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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:22 PM
Original message
Bush and 9-11: Compelling Evidence for Complicity
The author presents a cogent case pinning blame of 9-11 on where it belongs: The BFEE. A must-read if we want to beat Bushler in 2004. Octafish

September 11th and the Bush Administration:
Compelling Evidence for Complicity


by Walter E. Davis, PhD, Kent State University

October 29th 2003

This article will appear in Bernd Hamm (Ed) (2003).
Bushgang America. London: Zed Books.

Acknowledgements: I would like to thank Bernd Hamm, Ed Rippy, Paul Wolf, Karen Capel, J. Walter Plinge, and Timothy Chandler for their helpful comments.


Abstract

Why 9/11 was not prevented is one of the most critical questions in current times, because answers may well reveal to more people than ever before, the true nature of the U.S. corporate global empire the most extensive and most destructive in human history. Newspapers across the U.S. called for an investigation into Bush's lies about the reason for war on Iraq. While it is relatively easy for the American people to accept deception for the killing of the Arab people in distant lands, few people will be as accepting if it is shown that this Administration was complicit in acts of atrocities against its own people.

The evidence I present in this article suggests that the most plausible explanation of the events surrounding September 11, 2001, is that the Bush Administration was complicit in the terrorist attacks and has orchestrated its cover-up. The sources cited contain extensive detailed information, additional sources, and analysis beyond what is possible to provide in this summary. I hope that this information will incite public outrage leading to full accountability.

CONTINUED...

http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?stor...
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theivoryqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. complicity or collusion
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. MIHOP v LIHOP
Made It Happen On Purpose versus Let It Happen On Purpose two of the great 9-11 questions. Personally, I can't see Bush being smart enough to keep his stupid wug shut knowing about this stuff. OTOH, something was weird when he listened to the story about the pet goat with the school kids in Florida.



"Mr. President, America is under attack."

So what's he do? Does he scramble NORAD? Does he warn the nation's airlines? Does he warn Washington? No. Bush sits for another half hour listening to the story about the goat. Must have been some fascinating story. Bet he didn't think someone, like the professor, would write this story:

EXCERPT...

There are numerous other reasons to dismiss as a lie the claim that the 9/11 plane hijackings and attacks caught the U.S. government agencies by surprised a rather ominous admission in the first place. For example, an expert panel commissioned by the Pentagon in 1993 discussed how an airplane could be used as a bomb. Notably, U.S. security officials had considered and prepared for possible attacks by suicide planes during the Atlanta Summer Olympics in 1996. There were three incidents that took place in 1994, including the stolen single-engine Cessna, which crashed into a tree on the White House grounds just short of the president's bedroom, and an aborted plan to crash a plane into the Eiffel Tower. As early as 1997, Russia, France, Israel, the Philippines and Egypt all warned the U.S. of the possibility of the attacks. Warning came from several others sources as well. Recently (May 25, 2002), CBS revealed that President Bush had been warned in an intelligence briefing on August 6, 2001, that Bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial planes for a domestic attack in the U.S.

Second, selected persons were told not to fly that day. Newsweek (September 24, 2001) reported that on September 10th, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns (p. 26). Yet this same information was not made available to the 266 people who died aboard the four hijacked commercial aircraft. A significant number of other selected people were also warned about flying or reporting for work at the WTC. These people include San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown, who received a phone call eight hours before the hijacking warning him not to travel by air. Salman Rushdie is under a 24-hour protection of U.K. Scotland Yard; he was also prevented from flying that day. Ariel Sharon canceled his address to Israeli support groups in New York City just the day before his scheduled September 11th address. John Ashcroft stopped flying on public airplanes in July of 2001. These revelations are more indisputable evidence that people knew about the impending attacks.

Third, revelations of profits made by insider trading relating to the 9/11 attacks point to the top levels of U.S. business and the CIA. (4)

CONTINUED...

http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?stor...
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. I am convinced that it was allowed to happen-LIHOP
the behavior of NORAD, and the USAF must be accounted for alone.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. Second, selected persons were told not to fly that day.
If that is accurate , that is damning. By whose orders? Why?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. John Ashcroft, for starters.
ASHCROFT FLYING HIGH

WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001 (CBS) Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

CONTINUED...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main...

There are reports that Willie Brown was warned by his good friend, Condoleeza Rice, not to fly as well. Some say: "Why would she warn a guy in San Francisco to be careful?" I dunno, but she did admit thinking about "hijackings in the traditional sense" anyway and she didn't warn anybody else in public. One would think that would be part of her job description.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Here's a link to Condescenda's warning Willie Brown...
Lots o' links there for details, but here's the nice catch-all phrase (emphasis in original):

Condoleeza Rice Warned Willie Brown Not To Fly On 9-11

by Brasscheck Monday August 11, 2003 at 02:42 PM

EXCERPT...

Trivia question: What mayor of a major west coast city claimed just hours after 9-11 that he'd been warned not to fly the week of 9-11 by what he described as his 'airport security.' None other than Willie Brown!

SNIP...

On May 17, 2002, Pacifica Radio reported that Rice was the source of the call to Brown.

See side bar: http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/05/Bush_knew2.html

So in case you missed it:

THE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS CONDOLEEZZA RICE CALLED A FRIEND THE DAY BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11TH AND TOLD HIM TO STAY OUT OF THE AIR THAT WEEK

CONTINUED...

http://www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/1634286.php

Wow. This guy Brasscheck sounds familiar. Hope he or she is nicer than that turd Ashcan.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #38
55. Good God! I didn't know it was Rice.
How stupid I feel for not figuring it out. (But then, who knew she was friends with him? OTOH, why wouldn't they be friends?)

Eloriel
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. well, one is dem and one is pug
who would think? willie is very, very slick.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
61. Excellent find!!
I wonder what she said to Willie that day????

Wonder if anybody would want to interview him.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. I wonder WHY WE HAVE NOT HEARD FROM WILLIE BROWN
about this? Why has he not spoken out? What the hell is the matter with him?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. 9-11 Commish should ask him. Here's the original story from 9-12...
Willie Brown got low-key early warning about air travel

By Phillip Matier and Andrew Ross
Archived: San Francisco Chronicle, Wednesday, September 12, 2001

For Mayor Willie Brown, the first signs that something was amiss came late Monday when he got a call from what he described as his airport security - - a full eight hours before yesterday's string of terrorist attacks -- advising him that Americans should be cautious about their air travel.

The mayor, who was booked to fly to New York yesterday morning from San Francisco International Airport, said the call "didn't come in any alarming fashion, which is why I'm hesitant to make an alarming statement."

