Why Clark's been stumbling so far....

[slinkerwink]

This is from Matt S., the publisher of the Clark Tribune on the web in a post in http://www.dailykos.com

The other key piece of the story is here:
Between October and November, for example, Clark's monthly meetings set up by a free Web site called Meetup.com -- which have been a key asset of the Dean campaign -- dropped from 343 to 205 nationwide, a sign the campaign was not helping to organize the gatherings. Dean's meetings, meanwhile, reached 818 last month.

The campaign isn't focusing on the importance of its grassroots as a base for political activity, and isn't catalyzing the tremendous amount of goodwill (and $$$) the draft movement brought to Clark.

Instead, the pathetic remnants of the draft people who sacrificed their integrity to get into the campaign are reduced to stuff like this. Dean's movement sees its supporters as the campaign, the Clark movement sees its supporters as a collective ATM. This is because the battle for the soul of the party IS ideological and was waged in the Clark movement. The reactionary Clintonites won the battle for Clark, so you're seeing the slagfest continue. It will continue so long as the reactionaries control the reigns of the campaign.

Essentially, from what I saw and from the pattern of how they act, the Clintonites seem to be elitists, while the Dean people just aren't. And from what I understand, you just can't build a movement of progressives if the top of the structure believes that the bottom of the structure exists to get them jobs in the White House.

Clark knows this, but his strategy is set and he can't change his team at this point. Unfortunately for Clark and the Democratic Party, the 'shake-up' involves a reshuffling of the elitists, not a slagging of the whole culture of defensive incompetence. Josh Marshall, blogger and reporter extraordinaire and quasi-elitist insider himself, doesn't see it because he doesn't realize that this is not a contest of personalities but of deep ideological divisions and methods. On the one side is Stirling Newberry and Ellen Nagler and the open-source method, those who advocate for leadership generation and the ability to enlarge space in politics; on the other are the Clintonites and draftniks (and their buddies) who believe that a political campaign and candidate exist to allow them to retain and enlarge their ability to govern, moving from the insider-ism of the Democratic Party to the insider-ism of a White House dominated by elitist liberalism.

The Sklar/Segal/Fabiani/Lehane fracas is a sideshow; the real story is the fraying of Clark's power, his supporters. For while Dean is a weak candidate, he knows this, and points to his movement as the message. 'I am not the President, I will just occupy the office', says Dean, and that makes sense, because no one man is greater than America. Clark, spectacular though he may be, is making the fundamental claim that the office of the Presidency equals Clark, and vice versa. During the draft, Clark spoke of public service and leadership, suggesting that in fact he just wanted to serve and be a caretaker for the office of the Presidency, a moral leader instead of an opportunist seeking a trophy. Dean is saying this too.

But the Clark campaign has moved away from that idea, and now Clark just wants to be the President; he doesn't seem to want to lead his movement anymore, or his America; he just wants to be inaugurated. This is really his campaign's doing, of course, but it's not like he can avoid responsibility for the uber-insider disease. I publish the Clark Tribune, a newsletter on the Clark movement, and my email flow suggests that the movement isn't doing anything anymore, they are just angry and defensive about Dean, Bush, Kerry, whatever. I can see this on the local level; there is no excitement anymore, people are just going through the motions. You can expect to see this post flamed, but the numbers don't lie. The number of Meetup supporters is going up, the number of Meetups is going down. That's bad , because it means that the core of the Clark movement isn't engaged anymore. The movement is rotten and dying, with the most obvious sign being that supporters just aren't meeting or planning stuff.

A common response is that the draft people projected onto Clark, and this is just how you have to do politics to win. Perhaps. I might disagree with you on the level of competence of the Clintonites, but that's not a debate we could settle now. The reality, though, is that the draft people just executed better because their model worked, whereas the model of the centralized campaign as an aggregation of elite interests doesn't work anymore. The Dean 'magic' isn't magic, but is really a testament to how pathetic the Democratic Party really is at this point. They don't only not execute, they can't even recognize good execution when they see it. Positioning Clark as the 'anti-Dean' and going through the South is now their only option, but you can sure as hell bet that the flag-burning amendment didn't get Clark any new supporters, and made a lot of his old ones ask for their money back.

