DNC Debate on MSNBC -- 4pm et -- thread #4

[Khephra]

Continue here!

[slinkerwink]

1. :kick:

[chimpymustgo]

2. Clark continues to amaze. He OWNS this debate.

Ladies and gentlemen - this is our guy.

[AP]

11. By what measure.

Sharpton sounds like he owns this debate, and owns Tom Brokaw.

Clark is doing fine. But the whole tone of this debate is that MSNBC is trying to keep a lid on things.

The questions are really weird.

[_Jumper_]

3. Dean sounded like Dore Gold

He toed the Likud line on Saudi Arabia completely. I agree with him on SA, but his close ties with AIPAC are worrisome. Can he be objective in the Middle East or will he reward AIPAC's aid and toe the Israeli line?

[slinkerwink]

7. do you remember the flack Dean got for saying we should be even-handed

concerning the I/P issue? Dean was trying to impartial and the other Dems attacked him. To me, that reveals if he gets elected, he'll be objective in the Middle East.

[_Jumper_]

37. He is very close to AIPAC

How can he be objective when he is in the pocket of a lobby that supports anything a foreign nation does?

[blm]

40. He later backed off and said he made a mistake for saying "evenhanded"

That's some set of principles he has there.

Howard "Gary, what do I do?" Dean

[PDittie]

4. This has been one of the better debates

becuase it's been two hours and because it hasn't been constantly interrupted by cheering.

Dean, Kerry, Gephardt have all been testy (I guess because it's in Iowa and they're all close), but Clark has just eclipsed everyone else.

[mike_c]

5. this is the first of the debates I've actually seen....

I'm impressed, especially with Dean, Kucinich, Mosely-Braun, Sharpton, and to a slightly lesser extent, Clark. I'm very happy to see the heat they're pouring onto Bush*. Even Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt seem to have realized that their best strategy for ducking out from under their IWR votes is to focus on the fact that Bush LIED. It's refreshing to see the gloves coming off when the candidates focus their anger on Bush!

[berner59]

19. hands down...CLARK!!!!

He's hit his stride for sure!! I think he hit it right when he said that this isn't about who voted for what...he's silenced Dean on that issue which he's frankly beaten to death...

Kerry is still trying too hard...he just doesn't have to, he's got got great ideas and experience...

Edwards is still so smooth and comfortable...boy a Clark/Edwards is mighty appealing...

Gephardt is holding his own...still a tad too angry at times...

Clark has the right balance of angry intellect going...he is VERY impressive today!!!

[xultar]

6. Think about Chimpy and Clark in a debate!

Wouldn't that put a smile on your face!

[Langis]

10. yes it would

I can't wait!

[indigo32]

8. Just want to thank everybody

keeping us cube dwellers up to date.

[Zynx]

9. Kerry has been pompous and lousy in this debate.

How many times has he gone after Dean? Some one should keep count.

[maddezmom]

12. Go AL

keeps sticking it to Bush*

[robsul82]

13. Is Edwards still awake?

Tom hasn't asked him anything for a while now.

Later.

RJS

[dawgman]

14. Sharpton Rules!

[proud patriot]

15. Threads 1 2 and 3 here

1
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=768472
2
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=768989

3
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=769157

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Flag issue!

Let's see what Clark says! Clark said..."He would support an ammendement IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SUPPORTED IT." I hope he speaks to it!

[FrenchieCat]

17. Notice they always bring up

clark's support for the flag amendment....

never Dean's, Kucinich and Gephardt stance...which is essentially the same.

that's what media whores do the best.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Yup, the media working for the WH.

I like Dean, BUT he REALLY needs to get a NEW 2 minute speech. I think I've heard the same one about 100 times. :(

[w4rma]

93. Dean doesn't support changing the U.S. Constitution for the flag

He only supports a regular bill.

[robsul82]

18. Whoa...Edwards just said Gore liked the Patriot Act?

"WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?"

Later.

RJS

[Qutzupalotl]

27. Gore liked parts of it,

but thought that as a whole it was so dangerous that it should be repealed, and the good parts brought back as separate legislation. So, a little Yes, but mostly No.