SNIP...

"It was not an abnormal call. I'm always concerned if my flight is going to be on time, and they always alert me when I ought to be careful."

Exactly where the call came from is a bit of a mystery. The mayor would say only that it came from "my security people at the airport."

CONTINUED...

http://propagandamatrix.com/willie_brown_got_low_key_ea...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
64. brian lamb on c-span last week...
brought this up in the context of all those wacky internet conspiracy theories surrounding Sept.11.... :grr:
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
56. Unless his "staffers" never let him know the details.
LOL!!!
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. good summary
of all the inconsistencies.

If it was a conspiracy, an awful lot of people were in on it. Somehow the truth will eventually come out.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The 9-11 story stunk from Day 1.
Besides the FBI agents in Chicago who saw their terror-funding operation shut down by the Bush White House, FBI agents in Arizona, Florida, and Minnesota were worrying about terrorists hijacking planes and flying them into buildings some actually mentioning the WTC by name. The guy at FBI headquarters who got the warnings did his duty and ignored them. For his dereliction of duty, he got a promotion.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Agent Maltbie may be heading onto bigger things in the BFEE.
And to think I usually disagree with the editorial slant of both the Moonie Times and World Net Daily. Oh well All's fair in love and treason...

Senator wants FBI to explain bonus for official in 9/11 case

Washington Times 01/13/03: Jerry Seper

FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III has been asked by a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee to justify an award he gave to an FBI official who refused requests by Minneapolis agents for a warrant to search the computer of terror suspect Zacarias Moussaoui.

Sen. Charles E. Grassley, Iowa Republican, described as "shocking" Mr. Mueller's decision to give the Presidential Rank of Meritorious Service award to Marion "Spike" Bowman, head of the FBI's national security law unit.

"By granting this award and a monetary bonus, you are sending the wrong signal to those agents who fought sometimes against senior FBI bureaucrats at headquarters to prevent the attacks," Mr. Grassley said in a letter Thursday to Mr. Mueller.

FBI agents in Minneapolis, advised that Moussaoui, 33, a French Moroccan, was seeking flight lessons, had sought a secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant to search his computer, but FBI officials in Washington refused, saying there was insufficient probable cause.

CONTINUED...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_011303_911.html


Has FBI promoted 9-11 ball-dropper?

Supervisor who blocked hijacker probe gets job with more responsibility


By Paul Sperry
2002WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON The FBI supervisor who allegedly hamstrung the pre-Sept. 11 Minneapolis investigation into the alleged 20th hijacker has been transferred to a position where bureau sources say he'll actually have more authority.

Michael Maltbie, the FBI supervisory special agent accused of blocking field agents from obtaining a warrant to search Zacarias Moussaoui's computer, has been moved out of the counterterrorism division at bureau headquarters to the Cleveland office, where he'll work as a field supervisor, sources say.

"That's really a promotion," a bureau veteran told WorldNetDaily, "because a field supervisor is a big notch over a headquarters supervisor."

"He'll actually be directing investigations, rather than twiddling his thumbs half the time," he explained.

CONTINUED...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...



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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. a well constructed and researched article
worth passing on.... thanks
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. You're welcome, G_j!
This guy has a PhD in sports philosophy, meaning he's big and strong which is what we need to fight the BFEE. I'm writing him a big thank-you as soon as I'm calmed down enough to sound sober.

My one beef is that the fellah gives credence to the ideas that the buildings were set to blow up beforehand and the Pentagon was hit by something other than an aircraft. I don't see the evidence for either one. Besides, I have a friend who was in a conference at a nearby hotel that day and he heard a jetliner zoom close by.

Nevertheless, this is an exceptional report, noteworthy for its comprehensive approach to documenting treason of the BFEE re 9-11. Here's an excerpt for those unable to click to the original...

EXCERPT...

Moreover, the USA and bin Laden are not the enemies they pretend to be. Michel Chossudovsky and others have established beyond doubt that senior members of the Bush Administration have close links to the bin Laden family and this relationship is still going on behind the scenes. In fact, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to indicate that bin Laden may have had something to do with 9/11, but the problem is that it also implicates the Bush Administration, the CIA, George Bush Senior, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates.

It is also well known that bin Laden's close working relationship with the CIA began in the 1980's. The claim is that they have since fallen out, but this story is a lie. Indeed, on October 31, the French daily Le Figaro reported that while in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection in July 2001, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official. The bin Laden and Bush families have maintained close business ties through the Carlyle Group. Some of the members of the bin Laden family and the Saudi Royal Family were in the U.S. during the attack and were flown safely out shortly after. George Bush Sr. met with Shafiq bin Laden, one of Osama's brothers, on September 10th in Washington, D.C. at a Carlyle Group business conference. According to the corporate media spin, this is okay, because the rest of the family has disowned Osama for his terrorist activities and anti-U.S. views. This spin is also a lie.

The blowback thesis is a fabrication. The evidence amply confirms that the CIA never severed its ties to the Islamic Militant Network. Since the end of the Cold War these covert intelligence links have not only been maintained, they have become increasingly sophisticated.

If bin Laden was an enemy of the U.S., he could have been captured before 9/11 and should have been captured since. There have been several opportunities to capture Osama bin Laden after naming him wanted for the 1993 bombing of the WTC, but no effort to do so was made. (15) Prior to 9/11, the FBI attributed the attacks on the embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam to Osama bin Laden and offered a $5 million ransom. Sudan offered to assist the Clinton Administration in capturing bin Laden but was ignored. It was also reported that bin Laden was meeting with the CIA as late as July 2001 (while in the American Hospital in Dubai). An examination of U.S. efforts to capture Osama bin Laden show they have in fact, with the help of two allies, Saudi Arabia and The United Arab Emirates, consistently blocked attempts to investigate and capture him. Eleven bin Laden Family members were flown safely out of the same Boston airport where the hijacking took place a few days earlier. Why were the family members of the most wanted man in America not detained for questioning?

CONTINUED...
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EastofEdon Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. kick
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. My opinion
Bush knew something big was going to happen, but did not think it would be as big as the WTC collapsing, the Pentagon getting hit, etc.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. i always wondered
if they were clued in to a 'conventional hijacking' scenerio (remember condi?) which they would triumphantly foil w/o significant loss of life.

and they got double-crossed.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. This is my theory precisely. They intended a traditional hijacking
which could be foiled to big effect. But an insider double-crossed them and made it bigger than it was thought to be. Perhaps the reason Bush looked so stupid in that classroom is that he knew the "traditional hijackings" would take place but he was caught off-guard by the smashing into the WTC. Somehow, they didn't connect in that little brain of his. He was expecting hijacking, not a bombing of the WTC. He may have thought that first plane was just a coincidence. And when the second one hit, it took him at least twenty minutes to realize that something went awry with the plans.