This is not just a fight over methods, this is a fight over the soul of our country. We are a country divided into two teams, and they aren't Republican or Democrats. On the one side are the bullies like Bush, Fox News and the toadies like Kerry, Lehane, the New York Times, and Lieberman; on the other are fighters like Howard Dean, John McCain, Daily Kos, Atrios, and Al Franken. There is no common ground, because the bully-toadies are operating in bad faith and don't understand the concept of common ground. The Iraq vote was the ultimate compromise, and was allowed because the 'Democrats' have forgotten that compromise carries a cost. The Draft Clarkies in Little Rock forgot this too, if they ever knew it; the insiders of the campaign are just bullies and/or toadies. All they know how to do well is bludgeon and attack their enemies. Sound familiar? It should. It's George Bush, writ small and liberal-ish. Given the choice between voting for a liberal elitist who will give you a tax cut and pretends to like the poor and a conservative elitist who will give you a bigger tax cut and asks you to be rich like him, you'd choose the conservative. The key to the Democratic resurgence is not to replicate the Republican structure of elitism, but to build the progressive structure of trust and community, and point out that George Bush is running against the American people. You're not going to do that by running like George Bush, only promising better policies and a fairer tax system.

So maybe there's been a shake-up in the Clark campaign. Great. You've replaced hack number five with hack number six, who might be better and might be worse, but who's still a hack. My heart is heavy with this story, because the weakness of Dean is so clear and the potential of Clark is so vast, and the need to win an election has never been so great.

by MattS on Mon Nov 17th, 2003 at 17:49:03 UTC

[slinkerwink]

1. :kick:

:kick:

[Bread and Circus]

2. Matt Stoller is the "meme" guy....

Like Stirling, he is all a twitter about being
left out of the campaign. I think a lot of those
who didn't get key positions in the campaign bitch and moan
because it's not being the "way they would do it".

Frankly, there are many reasons why Clark's campaign had
a rough start. The biggest being that he had to put a campaign
together in weeks to match what the other's have had over a
year to do. Not only that, he has done it under bright lights.

Does any remember that Dean lost a campaign manager? That's
because it happened when no one was looking.

Matt and Stirling give themselves too much credit and Clark
not enough. I've been in "the movement" since nearly the
beginning and Clark is doing just fine in my book.

What can you expect more from him? Maybe he will win and
maybe he won't, that's up to the people of the party to decide.

Furthermore, when Clark's campaign launched we had 12,000 signed
up for meetups. Now we have over 40,000. It depends on how
you parse the numbers and what you look at.

If you take a bird's eye view, Clark is doing well both with
the grassroots and the insiders (especially for a first-timer).

[slinkerwink]

4. yes, the number of meet-up supporters have doubled, but the number of

meet-up locations have dropped which suggests that the Clark campaign is doing a poor job of keeping up with the meet-ups.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. So...

the number of meetup locations is more important than the number of people at those meetups?

"It does not compute."

[slinkerwink]

9. because it shows less activity on part of the meet-up supporters to

organize.....

[Renew Deal]

16. I went to a Dean meetup a couple weeks ago.

On LI. There were 8 people there. 1 has been involved with the campaign in NY. I challenge you to go to a Clark meetup. See what they are up to. It's more than whining about how much Bush sucks.

[returnable]

25. There are fewer meetups because...

...the Clark campaign has gotten MORE organized at the grassroots level.

Instead of scattered, multiple meetups across a single city or region, the meetups are consolidating.

That's a GOOD thing.

Duh. :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

35. any proof of this?

Dean has 815 meet-up organizations with 140,000 members compared to Clark's 205 meet-up organizations with 40,000 members.......

[returnable]

45. Proof?

How about the dramatic increase in Clark supporters? Where do you think all those people are going?

