Dean invented the internet

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

It's beginning.

In Al Franken's book, he shows how the rw media started the 'gore is a liar' campaign w/ Love Canal, Love Story and all of the rest and got the mainstream media to pick it up, while ignoring Bush's real lies (like taking credit for Bills he vetoed, misrepresenting who would benefit from the tax cut, etc)

They're going after Dean now and trying the same thing. Look for an endless media barrage over Dean's misstatements while Bush's treasonous false case for war will be nearly ignored next year. They're going to unleashe a negative blitz and try to define him as some kind of duplicitous, unstable nut (kind of a combo of Rove's strategies for Gore and McCain) Though Dean is my candidate, this is the one concern I have about him He isn't the most media-savvy at times and I wonder if he can deal with it. (that, and I also worry that the DLC folks will be less than lukewarm in backing him and may pull a closet Zell Miller on us)

your thoughts? and what's the best way to counter this coming onslaught?

-------------------
Novakula's hit piece:

'Everybody now is taking a closer look at Dr. Dean. That includes his opponents for the nomination, desperate to stop what has the appearance of a runaway train. It also guarantees that George W. Bush's crack opposition research team will more intensely scrutinize Dean's accumulated mass of public statements. What's more, the news media is bound to dig into and masticate what looks like a political feast.

Morsels that can cause Dean political indigestion are often hidden inside statements that attracted little attention at the time.'
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031113.shtml

[robsul82]

1. Easy.

I don't see Dean bending over like Gore did (and admit it, people - I love Al just as much as the next guy, but facts are facts). He will counter. He will attack. And he will win.

Later.

RJS

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

2. Agreed

Dean has shown repeatedly that he is a VERY aggressive candidate, and not to be fucked with. I want to see him up against Bush VERY badly. I think he can really put that asshole on the defensive in a big way.

[Brotherjohn]

12. I agree. I never ONCE saw Gore give a cogent defense...

...of himself against the relentless barrage of "liar! liar! liar!" that was directed at him.

Oh, I READ plenty of accounts of the internet thing, the Love Story thing, the Love Canal thing, that easily and quickly dismissed these attacks for the bull they were.

But I never once heard Gore defend himself on these counts. It would have been easy. Say, on Meet the Press:
"Tim, you know and I know, and Wolf Blitzer knew when he asked the question, that he was asking me about my legislative accomplishments and what distinguished me from my opponent, Bill Bradley, in that respect. As a legislator, I did indeed do more than anyone to foster the creation of the internet. And that's what I said, Tim. That "I took the initiative in the creation of the internet". My legislation and my writings of the time, in my opinion, did do more from a government standpoint to foster the creation of what we now know as the internet. Vincent Cerf, often described as the "father of the internet", has gone on record saying that he agrees with me. But I never said that I "invented" the internet. Anyone who misquotes me as saying so are the ones being dishonest."

See? Easy as pie.

Gore never stood up for himself. Clinton (and Carville) did in 1992. Dean will in 2004, if he gets the nod.

[corarose]

92. IS THAT WHY GORE WON THE ELECTION?

The illegal PIECE OF SHIT that calls itself the President is a FRAUD.

[poskonig]

3. That's why the DDF exists.

Plus the Dean campaign itself is extremely quick about giving hard counterattacks. Everybody makes mistakes; it is how we deal with them that counts.

[realFedUp]

5. I agree, there will be more of us calling them on any "mistatements"

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. They're going to define him as an unstable "napoleon"

I see the groundswell coming on that one.

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[robsul82]

6. And Dean's going to define Bush...

...as a lying warmonger to the American people. Won't be hard to do.

Later.

RJS

[Cha]

21. If Dean is "an unstable napoleon" then bush is..

the freakin' frothin' village idiot.

[KittyWampus]

7. There Are Some Discrepencies Between Dean's Record

As Governor and his current rhetoric. They are significant. That is the reality.

Too bad his supporters didn't do their homework before pledging their support.

They were angry about the IWR and and didn't use their dicrimination. All they heard was his CLAIM he wouldn't have voted for the IWR. Dean has manipulated many of these people.