[killbotfactory]

20. Kerry on Biden/Lugar Oct. 9th 2002

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar, because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs and delivery vehicles. The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted by the resolution, to send a determination to the Congress that the United States has tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great that he must act absent a new U.N. resolution. I believe that this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority that Congress was giving the President. The Administration, unwisely in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. However, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations, which is now embodied in the revised White House text.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

Is that the same as the final IWR?

[Rose Siding]

28. NO!

Good find.

Bush couldn't agree to that because "the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq" was never his motive. Not agreeing to that should have been a CLUE.

[killbotfactory]

74. Yep.

Bush saying "Fuck Saddam we're taking him out" should have been another.

Or saying we're going in with or without the UN.

Or piling up our forces even while inspections were ongoing.

Or saying Saddam was in breach of the final resolution because we didn't find anything after only a month of inspections.

Well.. hell.. There were red flags all over the place.

[blm]

29. Noone said it was the exact same, but we still would have been in Iraq.

Both Gephardt and Kerry said it was similar. Dean has gotten pretty much a free ride on this issue while accusing the others of giving Bush a "blank check" which doesn't acknowledge ANY concessions that they fought for and won.

Kerry wasn't prowar and Dean wasn't antiwar. They were closer than most people realize thanks to the piss-poor press.

[Skwmom]

44. When is someone going to read this statement and ask

Howard Dean to explain:

He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

[killbotfactory]

55. The UN was disarming Saddam

There was no need for unilateral action, Dean didn't think the UN would allow Saddam to have WMD, and so Dean was against unilateral invasion.

What's hard to understand about that?

[killbotfactory]

66. Gephardt fought for concessions?

I remember you blaming him for undercutting Kerry's efforts to put some restraints on the IWR.

???

And when it all comes down to it, Kerry supported the war, IWR or no.

Dean didn't.

[blm]

79. Yes he did undercut the others, but concessions were still made

and to say otherwise is just untrue.

[killbotfactory]

84. What concession?

Did he get bush to promise to try really really hard to get the UN on board before invading?

[AP]

21. Edward: Did Clinton make mistakes in war v terror? NO.

"I met with Sandy Berger at end of Clinton administration...they said that terror was most important issue...Bush failed, not Clinton, by not taking Berger's warnings seriously."

Now on to the patriot act.

Brokaw takes MTP line of quesioning -- why did you vote for it? Edwards repeats MTP argument -- there were good parts in it, but it's the execution at the hands of this administration, and now we know its too much for Ashcroft to handle.

[janx]

22. Will this debate be aired again late tonight?

I missed it and would like to see it, but I won't be able to watch until later tonight.

[oasis]

45. replay at 9 p.m. est.

[oasis]

46. Possibly on C-SPAN this weekend as well

[mw]

57. Yes. I see its on CNBC later tonite (in California anyway)

I'm gonna tivo it then.

[theoceansnerves]

85. what time

do you know what time it will air on cnbc? i can't find it on their schedule. i don't get msnbc, but i do get cnbc...

[phirili]

23. Tom Brokaw doing a great job. I like the single moderator format

[karlschneider]

31. Brokaw is a self-centered prick, and has been since I knew him in Tulsa

45 years ago.

[theoceansnerves]

24. not to interrupt

but does anyone know if this will be archived online for viewing later? or rebroadcast on c-span? i don't get msnbc but i would really like to see this..

[mindfulNJ]

26. it re-airs at 9pm

on MSNBC. I must say...I am firmly in Clark's camp now. Let the fun begin:)

[poskonig]

25. Clark really has his shit together.

Three consecutive solid answers. I'm very impressed today!

[moz4prez]

30. did Gephardt just call Bush half nuts?

or was he hinting at it by attacking Kim Jong Il? it's great to see the candidates have stopped slapping each other in the small of the back

[maddezmom]

32. i think he was refering to the NKorea pres n/t

[moz4prez]

43. yeah i know

still, it's a nice thought

[robsul82]

34. No.

He called Kim Jong Il half nuts.

Later.

RJS

[karlschneider]

35. LOL! I kinda wondered who "this guy is half nuts" was he referring to!

:D

[Cush]

38. talking about Kim Jong II

[FrenchieCat]

33. Kerry said he would undo

only one of Bush's environmental fiascos???? he should have said, all of them.

Ask Kerry.....he wrote the book.

[FrenchieCat]

36. Kerry....

the ever politicking politician as his closing statement.

[Zynx]

39. He had a bad debate this time.

I want to see some of the Kerry people say otherwise.