I don't think for a minute that the real person in charge told Bush everything, only the tidbits that he needed to know such as the planned "traditional hijacking."
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ramblin_dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Even just that would be enough to get Bush executed
along with Cheney and the rest of them.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. I doubt those deaths would bother him even a tiny bit.
I'm sure he saw it as the golden opportunity it was for him.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Like criminal father, like criminal son.
Remember Bush Sr. sent Brent Scowcroft over to Peking after the Tienanmen Massacre to "clink" champagne toasts with the commie hosts who killed at least 2,000 pro-democracy protesters.

The Chinese commies, just before the massacre, had hosted another BFEE business partner, then-Soviet bossman Mikhael Gorbachev. They were embarrassed by the pro-democracy demonstrators.

Bush just wanted all the commijes (USSR was still USSR) to know how much he "valued" their friendship, I guess. Just like Junior and the people who died in 9-11.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. An article in USA Today
from aint_no_life_nowhere in thread about Neil.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002/02/19/usat...
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
65. The Family That Preys Together ...
This great article was startling way back when it was published. These gangsters have only grown more brazen in their ruthless venality. And yet, the members of the Bush Organized Crime Family seem really to be just stooges for the really dangerous types in the Secret Government, the people we never elected and yet boss the BFEE around.

The Family That Preys Together

Covert Action Information Bulletin (later: Covert Action Quarterly)
From Issue No. 41, Summer, 1992
by Jack Colhoun

GEORGE JR.'S BCCI CONNECTION

"This is an incredible deal, unbelievable for this small company," energy analyst Charles Strain told Forbes magazine, describing the oil production sharing agreement the Harken Energy Corporation signed in January 1990 with Bahrain.

Under the terms of the deal, Harken was given the exclusive right to explore for gas and oil off the shores of the Gulf island nation. If gas or oil were found in waters near two of the world's largest gas and oil fields, Harken would have exclusive marketing and transportation rights for the energy resources. Truly an "incredible deal" for a company that had never drilled an offshore well.

Strain failed to point out, however, the one fact that puts the Harken deal in focus: George Bush, Jr., the eldest son of George and Barbara Bush of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, is a member of Harken's board of directors, a consultant, and a stockholder in the Texas-based company. In light of this connection, the deal makes more sense. The involvement of Junior-George Walker Bush's childhood nickname-with Harken is a walking conflict of interest. His relationship to President Bush, rather than any business acumen, made him a valuable asset for Harken, the Republican Party benefactors, Middle East oil sheikhs and covert operators who played a part in Harken's Bahrain deal.

In fact, Junior's track record as an oilman is pretty dismal. He began his career in Midland, Texas, in the mid-1970s when he founded Arbusto Energy, Inc. When oil prices dropped in the early 1980s, Arbusto fell upon hard times. Junior was only rescued from business failure when his company was purchased by Spectrum 7 Energy Corporation, a small oil firm owned by William DeWitt and Mercer Reynolds. As part of the September 1984 deal, Bush became Spectrum 7's president and was given a 13.6 percent share in the company's stock. Oil prices stayed low and within two years, Spectrum 7 was in trouble.

CONTINUED WITH DETAILS AS KNOWN IN 1992...

http://mediafilter.org/caq/BushFamilyPreys.html

... WHAT WE KNOW NOW COULD FILL A BOOK.


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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
62. I thought about that, too...
Perhaps he folded when he realized the full extent of their "plan," and Bush's disappearance for three days (from Tuesday morning to Friday) was a result of insiders (the Secret Government) slapping him around until he got a grip on himself.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. Interesting read.
...Still misstates the crash time for UAL93 as 10:10, rather than 10:03. Pet peeve....
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. There are a few points of contention...
...What is the reason for the discrepancies in the time? What are the significances of the seven minutes? I'm sorry, I am not as current as others on the details of that terrible day's timeline.

My beefs concern the author introducing uncertainty by bringing in the hypothetical pre-positioning of explosives in the twin towers and the story that something other than a jetliner hit the Pentagon. My friend was within two miles of the Pentagon that day and he heard a low-flying jet zoom by.

For those who are interested in the timeline, these fellows, including a group of good DUers, have put together:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline /


DUers interested in an introductory overview on the subject:

http://www.hermes-press.com/keys9_11.htm

Keys to 9/1

By Michelle Mairesse

EXCERPT...

The Sleuths

Zacarias Moussaoui, who was arraigned on six counts of conspiracy to commit murder and terrorism, declared in court that the U.S. government chose not to arrest hijacker Hani Hanjour last summer because that would have tipped off the attackers to surveillance by the F.B.I. "They arrested me and not Hanjour who was a few week before me at Pan Am Flight School (and has been reported was a danger) because they knew that I was not with the 19 hijackers and therefore they will not be alerted . . . by my arrest."

Moussaoui's story received corroboration May 24, 2002, when ABC News reported that paid F.B.I. informant Auki Collins claimed he had monitored the Arab and Islamic communities in Phoenix, including Hani Hanjour while he attended flight school in Phoenix. The F.B.I. admitted that Collins had worked for them, but denied he had told them anything about Hanjour.

Moussaoui claimed he had been under observation before 9/11 and that the hijackers' movements had been facilitated by the U.S. government. Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Spencer denied Moussaoui's allegation in court, maintaining that Moussaoui had not been under physical or electronic surveillance, that he knows of no such surveillance by any foreign government, and also that the U.S. government did not facilitate the movement of any of the 19 hijackers or have any of them under surveillance while they were in the United States. Spencer's sweeping denials don't stand up under scrutiny.

Steve Fainaru's and James V. Grimaldi's Washington Post article of September 23, 2001 concludes: "Since 1996, the F.B.I. had been developing evidence that international terrorists were using US flight schools to learn to fly jumbo jets. A foiled plot in Manila to blow up U.S. airliners and later court testimony by an associate of bin Laden had touched off F.B.I. inquiries at several schools, officials say." So it appears that at least the flight schools were under surveillance.