That he would send out an email celebrating the One Year Anniversary of the IWR proves my point. He really has little else to offer in and of himself as a candidate except his CLAIM and his anger. He must keep milking the IWR even though time has marched on.

Edited out too much info.

[Duder]

14. I did my homework very early on...

...and it's looking like I picked the winner.
I even included some non-candidates such as Clark, with my criteria being to beat Bush.

Coming soon...

Dean versus Bush.

Take back America.

[KittyWampus]

22. That Is Very Admirable

and I salute you with a beer! :toast:

Good luck with your chosen candidate in the primaries!

I like the fact Dean is scrappy (term I use to describe him).

[TLM]

25. Same old crap, cryingshame....

"As Governor and his current rhetoric. They are significant. That is the reality."

Yet you choose not to list any specific examples of this, and instead just keep repeating this claim over and over and over.



"By the way, Dean made a major gaffe regarding Defence Policy when he said that Preemptions should NEVER be a part of AMerica's strategy."


Yet as ususal you provide no quote and no context. Why is that?

[sangh0]

44. Same old same old

For the second day in a row, TLM claims that no one will tell him about the flip-flops in response to posts that list some of the flip-flops

[TLM]

47. WHat flip flops were listed?

I saw claims there were flip flops, and claims Dean misunderstood pre-emptive, yet not one quote or specific example.


Why is so hard for you bashers to list anything specific?

[sangh0]

50. Dean has misunderstood pre-emptive

that's specific. It's not documented in that post, but it has been documented in numerous threads on DU.

Dean has also flip-flopped on Cuba sanctions, a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution, Medicare, Social Security, Affirmative Action, the death penalty, and more

[KittyWampus]

54. There Should Be An Unbiased Discussion On Those 2 Terms

I made a stupid mistake posting that.... and edited it out.

It ends up being important.... and all the Dem candidates should ideally use the 2 terms in their correct context and call out Junior and Co. for changing the meaning.

When the GOP starts calling the Iraq Invasion a Preemptive War... it would be great to hear our Candidates saying it was no such thing! Iraq had no WMD and was no immenent threat!

[sangh0]

56. I once started a thread on that very topic

I found out that 9 out of 10 DUers don't know and don't care about the difference.

[Forkboy]

57. If it's in numerous threads

you should have no problem finding a link.

If it's not documented in the post why did you jump on TLM by saying "TLM claims that no one will tell him about the flip-flops in response to posts that list some of the flip-flops?" You just said it wasn't documented yourself.Which is it.


Just asking questions,looking to gain knowledge.

[sangh0]

65. OK

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=189485

This link documents how Dean went from wanting to replace race as a factor in AA with class. Now he says he wants to keep race and add class.

"TLM claims that no one will tell him about the flip-flops in response to posts that list some of the flip-flops?" You just said it wasn't documented yourself.Which is it.

Just asking questions,looking to gain knowledge

Grasshopper, you need to spend time honing your reading skills. A "list of flip-flops" is not the same as "documentation of flip-flops". The post I was referring to had a list of flip-flops (as TLM requested) but had no "documentation" for them.

[Forkboy]

70. See how easy that was

I knew you had it in you!

[sangh0]

72. I wish I could say the same

but then again, there's always a chance you'll "evolve" :-)

[Forkboy]

76. well I did have the decency to apologize earlier

of course you spit on that,accused me of doing something,never backed the charge up and couldn't apologize yourself....but you might evolve someday too. :hi:

[sangh0]

79. And yet, you keep doing it

in spite of apologies.

[Forkboy]

81. so back it up

I said I'd apologize again if you locate me doing it.If you can't I hope you'd show some class and apologize yourself.

[Forkboy]

106. Speaking of "keep doing things"

this is the second time today you've made charges about me without backing them up.Again,you show yourself to be hypocritical and lacking in common decency.

[TLM]

108. It is a good thing though FOrkboy

when you figure that these are the kind of people who don;t like Dean... that tells me he's just right.

Guess Dean won't get the scumy lying little worm vote... but then Bush alread has that tied up, so no worries.

[TLM]

87. you just get more and more pathetic in your spin and attacks...

From that same gurdian article...