It's obvious you wanna make this a pissing contest between Dean's meetup numbers and Clark's meetup numbers.

Whatever :eyes:

The fact is, Clark's campaign is building, not "stumbling".

And that's what matters.

[_NorCal_D_]

48. Keep in mind

that Clark has only been in the race for roughly a month and a half, while Dean has been campaigning for a solid year. It's only natural that Dean would have more meet-up members.

[SahaleArm]

37. Running off-cycle

The Clark campaign in most states is unofficial but is running organizational meetings more often (than meetup). This campaign is about getting rid of chimp and replacing him with a proven, great leader.

[joshan361]

12. awww sorry to disappoint you Clark isnt doing bad

LOL, i know from the stand point of a Dean supporter, seeing Clark's campaign starting to get into a stride can be a lil overwhelming.

look at it this way, come Febuary to March, clark might consider Dean for VP. so dont fret jus yet.

[slinkerwink]

14. a stride?

What's the stride when Clark is polling at 4% in NH?

[Renew Deal]

20. And 15-17% nationally?

from 10-12.

[SahaleArm]

21. That's 17% and climbing in SC.

Two months until the primary, you might want to stop counting your chickens.

[slinkerwink]

24. Dean's polling second in North Carolina so.....the meme that Dean isn't

doing well in the South is crapshoot. Hey, didn't Clark say that NH was also important, so why are you all of a sudden touting Clark's support in the South as being more important than NH? Are you writing off NH?

[Renew Deal]

27. I think you are in for a surprise in NH.

Too bad that you will have to wait and see.

[slinkerwink]

31. yeah, we'll see what happens in NH after Dean wins it to see what

Clark is going to do ;-)

[SahaleArm]

39. delete *nm*

Oops *nm*

[SahaleArm]

51. NC polling is meaningless until someone actually campaigns there.

SC is on Feb-3rd, NC is after super tuesday. Dean hasn't even setup shop in SC but needs to if he wants some delegates. Do you just make stuff up; where in my post did I say Dean had no chance in the south? Deanies are getting way too sensitive.

[Skwmom]

18. We had our meet-up but the system showed it as cancelled.

The system is terrible. We are only going to use it in the future to contact any new people that sign up. We like to have our meetings at a time and place not designated by that crappy system.

[Kahuna]

74. I had a problem with meetup too. I couldn't make this..

month's meeting. I let the webmaster know about the problem but nothing was really done about it in time.

[MariaS]

33. Meet up Problems

I have heard on the clark yahoo boards over and over people complaining of problems with meetup whether it be venues or customer assistance. Many have stated that they would set up meetings outside of meetup and leave meetup for new supporters. My guess would be that the reason the numbers for meetup participants has declined is the more dedicated and seasoned supports are breaking away from the disorganization of meetup.

Maria

[dfong63]

67. had to?

Frankly, there are many reasons why Clark's campaign had
a rough start. The biggest being that he had to put a campaign
together in weeks to match what the other's have had over a
year to do.

so for months while the smart candidates were putting together their organizations, Clark wasted time flirting with the press, staring at his navel trying to decide whether to say he's a democrat. and now his supporters use this "late entry" as an excuse. i remember during those early months, they assured us that Clark the great leader was preparing an awesome glitch-free campaign from day one.

Not only that, he has done it under bright lights.

all the candidates are working under bright lights.

[Renew Deal]

3. You whine when someone says something

remotely negative about Dean, but you don't mind posting anything remotely negative about Clark. Interesting. So now you take a blog entry from a some random unhappy guy. We have been through this before. The Clark campaign is filled with draft people. I was in NH last week. A few of the people there were draft people I met in TN. Part of Clark's staff in AR is from the draft. The NH for Clark draft woman (Susan Putney) is stuill running a campaign office for Clark. I don't know why every remotely negative Clark post needs to be GD front page news. There is a whole thread here for people today of people that have left Dean. We can have this for any candidate.