CONTINUED...

http://www.hermes-press.com/keys9_11.htm

Haven't really read too much ground-breaking info on 9-11 from the Washington Post in a while. Wonder why that is?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. The page is not loading. Someone have the article? PM me
if you have the text saved.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Overloaded server. Sorry.
Check the mailbox in a few minootas.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. PM me with this info please.
danke
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. An interesting quote by cicero
"A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gate is less formidable, for he is known and varies the banners openly against the city. But the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not as a traitor; he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears the face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared."
Cicero, 45 BC
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. He rots the soul of a nation.
Sounds like Cicero knew Richard Perle in a past life.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
40. Wish Cicero had met L. Fletcher Prouty.
Colonel X would quickly explain the events of over the past 40 years the installation of America's Secret Government. From what I've lived, the BFEE went into business 22 November 1963. These men represent a global elite the leadership of today's Military-Industrial-Intelligence Complex, NAZIs, Mafiosi, gangsters, KKK, Big Oil, Wall Street crooks, Drugs, Gold and Big Money. What name runs through all these organizations and properties, this OCTOPUS? What name would Cicero despise? That name is Bush.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Cicero would have liked bush...
he worshiped the ruling class and and concerned himself with his writing mainly in the effort of maintaining their power.

The Assassination of Julius Caesar
A People's History of Ancient Rome

more...
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Caesar.html

peace
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. Describes just about everyone in the Press today.
John Swinton, the former chief of staff of THE NEW YORK TIMES, called by his peers, "The Dean of his profession," was asked in 1953 to give a toast before the New York Press Club. He rose and gave this toast:

"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the Journalist is to destroy truth; To lie outright; To pervert; To vilify; To fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals for rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. Democracy for sale The Bin Laden connection
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:40 PM by seemslikeadream
Who owned Barrick Gold Mining - where did it come from? Have you ever heard of Barrick? I'd never heard of Barrick in my life. I looked it up, and who put up the money to create this corporation? A guy named Adnan Khashoggi. Now Adnan Khashoggi was the arms dealer who traded the arms for hostages in the Iran-Contra game. "Poppy" Bush claimed he didn't know about that; he was out of the loop. So this is guy who gave arms to the Ayatollah. It's odd because George Bush is working for the guy who armed the Axis of Evil.

By the way, it's interesting that "Poppy" Bush last act in office before he went on to Khashhoggi's corporation, was to pardon Adnan Khashoggi, who had been charged with a felony - no connections please!

But by the end of 1996 it looks like Khashoggi was getting out of Barrick, and what was he doing? Well, when you try to track arms dealers, the people who deal with them and who know where they are any more are not necessarily Nobel Prize winners, except for Henry Kissinger. But according to some really creepy sources, in May 1996 ther was a meeting in place called Hotel Monceau in Paris between Khashoggi and representatives of a family named Bin Laden. Now don't misunderstand about the Bin Ladens. These are good people: they're business partners of the Bush family throught a corporation called Carlyle and various Saudi royals. And they and a financier from Switzerland, who is handling the money for an organisation called Al Qa'eda, were dividing up which salaries should pay how much, and provide what arms to this organisation.

So there was this meeting and this is what concerned me: if I know about it, then do you think that American and British Intelligence might know about it? The US had spent a trillion bucks on the CIA, and the British Government had spent God knows how much on M16 and M15, while people were meeting in the Hitol Monceau figuring out how much to give Al Qa'eda. So the question was, how did the US and European Intelligence not know about the greatest, the most devastating, brutal, bloody attack on American soil since Pearl Harbour? And what I learned is that the intelligence agencies didn't see it coming because they were told not to look.
http://www.think-twice.org.uk/2002/palast /

George Bush SR. gave Barrick $10 billion in mining rights on US public land citing an 1870's gold mining law just before he left office.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Move along now
You won't want to be paying attention to any of this. It's really not important at all.

Just sit down and shut up. If you want, you can go all nostalgic and reflect quietly what democracy used to be like before BFEE

Experts agree: Everything is just fine. I heard it on Fox News -- so you know it's fair and balanced.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Spiral Hawk -- That's exactly IT! I DO remember ...
... what it was like before the BFEE. I'm from the school that believes the BFEE went public November 22, 1963. The media have been theirs. The Congress has been theirs. The courts became theirs in January 2001.

My poor wife. She worried about what I think about, but only because I think it. If she only knew... she might never know a happy day again until these criminals of this Octopus are apprehended, charged, convicted and sentenced. There may not be enough jail space to hold them all, so we may have to call Halliburton.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Richard "PNAC" Perle asked Khashoggi for $100 million.
The Prince of Darkness hit up Prince Bandar's BCCI connection for a cool $100 million. Gee. The price of a piece of Trireme has gone down, as he had asked Conrad Black for only $2.5 million just the other day. Octafish

Lunch with the Chairman

by Seymour M. Hersh
17 March 2003

At the peak of his deal-making activities, in the nineteen-seventies, the Saudi-born businessman Adnan Khashoggi brokered billions of dollars in arms and aircraft sales for the Saudi royal family, earning hundreds of millions in commissions and fees. Though never convicted of wrongdoing, he was repeatedly involved in disputes with federal prosecutors and with the Securities and Exchange Commission, and in recent years he has been in litigation in Thailand and Los Angeles, among other places, concerning allegations of stock manipulation and fraud. During the Reagan Administration, Khashoggi was one of the middlemen between Oliver North, in the White House, and the mullahs in Iran in what became known as the Iran-Contra scandal. Khashoggi subsequently claimed that he lost ten million dollars that he had put up to obtain embargoed weapons for Iran which were to be bartered (with Presidential approval) for American hostages. The scandals of those times seemed to feed off each other: a congressional investigation revealed that Khashoggi had borrowed much of the money for the weapons from the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (B.C.C.I.), whose collapse, in 1991, defrauded thousands of depositors and led to years of inquiry and litigation.

Khashoggi is still brokering. In January of this year, he arranged a private lunch, in France, to bring together Harb Saleh al-Zuhair, a Saudi industrialist whose family fortune includes extensive holdings in construction, electronics, and engineering companies throughout the Middle East, and Richard N. Perle, the chairman of the Defense Policy Board, who is one of the most outspoken and influential American advocates of war with Iraq.

The Defense Policy Board is a Defense Department advisory group composed primarily of highly respected former government officials, retired military officers, and academics. Its members, who serve without pay, include former national-security advisers, Secretaries of Defense, and heads of the C.I.A. The board meets several times a year at the Pentagon to review and assess the countrys strategic defense policies.

Perle is also a managing partner in a venture-capital company called Trireme Partners L.P., which was registered in November, 2001, in Delaware. Triremes main business, according to a two-page letter that one of its representatives sent to Khashoggi last November, is to invest in companies dealing in technology, goods, and services that are of value to homeland security and defense. The letter argued that the fear of terrorism would increase the demand for such products in Europe and in countries like Saudi Arabia and Singapore.

