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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:10 PM
Original message
Why is it OK to trash women on this board?
I realize at first blush this belongs in the Ask the Administrator part of this forum but I am after a broader issue here. While the moderators are responsible for permitting the stuff to remain they aren't responsible for writing the stuff in the first place.

I think we would be more likely to see tomatoes planted on Pluto than we would see threads as derogatory toward the alleged victim of a racially based hate crime as we have seen toward the alleged victim on the Bryant case. This is hardly new either. Threads about Ann Coulter routinely degenerate into hate filled diatribes that should scare any correct thinking person. Again, I think that there is no way a person would dream of posting things like "Clarence Thomas is a n word, Paul Wolfowitz is an h word, Antonin Scalia is a d word, Andrew Sullivan is a f word, or Linda Chavez is a s word." But Ann Coulter is a b word is fair game. Why is this?

I am one of several posters who avoid the lounge due to the misogynist threads which abound. Several female posters are at their wits end with this garbage. Regardless of what the moderators chose or don't choose to do we can choose to not be so vilely bigotted in our conduct. We can chose to call Ann Coulter the walking pollution to our public discourse which she proves herself to be almost daily without insulting a large portion of our posters. If we must discuss Kobe we can do so without publicly painting this woman as a gold digging slut or a pathetic nut. Arguably this is a job for the moderators but even if it isn't it is a job for us as well.

We owe our fellow posters that respect.
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whoYaCallinAlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Extremely well done dsc.
I'm a woman and I'm offended by slut, whore, and cunt. Bitch doesn't bother me because I call Bush a bastard. It's the equivalent of bitch to me.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Well, it's well known that many terms of derision are
against women even if they purport to relate to men.

For example, "bastard" means his mother was unwed.

Also, "son of a bitch" again refers to the mother.

"pu--y whipped" refers to a women controlling him.
Don't know why, just an observation.
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. How can you defend Ann the Man Coulter???
She's as bad as buttboils limbaugh and deserves all she gets. Methinks you're another of these dems that won't fight. You want us to talk about issues instead of slinging mud at the RW loonies. Screw that.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I think Coulter is the single most hate-filled person I have ever heard.
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 01:21 PM by ieoeja
But I find the "Ann the Man" comments, judging her by her failure to meet your standards of beauty, offensive. And I'm a guy who regularly uses the "B" word!
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Well i'm sorry i ruined your day
I think dems should pound away at the idea that coulter was formerly a man. She sure looks like one, with that square-jawed face and prominent adams apple. This is politics, honey. If you're not willing to fight i suggest you go join a monastery.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. "the idea that xx was formerly a man"
First replace "Ann Coulter" with "Janet Reno".

Then, ponder the manifest sexuality of men obsessed with Janet Reno's gonads.

Hope this helps.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM
Original message
What part of polluter of the public
discourse was unclear?
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Not defending, ignoring
Do you not realize that every Ann Coulter thread on DU is her fondest wish come true? That the anger she sees here is exactly what she WANTS? That every Ann Coulter thread here just enchances her standing in the right wing community?

DUers MAKE Ann Coulter successful with every single thread about her. She is accomplishing her task.

People like Ann Coulter deserved to be ignored, not defiled. Every angry retort she reads on DU makes her estatic.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks DSC, I appreciate this post and will let your words speak for me
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. same way men are called..
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM by nini
..bastards, pricks, etc...


people tend to pull insults geared to the sex of the person when they want to slam them.

some people aren't bothered by it and some are..

on edit: I am in no way condoning this.. just how I see it with people
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Hmm, the term "bastard" actually refers to the mother's marital status

