On CNN now, commentator said of Dean "He seemed like a Cult leader"

[ShaneGR]

The commentator (Invited by Candy Crawley)said he seemed like more of a cult leader than a Presidential candidate. He based it on the chanting of "You have the power" at the end of his Iowa speech.

That's very harsh, and unwarranted. But I've noticed the media, as a whole,has started to label Dean pretty badly lately.

I don't like it, even though I'm totally undecided between Dean, Clark, and Edwards.

[andym]

1. They're laying the groundwork for future attacks

They're laying the groundwork for future attacks,
to begin in earnest after Dean wins the nomination.

Time to take preventive defensive measures is now.

[Sagan]

2. was it Candy Crowley

I would not be surprised.

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. No,

it was Joe Klein. Another WH ass kisser.

[slinkerwink]

8. ugh. Joe Klein...

he has a really ugly mouth---have you noticed that?

[ShaneGR]

12. Yeah, Joe Klein.... sorry I didn't write it down

peace

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. No, but I'll check it out

the next time he's spewing his rhetoric. :7

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Klein backs Kerry. 'Nuff said.

[slinkerwink]

68. ugh, media whores shouldn't let politics or support of other candidates

interfere with their reporting

[TLM]

122. Yep and funny how the Dean bashers on DU

have been mouthing these same cult/kool-aid smears for weeks.

[Cha]

23. For joe klein to say that is disingenous at

best. I want to see him and the other newswhores go down almost as much as their god bush.

[polpilot]

171. He meant 'Dean seemed like a leader' Been so long it seems cultish!!

Dean '04...

[jeter]

76. Joe Klein isn't a WH ass kisser...

...but he has, lately, been more anti-Dean than usual. I think he supports Clark.

Klein is a well known Democratic leaning journalist.

He wrote "Primary Colors" though. But also wrote "The Natural" about Bill Clinton.

[regnaD kciN]

95. Are you talking about...

...the author of "Primary Colors"...? I wouldn't be all that impressed with whatever he said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Perchance they are starting to realize

that bush will be trounced by Dean so they need to do that

[jonoboy]

4. did he mean like the 'cult of the zombies' that follow Bush

that is outrageous of CNN..we must protest to them.

[slinkerwink]

5. well, Dean was saying "you have the power" because his supporters

were yelling "We have the power" back at him---so newfound political enthusiasm is now cultlike?

[ShaneGR]

6. I AM NOT SAYING I AGREE WITH THE COMMENTS

I do not... I think they're pathetic smear attempts. I'm just letting the Dean people know what was said.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. It's said here everyday.

Deaniacs.
Kool Aid drinkers.
Deanieboopers from Deanbopia.
Deanuts.

When you have nothing, name calling is the last resort.

[liberalmuse]

9. At least the Dean 'cultists'

are capable of rational thought and creativity, unlike the whackos who follow and mindlessly vote for Bush because 'He's called by god'. CNN makes me sick.

[AmericanDem]

10. Ide take nothing from CNN seriously

Especially if it involved Woodruff or Crowley. CNN= Crooked News Network

[chimpymustgo]

18. Lots of people were creeped out by the "You've got the power" chant.

Dean supporters and non-Dean supporters alike compared it to a cult-like, Tony Robbins hypno-performance. It was heavily discussed here Saturday night and Sunday.

Don't blame the messenger this time. Take a look at the tape if you can. It was skin crawl city.

[slinkerwink]

22. the audio on that tape didn't capture the huge roar of the Dean crowd

and the yelling "We have the power" from Dean supporters...

[Julien Sorel]

67. Ever been to a Charismatic church?

The audience chants back, too. I imagine Jim Jones' followers also chanted back.

[Cha]

88. And you have an agenda

that includes sourgrapes.

[RetroLounge]

107. and I imagine you are full of it

sour grapes that is.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

123. See they can't help but repeat the right wing talking point attacks.

Calling supporters of Dean cult-like and comparing them to Jonestown is the bread and butter of most Dean bashers. They simply mouth right wing Dean bashing memes from media whores, while simultaneously claiming the media is propping up Dean.


It is a clear indication of how they not only are devoid of positive things to say about their candidate, but also too intellectually bankrupt to come up with any substantive arguments.

[Julien Sorel]

126. Attacking the source is another example of

someone who is intellectually bankrupt. But making up lies is the ultimate example, wouldn't you say?

By the way, neither you nor the sour grapes girls has even tried to argue the point. Attacking me isn't making an argument. Perhaps you'd care to try?

[ModerateMiddle]

158. actually, we all say it because

it looks like that to us. Cult-like "my candidate can do no wrong" and missteps become reasons to give him more money. Just because some right wing folks say it doesn't make it untrue, or at the very least a very real perception that many folks have.

[Bridget Burke]

144. Many Black congregations use Call & Response

in their worship. You must disapprove of that, as well.

[Julien Sorel]

154. No, I don't dis-approve of it. But politics isn't religion, or at least,

isn't supposed to be. That's what the whole discussion is about.

[CWebster]

155. yeah like Clark adulation threads

of rapt devotees gushing over soldier's fond war stories or in adoring awe of the General's master of four languages.

Right, Bunter?

;-)

[Julien Sorel]

157. I haven't seen any Clark people somnambulantly chanting

yet, while ignoring reality. When I do, then I'll be concerned.

[CWebster]

162. "..we are in numbers drowning out the Dean threads.. .

from RichM's excellent short-lived thread. Note how he is attacked by the Clark forces for being a Dean supporter although RichM repeatedly has noted his support for Kucinich.

