on the ideas of Charles Fourier, not Karl Marx, and they certainly had none of the sinister tones associated with 20th-century Bolshevism/Stalinism/Maoism, etc.

And, yes, some of the Germans probably did intend to use the experience they were gaining on American battlefields to strike a future blow for their homeland. Some of the Irish certainly did.

But to state that the influence of Franz Sigel, Karl Schurz, and a million German immigrants would hold more sway than the majority of the native population of the United States over the mind of such a canny and expert politician as Abraham Lincoln, is complete and total crap. The author appears not to know that native-born Americans in the North volunteered in such huge numbers after the firing on Fort Sumter that they had to be turned away in droves because the government just didn't think it would ever have a need for that many men. Nor does he explain how the German Communists manipulated the South into secession and firing on Federal property. Nor does he explain how the German Revolution of 1848 or Karl Marx had anything whatsoever to do with the American secession crisis which dated back to 1833, nor with the slavery crisis that had been an issue of contention since at least the end of the American Revolution.

Your statement that "the civil war did not eliminate slavery, nor racism" is technically true, but it fails to recognize that major strides, for the time, did in fact occur in the years before and during the war. The existence and influence of men like John Brown and Thaddeus Stevens is proof of that.

Finally, while it is understandably difficult for white Southerners who are genuinely proud of their heritage (a pride which I can understand and respect, though I myself despise and abhor the Confederacy and everything it stood for), and for some Northerners who like to bitch about how the US government has been a nefarious evil empire since the day the first Englishman stepped off the boat, to come to grips with the fact that the Civil War was in fact fought primarily over slavery, that remains the primary reason why it was fought. Not the only reason; but slavery, like abortion or gun control in our own day, was the "hot button" emotional-moral issue that got everyone stirred up. Slavery, not business protectionism or tariffs, was what made folks crazy mad enough to pick up a gun and go shoot the other guy. Slavery and nothing else was the issue that tore Kansas apart in the 1850s. White Southerners lived in perpetual terror of a slave revolt, and the reason John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry freaked them out so bad was that it wasn't just a question now of a few pig-headed blacks going haywire, but of white men with brains and intellect leading the operation, backed by Northern money and political power. White Southerners at the time, even the majority who didn't own slaves, openly admitted that the whole issue, for them (As James B. McPherson shows in his book For Cause and Comrades), boiled down to making sure that even the trashiest white could consider himself better than a black man and, more crucially, to ensuring that black men wouldn't be sleeping with white women.

Those of you who doubt the visceral rage which the thought of black male/white female sex can provoke in some minds to this day, have obviously never been a white woman or a black man married to a person of the opposite race.

Francoise
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanx a lot for your post...
I could only reply, based on my knowledge about german history, but I didn't know any of the facts, you've mentioned in your post, about the civil war. I did know, that Marx was supporting the democratic revolution 1848, like any other democratic revolution and that he surely supported the civil war against slavery.
But I did never hear about germans, fighting in the civil war. I'm not a patriot in any way, but this could make me proud of being a german for about half a second :-)
As you seem to know a lot about U.S. history: is there any book, you could recommend to me? I know a lot about the 20th century, but I would like to know more about what happened before.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk
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DivinBreuvage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hi Dirk,
Thank you for your post. I'm glad you were here to point out some of the author's errors with regard to German history. I was vaguely aware that there was a democratic revolution in central Europe in 1848, and that it was defeated, but that's unfortunately all I know about it. It seems from your earlier post that the author makes some of the same mistakes about German history that he does about American history, i.e. affixing the label "communist" to movements and events where it doesn't really apply in an attempt to strengthen his argument.

I would be happy to refer you to several good books on the American Civil War:

If you'd like a lengthy book that touches on all aspects (military, political, social, etc.) of the Civil War I would recommend "Battle Cry of Freedom" by James M. McPherson. If you prefer something shorter, McPherson has also published a collection of short essays, "Drawn With The Sword", that does an excellent job of touching on all the key points. McPherson is a professor of American History at Princeton University; the books I've mentioned are written for the public, not scholars, and his style is vivid and eloquent.

Another excellent writer is Bruce Catton, a popular historian who wrote in the 1950s and 60s, I believe. His "Army of the Potomac" trilogy (Mr. Lincoln's Army, Glory Road, and A Stillness at Appomattox) is a beautiful and poetic account of the war from the point of view of the common soldier of the Army of the Potomac. As a young boy Catton knew a few ancient Civil War veterans in his home town and they made a lifelong impression on him.

It is true that thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of German immigrants fought for the Union cause in the Civil War. One of my books has an excerpt from a letter from a young German who was writing to his parents in Germany, telling them why it was so important to him to join the army and fight in the war. I wanted to share that with you but I haven't been able to find it yet; I'll e-mail it to you if I come across it.

And, why not be proud of being German? I would be, if I were a German. I've always loved Germany.

Take care,
Francoise
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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good pick on Catton
The trilogy is very good.

:thumbsup:

Hoping to get around to reading McPherson's book too.

:hi:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. I am locking this thread.
The link provided is a Holocaust revisionist site. Linking to these sites is not permitted at DU.


NYer99
DU Moderator
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