[chimpymustgo]

8. "Dean is a weak candidate, he knows this..."

"...and points to his movement as the message. 'I am not the President, I will just occupy the office', says Dean, and that makes sense..."

No, that doesn't make sense. I would like to vote for a President, not a campaign. But heis right about Dean being a weak candidate. At least Dean knows it.

[Zomby Woof]

15. I was wondering about that myself

I though "bashing" was bad. Who knew? :shrug:

[xultar]

23. Ya CLARK SUX, don't attack DEAN! That's what I'm seeing but

that's o.k. Dean is a great candidate. I'm not going to attack him because there's nothing to attack about.

[xultar]

28. YUP CLARK SUX don't ATTACK DEAN!

You're right. I'm not going to attack Dean. I'm a Clarkie but if Clark does not win the nomination I will Support Dean just as much.

There's not a thread attack on CLARK that will ever provoke me to attack DEAN.

[democratreformed]

34. You go!

But, isn't it really hard sometimes?

[xultar]

55. Nope, cuz since he is a Liberal alot of his positions are the same

as mine.

I refuse to let the candidate's supporters change how I feel about the candidate. Because I'll be dealing with the President after the electio not his supporters. That makes things CRYSTAL! Keep your focus on the candidate.

[jumptheshadow]

60. But if you notice

The Clark attacks waned after Dean's union endorsements. Now they are a dime a dozen after his strong showing on Meet the Press. It must mean that somebody's concerned.

[progressiverealist]

5. whew... I thought the answer would be...

because he's not Dean

[joshan361]

7. This is too funny

Clark and his campaign are now on a full ROLL. and already this week started out great, first with him putting Russert in his place now with the slapping around of the FAUX News anchor. the best part is still to come. he will be on 60 Minutes Ii on Tuesday night and then on Late Night with David Letterman.

its all getting good :D.

[slinkerwink]

11. that "slapping around" of the faux news anchor was really

scary. I can't imagine Clark keeping his cool again---I can just see what Rove will make of that interview---he'll say "Clark's mentally unbalanced"

[joshan361]

19. perhaps your Dean slant popping thru?

i think most here would agree those creeps at FAUX had it coming a long time. wonder why Clark was the 1 to finally do it , hhmmmm , o yea he is the only candiate with guts.

well i guess war heros that have been shot multiple times understand better what is and isnt worth standing up for!

[slinkerwink]

26. so, new people seeing that interview wouldn't think badly of Clark?

It just came off as really really odd....

[Renew Deal]

32. So did Dean saying "bullshit" to a reporters question.

And that time Dean flipped on Russert. I will have to hide the children if he is elected. Your pathetic attempts at attacking Clark are becoming embarrassing.

[joshan361]

47. not so loud, they dont wanta hear that LOL

isnt jealousy the truest form of flattery? LOL

[Shakespeare]

10. I feel a Mark Twain moment coming on....

The reports of Clark's campaign's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[slinkerwink]

13. we'll see what happens in two weeks

but so far, Clark's organization isn't going off that well. Even Kerry is back in Iowa, looking to stake out a number two or number three spot. It's a pity that Clark isn't doing this. And in the latest poll in NH, Clark's support is now at 4% despite all the time that Clark's been spending in NH.

[SahaleArm]

30. Iowa - Lots of money, little gain

I hate to rehash why getting out of Iowa was a good move but the fact remains that unless you get 15%, you get no delegates. SC has the same number of delegates as Iowa and for Clark a better bang for the buck. NH is a tough sell but he'll separate from Edwards in the third spot. NH is Dean and Kerry's backyard, like SC is for Clark and Edwards.

[Shakespeare]

43. ofergodsakes...

I try to inject a little levity into this thread...my mistake...

:eyes:

[OKNancy]

58. A little schooling for you dear

The old days where Iowa and New Hampshire are gone. People that are keen on politics know this. Too bad some pundits and observers haven't caught on yet.