CONTINUED...

http://www.doublestandards.org/hersch1.html


A bit on the new TRIREME business...


At Hollinger, Big Perks in A Small World

By Steven Pearlstein
Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page E01

It's amazing the coincidences you find digging into Hollinger International, the publishing empire that includes Chicago's Sun-Times and London's Daily Telegraph and is quickly slipping from Conrad Black's control.

Let's start with the board of directors, which includes Barbara Amiel, Conrad's wife, whose right-wing rants have managed to find an outlet in Hollinger publications.

And there's Washington superhawk Richard Perle, who heads Hollinger Digital, the company's venture capital arm. Seems that Hollinger Digital put $2.5 million in a company called Trireme Partners, which aims to cash in on the big military and homeland security buildup. As luck would have it, Trireme's managing partner is none other than . . . Richard Perle.

Perle, of course, has been pushing hard for just such a military buildup from his other perch at the Pentagon's secretive and influential Defense Policy Board, where there are a number of other Friends of Hollinger.

CONTINUED...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59784-20...


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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well at least there is a Walter Davis at Kent State...
His credential is in Physical Education.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The guy's got a Ph.D.
What's yours in, HereSince1628?

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. As a matter of fact my doctorate is in Biology
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 05:46 PM by HereSince1628
My dissertation concerned the resolution of competing theoretical models concerning equilibrium and non-equilibrium dynamics of parasitic disease.

The writing and editing on the article is poor. I thought maybe too poor for a Ph.D. so I went looking for the author's name. Hence my comment. There is a real W.E. Davis.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Sorry. I didn't mean to sound so snotty.
My concern was it sounded like you didn't like the author's conclusions because he's a gym teacher. I respect scholarship. Me? I've got a bachelor's degree in journalism, which is below towel boy in the academic pecking order. Come to think of it, I've been called bottom-feeder by some on DU so it really is appropriate.

So... You're an epidemiologist? ;)
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. WTC-7: The Improbable Collapse --------------------------- FLASH
http://globalfreepress.net/911/wt7/flash_8fps/wtc7.8fps...

by Scott Loughrey

Mysteries abound about World Trade Center 7's (WTC-7) demise on September 11. In the early evening in the Big Apple of that horrific day this 47-story steel building suddenly collapsed. An odd series of failures had occurred.

They began when a small amount of debris falls from the implosion of World Trade Center 1, a block away. Somehow small fires subsequently break out in WTC-7. The fireproofing systems completely fail. The fires burn all day from an unknown fuel. Eventually, the flames reach tanks of diesel fuel at ground level. Suddenly, the penthouse begins to fall. The entire lower levels immediately experience the same massive failures. About seven seconds later the entire building is gone. It takes a minute for 2 million square feet of office space to become a large pile of rubble.

Satellite photos later confirm that the vast majority of WTC-7's rubble rests in what was the buildings footprint. The neatness of the rubble enables clean-up crews to swiftly remove and recycle the steel after just a cursory examination (See Eric Hufschmid at http://www.erichufschmid.net/PainfulQuestions_1.pdf )

more...
http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?stor...

peace
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Isn't it true that diesel
is not explosive? Then the tanks of diesel could not have caused the building to collapse.



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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. Not Really Believable
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 06:11 PM by durutti
Sorry, but this article is full of dubious claims.

First of all, it's worth noting that Davis has his PhD in Physical Education. In other words, he really isn't qualified to say definitively some of the things he says.

Davis writes, "It is well known that Bin Laden's close working relationship with the CIA began in the 1980s. The claim is that they have since fallen out, but this story is a lie." First of all, bin Laden and the CIA never had a "close working relationship". It is true that the CIA used the Pakistani ISI to funnel resources to the mujahedeen in Afghanistan. Among those supporting the mujahedeen was Osama bin Laden. But there's no evidence that the CIA ever met with Osama bin Laden let alone had any kind of "close working relationship" with him.

Davis gives absolutely no evidence to support his assertion that the alleged CIA falling out with the bin Laden family is "a lie".

Davis then writes, "According to the mainstream media spin, this is OK, because the rest of the family has disowned Osama for his terrorist activities and anti-US views. This spin is also a lie." Again, Davis gives absolutely no evidence to support his assertion. I wonder why the bin Laden family changed their name to Binladin, in order to disassociate themselves with Osama? (In fairness, there is credible evidence that some of Osama's relatives continue to support him. But it's wrong of Davis to omit the opposing view.)

Furthermore, if the CIA was somehow supporting bin Laden, then why would he want to attack the United States?

Davis continues, "How was it possible for the World Trade Center's two towers to have completely collapsed as a result of two jet planes? The towers in fact stood for forty-five and ninety minutes after the crashes. The official story is that the burning jet fuel caused the steel girders supporting them to melt. However, there is simply no credibly scientific evidence to support this story. The WTC towers were designed to take the impact of a Boeing 707. It is highly unlikely that fire from the jet fuel could have melted the steel girders. This is especially true of the South tower since the plane did not hit it directly. Therefore most of the fuel did not fall inside the building. The South Tower was hit second and fell first. Both towers collapsed evenly and smoothly in a manner consistent with that caused by a planned demolition. Based upon scientific evidences, photos and videos of the event, and reports of scientists, the WTC architect and engineers, it is highly unlikely that the Towers collapsed because of burning jet fuel rather than demolition."

Davis is not an engineer or a physicist. He has absolutely no qualification to definitively state any of the above. I've yet to find any credible scientist supporting this view.

And bombs in the WTC would increase the complexity of the conspiracy considerably, making it even harder to believe that it could be successfully orchestrated.

Davis asks, "Eleven bin Laden family members were flown safely out of the same Boston airport where the highjacking took place a few days earlier. Why were they not detained for questioning?" In fact, they were questioned extensively by the FBI.

Davis's last point is that "ejecting claim that the evidence for collusion is over-ruled by a belief that no country would do this to its own citizens, simply requires pointing out that the contemplation of terrorist attacks on U.S. citizens by the CIA is a matter of public record."

This is simply not true. Davis is referring to Operation Northwoods, in which top military and intelligence officials contemplated a number of measures to allow for an invasion of Cuba. Among these were attacking Cuban immigrants, attacking U.S. military targets, and faking an attack on a U.S. civilian airliner. An attack on American civilians was never considered.