Talk about a cult following


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=732738

[Julien Sorel]

165. Were they mindlessly chanting? No? You'll have to get back

to me when they are. And RichM is on my ignore list for pushing whacked-out conspiracy theories, has been for many months now, so unless he has developed some sense, I have no reason to believe this thread of his was any different from the mindless trash he was pushing several months ago. You'll have to do better than that. Defending your candidate against whack job conspiracy theories does not a cult make.

[CWebster]

166. RichM, conspiracy theories?

Man buddy, I really wonder why you are here. Might as well put us all on ignore so you can get a conversation going.

[ModerateMiddle]

159. another typical dean diversion

1. attack the messenger
2. divert attention by bringing up THEIR candidate's shortfalls
3. claim victimhood

[CWebster]

163. The message that dean had a "cult" following?

Oh yes, no one discuss their candidates supporters in relation to the charge.

oh yes, charge victimhood status for even suggesting a rebuttal.

[_NorCal_D_]

164. Gimme a break!

I've never seen a braggart quite like a Dean supporter.

On edit: Forgive me for generalizing, but I suppose that the truth can hurt. B-)

[bobbieinok]

179. what about a traditional black church???

there's a back and forth dialogue between minister and congregation....speaker and audience.

I heard MLK speak in person twice. There was the back and forth dialogue in the black church in Tulsa OK(1960). I don't remember it when he spoke to a predominantly white audience at my CA grad school.

[Cha]

28. Yeah, I can see where it would make supporters',

of candidates who are behind, "skin crawl"...but if you really believe that we have "The Power" to "Take Back Our Country" then it's an awesome, exciting feeling to know.

[CWebster]

148. It is a repeat of the Wellstone memorial -

How dare those Democrats rally a crowd! We must voice stern dispproval before this sort of thing gets ourt of hand! The Democrats are a cult party that must know it's limits, they must be reminded of the subserviant status of boosting and applauding the Right.

Have I got it right?

[Cocoa]

47. it's true, people were saying that

so it's not really correct to see this comment of Klein's as being totally made up out of whole cloth.

Whether it is worthy of calling it political commentary is another story...

I didn't find it creepy myself, I found it awkward and I didn't really get the message. I don't really see how Dean is going to give us back the power. Is it all about fundraising, or what?

[Julien Sorel]

70. You don't get Dean at all.

It isn't about the fundraising; it's about the healthcare and the jobs. Dean says he's going to 'empower people by giving them healthcare and jobs.' The fact that the rest of the candidates also are offering healthcare and jobs, in fact, all the frontrunners have similar plans, is besides the point: when Dean offers these things, it's 'empowerment,' when the other candidates do, it's simply business as usual from 'Washington insiders.' Who wouldn't pony up the hard cash given such a stark contrast? In fact, you know Dean is offering 'empowerment,' because if he wasn't, his supporters would be maxing out their credit cards and eating Top Ramen so they can donate to Dean for nothing at all, and they have solemnly assured me, right here on this message board, that that isn't the case.

[RetroLounge]

108. Yeah, but too bad the other candidates have plans

that don't resonate with the voters.

Oh, except voting for the war, yeah, that plan worked.

[Julien Sorel]

114. What did this post have to do with the topic at hand?

Never mind -- no point in expecting you to start making sense this late in the game.

[TLM]

124. The empowerment of Dean's campaign is easily seen

provided your view isn't obscured by the interior of your colon.


The campaign is a bottom up campaign, where the folks on the ground are the ones making the difference. We've built a massive organization that has already demonstrated the power to raise record breaking funds, influence media coverage, move Dean in the polls from a nobody to the front runner... we did that. The Dean campaign is empowering in the same way a union is empowering.

Oh but I guess you consider unions cults too.

Are you really so desperate to bash Dean that you’ll attack the very act of being excited and politically motivated as a cult behavior? People aren’t getting excited about your guy, so attack the idea of being excited for a candidate as the same as being a follower of Jim Jones. Why not attack voting as a cult behavior too while you’re at it? Dean bashers are actually sinking to the disgusting level of attacking Dean for being able to inspire people and get people involved in politics!

Have fun in my ignore file.

[ModerateMiddle]

160. It's a great campaign!

Pity they have such an awful candidate.

[Cha]

87. Who cares that "people are saying that" ...BFD!

people will say anything who don't want others to succeed!
And you haven't noticed that bush has taken "power" away from the People and given to the corporations? Hmm...Dean has led an insprired campaign that acknowledges that and reawakens political activism. That is why Dean is getting the Endorsements from the Unions. It's about "you're either being busy being born or busy dying" WE're about "being born" :kick:

[HFishbine]

143. Can't Deny

It would be foolish to deny that some people are tunred off by that. "You've got the power," started at Deans formal announcement of his candidacy. At that time it was sponatneous and genuine. Now it's practiced and forced. Add to that the impression some people have that it's creepy and I think there's good reason for Dean to go back to trusting his instincts and be a little more spontaneous.

[Cha]

11. And what is bush? Anything that gives "Power To

The People" is a cult ...but giving Power to bush and the pnac crowd is considered wise?

There is an excellent article about Dean & The Unions in "Newsweek" by Jonathan Alter called "Is Labor Dying Or Being Born" ...it is written by a journalist with a progressive view and it is very
encouraging..

edit~ my thoughts are directed at Joe Klien

[Lorien]

78. Exactly. Bush IS a cult leader-"ordained by God"

and millions have guzzled the kool-aid!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. Candy Crowley is one of the biggest..

whores CNN has. She makes NO bones about showing her contempt for Democrats -- if you witnessed her performance during the eleciton night 2002 coverage you would know exactly whatI mean.