The glow from a win in Iowa/ New Hampshire will last less than a week. The election will be covered on Wednesday, and maybe THursday and then it will be on to the Feb. 3rd states.

Here are the delegates available
Iowa 64
New Hampshire 33

That's 97

Feb. 3rd:
South Carolina 59
Missouri 105
New Mexico 39
Arizona 63
Oklahoma 60

That's is 326.

Now you figure it out.

[democratreformed]

17. As a former draftClark supporter,

but noone of any general importance (except a person who made joined my voice with many others), I can certainly say that I have been working very hard for General Clark in all areas that I know how.

I have attended a "day of service event", went to numerous meetups, campaigned "on the ground", and kept an active presence here on the net.

My personal opinion is that the campaign is having a hard time keeping up with demand. Kind of like when I want a particular candy bar (:)) but the store is out of them. I see that as a good thing as long as we (as a campaign) catch up with the demand.

Also, I have seen many great things happen in this campaign. I think it is just picking up steam. It's funny how we draw criticism when we go knocking at others' doors.

Oh yeah, and if you want to put in stock in national media reports, would that be the same media that expects us to believe that the economy is IMPROVING?

[slinkerwink]

22. so you're equating popular demand for candy bars into popular

support for Clark? :shrug:

[democratreformed]

29. That was

a little juvenile wasn't it? :)

[_NorCal_D_]

41. That candy wouldn't

happen to be a Clark Bar would it? B-)

[democratreformed]

42. Yep!

You got it :).

[quinnox]

36. This post sounds like sour grapes from a former

Clark supporter who wanted a place in the campaign.

Kerry had a similar experience recently when a couple staffers left and said nasty things about Kerry's campaign.

It seems it is hard to find good help in campaigns nowadays.

[slinkerwink]

38. and Kerry's organization is doing well?

hmmm? :shrug:

[59millionmorons]

40. Stumbled right to the top of the latest NBC/WSJ poll

You sound like Bill Press.

[slinkerwink]

44. and stumbled down in NH where Clark said he was committed to that

state....from a poll of 11% to 4%...

[59millionmorons]

49. OK

It was my understanding that he was skipping both Iowa and NH. He is now half heartily campaigning in NH. While his real goal are states like SC and CA,NY,PA etc. I dont put that much importance on those early states as you do. These are mostly white states. I am more interested in states that show real America. Clark is all but a shoe in to win SC and AR. These states are more important than IA and NH.

[kiahzero]

59. Clarks numbers in NH may go up soon

He just spent a large amount of cash on ads in NH ($1.1 mil).

As an aside, he's also on track to raise $12 million this quarter; more than everyone but Dean (this according to Washington Post story this Sunday... finally, some good press coverage).

[QC]

50. Tsongas, Dukakis, McCain and Buchanan all won NH.

So it's clearly the be-all and end-all of presidential campaigning :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

52. mmmm, but historically, a winner of both Iowa and NH has gone on to

win the nomination.

[59millionmorons]

56. theres the flaw

Gep will win IA and Dean will win NH. Now what?

[SahaleArm]

62. Lot's of tears.

For many it's Dean or Green.

[slinkerwink]

63. not yet----the Iowa primary is just a month and a half away

there's still time for Dean to overtake Gephardt---Gephardt has a slim lead on Dean that can easily vanish.

[returnable]

66. "can easily vanish"

It can just as easily increase :hi:

[_NorCal_D_]

54. LOL, good point!

B-)

[FrenchieCat]

53. Clark's campaign is a real campaign...

being built from the ground up and the ground down. He was drafted and his organization, as young as it is is proof. He said it was like building a ship as it's sails out to sea. Appropo analogy if you ask me.

Those who want to make him an establishment candidate have only to see that at 2 months in campaigning structural organization, Clark is doing better if not as well as Dean's was doing at it's same age. COmpare and contrast instead of comparing apples to oranges.....get back to us a another month, and then critic his campaign again. OK?