Davis also writes that "Roosevelt is believed to have known about beforehand" about the attack on Pearl Harbor. This idea is not accepted by credible mainstream historians. As Howard Zinn notes in A People's History of the United States, the evidence just isn't there.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I agree
I have lots of reservations about this article.



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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Gee. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists agree with the gym teacher.
From the BAS, March/April 2003, Volume 59, No. 2, pp. 28-37

Slow-walked and stonewalled

The administrations near-gag order assured a less-than-satisfactory outcome to the congressional investigation of 9/11.

By John Prados

From the day after September 11, 2001, when the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, D.C. took place, it was clear there would be a congressional investigation of the intelligence aspects of the disaster. Unanswered questions loomed in everyones minds: Who were the men who had seized airliners in flight and driven them into huge buildings? How had they eluded sophisticated American security systems? And what warning, if any, had there been?

It took some time to agree on the form the inquiry might take, but at length the issue was settled, and the examination was completed in December 2002. Oddly enough, given the magnitude of the attacks and the importance of learning how they could have happened, the inquiry attracted startlingly little attention.

How did that happen? It is important to understand how the investigation was conducted, how it became sidetracked, and what the process can tell us, not only about the workings of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and its intelligence cohorts, but also about Bush administration policy and politics.

The shape of things to come

For nearly three decades after its creation, the peacetime U.S. intelligence community functioned in silencein the shadows, as the spies are fond of saying. That was not so much because the work was inherently secret, but because there was broad public consensus at the height of the Cold War that intelligence activities were necessary and appropriate. During the time of the Vietnam war, however, that consensus began to erode, partly due to revelations of questionable activities, some in Vietnam, but others in the United States and elsewhere; partly due to Watergate-induced suspicion of the government, and partly due to the lessening of Cold War hostility between the United States and Russia (then the Soviet Union). Over the years there have been a succession of major investigations of the CIA and related matters.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/2003/ma03/ma03prados....
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Ridiculous
In no way does this article indicate that the BAS agrees with the aforementioned gym teacher about anything. It's merely says that the Bush administration is doing everything in its power to prevent a real 9/11 investigation -- what everyone already knows. That's just as likely to mean a coverup of incompetence as a coverup of complicity.

In the future, it would be a good idea to read articles before you post them.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Wrong, again.
First, you should follow your own advice. You skimmed the article, at best, otherwise you'd see this from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists article:

EXCERPT...

This is the background against which the September 11 investigation should be seen. Looking back, there have been periodic major inquiries into intelligence matters, as well as a rough correspondence between the perceived severity of excess and the scale of the investigations.

From the beginning the avenues available for the latest investigation were clear. There could be committee investigations by either or both houses of Congress, a joint congressional committee, or a blue ribbon commission. From the outset, President George W. Bush expressed no interest in a commission. When legislation authorizing a commission was first offered late in 2001, the military campaign in Afghanistan was at its height, and that fact was used to argue that investigations would distract the war managers. On January 29, 2002, when Bush spoke to Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, a White House spokesman told the press, The president thinks its important for Congress to review events in a way that does not unduly burden the defense and intelligence communities, as they are still charged with fighting a war.3

The administration could do nothing to prevent inquiries from the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence or the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, both of which began preparations for inquiries, exactly as those bodies had done for Iran-contra. In late January 2002, both President Bush and Vice President Richard Cheney separately approached Daschle, asking that inquiries be limited to the intelligence committees. In mid-February the two houses of Congress, controlled by different parties, responded by setting up a joint inquiry, an action described as unprecedented.4

CONTINUED...

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/2003/ma03/ma03prados....

So, go ahead and "pick and choose" what you want to refute, durutti. I don't give a hoot. Divide and conquer makes for some lousy scholarship. Then again, you sound like you already know that and everything else.

You make one thing very clear You have no interest in evaluating the thesis of this or the other article. That's too bad, because you missed the point. You missed it in the two article's conclusion, so I'll spell out what both articles are about for you the Secret Government exists to rule you without your consent.

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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. I read it again.
Nothing in that article suggests LIHOP to me.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. look whos talking...
Edited on Thu Nov-27-03 01:32 AM by bpilgrim
put up some links to back up your allegations since i read through just half and spoted many untruths in there like...

- UBL family 'were questioned extensively by the FBI' before being flown out of the country.

911 Victim Ellen Mariani Open Letter To The POTUS
Thursday, 27 November 2003, 1:36 pm

On the morning of the attack, you and members of your staff were fully aware of the unfolding events yet you chose to continue on to the Emma E. Booker Elementary School to proceed with a scheduled event and "photo op". While our nation was under attack you did not appear to blink an eye or shed a tear. You continued on as if everything was "business as usual".

In the days following the attacks all air traffic was grounded and Americans, including myself, were stranded wherever they had been when the flight ban was imposed. I was stranded at Midway Airport in Chicago, unable to continue on to California for my daughter's wedding. Imagine my surprise when I later found out that during this "no fly" period a number of people were flown out of the country on a 747 with Arabic lettering on the fuselage. None of these people were interviewed or questioned by any local, State or Federal agencies. Why were they allowed to leave and who exactly was on that flight. We know for a fact that some of the people on the flight were members of (or related to) the royal family of Saudi Arabia and members of the Bin Laden family. Were these people allowed to leave because of the long-standing relationships that your family has with both families?

more...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

- "first of all, bin Laden and the CIA never had a "close working relationship"."
http://new.globalfreepress.com/movs/wonk/5thEstate.911C...

- 'Furthermore, if the CIA was somehow supporting bin Laden, then why would he want to attack the United States?'

blowback or more likely the U.S. looked the other way to kick off their PNAC project, they could, by then, just let UBL be UBL and play dumb after words... but who directed them to is the real question... there are only a few who could and no, it isn't important to know their names just that they exist and are small in number and most likely the leaders of gov and industry.

about building falling in their own footprints don't forget wtc7
http://globalfreepress.net/911/wt7/flash_8fps/wtc7.8fps...

"And bombs in the WTC would increase the complexity of the conspiracy considerably, making it even harder to believe that it could be successfully orchestrated."

a small outfit could - and does - do it coincidentally just such an outfit was hired to haul away the rubble...

and your last comment about HZ and PH doesn't mean anything because his book was written in 1980 before the documents that historians now refer to in their conclusions about what we did and didn't know about PH.

Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor

It was not long after the first Japanese bombs fell on the American naval ships at Pearl Harbor that conspiracy theories began to circulate, charging that Franklin Roosevelt and his chief military advisors knew of the impending attack well in advance. Robert Stinnett, who served in the U.S. Navy with distinction during World War II, examines recently declassified American documents and concludes that, far more than merely knowing of the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt deliberately steered Japan into war with America.