Hmm, the term "bastard" actually refers to the mother's marital status.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Regardless
it is an insult directed at the man.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. maybe you could back up your claims

with a few references/examples of this behavior.
I don't really see it.
Bashing Ann is one things but I haven't seen any
of the stuff your talking about.
But then again I avoid all non-issues like the Kobe thing.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I can't back the Coulter stuff up
since it is in DU1. The Kobe stuff is still available. Look at the first few pages of the general discussion forum and find the thread CNN says woman in Kobe case . . .
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well said
Let's hope it helps
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. Being a woman, I do not see much
here I consider "woman bashing". Ann Coulter is hated by many here, not because she is a woman, but because she is a hate monger. As for the Kobe Bryant thing, I am so sick of the media and legal pundits trying cases on TV, that I could scream. Until the trial is over with Kobe - he is an ALLEGED rapist and she is an ALLEGED victim. I don't care for the nuts and sluts smears, but what if that is true. People are merely talking about what is in the news.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree with you.
Although in the case of Ann Coulter she does need criticism as an individual for her dangerous rhetoric, but not as a woman.
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you, dsc
Excellent thread. Perhaps it would help to enforce the DU rule - debate the subject, not the person with every subject.

These <insert name of right wing woman> threads make her successful in her assigned task of attacking the messenger and ignoring the issues.
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Not a robought Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. I will not stop calling bush
an asshole, *, chimp, the emperor and pResident even though those terms can be considered vile. I will not censor such language because it may offend some who feel it is never appropriate to criticize the that person in office or even if they feel the language immature or insulting.

I'm sorry if you think calling Ann Coulter a bitch is vile, but its colloquial and she is vile; I wouldn't go out of my way to be diplomatic otherwise. But bigotted it's not. I don't view bitch a sexist term, but a description of someone's conduct and have used it to describe some behaviour I have seen in men as well. With AC, bitch fits.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. because it's okay to trash women in society
in general--why should DU be any different?

And I'm saying this as a woman who has nearly sent her fist through the computer screen after reading not one, not two, but DOZENS UPON DOZENS of hateful, mysogonistic remarks regarding the alleged victim in the kobe bryant case---I find the arguments sickening---because these same arguments (She's lying, she's after money, she's lying, she's a slut, she's lying, she's crazy, she's lying, she asked for it, ad nauseum) have been used, are still being used, and most likely will continue to be used against victims of violent crimes.

When I was about 12 I was molested by my mother's live in boyfriend. The first time happened when I was in the tub taking a bath. He walked in, and well----anyways----when I eventually told my mother and the police about what happened, the FIRST words---FIRST words out of the officer's mouth was "Why weren't you wearing any clothes to begin with?" I told him "because I was taking a bath". He says "oh, well did you have to take a bath RIGHT THEN, when you knew he was in the house?" :angry: Yes---I SPECIFICALLY got naked so that this monster could come in and do unmentionable things to me that have scarred me for my entire life. I was asking for it :angry: :angry:

Unless you have sat on the other side of an interrogation table having police question EVERYTHING about you, you have NO idea how hurtful---beyond hurtful, the words are that I read on DU regarding this girl.

It should be said that I was about 16 when I finally came forward with the molestation charges. I had documented everything that happeneed in my diary at the times that it happened (Over 4 years of abuse at that point), but never had the nerve to say "I was raped. I was molested" (saying those things out loud for the first time is very very difficult).

These are qeustions the police asked me:

Q: HOw many times had I had sex
A: None

Q: But I thought he "molested you" (says that in sarcastic voice)
A: He did. but he raped me, he didn't have sex with me

Q: You don't think sex is rape?
A: No, it wasn't consentual

Q: Are you SURE it wasn't consentual
A: I think the broken arm I got is proof that it wasn't consentual

Q: Well you weren't just playing hard to get?
A: No. I was playing "Trying to get away for the safety of my life"

Q: How many times have you masturbated? Have you ever done it in front of him, you know, to turn him on? Just to tease him
A: you've got to be kidding me

Q: (holding up a pair of my underwear---bikini undies) So you're telling me that you feel it's perfectly acceptable for you to prance around the house in panties and a bra in front of a 30-something year old man? That's not being coquetish in your opinion? That's not being flirtatious?
A: the only time he saw my underwear was when he ripped my pants off of me and exposed them
----

Have those questions asked of you by police. See how you feel.