Dean called himself a ``vigorous supporter'' of affirmative action and explained the 1995 remark to reporters while in Las Vegas for two private fund-raisers.

``That's about help for people who don't have any money, and I think we should do that. But I also think affirmative action has to be about race, and I've said that all throughout this campaign,'' Dean said.


As has been pointed out over and over again Dean was talking about ADDITIONAL PROGRAMS like AA to address class disadvantages, not removing race from AA programs.

You bashers will stop at nothing to lie and attack Dean and when your spin is pointed out you just stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating the same disproven crap over and over.

[sangh0]

103. How pathetic that is

Dean says he's a "vigorous supporter" of AA, and you beleive it even though Dean wants to cut race out of AA.

In one quote he wants "not race, but class". In another quote, he wants "race AND class"

No, no flip-flop there.

As has been pointed out over and over again Dean was talking about ADDITIONAL PROGRAMS like AA to address class disadvantages, not removing race from AA programs.

Which part of "not race" do you have a problem understanding?

You Deanies will stop at nothing to lie and attack Dems and when your spin is pointed out you just stick your fingers in your ears and keep repeating the same disproven crap over and over.

[TLM]

110. There was no flip flop... only your spin.

"Dean says he's a "vigorous supporter" of AA, and you beleive it even though Dean wants to cut race out of AA."


Never once has dean said he wants to "cut race out of AA." That is another of your misrepresentations of a quote.

"In one quote he wants "not race, but class". In another quote, he wants "race AND class"

No, no flip-flop there."

No there's not, there is a correction of a dishonest misrepresentation of something Dean said. Dean was talking about additional programs like AA that would address class, not race... which Dean wants to do in addition to having the programs that address race.

Again you show you have to parse quotes down to two or three words taken out of context to have any hope of proping up your attacks.



"As has been pointed out over and over again Dean was talking about ADDITIONAL PROGRAMS like AA to address class disadvantages, not removing race from AA programs."

"Which part of "not race" do you have a problem understanding?"

What part of "also" do you not undertand?

``That's about help for people who don't have any money, and I think we should do that. But I also think affirmative action has to be about race, and I've said that all throughout this campaign,'' Dean said.


Dean was talking about developing new programs like AA that address class, not race. He was not talking about making the existing AA programs about class, not race. Do you understand the difference?

Dean supports AA and always has, and he wants to look at developing programs like AA, but that address other disadvantages besides race. Nowhere did he say anything about removing race from exsting AA programs or altering existing AA programs in any way. He'd talking about adding new programs that address disadvantages in other areas.


Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Do you think only one program dealing with disadvantages can exist at a time, so that any new programs addressing class must remove existing programs that deal with race? Why do you think that we can't have both kinds of programs? DO you think that if any program exists that helps based on class or other non-race based issues, that somehow programs that do help based on race are some going to cese to exist?

[TLM]

61. Specific, but not a flip flop.... please try to keep up.

"Dean has also flip-flopped on Cuba sanctions,"

Link... context... quotes? Didn't think so.

"a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution,"

What flip flop... he though we needed it to balance the budget back in 95, and Clinton showed it could be done without the amendment, so Dean supports doing it without the amendment. Dean's core position is the same, he supports balanced budgets.


"Medicare,"

No flip flop on meddicare. Just a misrepresented decade old quote.

Which is why you can't cite the quotes or anything specific.

"Social Security,"

No flip flop on SS. Just a misrepresented decade old quote from an answer to a hypothetical question.

Which is why you can't cite the quotes or anything specific.

"Affirmative Action,"

Another misrepresented quote... and another quote you bashers can't show in context. Because Dean has always been a suppoerter of AA, and the claim otherwise is based on one out of context statment Dean made about looking at programs like AA, not AA programs, for addressing class disadvantages.


" the death penalty, and more"


So far all you've got are recyled junk attacks. If this is the ybest you've got, no wonder you folks refuse to cite anything spefici or list quotes or provide links.

[sangh0]

66. already posted

"Dean has also flip-flopped on Cuba sanctions,"

Link... context... quotes? Didn't think so.

They have been posted in prior threads. So there's no link, no context, and no quotes here. Just specific examples of flip-flops, which is what you asked for.