I would seriously suspect anyone she diegned to invite to comment.

[killbotfactory]

14. But the media loves Dean and he's getting a free ride!

or so the sour grapes say.

[slinkerwink]

17. lol.....ahh...

:toast:

[blm]

24. We said there was an expiration date on Dean's teflon from the media.

So, the more it looks like they've accomplished their initial mission, they'll take more swipes at Dean to strip that teflon off and reapply it to the dictatortot.

[w4rma]

111. You'll be right there helping, right blm? (n/t)

[blm]

153. I'm not the media and I'm not the candidate pretending to be a populist.

You supporters are so happy when the media teflon keeps Dean from being hurt, yet all it does is paint an unrealistically rosy picture that won't match the devastating reality of 2004.

I used to think all the candidates could beat Bush. I no longer believe that, and in fact, believe only 3 of them can beat Bush now.

[TLM]

125. LOL!!! Talk about some spin....

The media has taken shots like this at Dean since the start when Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman's DLC attacked Dean for being a fringe leftist that did not represent the heart of the democratic party.

The reason they haven't stuck, is that they are BULLSHIT and Dean calls them on it right away.

[Eric J in MN]

15. no political chants allowed!

...except at Republican rallies.

[unfrigginreal]

19. Joe Klein?

The same Joe Klein that's been giving the Kerry campaign advice? Who'd a thunk it?

[_NorCal_D_]

20. We want Dean! We want Dean!

B-)

[Eloriel]

21. Well, that particular meme has gotten a lot of practice

right here at DU.

Great going, guys!

It's total horseshit, of course, but when did that ever stop the anti-Dean brigade?

Eloriel

[ShaneGR]

27. I am not anti-Dean

I'm just letting you know what's being said.

[Closer]

34. Sure you're not

you're just merely "helping the Dean folks out," making us aware of what was said, right? :eyes:

You cared so much that you wanted to start a thread on it.

Nice, thanks for this important information sgr2! We know you're looking out for us!

:eyes:

[ShaneGR]

50. Hey man, take it as you see it

No offense, would you prefer not to see what is said about Dean???


gees.

[xultar]

38. Don't you think you're taking things to personally?

She was simply letting you know what was said. So, no one can post anything "negative" about Dean? Even if it is to slam it from a Democratic Liberal perspective?

That may be going a little too far.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. It is outrageous the "liberty" commentators take

to ridicule men and women who have accomplished great things in their lives and gone on to organize strong national followings to seek the office of President. "Cult leader" "unhinged" "out of control" blah blah blah. I don't care what type of political hack or operator a commentator might be, or what their secret agenda is, the really sad thing is that they obviously think they can glibbly throw out total smears like that and still have their words taken seriously. I'm a Clark backer but I hate it when they throw that crap at anyone.

[slinkerwink]

29. same here too!!!

This is why our press isn't totally "free" in America...

[_NorCal_D_]

37. I agree.

Troops are dying in Iraq, and CNN chooses to blab on about a perceived Dean cult following? It's pathetic and disgusting.

[quinnox]

26. Dean can appear like a maniac at times

He gets red-faced, and acts like some kind of televangelist.

It is scary.

And some of his supporters do act like Dean is on a divine pedestal, and shouldn't be questioned, because he is always right.

[_NorCal_D_]

31. I don't know.

I want my country back! and you have the power! are just silly political platitudes. Hardly cult material! B-):bounce:

[Cha]

32. It's totally awesome what Dean is doing for

those of us who were tired of roll over democrats. It is, indeed, a movement more than a campaign. We're gonna roll right over that bushhead and his pnac crowd.

[RetroLounge]

100. Only Scary to those whose candidate is tanking

Sour Grapes...

Oh, wait, I forgot to chant...

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN!!!!!

There, now I feel strangely serene...

[LizW]

30. Not exactly the most original insult, is it? (n/t)

[Panda1]

33. Keep that in mind...

....when the bushmoonies start chanting "four more years!"
Or, when the masses chant "USA, USA"...cult members indeed.:argh:

[_NorCal_D_]

44. Good point!

[Cha]

98. Touche! n/t

[Mz Pip]

35. I've been wondering what tactic

they would use against Dean. So this is it - Cult Leader.

Interesting to note that this is the 25 anniversary of Jonestown. Remember Jim Jones? Over 900 people died when he told his followers to drink poisoned Kool-Aid. Think the comparison just sort of happened?? Link Dean to the likes of Jim Jones, at least unconciously. There will be mention of People's Temple in the news.

Candy Crowley doesn't know a cult from diddly-squat.

MzPip
:dem:

[Renew Deal]

36. It was pretty creepy

My g/f asked me if he was one of those inspirational speaker guys. Not because she was inspired, she was creeped out too.

[Closer]

40. wow, that's creepy

Looks like you (and your girlfriend) better stop watching Dean then. Don't want you guys to get creeped out again for heaven's sake! :hi:

[Renew Deal]

53. C'mon did you see it

It was weird. He reminded us of Tony Robbins

Is Tony the man you want for president. :evilgrin:

[TLM]

129. Yeah or every f-ing football or baseball or basketball game ever...

From CHARGE to WE WILL ROCK YOU... the fight song or chant is nothing new to any movement.


However some folks are so desperate for something with which to attack Dean that they'll bash the very idea of being politically inspired or excited or motivated.

[RetroLounge]

109. Wow! If your girl friend got creeped out then you must be right

He is creepy!

Yup, your g/f is now my barometer of candidate creepiness.

Better not let her watch bush* or she'll go right over the edge.

Yup, Creepy indeed.