[blm]

51. I said on an earlier thread that he's talking like his monitor is bad.

After attending over a thousand soundchecks, I can recognize when someone's monitor feed is bad. His sound and Edwards' are totally different. That throws you off because you aren't hearing yourself accurately.

[karlschneider]

52. I think he's an honorable guy but there's just something I can't identify

that kinda gives me a little creep. Maybe it's that he comes across to me as a little bit too stentorian. I dunno, I just have a little feeling of discomfort when I watch and hear him.
:eyes:

[Nashyra]

59. Clark's closing speech

"I am the only one on this stage that can go toe to toe with *. I am the only one who has negotiated a peace agreement." He can beat * in a landslide IMHO

[FrenchieCat]

41. Dean....

YOU HAVE THE POWER!

[xultar]

42. He's pandering with the whole MLK thing. I don't like it. n/t

[poskonig]

50. In fairness, Geppy invoked MLK too.

eom

[FrenchieCat]

47. CMB

beautiful sing song voice......her normal stump speech.....but good

Gephardt....MLK just like Dean.....These white men love to evoke MLK...

[PDittie]

48. Here are my immediate observations:

Clark separated from the field with some of his answers.

Kerry didn't look good at all. "The French are the French"?

Dean looked occasionally flustered and angry by lashing back at Gephardt and Kerry. (I DO like his "YOU have the power" stump.)

Gephardt did nothing to distinguish himself; Edwards remains stuck in the mud and all the rest are just window dressing.

[poskonig]

53. Good, concise summary.

:thumbsup:

[Khephra]

75. I'd agree with that

.

As a Dean supporter, I'll have to say that it was an ok debate for him. He gets points for being ready for them to attack him in mass this time, but he never really took it to the people like he's done before.

Kerry is the big loser, whether or not it's a technical fault or not.

Gephardt and Edwards? Were they even there at all? My memory of them being there is already starting to fade.

Clark was the big winner. But one debate win doesn't make a campaign win either. If he can keep this up it will end up being Clark vs Dean instead of the expected Kerry vs. Dean.

[FrenchieCat]

54. Wes....

said it best!

He is the only one.....AMEN!

[moz4prez]

56. Clark's really asserting himself and his big fat imposing resumé this time

around

[FrenchieCat]

64. I've been waiting for that....

drop the humbleness ......

he needs to tell them what he's got to offer....and that is

HE CAN BEAT GEORGE BUSH!

NUFF SAID!

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Clark

speaking on Bush's ads on PATRIOTISM! Who can stand toe to toe with Bush on foreign policy? I am the candidate who can stand with GWB. YOU BETTCHA! Go Clark!

[phirili]

60. Dean U have the Power to say somethingelse. Other than communist mantra

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[killbotfactory]

76. The people are stupid. Only the elite shall rule!

Kerry 2004!

[xultar]

61. WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!

WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!

[xultar]

62. WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!

WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!
WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!! WES CAN WIN!!!

[chimpymustgo]

63. OMG John Edwards - fabulous as always. Clark/Edwards.

Holy moly.

[FrenchieCat]

72. I agree

with that combo!

[blm]

82. Clark and Edwards did well tonight.

.

[Kahuna]

96. I think Edwards and Kerry always do well. Just goes..

to show these debates mean nada. In my opinion, Kerry and Edwards always win but they're not doing the best in the polls.

[Skidmore]

67. Did Edwards recall todays debacle in the Senate at

all? Our party gave it away.

[Cush]

68. Tom, you aren't running

Why do you get a closing comment???

[moz4prez]

81. retirement.

he won't be moderating any more debates

[DemCam]

69. tom gave a fine closing remarks..

didn't know he was running...

[chimpymustgo]

70. Brokaw: the corn is as high was an elephant's eye.

Wow, he's really turned into quite the egotist. It's all about - HIM!

[Cocoa]

94. lol

sounded like he had a comedy writer come up with that closing speech.

Yes, Tom, thank you for putting the important Tawana Brawley question out there. :eyes:

[Rose Siding]

71. I think Brokaw did a good job

He was even handed and while he didn't shy from the hot spots, he didn't throw any gasoline.

[mike_c]

73. I cannot wait to hear the chimpster debate ANY ONE...

...of the Democratic candidates for president. He's toast.