"a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution,"

What flip flop... he though we needed it to balance the budget back in 95, and Clinton showed it could be done without the amendment, so Dean supports doing it without the amendment. Dean's core position is the same, he supports balanced budgets.

You're spinning. Dean didn't just think we needed to balance the budget in 1995. He though we neede to ALWAYS balance the budget EACH AND EVERY YEAR in the future. That's why he supported a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT which would have required a balanced budget EVERY YEAR.

Also, your response suggests that even though Dean comes from a state that does not require balanced budgets, and even though Dean himself was able to balance budgets with being required to do so, Dean still thought it was impossible to balance the budget without being required to do so by the constitution.

Dean's core position is the same, he supports balanced budgets.

Then why doesn't he support a BBA? Or does Dean just trust the Repukes to balance the budget?

Basically, you offer nothing but more of the same ole Dean denial. "Old quote", "taken out of context", "show me the whole speech", "distortion"

And the funny thing is, you probably believe it, and think that response is going to change the minds of people who get their news from TV.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

88. You proved my point

even though you whine about wanting quotes, you provide no quotes from the period when Dean supported BBA. All you've done is posted quotes from AFTER his flip-flop.

LOL! Wow you are getting despearte. I did not say Dean only wanted to balance the budget in 95. Rather it was in 95 that he was pushing hard for the BBA and it was after that when he backed off the BBA after seeing that Clinton was able to do it another way

You're contradicting yourself again. You said that Dean was for a BBA because of the Republicans. Now it's because Clinton showed him it wasn't needed, even though Dean already knew it could be done without a BBA because Dean had done it himself. And you still haven't provided any quotes saying that Clinton showed Dean it could be done another way.

You can't do it, because they don't exist. So all you have are excuses.

In fact, until you can provide substantive support for your claims, nothing you say is worth anything at all.

Next?

[TLM]

93. Still no quotes.... just attacks.

Let me know when you can back up your claims as I have backed up mine.

[sangh0]

97. Still no quotes.... just attacks.

Let me know when you can back up your claims as I have backed up mine.

[TLM]

99. SO you're just going to repeat everything I write...

while still providing no quotes or proof of your claims, nor any support for your attacks?

LOL! I wish I could say I was surprised.

[sangh0]

101. Only when it demonstrates your hypocritical arguments

and your hypocritical demands for context and quotes.

[Name removed]

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[KittyWampus]

53. There Was An Entire Thread Started By WillPitt Listing Issues

Dean has switched on. About one week ago... I won't have my star until tomorrow :( It's in the GD archives.

I edited out that last bit though.. too much info and I provided no link to Dean's specific statement as you said.... :+

There should be an unbiased thread about the difference tween preemption and preventive wars.

28. homework

"Too bad his supporters didn't do their homework before pledging their support."

I wouldn't be so sure about this.
This is an anecdote. Excuse me if I don't use the name of the guy.

There's a friend of my mother's who has been fairly high up in the Sierra Club at particular points in his career. The radical David Broder wing of it, not the accommodationists wing. His activism has got him in trouble legally before.
This guy does his homework, let's put it that way.
If you ask him about his druthers he'll tell you he's for Kucinich, but he's supporting Dean. He thinks a Dean/Clark ticket would be very strong or even a Dean ticket regardless of who the VP is.
My feeling is that there are a lot of people like this.

& even though this is just one guy I'm describing, I think that the fact that the man I'm describing supports Dean indicates something about Dean.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. "supporters didn't do their homework before pledging their support"

It seems to me a whole lot of people made the choice by comparing speeches posted to moveon.org as opposed to looking at the candidate's record or lack of one.

[depakid]

8. Yep- Dean & his team are not Dukarkis

They won't roll over and play dead. They'll come out swinging and they'll have a majority of the electorate cheering them on.

The Republican smear machine may have met its match this time... hence the concern over BBV.

[KittyWampus]

9. They Won't Have To "Smear" Him

They just have topoint out the difference between his record and statements while Governor and his positions and rhetoric now.