[xultar]

39. It appears that it is a double standard...we can be enthusiastic

about * and they'll call it PATRIOTISM
if we are enthusiastic about a Democratic candidate we are mindless wierdos

Hummmmm I gottcha.

RW media does it again

[slinkerwink]

41. yep, they'll be pulling the same thing on the Clark people if Clark gets

the nomination nod...

[chimpymustgo]

43. Clark would never pull that kind of Moonie act.

Did you SEE it???

[SahaleArm]

45. Moonie act? Ouch

That's harsh.

[Cha]

91. Sourgrapes cause we're not talking about

edwards?

[TLM]

130. Now motivating folks is a moonie act...

Is you candidate so incapable of inspiring support and exciting people that you have to attack the while idea of being excited or inspired as something limited to moonies?


Disgusting… simply disgusting how low some folks will sink to bash Dean.

It is one thing to attack a candidate on their statements or positions… but to attack the supporters for the very act of being excited about a candidate as cultists or followers of Moon, that’s reprehensible.

[RetroLounge]

110. "RW media does it again"

Yup, and all those here on DU who parrot the RW talking points when it suits there agenda.

They are so proud, I'm sure.

[matcom]

42. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Give ME The Grape Kool-Aide!!!

fucking bullshit media

how dare they say this about ANY political movement in this country (and YES, THIS EVEN INCLUDES REPUKE MOVEMENTS)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fuck our "media" this is sick and bullshit

[Cha]

92. Yes it is! But that doesn't stop the

Dean bashers from jumping on joe the whore klein's bandwagon!

[Zomby Woof]

120. what's so bad about "bashing"?

What is all this nonsense about "bashing"? Why is it so horrible? Why all this push for lockstep behavior?? That isn't healthy at all.

If we don't like Dean, are we supposed to shut up? Is that it? Just sit here and post nice happy things and talk about flowers and puppies?

[KaraokeKarlton]

127. This isn't even about Dean it's yet another insult of his supporters

And it's bigotry, plain and simple. And here I thought the Democratic Party was one that condemed bigots...so why are so many behaving like them?

Do you honestly expect Dean supporters to sit back and accept being demeaned in such a way? The Democratic Party is going to NEED us Dean supporters at some point in the future. It's really bright to alienate such a massive number of voters by calling them names and belittling them. Maybe we should just form our own damn political party and call ourselves "Deanocrats".

[SEAburb]

48. "you are getting sleepy" was Klein's first comment

after viewing the clip. Damn I had a good laugh after hearing that.

[Military Brat]

49. Repubs are hijacking language again for mind control

This is just a RW political tactic. Use a word which scares people and has extremely negative connotations. Words like terrorist, conspiracy, and of course cult.

We call bush's followers a gang. It's time to call them zealots, which has the connotation of a wild-eyed over-the-edge religious freak. That's what they are.

I would prefer to call Dean's followers visionaries, which is exactly what they are. Same can be said for the followers of Clark, Edwards, whoever. And that's because we see, clearly, and we have goals and we have the drive to achieve those goals, together. We are not blind, like the right. We Are Visionaries.

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. Kick

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

55. Oh that evil Howard Dean! How dare he be front runner?

It's got to be the devil, the DEVIL I tells ya!

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want....murmurmurmurmur....

[Zomby Woof]

56. the commentator is correct

Dean has a strong cult of personality. Normally I would halfway understand that if he had any charisma, but the fraudulent former governor has none. The extreme sensitivity and outright hostility to criticism, the rationalizations of his wafflings and obsfucations, all of it is there among his minions.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

61. soaring?

Evidence, please? He is one of the frontrunners, but has more or less had to split the difference with Clark. It is still a statistical grab between him and at least 2 of the leaders.

Even if his support was "soaring", that doesn't invalidate his quasi-cult-like qualities. Let history be your guide!

I am not a basher. To paraphrase Harry Truman, I tell the truth, and they just think it's bashing. :-)

[Closer]

64. sure you are :-)

"Normally I would halfway understand that if he had any charisma, but the fraudulent former governor has none."

If you can be brazen enough to make such false and absurd accusations, surely you can claim responsibility for it :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

66. I take full responsibility

I didn't tell the full truth. He is a fraudulent, opportunistic, waffling, hotheaded, conservative former governor.

Thanks for helping me with my oversight! ;-)

[TLM]

131. Congratulations….

You just won a one-way ticket to my ignore file for your:

A: disgusting bashing of Dean supporters as cult members.
B: attacks on Dean sans links, full quotes, context, or source citations.
C: rehashing of right-wing talking points to bash Dean.
D: deliberate misrepresentation of Dean’s statements or positions.
E: all of the above.

[Zomby Woof]

137. hahahahaha

I LOVE it when someone tells me they are putting me on ignore. I don't know why, it just tickles me.

Ah well, guess you can't read my reply below in which I clear up this odd bit of logic on your part which confuses concreteness with metaphor.

Damn, I didn't know "attacks" had to be cited. I'll be sure to pull some out of my ear next time. Don't know how my points are "right-wing" since I am arguing from the POV of someone more progressive than Dean. :shrug:

Oh um, can you prove I have ever done what you have down for D.? How I have ever misrepresented his positions or statements? I may loathe the sonofabitch, but I have never lied about him or anything he has said.

[blm]

69. Well, he's running as a populist. That's fraudulent since

he just spent all his years in governance as a compromising centrist who often aligned with the Republicans and AGAINST the progressives and populist Democrats in Vermont.

[TLM]

132. Which is why the people of vermont, one of the most liberal states

in the US, re-elected Dean 5 times in a row.