A really great thing that his defense attorney did was to go to my school and get a group of kids that were around my age, and ask them if I'd ever said anything about being "raped"---this wasn't a group of my friends, and most of them were people I'd never even HEARD of, much less would tell delicate information to. But they planted the seed, and wouldn't ya know it, but the next day at school, everyone knew I was raped and molested for many years of my life. Some even MADE UP STORIES about how I had fucked them (which was impossible seeing as I was a 'consentual virgin" until well into my 20's), how I had laughed about it, how me and some other girls and my molester had 3-somes and I was all into it.

But these points do nothing to the people that claim that any woman who has been victimized SOME HOW ASKED FOR IT. Especially if the accused is rich and or famous.

These threads make me sad for my fellow DU'ers--to have such hate built up inside of them and their only outlet is to bash women in the most vile ways.

I have much sympathy for the women in the lives of our mysoginistic DU'ers---
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. You hit the nail on the head..."especially if the accused
is rich and or famous." I'm utterly amazed at how seemingly intelligent men sit there on TV and say but he was the clean cut guy...he's no Dennis Rodman. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Do men really believe all rapists look and act a certain way? And I believe the denial is most by those who are swooning basketball fans....not MY hero!

Sorry about your horrible suffering Heddi...hope you are much better today.

:hi:

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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. I think that some people
(not necessarily men) feel that if someone is on TV, or in Movies, or is otherwise a 'known name' then they are AUTOMATICALLY a paragon of virtue, a beacon of morality and honesty that no mortal could ever hope to become.

Through some odd coincidence, I've known quite a few people who have been rapists and/or child molestors.

THey weren't haggard monsters with teeth missing (well, one was). They held down jobs, had normal lives. Lived in the 'burbs and looked perfectly 'normal'. They didn't lurk in shadowy spaces and smell of vinegar and death. They had friends who were unaware of their activities and in one case, had a wife and 2 children.

There is no 'type' for this, just like there is no 'type' for any other kind of crime.

Someone below said it best---we, as americans, can't stand that our athletes and movie stars, who we assumed had feet of gold really are human and have feet of clay--we can't accept that.

If someone has a shoe-contract, then BY GOD THEY'RE AN UPSTANDING MEMBER OF SOCIETY. If someone has a TV show, then BY GOD THEY'RE ONLY BEING ACCUSED BECAUSE OF THEIR FAME AND FORTUNE!!!

-In another Kobe thread, someone else made the astute comment that CNN is suddenly a reputable source of information when it comes to Kobe, but is a media whore when it has to deal with politics. They're lying about GW, but BY GOD THEY'VE GOT THE TRUTH WHEN IT COMES TO KOBE!!!!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. I don't agree with your assumption!
I use off color language now and then, but I don't do it to abuse the ladies on this board. Mostly venting anger. Which isn't cool.

I can understand both sides to the Bryant case and try to stay away from knowing anymore than I already know. "Tis a media delight, because of the selling of news. Who indeed cares?

Of course I don't hang around the lounge, so I don't know.

But then again perhaps you have a point!
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. it's called equal treatment
In regards to AC and those of her ilk, women should not be spared from having the fire turned up on them if men aren't, especially if they choose the public arena to express their views.

As far as Bryant's accuser is concerned, there are clearly enough mysogynists out there who are offended at her having the temerity to smash their idol of Bryant that they feel justified in holding the position that "you're the monkey who climbed the pole, quit bitching at having things thrown at you..."