Sad but true. :(

Post Script- Look at the political hay the GOP made with the gracious salutory remarks Clark made in speeches about some in the
Bush Admin.... even though the rest of the speech was effectively a critique of their policy...

Do you ever wonder if they have Dean on video being lionized & speaking at the CATO Institute?

[Hep]

10. Nope

Do you ever wonder if they have Dean on video being lionized & speaking at the CATO Institute?

Nope. Because I can't get anyone here to even provide a quote from that.

[KittyWampus]

15. Well, Maybe You've Never Checked Back

I've posted it quite a few times- yet Dean supporters always seem to ignore it.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically
conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no
big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at
my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for
taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

[Name removed]

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[KittyWampus]

30. Google Is Available To All

No need to pull anything out of my ass...

And you proved my point... . MY ORIGINAL POST ASKED DON'T YOU WONDER WHY IF THEY HAVE THE WHOLE THING ON VIDEO.

Now sometimes I'm not very good at finding stuff on the interent... :dunce: it'd be great to get the transcript from that speeh.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

45. Did Dean say it or not?

You never defend Dean. The typical response when Dean is attacked is to attack back. Dean does it and so do his supporters.

Tell us hep, why (and wxactly when) did Dean stop supporting a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution?

[TLM]

52. FUnny you demand exact information... yet refuse to provide any.

Dean does support balanced budgets... that's a major reason he has so much support.

As for the BB constitutional admendment, he stopped supporting that when Clinton showed that it could be done without the amendment. Not sure the specific date... it was 96 or 97.

[sangh0]

55. Funny you demand exact information... yet refuse to provide any.

As for the BB constitutional admendment, he stopped supporting that when Clinton showed that it could be done without the amendment. Not sure the specific date... it was 96 or 97.

1) Are you saying that until 1996 or 1997, Dean did not know that you could balance a budget without a constitutional amendment? Isn't that pretty stupid for a man who has balanced budgets in his own state even though his state's constitution does not require it?

2) You don't do what you demand from others. You demand full quotes but you can't even provide a specific date, nevermind a full quote

[TLM]

78. What difference would it make if I dug up a quote that set the date?

"1) Are you saying that until 1996 or 1997, Dean did not know that you could balance a budget without a constitutional amendment? Isn't that pretty stupid for a man who has balanced budgets in his own state even though his state's constitution does not require it?"

2) You don't do what you demand from others. You demand full quotes but you can't even provide a specific date, nevermind a full quote"


Dean position is simple... he supports balanced budgets. At times he has supported a BB amendment to keep republicans from spending us into the red when they are in power, but he doesn't like the idea in general... he just likes it better than uncontroled deficit spending.

Here's a quote to that effect:

JOE KLEIN: You're for the balanced budget amendment? If so, how would you do a balanced budget in these circumstances?

HOWARD DEAN: You couldn't. You'd have to have a glide path (?) of the balanced budget amendment, for a balanced budget. Actually, Vermont is the only state in the country that doesn't have a balanced budget amendment, or balanced budget language. And yet, we probably have the best balancing of our budget in the last 12 years of any state, because we use most of the extra money to pay off debt, and to put into a rainy-day fund.

Now, I don't really like the idea of a balanced budget as public policy. But I'm so desperate, because every time there's a Republican president, he runs us into enormous debt. So I think the Democrats ought to support a balanced budget amendment.


and another....

MR. RUSSERT: Are you still in favor of a constitutional amendment to balance the budget?

DR. DEAN: You know, I go back and forth on that. It's not very good public policy but I'd love to see the Republicans hem and haw about what they would do about a constitutional amendment to balance the budget. The constitutional amendments to balance--we don't have one in Vermont. We're the only state that doesn't require a balanced budget, and we actually have the best fiscal record, or one of the best, of any state. But a constitutional amendment might--has forced Republicans who are really the party of fiscal irresponsibility, borrowing and spending, and borrowing and spending, and borrowing and spending, has forced them to balance the budgets when they otherwise wouldn't. So what I--I really don't like the idea of a federal balanced budget amendment, but I am very tempted.

MR. RUSSERT: But through your entire career you have been for a constitutional amendment to balance the budget.