[SahaleArm]

172. VT has a Republican governor.

I guess liberals don't outnumber conservatives in VT.

[CTLawGuy]

183. so does Mass.

and Mass. is one of the most liberal states in the Union. In 2002 because of the White Flag Dems brilliant strategy of "vote for the war" democrats were trounced everywhere. Repugs were excited to turn out more than dems and they decided most of the races. Just becuase Doug Racine couldnt beat Jim Douglass, doesn't mean VT is mostly conservative.. they also reelected Bernie Sanders.

[mitchtv]

81. I'm not a dean -ee, and I think you are bashing

the choice of language-fradulant governor says it all . I an a Democrat and personally , I like them all, I resent so called liberals attacking my candidates. Try saying something good about your choice ,but writing a playbook for the Pukes is just plain Dumb. What'll you do if he gets the nod? stay home?

[Zomby Woof]

116. lol

No, I'll vote for him (possibly - hey, maybe I will write someone in), but be real obnoxious about until I do. No one is going to make me "get in line" just because I don't like Dean.

I am a Democrat too, and I reserve the right to slam, tear, rip, shred, and otherwise pin to the mat any of them I think is bad for the party. Groupthink isn't desirable nor healthy for a free society. If you want to call it bashing, you feel free. I will keep doing whatever "bashing" is.

I can't say anything good about my choice because I am undecided. I am undecided because I think this is the weakest field of Dems to run since 1988. Some of them have good qualities, and the occasional bone to throw us, but ehhhh... mediocrity!

The Republicans will learn nothing from me for their "play book" (as if one exists), being that they have horrible reading comprehension skills and no sense of humor.

Now, what was your point again? :shrug:

[REP]

145. May I Suggest a Candidate for You to Support?

There's one particularly pernicious one who would be just terrible as the noiminee and god forbod, prez whom I love to kick, even though he hasn't got a snowball's chance. Pleeeeeeeze? I've got some good ones I've been looking for a chance to use!

[Cha]

93. Yes, you are a Dean basher because it's just

your opinion.

[Zomby Woof]

118. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Um, yes, it was my opinion. I post opinions on DU, and so do you. So do thousands of others. Occasionally some of us post facts, and others get things wrong. Some people lie or distort. But yes, you are correct in this case - I was stating an opinion.

[Skwmom]

65. We have millions that support Bush.

Perception is everything in this country and it rarely has anything to do with reality.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

90. Dean is only "fraudulent"

in your opinion which I am happy to report does not make it so.

[Zomby Woof]

121. so your opinion has more validity?

So you say he is a great and wonderful and sweet and brilliant and handsome and deep and passionate and heartfelt swell guy. So when you state that opinion, it does make it so? :shrug:

[ACPS65]

57. He's not much of a "cult leader" in the south, is he?

That's for sure.

[Jacobin]

60. we'll see about that......

[Rose Siding]

58. Have you ever been to a protest?

Is it "cult like" to join "this is what democracy looks like"?

Or "no more war"?

This is new stuff for the mainstream media. They'll grow into it. Anyone close to Washington power must be positively salivating at the enthusiasm and the willingness to get involved that Dean and his campaign are generating.

[Zomby Woof]

62. yes I have

The chants are spontaneous and originate from within the groups of people. It is exhilirating. But for Dean? He led his chant with all the fervor of Berlin in 1933.

[w4rma]

72. Kinda like your support for your candidate, eh, ZombyWoof?

Bull.

[Zomby Woof]

79. I am undecided

So WHICH candidate did you have in mind for my mind? :D

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

115. Nader never bothered me

I have never once slammed Nader on here, and never held him responsible for the 2000 debacle. Please be careful with unfounded accusations.

As for me being a closet Bush supporter, well, I am at a loss. I didn't know being against Dean made one support Bush. That is a new dichotomy to me.

[prolesunited]

73. So, now Dean is some sort of new Hitler?!?!

Okey dokey :eyes:

I normally don't post in candidate threads, but don't you think this is a tad over the top?

[RetroLounge]

102. You are officially the debate loser

for pulling out the nazi card.

Now go back to the lounge and play with your coffee, you are obviously over your head.

[Zomby Woof]

117. the tired Godwin's Law thing?

I don't play by those silly rules. I don't in any literal or concrete sense think Dean is a nazi or fascist, but he and his followers still send out the mobthink mentality and the angry vibes. I like being provocative and obnoxious.

As for the "debate", I'd hardly call this whole go-round one of those. I have neither won nor lost anything, lol. This isn't a "win/lose" argument. It is merely one set of viewpoints clashing against the other. Grievances and missives get aired, and then we all go to bed for the night.

Unless of course, I am up all night because I was drinking my coffee in the Lounge. ;-)

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zomby Woof]

138. didn't you put me on ignore?

Or is it one of those occasional ignores that comes and goes? :shrug:

[Cha]

94. Spot on! We were a Giant Cult on Feb 15, 2003

in NEW YORK CITY! Chanting...Loud and Strong Together! For Hours!

[bearfartinthewoods]

140. there is a difference

when a chant is people powered...from the bottom up...it's one thing.

when the leader stands there, red faced and yelling, it's a totally different image.

[rocktivity]

63. A cult leader would be more likely to chant "I have the power!"

I just hope the Bush camp realizes that they're in no position to accuse anyone of being a cult leader. I don't think Georgie COULD say a line more than twice if he wanted to!


rocknation

[oxymoron]

71. I just remember thinking at the time...

that it was overkill and made him appear foolish.

[Cha]

99. Too bad you don't get it. n/t

[paulk]

101. you have just made Mr. Klien's argument

I guess if you don't "get it" you can't be part of the cult?