[FrenchieCat]

77. I don't know if I can

stick around for the aftermath....where a win turns into a lose!

[Bread and Circus]

78. Funny, I was at work and I forgot all about the debate....

:)

I am glad Clark did well.

[FrenchieCat]

80. Lieberman....

back to cry......watch him dog out Clark!

[ErasureAcer]

83. Clark will lose

Clark has NO domestic agenda.

People want healthcare, education and equal rights!

[Dookus]

86. Clark has a fine domestic agenda...

and it's easy to find it out. Try www.clark04.com


People also want security, peace and competence. Clark offers all those.

[Nashyra]

87. Howard Fineman thinks Clark came out on top

Just says he thought Clark "won" the debate.

[Dookus]

88. It would be hard to disagree with that assessment...

Clark CLEARLY showed he has the guts and inclination to take on Bush directly. He's not gonna be afraid to fight, and he's always fought to win.

Combine that with his very liberal politics, and he'll be a powerful force.

[Melinda]

91. Fineman is a whore of the nth degree.

Right behind Peggy Noonan and Tweety, and most progressive/liberals I know take anything any of them say with a HUGE grain of salt.

That said however, Clark WAS impressive - he did a great job taking on Bush* and his Iraqmire. Good job Wes. :thumbsup:

[Kahuna]

98. Howard seems to genuinely like Clark. The rest of the..

whore media hates Clark but Bush's lapdog Fineman likes him. Go figure. I'm totally confused. :silly:

[Melinda]

100. Don't be confused.

It's bring down Dean day. Those so called 4th estators will roast Clark soon enough - and you can take that to the bank.

[Kahuna]

105. Oh please. Reread my post. I already said that the..

rest of the media hate Clark. So stop trying to act like you informed me about something I already know.

[redqueen]

92. Security?

We could have prevented 9/11.

Too bad the MIC's propoganda works so well. :(

on edit: not criticizing Clark's policies at all... just saying.

[Bread and Circus]

90. Your post is so crazy and outta line....here, read:

http://clark04.com/issues/

Mis-representing the truth doesn't help Kucinich. He is
a fine man.

[xultar]

95. Can I have some of what you're smokin? n/t

[robsul82]

89. Debate called for Clark...

...on Hardball, Fineman said so and there was no disagreeing, so I've gotta believe that's the call.

They made basically two points - 1) Clark won and 2) the attack on Dean was obviously coordinated.

Later.

RJS

[xultar]

97. The Debate after the Debate...Clark did well! Wouldn't let

Chris railroad him.

GENERAL SMACKDOWN! has officially arrived.

[madfloridian]

99. From just reading the thread I surmise one of two things:

Either Dean did not get much chance to talk, or he did not do well. I rather doubt he did so poorly he is not mentioned, so did he get a chance to talk?

Did Hardball interview him or just Clark?

I have just not watched the TV at all this afternoon, so I have going just by this thread.

[unfrigginreal]

101. You know that I'm biased but

I thought Dean did great. He had to fend off the tag teamers of Kerry-Gep most of the debate and I think it probably cost him a few additional questions from Brokaw. Dean was much better in this debate than any of the others. Kerry was a BIG loser in my opinion. Clark did extremely well, and probably "won" the debate when he got real fired up during the IW questions.

[OKNancy]

103. Well I AM biased

and I will try to give you my unbiased opinion. Dean did fine. Some of the questions were awkward and since he had to do rebuttals it was hard for him to get on a roll. Dean just wasn't as "sparked" as we've seen him.

Clark did really well, but that doesn't mean Dean did a bad job.

[Myra]

102. If debate's gonna be on CSPAN please let us know...

I looked at CSPAN's schedule and don't see it so far.
And my cable doesn't get MSNBC; and I do get CNBC
but they're not reruning it in Seattle.
Whatta bummer.

MSNBC's boasting about their "exclusive" debate.
Yeah it's exclusive. Doesn't seem like debates should be though.
Seems like they should be broadcase so people with/without/
with different cable can all see them.

Whatta country...

[Bertrand]

104. Two Things

1. Dean should never use the term "pooh-pooh" again if he is trying to run a populist campaign.

2. Clark should stop leading his replys to questions with "let me tell you ..." and "im glad you asked that" because he comes across as disingenuous.

Edit: forgot to add "im glad you asked that"