[_NorCal_D_]

46. I'll admit that this guy makes some decent points:

Instead, the pathetic remnants of the draft people who sacrificed their integrity to get into the campaign are reduced to stuff like this. Dean's movement sees its supporters as the campaign, the Clark movement sees its supporters as a collective ATM. This is because the battle for the soul of the party IS ideological and was waged in the Clark movement.

It's unfortunate that Clark has not been able to utilize his grass-roots support quite like Dean has. Nevertheless, Clark still has a loyal and active body of support, including myself. B-)

[jumptheshadow]

57. I can only speak from my experience

But even though there are fewer meetups in my area the RSVPs seem to have soared.

When I did attend a Clark meetup the hosts kept things as organized as possible given the fact there was an overflowing crowd and we were packed like sardines. I signed up for a volunteer list, have been entered into a database with my specialties, and have been called by more than one person in the campaign.

I would rather do direct work then spend a couple of hours in a bar. It's just a more effective use of my time.

[drfemoe]

61. Fox news

Does anyone have a link for Clark on Fox?

Someone on our Dean list wrote that Clark gave an impressive appearance.

Thanks for posting silverwink .. this isn't a 'bash'... as 'we' know what a bash looks like all too well.

[_NorCal_D_]

64. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=726001
B-)

[neuvocat]

65. What the hell's with all the Clark bashing?

This is just an op-ed piece.

You've been putting up posts like this time and time again. Do you see Dean bashing Clark? Do you see Clark bashing Dean? The answer to both is "No!"

I won't get involved with anymore candidate bashing because of the example set by both Dean and Clark. If you can't do that then Dean isn't the candidate you should be supporting.

Knock it off already.

[joshan361]

69. yes u are right!

she has been at this kind of thing for awhile now. there does seeem to be a since of unease with some Dean supports. they are viewing Clark and others a threat to him.

some polls are showing air being lost from the Dean balloon. while on the other hand Clarks campaign getting into its stride.

[mmonk]

68. Clark is stumbling because (or given the impression of stumbling)

due to misrepresentations, some which he has cleared up (but has been ignored), concentrating on strength states due to his late entry, he isn't getting positive press, and party activists want someone that looks like them (no general). All this makes any republican strategy against him early on, work because of party activists. If the public gets a good look at him and his messages, he'll be popular.

[Dr Fate]

70. personally, I've seen no stumbling at all-

I HAVE HEARD Bush/media SAY he is stumbling though...

After reading the reports of his interview/debate skills against Bush/media, I'd say he is going to gain even more support...

[Renew Deal]

71. He has stumbled right into the lead.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=727056

[Larkspur]

72. Dean is a strong candidate. That is why he's the frontrunner.

For while Dean is a weak candidate, he knows this, and points to his movement as the message. 'I am not the President, I will just occupy the office', says Dean

Embracing his supporters is not a sign of weakness by Dean. Have you ever heard of The Servant Leadership paradigm by Robert Greenleaf, former AT&T executive? Greenleaf's premise, written in the late 1960's, was that top-down hierarchal structures could not react to change quickly enough and in fact, resisted change even if it proved fatal to the group. This paradigm, based upon patriarchy's unquenchable hunger for absolute power, is more likely to cause apathy or rebellion from those "lower" on the totem poll. This hierarchal paradigm and imbalance of power leads to collapse and chaos.

Greenleaf proposed a new model of leadership based upon Jesus's concept of the servant leader. He wasn't taking the religious tract, just the concept Jesus had of creating a participatory community of leaders and followers. In Greenleaf's paradigm, followers can become leaders and vice versa, depending upon the situation. This model allowed the group to react to changes quicker and with more flexibility.

Hierarchies most often see change as a negative, especially change that disrupts the status quo of the power imbalance in favor of the elite. Participatory communities, or in current corporate lexicon, empowered teams, see change as a constant and as an opportunity to progress. This paradigm of participatory communities is what the Dean Campaign follows.

[Kahuna]

73. There was a problem with the meetup link. I couldn't even..

make it to the meetup this month because of the snafu.