[TLM]

135. Congratulations….

You just won a one-way ticket to my ignore file for your:

A: disgusting bashing of Dean supporters as cult members.
B: attacks on Dean sans links, full quotes, context, or source citations.
C: rehashing of right-wing talking points to bash Dean.
D: deliberate misrepresentation of Dean’s statements or positions.
E: all of the above.

[paulk]

168. I don't get it...

I haven't broken through.
The true light of understanding hasn't penetrated my ignorance.
I haven't evolved.

youhavethepoweryouhavethepoweryouhavethepoweryouhavethepoweryouhavethe

You think Joe Klien, who is no right winger, is the first pundit to note the obsessive, almost religious undertones to the Dean campaign?

And pointing out the obvious isn't bashing, unless you're one of the hypersensitive true believers who take any criticism of their annointed as sacralige.


As the tent show revival aspect of the Dean campaign comes into public view, rest assured you will see more reporting like this.

[oxymoron]

128. What's there to get?

He did look foolish. It was overkill. Just my opinion, go ahead and flame away.

[catzies]

75. On the anniversary of the Jonestown Massacre. 25 years ago today

How disgusting.

[Cleita]

77. Whoever is the front runner is going to be skewered

and barbequed by the media, the right wing's propaganda machine.

[slinkerwink]

82. sad, but true....

Clark's getting a taste of this also.

[RetroLounge]

104. Yes, and apparently by their unwitting allies here on DU.

eating our own, typical...

[tom_paine]

80. Oh, that librul media

They'll say anything to help out those Democratic candidates, won't they?

:puke: :puke: :puke:

==================================

I'm so old I remember when Amerika had a Free Press.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

89. so do Clark supporters....

:shrug:

[Cha]

96. You are so wrong and what's more

you obviously don't know what a "movement" is all about. And that's what it's going to take to get bush out.

Even Jimmy Carter ..bless his heart..said on some show that he thought bush was going to get another term. Ugh!

[RetroLounge]

105. Okay, so now we are moonies.

first we were minions, then hitler followers, now moonies.

Sounds like you've been hanging out with Coulter.

You should be proud.

[TLM]

136. Congratulations….

You just won a one-way ticket to my ignore file for your:

A: disgusting bashing of Dean supporters as cult members.
B: attacks on Dean sans links, full quotes, context, or source citations.
C: rehashing of right-wing talking points to bash Dean.
D: deliberate misrepresentation of Dean’s statements or positions.
E: all of the above.

[tlb]

142. Comments from Alexandra Pelosi , Nancy's daughter.

" Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean: "He's definitely hot right now. It's like his supporters are a cult. At the Jefferson and Jackson dinner in Des Moines last weekend, it was tons of screaming kids, but they weren't from Iowa. They'd been bused in from across the Midwest, and they didn't clap for anyone else - only Dean. Afterward, there was a party at the Fort Des Moines and they acted out Dean's stump speech, waving their arms and mouthing the words, like it was 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show.' Dean was there, and at first he was smiling, but after a while he looked pretty freaked out. You have to remember that the 70-something Iowa voter is not into the screaming kids." ?



Right wing talking points ? I am SO tired of that lame boogyman excuse for suppression of a realistic look at Dean. I am no fan of the DLC, but it was they, not Rove, who began the " Dean is too leftist" buzz. And it was Dennis Kucinich who accurately pointed out Dean's social security flip flop.

The question was not these points though, it was the creepy nature of the Dean drogies. Nothing turns me off Dean more strongly then the glassy-eyed attitude of many in his camp. Obviously one can't tar all Dean followers with that broad brush, but there is clealry enough who fit that description to raise disturbing doubts about the candidate. And as Pelosi illustrates, you don't have to be RNC to see or say it.

Hissyfits when someone says something not to your liking about Dean does little to dispel that view I might add.

[chimpymustgo]

161. tlb, thanks for posting the Dean "Rocky Horror Picture Show" party

Do you have a link? Perhaps you could post that for a separate discussion. Unfortunately, the glassy eyed would not see themselves in it - that is the nature of the beast.

[tlb]

169. Omission of the link was carelessness.

Sorry , I guess I was in too big a rush there. Another thread has by now begun linking to the full article.

[incapsulated]

84. Man, I wish I had seen this...

I keep missing it. I miss everything. Wah! :cry:

[ArtieBoy]

85. Oh, no.

Yes, a Right wing nut friend of mine says, "Dean's people follow him around like a bunch of Grateful Dead zombies." Sorry if Democrats found someone to be a little excited about.

Maybe he's waffled, maybe he's not as Left as some would like. But he's still a Democrat, not a Bush, and he's been forthright in calling out the * administration. I'll take what I can get these days.

[Dr Fate]

86. the "Liberal Media" is one of Rush's Narcotics-induced halucinations

!!!

[Cha]

97. If Deaniacs are "cult members" ...

what are the "ditto heads"?

[Dr Fate]

103. Dead-heads, apparently- except it's hard-narcotics instead of weed!!

!!!

[kodi]

112. marked it on my calender, the day democracy became a cult

this fucking press is incredible. its gotten to the point where they are so ham-handed in their attempts to set the narrative.

where are the adults?

[TLM]

119. This is nothing new....

Several media whores have parroted the right wing talking points attacking Dean... as have Dean Bashers here.

The only thing that has changed is the meme... first he was a far leftist activist and not the heart of the democratic party... then he was an angry hot head... then he had peaked too soon and couldn't win the general... then after all those failed to stick they started getting desperate, first he's against SS and medicare... then he's anti-black... now he's a cult leader.