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying there's no sense in being surprised at people's reaction to having their idol smashed... they dont' appreciate being shown that who they admire has clay feet and isn't worthy of the adulation, no matter how much $$ that person generates for a company/organization.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. And these are probably the same people
who ridiculted women for standing up for Martha Stewart. They laughed and said hey, if she's guilty who cares how much of a liberal donor she is? Funny how it's different when it's a sweet, family-man, clean-cut good boy....yeah, right that's why he was screwing a teenager while his wife is at home with their 6 month old baby!

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. "correct thinking"
Now see, that scares the daylights out of me. There is no such thing as a 100% "correct thinking" person. It's simply not possible. I am offended by the attacks around here on the Bush twins actually, they didn't ask to be stuck in the limelight. As far as this rape goes, based on the behavior of the girl, I can see where people would come up with negative conclusions. Maybe they're right, in which case they'd technically be a "correct thinking" person. I choose to wait until a trial and there's actually evidence to base an opinion and I do wish more people would do the same. But that's not human nature, so I guess I'll just have to ignore the threads which is pretty much what I've done so far.

And BTW, I'm a woman.



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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Try reading my post again
I used the term correct thinking in regards to Coulter threads not Kobe threads. Because the Coulter thread in question is so vile I won't even quote it here. But anyone who saw it and didn't think it vile I would have a problem with.
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. A lot of responders here seemed to miss the point of the post
The point wasnt whether or not Ann Coulter actually is a bitch or not or the most vile person on the planet or not. The point of the original poster was that some are personally offended by the mere use of the term bitch because it might denigrate ALL women.

Now that part, I dont agree with. When you call someone a bitch, it concerns the characteristics of that person and the fact that they happen to be female. The same person with a penis might be called a dickI dont take this as an insult to all men.just the person who was called the name.

This is different than racial terms because those are MEANT to characterize an entire group of people. Bitch, cunt, slut, etc. are NOT meant to characterize an entire groupjust the person who is called the name. Whats wrong with that?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. that is absurd
Crack open a history book or better yet go up to an older racist and just see him differentiate between good blacks and n words.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. Bashing females and underclass whites reeks of entitlement
And when one mentions this as you have done, some DUers will say "give me links" to support your claims(denial). I have seen what you discribe. My own pet peeve is the "Burger King working, trailer trash Freeper" posts. They say much more about the middle-class entitlement of the poster than they say about Freepers.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. This whole thread reminds me of Naomi Klein's "No Logo..."
Again, we're being distracted from our real goals by semantics and infighting. Do you REALLY think anyone on this board is for repealing suffrage? Or in favor of rape? Or hate crimes? Come on. Look at the substance of our actions, not at our superficial traits.

The Kobe Bryant case is a distraction, Laci Peterson is a distraction, this whole issue is a distraction. You pose a deliberately loaded question to people who for the most part share your views, causing squabbles and pulling our energy away from the real enemy toward fighting those who are actually on your side. This is a non-issue.

This whole thread is an example of why liberals find it so hard to connect with "the sheeple;" it makes us look like prissy, prudish politically correct elitists when we condemn language use.

Naomi Klein writes about this very eloquently in "No Logo." She writes that while the liberals of the early nineties were fighting over "representation" and "defamation," multi-national corporations slipped in thru the back door and took control of our country... All because we were not vigilant enough. Instead, we were raising hell about the lesbian character in "Basic Instinct ," etc. At this point in history, ALL our energy out to go towards fighting the BFEE and the right wing ignorance pervading the country. Are your DU friends the threat or is it the squatters in the White House?

I seriously doubt that anyone on this board is for the oppression of women.
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pmbryant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. Locking
Since this question concerns DU policy, this is more appropriately asked in the 'Ask the Administrators' forum.

Thanks,

pmbryant
DU Moderator
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
31. <but I am after a broader issue >
pretty good!
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. Simply, it's not OK.
Similarly, I have always argued that Ann Coulter's political positions are objectionable enough and weak enough to be blasted on their merits, and not on the basis of her (perceived) sexuality.

All it takes is a commitment to civil discourse.
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