DR. DEAN: Yes, because I just--I have, and it's because I think that there's so little fiscal discipline in the Congress that you might just have to do it. I hate to do it because we didn't have to do it in Vermont, but, God, the guys in Washington just never get it about money.

[sangh0]

83. Funny you demand exact information... yet say it makes no difference

Which is it? I also pointed out that you provided no quotes, even though you demanded quotes from others. I guess you just missed that part. I'm sure it was unintentional.

Dean position is simple... he supports balanced budgets. At times he has supported a BB amendment to keep republicans from spending us into the red when they are in power, but he doesn't like the idea in general... he just likes it better than uncontroled deficit spending.

Gee, that's not what you said a few minutes ago. Then, it was "Dean didn't know you could balance a budget without an amendment". Now, it's something else. (and no full quote from the period when Dean supported a BBA. Just half a quote without the question that Dean was responding to. Nice way to leave out the context and leave out Dean's position when he did support the BBA)

Even funnier is Dean's claim that he doesn't think it's good policy, but he supports it. Funnier still is how you don't notice Dean's fiscal stupidity is displayed with the statement "the guys in Washington just never get it about money."

Those "guys in Washington" created the largest surplus in US history. Dean supported a BBA for all the WRONG reasons. So let's recap:

In the 90's, when the Republicans were trying to cut social spending by complaining about deficits and pushing a BBA, Dean supported a BBA. In 2003, Dean does not support a BBA.

Verdict: Dean flip-flopped.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

89. "It makes no differnce becuse you'll simply repeat your bashing regardless

of any facts presented.

You provided no quotes from the time Dean supported BBA. You have the lies he's told since flip-flopping on a dozen issues in order to run for President.


Can you do anything but distort what was said. I never said "Dean didn't know you could balance a budget without an amendment".

What I said was that Clinton showed it could be done another way.

And the obvious implication is that until Clinton showed him, Dean thought BBA was the ONLY way, even though Dean himself had balanced budgets without being required to do so.



I cited two full quotes where Dean was stating his position on the BBA. You had to cut them and lie about them. Again thank you for proving my point.

Both of those quotes are from his flip-flop period. Try finding a quote from the time when he DID support BBA, as opposed to from AFTER he flip-flopped into not supporting BBA.

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

100. You can't defend, so you attack

It was YOU who said that until Clinton balanced the budget, Dean wanted a BBA because he thought it was the only way to balance the budget.

If you'll misquote yourself so blatantly and you're right here... that ovbiously shows you'll also misquote anyone. You have no concern for accuracy or facts... just proping up your attacks.

To what end... to show what? The fact he supported BBA back then is not in question. WHat is in question is the reason he no longer supports them, and that question was answered by the quotes you are trying so hard to ignore.

Wrong. What is in question is WHY he ever supported them to begin with. We've heard two different explanations from you

1) Clinton hadn't yet shown Dean how it's done
2) Dean wanted to oppose the Republicans by agreeing with their BBA proposal

[Name removed]

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[sangh0]

40. Of course they have the video

and of course, they could already be running it (but they're not...hmmm), and regardless of Hep's concern's about context, we all know that the Repukes would not pay to include the context on their anti-Dean commercials.

[TLM]

46. Yeah can't wait to see that Republican attack ad...

Howard Dean supports balanced budgets and responsible spending! He even says he's not a big government liberal!!!

Vote for Bush so we can have deficits and bigger government!


The fact is this issue might be something dems could used against Dean to try and paint themselves as being more left of Dean... but for the repukes, this is not something they'd attack with.

They’ll want to paint Dean as a far leftist who is weak on national security. That’s what Dean will have to fight... and he's already shown he can effectively fight the weak on national defense part of that attack against Kerry... so Bush will be cake.

[sangh0]

51. Boy, you really don't understand dirty tricks

It will be put out by a supposedly liberal group. Maybe they'll be called Democrats for Bush* or something.

[Forkboy]

64. Democrats for Bush

we already have some of those thanks.

[sangh0]

68. Dean is Democrat for Bush*

who attacks the other Dems more than he attacks Bush*. I could see the ad being put out by "Republicans for Dean"

[TLM]

96. Like most of your attacks on Dean... this to

exists in your imagination, and nowhere else.