Funny how at the start you can see them saying "dean who" and then saying "Dean just can't win the support to beat Bush." And now Dean has so much support the are calling him a cult leader.


Now watch the Dean bashers ignore this and continue to claim there is a VRWC pushing Dean in the media.

[Zomby Woof]

134. Dean"bashers" are not some monolithic entity

Truly, I have made no claim about a VRWC pushing Dean in the media. If others have, I would be happy to disagree with them too.

My only real beef with your post is that very tired cliche about "memes". Meme this and meme that. It is pretentious and is actually just a fancy way of dismissing criticism of Dean by turning the quotes against him on the opposition.

When "cult" metaphors are brought up, that is all they are - metaphors. No one here thinks Dean is really going to make you drink the grape Kool-Aid. No one.

The metaphors (and accompanying snarkiness) are brought about by the emotionally charged hardcore support of Dean and the thin-skinned paranoia and hostile reactions to outsiders (like calling us "bashers" and aiding the RW talking points) when we speak up against him. Real cult devotees (and no, Dean supporters aren't really cultists I will remind you again) engage in parallel behavior, albeit a bit more strenuously. Face it, the reactionary hostility met by anyone who just merely QUESTIONS Dean invites unflattering comparisons, and even *gasp* makes some of us invoke nasty metaphors about fascism and mobthink.

Politics has long been bloody and nasty. This is nothing new under the sun, and shall too pass (Sorry, had to throw in my own tired cliches, just to be um, fair and balanced.)

[madfloridian]

139. Actually, that is not really fair.

"My only real beef with your post is that very tired cliche about "memes". Meme this and meme that. It is pretentious and is actually just a fancy way of dismissing criticism of Dean by turning the quotes against him on the opposition...."

The point was made. What should we do? You say don't dismiss criticism of Dean. Yet if we try to clarify people jump in and say not enough....you are excusing him....and so on.

If we defend, it is not enough. If we explain it is not enough. It is insulting to be told we are cult followers. You may not have meant it, but many do.

The people who support Dean are as a rule pretty nice people who try to stand up for him. Yet that just brings rage.

I don't TLM's post was pretentious. I do believe people here do use memes or new bytes all the time. Not just against Dean.

Dean being a cult leader is a meme, Dean followers being simplistic is a meme, Dean not being electable is one as well.... so what is one to do. I don't know what else to call them.

There are some people who have it down to an art form. If I say it, though, my post gets deleted.

SNIP.."Real cult devotees (and no, Dean supporters aren't really cultists I will remind you again) engage in parallel behavior, albeit a bit more strenuously. Face it, the reactionary hostility met by anyone who just merely QUESTIONS Dean invites unflattering comparisons, and even *gasp* makes some of us invoke nasty metaphors about fascism and mobthink....."

Disagree. If we try to explain or defend, the same ones jump in and say it is not good enough. They say all Deanies do is excuse him. It is repeated over and over.

I was called simplistic one day by someone I always respected. That is quite laughable. We have raised 5 kids who are educated and smart, and we have had lots of tragedies. We have seen a lot of life. I am most definitely not simplistic. There is just no excuse for what is going on here. I like Dean because he gives hope. I like his outrage. I feel the same.

To the two Dean supporters who boast and brag over everything in a taunting way, I urge you to stop. To the supporters of other candidates who are trying to bring Dean down....remember it is your party you are hurting.

Dean is no cult figure. I am not especially into the power thing, myself, but it does reach a certain demographic. The flag thing is getting ridiculous. If we post a statement about his Medicare speeches and efforts, someone jumps in to insult us about that. It is just too much sometimes.

I like Clark and Kerry tremendously. I always have. I have never insulted their supporters. But there are some of them who do not put forth a good image on here for their candidate. I tend to associate the candidate with the ones who so attack others.

[CWebster]

150. Your attacks are spewing venom without substance

and most of it attacking Dean supporters with alot of angry rhetoric.

But you haven't said anything. Not one point. You haven't questioned Dean at all, just thrown around attack buzzwords.

From the start we have heard that Dean was a fringe leftist, or DLC, or a waffler, or too angry, or a racist, or a Newt follower, or not a faithful partisan of Israel, or a pacifist, or...yet it surprises people that he still has the support of Progressives to Conservatives who have a very realistic view of his pluses and minuses from their perspective. Dean has never hidden who he is or promised more to curry favor. That is why I like him. Will there be times I disagree with him? Most probably - most assuredly, but I can say that because I am blinded by the so-called stars in my eyes.

[JNelson6563]

141. What a contrast!

Bush: "I have the power, it's all mine, who cares what you think?"

Dean: "YOU have the power! YOU have the power!"

Um, I think I'll take the Dean guy.

Julie

[CWebster]

146. It is no mystery that Dean bashers use Right-wing tactics.

Bush is the frontman for neo-cons and fundamentalists, not so much for traditional conservatives. If Clark ran as a moderate Republican, chances are many Clark supporters would vote Republican, because even on the conservative side they would prefer a choice to Bush. Unfortunately, the struggle is completely within the Democratic party to make that decision, and the conflict tears at the fabric of party identity. Triangulation strategy was a short term fix that ultimately shifted the entire body politic to the Right, but caused party identity to lose focus and meaning. The issue now is do we strengthen party identity and purpose from the ground up, with significant participation of the base, or do revert to outmoded and failing establishment directives that still bank on converting to the Republican model to widen its net while taking the base for granted?

Personally I would prefer that the Democratic party return to it's roots and beef up it's identity to lure the discourse away from the radical neo-con scale of where the middle lies. In that case Clark would be at home on the Right again, and Dean would be recognised as a fairly conservative Democrat - instead of the flaming populist cult radical he now is viewed as.