Stinnett's argument draws on both circumstantial evidence--the fact, for example, that in September 1940 Roosevelt signed into law a measure providing for a two-ocean navy that would number 100 aircraft carriers--and, more importantly, on American governmental documents that offer apparently incontrovertible proof that Roosevelt knowingly sacrificed American lives in order to enter the war on the side of England. Although obviously troubled by his discovery of a systematic plan of deception on the part of the American government, Stinnett does not take deep issue with its outcome. Roosevelt, he writes, faced powerful opposition from isolationist forces, and, against them, the Pearl Harbor attack was "something that had to be endured in order to stop a greater evil--the Nazi invaders in Europe who had begun the Holocaust and were poised to invade England." Sure to excite discussion, Stinnett's book offers what may be the final word on the terrible matter of Pearl Harbor. --Gregory McNamee --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

more...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074320129...

there are a LOT of question unanswered and before dismissing folks out of hand it would be much wiser to do some research yourself and try to answer the legit issues raised by the folks who have been studying this for years and present sources to back up your 'logic' or THERORIES.

"the only thing new in this world is the history you don't know." - HARRY TRUMAN

peace


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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
57. Even the History Channel
//far more than merely knowing of the Japanese plan to bomb Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt deliberately steered Japan into war with America.//

Has brought this to light, i've seen the show more than once ....It's pretty widely accepted nowadays. It's still doesn't wash with critics who are still convinced we were sneak attacked because it's simply too inconvenient a fact for them.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
58. Day of Deceit is an excellent book, and very well-researched...more links.
...Stinnit really did his homework.

Scroll down to Author Robert B. Stinnett
<http://www.pearlharbor41.com/1.htm >

What irony!

"ROBERT B. STINNETT served in the United States Navy under Lieutenant George Bush from 1942 to 1946, where he earned ten battle stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. He worked as a photographer and a journalist for the Oakland Tribune until 1986, after which he resigned as a full-time employee to devote himself to this book. He is a consultant on the Pacific War for the BBC and Asahi and NHK Television in Japan. He divides his time between Oakland and Hawaii."

Cover notes from Day of Deceit
<http://www.pearlharbor41.com/notes.htm >

Praise for Robert Stinnett's Day Of Deceit
<http://www.pearlharbor41.com/praise.htm >

fdr and pearl harbor - the foia revelations
<http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id1488/pg2 />

The McCollum Memo
<http://salc.wsu.edu/fair_s02/fs7 /(pearl%20harbor%20group)/mccollum.htm>

"The McCollum Memo was the plan set in action during the summer of 1940 to get the United States into World War 2. The memo read as follows:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies .
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang Kai-shek.
D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.
F. Keep the main strength of the US Fleet, now in the Pacific, in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.
H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire (Stinnett 8)


Basically, the McCollum plan points at an economic war against the Japanese Empire, and that is precisely how Franklin Roosevelt wanted it to seem to the Japanese. In this way FDR knew he could get involved in the war if he stifled the supplies of the Japanese Empire. Roosevelt cut down on many exports to Japan and 'on July 26th, aviation fuel and the highest quality of iron and steel scrap were brought under licensing control and shipments subsequently stopped ' (Neumann 266). Thus, Japan was without one of its biggest oil and scrap metal suppliers."


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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. In support of Davis' claim (Greg Palast..)
Regarding "...the rest of the family has disowned Osama for his terrorist activities and anti-US views. This spin is also a lie."

The 28 pages missing from the official 9-11 report ('found' by Palast) clearly show that the disowning of Osama by the rest of the Bin Laden family is indeed a lie.

(exerpts from transcript)

"..an investigation FBI agents wanted to do but were not released to do until September 13, 2001 - to investigate what the FBI calls a suspected terrorist organization - why cant the FBI investigate a suspected terrorist organization?
... this organization they were looking at backed by the Saudi royal family ...
...these are the kind of guys that FBI agents would like to go after but they couldn't - Why - who are these guys and I turned to page 2 and what do you know - there it says Abdul and Omar Bin Laden - now that was kind of interesting to me - because we were told that there is the black sheep of the Bin Laden family and that is Osama and then there is the white sheep of the Bin Laden family - now we know that the rest of them are White Sheep because they have supported the Bush family enterprise...
..Apparently some of the FBI agents thought that a couple of members of the Bin Laden family were gray sheep..."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/22/152...
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/22/152...
rtsp://rx-lvl3-ny06.rbn.com/demnow/demnow/demand/2003/a...
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. your post is full of dubious claims
for want of a better word. the word best used to describe Bush administration claims.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
72. Totally agree... this guy is just spounting off...
The WTC towers were designed to take the impact of a Boeing 707. It is highly unlikely that fire from the jet fuel could have melted the steel girders.... etc...

This guy is not an engineer. He's a PE teacher. I've read the journals and it's prettty clear the planes alone took the buildings down.

First, the buildings DID survive the impact of an airplane much larger than a 707, so that part of the engineering was sound. The fire is what took them down.

The fire was STARTED by the jet fuel, but the building was full of all sorts of other things that burn. The collapse of the buildings was caused by a failure of the of the joists that ran from the central core to the outer skin of the building. Once the weak link in the chain failed, collapse was inevitable.

The reason the second tower hit collapsed first was that the explosion breached two outer walls and it was hit 20 floors lower. The additional mass of the upper floors caused more stress and a quicker failure.

Why they fell so smoothly? A bit of luck, and also because the buildings failed from the inside, so when the outer skin of the building failed, all four walls failed at almost the same moment.

The smooth failure also goes against the whole theory that terrorists planted explosives.. If I was a terrorost planting charges in the WTC, I'd make sure it fell on other buildings to cause as much damage as possible. This is what they attempted to do in '93. In this case, falling straight down would not be the desired result,

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. The planted explosives story is disinformation...
Certainly, the 9-11 plan didn't need pre-planted explosives. The stories talking about them do a disservice for people interested in discussing the case, making it more difficult to separate the signal from the noise. I don't know why the author included this and the Pentagon missile BS in his generally sound report.

That said, much of that evidence points to the main thesis of the gym teacher's article: Bush Knew. For whatever reason, he elected not to warn the flying public, the airports, or the American people.

Don't believe me? GOOGLE "Jim Bath" "Harken" "bin Laden" and throw in George Bush for other's thoughts on the real axis of evil. For those in a hurry, here's a brief history of the Bush-bin Laden relationship that existed waaaaaay before 9-11.