It is just another dangerous indication of how far off kilter the current status quo has become.

[gristy]

147. I think Dean's gonna have to tone it down.

It's beginning to not play in Peoria.

[tlb]

149. Dean is riding the tiger, he may not be ABLE to tone it down.

He relies on the Dean moonies. If they think he is deviating from the " true faith" they can turn on him as strongly as they support him now.

He could never have gotten so far so fast without them, but that is a two-edged sword.

[CWebster]

152. It is a terrible terrible thing to see energized and enthusiastic

Democrats, isn't it? They should know their place by now and get back under that rock! I thought they learned their lesson after the Wellstone memorial, that it is not their place to speak up.


That is why spin is so easy, it is so easy to have people so mindlessly adopt it without thinking.

[Larkspur]

181. Good retort, CWebster!

The only Dems who are afraid of energized Democrats and Dean supporters are those who can't generate the same kind of excitement from their supporters as Dean has.

[CWebster]

151. Shut up would be even better, right.?

What should Democrats be afraid to say it loud I am democrat and I am proud, instead of cowering back to their proper place, cheering on republican in national unity.

There is a groundswell of people out there, out of work, their pensions gone, their jobs gone, their kids can't afford college, with no medical insurance for their families, and they are in Peoria too.

[mmonk]

156. there's no cult

like the Bush cult.

[madfloridian]

167. That cult thing came from Pelosi's daughter.

They are Gephardt supporters, Mom and daughter, I believe. Nancy got Dean for trying to be moderate in the IP issue, daughter calls him a cult. That is how they manage us.

[blm]

170. If many Dems even see Dean like that

what about the rest of the American people? Will it push even those half listening to vote FOR Bush?

Ugh....

[RetroLounge]

173. Right, the REST of America thinks that.

But I thought no one had heard of the candidates yet?

Oh, you mean the rest of America outside of the Dean Bash Brigade?

Well, if anyone can push them toward bush*, it'll be Dean Bashing Dems like those represented here.

[polpilot]

180. They'll be as successful as Kerry supporters have been.

Dean '04....

[Larkspur]

174. Thomas Jefferson was a cult leader also

"I have sworn upon the altar of God , eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man ." – Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the United States

And the Declaration of Independence has a rhythmn to it that is hypnotic and inspires rebellion against tyranny.

And you could say that our Founding Fathers were cult leaders too. Their cult -- Democracy!

The "First Great Awakening" started in the late 17th and early 18th centuries and was a battle against conservative clerical authority.

Throughout the colonies, conservative and moderate clergymen questioned the emotionalism of evangelicals and charged that disorder and discord attended the revivals. They took great exception to "itinerants," ministers who, like Whitefield, traveled from one community to another, preaching and all too often criticizing the local clergy. And they took still greater exception when some white women and African Americans shed their subordinate social status long enough to exhort religious gatherings. Evangelical preachers and converts rejoined by lambasting their opponents as cold, uninspiring, and lacking in piety and grace. Battles raged within congregations and whole denominations over this challenge to clerical authority as well as the evangelical approach to conversion from "the heart" rather than "the head."

Dean's Campaign is a "Cult of Hope" and is patterned after the "Second Great Awakening," a religious revival begun in New England in the 19th Century.

Regarding the 19th Century "Second Great Awakening",

Protestantism has always contained an important evangelical strain, but it was in the nineteenth century that a particular style of evangelicalism became the dominant form of spiritual expression. What above all else characterized this evangelicalism was its dynamism, the pervasive sense of activist energy it released.

What Howard Dean is trying to do is revive our democracy, which has been gradually hardening into a Totalitarian state over the last 30 years.


Dean is a Congregationalist and that branch of Protestantism participated in the First Great Awakening

The largest single group of churchgoing Americans remained within the Congregationalist and Presbyterian denominations, but they divided internally between advocates and opponents of the Awakening, known respectively as "New Lights" and "Old Lights."

Links to The Great Awakening
The First Great Awakening http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/grawaken.htm

Evangelicalism, Revivalism, and the Second Great Awakening http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/nevanrev.htm

[chimpymustgo]

175. So you confess: it IS a religion.

Okey freaking dokey. That's what I thought.

[Larkspur]

177. If you call Thomas Jefferson's "Declaration of Independence" the Bible

than I'll call Dean's Campaign a religion, because Dean's goal is to awaken the American Revolutionary spirit within us all.

And since Jefferson despised organized religion, he'd be pissed if you referred to his Declaration as the Bible.

What I was saying was that Dean is using the pattern and rythmns of revivalism to resusitate our faith in our nation's democratic ideals, and what is wrong with that?

The reason that Dean doesn't point to himself when he says "You have the power!" is because this movement he ignited will last long after he has served 2 terms as President. This movement is about us reclaiming our democracy from narrow minded monied interests. The affects of the American Revolution lasted long after the Founding Fathers died and remnents of the American Revolution, like Jefferson's Declaration, still inspire people today who are suffering from tyranny in other lands to break the chains that bind them.

[chimpymustgo]

182. Message pre-deleted.

Look, I'm happy for you. Really, I am.

[Scott Lee]

176. Looks like some of the GOP tinfoil hatters have joined the Dems

and the new object of their fear is...

HOWARD DEAN een een een een een...

Look into my eyes. Become one with The Dean. The DEAN... THE DEEEEEAAANNN!!

[mzmolly]

178. Dean is great at using 'talking points' just like the pubbies...

He he he he he.

Proud member of the "Dean Cult" here ...