Bush & Bin Laden - George W. Bush Had Ties to Billionaire bin Laden Brood

The unexplained death of Salem, Osama bin Laden's oldest brother, in 1988, brought to an abrupt end a long and intriguing relationship between President Bush and the head of the bin Laden family fortune.

By Roger Miller

The world now associates the bin Laden name with Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect be hind the terror atrocities of Sept. 11. As President George W. Bush leads an intense international manhunt for Osama, few Americans realize that Osama's eldest brother, Salem, was one of Bush's first business partners.

SNIP...

Osama embraced Islamic fundamentalism and is now the world's most wanted man. "Salem went on to become a business partner of the man who is leading the hunt for his brother," the Daily Mail's Peter Allen said. "In the 1970s, he and George W. Bush were founders of the Arbusto Energy oil company in Mr. Bush's home state of Texas."

President Bush and the bin Laden family have been connected through dubious business deals since 1977, when Salem, the head of the bin Laden family business, one of the biggest construction companies in the world, invested in Bush's start-up oil company, Arbusto Energy, Inc.

CONTINUED...

http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_07_01/Bush___Bin_La...

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, tinrobot!
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
33. Ironic
The Professor is from Kent State. That's ironic, in a way.
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. I am compelled to kick this...after reading the article you were in page 2
Edited on Thu Nov-27-03 02:31 PM by patdem
and after reading I feel compelled to kick...and will do what I can to keep it kicked...COMPELLING indeed...logic triumphs fanticy.

How only Atta's Id survived. In his pocket, on a plane that not even human remains remained, but by some 'coincidence' got thrown out of his pocket, thrown out of the building to be found blocks away...to me there are just TOO many 'coincidences' for it not to be a 'conspiracy'
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. FBI would NEVER have arrested Moussaoui,
... if not for the Minnesota flight school instructors, who were concerned about their aggresive student who only was interested in learning to turn 747s left and right in flight and in finding out where he was heading with the aircraft's GPS system.

The instructors first went to the their boss, who said contact the FAA.

The FAA said, "Gee. That's interesting. Contact the FBI."

The FBI in Minneapolis said, "Hmmm. Interesting. Don't worry about him."

The flight instructors said, "We are worried. He may be a terrorist."

So they contacted their US Representative, who contacted the FBI in Washington.

THEN the FBI busted Moussaoui. But they didn't use the FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) search warrant (for only the second time in history when it could be applied to an important national security case) and failed to search Moussaoui's laptop.

It was a tragedy, as noted by FBI Agent Colleen Rowley, who wondered if Al Quaeda had a mole in FBI Headquarters in a memo to superiors.

As it turned out, when the FBI after 9-11 decided to get the FISA warrant, the laptop included details of hijacking jetliners.

Moussaoui's computer also included the flight training data from a CD-ROM "borrowed" from one of the flight instructors. That man later died as the co-pilot for Paul Wellstone and his family and staff.

SOURCES:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/mous-j05.shtm...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/23/113...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/09.28B.fbi.agt.911.htm

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=271


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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. Yep, there is a pattern to this
stonewalling in so many areas of the 9/11 tragedy. You can see the fury in people like Crowley and O'Neill who tried to warn but were ignored.

The coincidence of the flight instructor for Moussaoui dying in Wellstones plane and O'Neill dying in the WTC.....Whew!


Goddamn infuriating. :grr:
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. I am going to link this to the LIHOP questioners
but a big fat kick in the meantime
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
49. Another kick for the uninformed
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thanks, patdem! I'm at my sister's for Thanksgiving Feast!!!
Much obliged for the kick! Thinking today of Thanksgivings past...on ein particular.

The BFEE has been in business since November 22, 1963.

And all DUers are doing all we can to close their transnational criminal enterprise down once and for all Novembe 2004.

So what if Bushler is in Baghdad? We got the number of the Little Turd from Crawford.

Until then, thank Gore for the Internet. Thank skinner, Elad, and the rest of DU for the greatest meeting place in Virtual Reality.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
54. No wonder the Chimp was teary eyed today. He is guilt ridden.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. Don't give him credit for guilt-he doesn't care
BFEE uber alles, you know.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. No kidding
There is nothing in Bush, but a big hole in his soul.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
67. Some people don't believe things even it slaps them in the face
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 09:33 PM by nolabels
I don't mind people like that, I kind of like them sometimes, keeps people on their toes. I have spent a few months tooling around this board looking into many things. I have realized most junk taught history classes at government schools is just that.

The government and the wealthy want people to believe things certain ways to perpetuate the status quo. Well it looks likes it's to the point of breaking (sometimes, I wish too), or at least to the point of having major things fall beyond suspect (at least a thinking person would think that way, wouldn't they?). So if you find me posting that everything will turn back into dirt eventually don't be surprised.........

http://www.disinfo.com/site/Topic10.html
http://www.liberalconspiracy.com/911quiz.htm

Take the 9/11 Quiz

There may be a lot of reporting on September 11, but there's been very little good reporting. Major stories have been overlooked, reporters have failed to follow important leads and when it comes to this subject, both politicians and the media have suffered from a type of collective amnesia, oftentimes forgetting information that is publicly available. Take the quiz below and see some of the things the media has been missing out on.

1. Before September 11, how many times did President Bush's national security leadership meet to discuss terrorism?

a) Once
b) Twice
c) 14
d) 27

(snip)(snip)

2. If a U.S. intelligence agency requests that a foreign government detain a suspected member of al-Qaeda at an airport, and during questioning that suspected al-Qaeda member admits that he had spent the last two months in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and then admits that he is headed back to the United States, where he says he is licensed to be a pilot, what should that agency do?

a) Arrest the operative on the spot.
b) Track his movements, notifying the FBI when he enters the United States.
c) Nothing.
(snip)

on edit:Wrong link, please excuse
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. The coverage of 9-11 makes JFK assassination coverage...
... seem thorough. How many stories have been brought out to see the light of day and then be buried in utter darkness forever more? Too many to list, but "Bush Knew" leads the pack.



Thanks for most interesting links, nolabels!
No worry, you don't have to explain yourself when you're with friends.



"We're looking for the real killers."

Thanks, fujiyama! Great thinks mind alike.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-03 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. You left off question # 3!
The August Briefing of the CIA to (p)resident Bush was entitled:

a)Saddam is a sneaky rat bastard up to no good who will destroy the world

b)England has conclusive proof that all forets must be clear cut NOW

c)Osama Bin Laden determined to strike
:nuke:
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