[sangh0]

102. That's the ticket

I'm sure that'll work when you tell to those who get their news from TV.

[TLM]

111. We can only hope that the attacks from republicans on Dean

are as blatantly dishonest and completely self-defeating as the Dean bashing fantasies you manage to conjure up.

Unfortunately for us, the republicans are generally more subtle in their distortions and misrepresentations.

[HFishbine]

94. Just like

the repukes are not going to go after Dean on the confederate flag issue or guns.

[HFishbine]

90. Thanks for the link

to the article. Although it's in the rather conservative Weekly Standard, I thought it was very interesting -- especially the last two paragraphs:

Ever since that first meeting with Howard Dean some five years ago, I've been trying to think of what politician he most resembles. The former governor of a small state, he is charismatic, good looking, wonkish, craving of the spotlight, and capable of telling a room full of people precisely what they want to hear. The obvious answer recently hit me: Dean is Bill Clinton, but without the skirt-chasing.

Republicans are said to be salivating over the prospect of a Bush-Dean match-up. They shouldn't get carried away. Howard Dean, warns John McClaughry, has been "underestimated throughout his political career. He has an uncanny knack for finding where the political capital is stored and walking off with it." The trick for Dean is to ensure that the ultra-liberal positions he has taken in the primaries, which contradict his sometimes centrist record, don't cripple his ability to reach out to Middle American voters in a general election--should he make it that far. If he does, and then finds a way to zig-zag back toward the center, Howard Dean could be George W. Bush's worst nightmare.

[TLM]

27. And? Dean is a tightwad who supports balanced budgets...

how is that a bad thing and how is that any difffernt from what he says now??

[Cha]

37. There is No difference...just more

mind games.

[sangh0]

42. Dean opposes social spending

The people who oppose "big govt" and support balanced budgets are against social spending.

[TLM]

95. And where is your proof?

Oh that's right... nowhere.

Dean spending in VT proves you are wrong, as ususal, since Dean supported considerable social spending.

[denverbill]

11. And we will replay Bush's 2000 campaign statements.

We'll play Jon Stewart's Great Debate, Bush 2000 against Bush 2003 on nation-building.

We'll play clips of Bush praising small govt and then signing the largest spending increases in American history.

We'll play clips of Bush bashing unfunded mandates, then look at the largest unfunded mandate in history: The No Child Left Behind Act.

[vi5]

13. Who is this "we"?

I don't own a tv station. Do you?

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

19. exactly

but they do. look for all sorts of talking points memeo, hannity and colmes special investigations, and tons of other shit on a daily basis between now and next november. they're going to unload on him like they haven't since willie horton

[denverbill]

29. It's called buying ads. Everybody does it.

Dean will just do more of it than Gore, since he'll have more money.

[Brotherjohn]

16. "Uniter, not a divider"

The country is more divided now than ever, and there is ample polling evidence to demonstrate it.

I also read somewhere recently a before-after quote along the lines of:

BEFORE:
"We WILL capture Osama Bin Laden" (I think it was the 'dead-or-alive' one) "We WILL NOT rest until we do so. That is the most important objective."

AFTER:
"Catching Osama Bin Laden isn't important. It's the ..." (blah blah blah)

[KittyWampus]

18. Yet That Still Won't Negate Discrepencies In Dean's Record

now would it.

People are already in denial about Junior... with Dean it'd be easier to just continue tuning out the conflicting info regarding Junior
and accept the stuff about Dean... especially since there's enough stuff from Dean's own actual record and statements.

[Cha]

31. Dean has a record to be proud of and

he has a vision for our Country that I am looking forward to.

http://www.deanforamerica.com
http://www.blogforamerica.com

[denverbill]

35. It's good to see you rooting them on and helping them out too.

Old man Bush called Reagan's economic plan 'voodoo economics' and Reagan still chose him for VP. Old man Bush ran as a pro-abortion candidate against Reagan in the 1980 primary. 8 years later he ran as an anti-abortion candidate, and won.

I supported NAFTA in the early 90's too. I've since changed my stance to be closer to Dean's. So what? Only dreadfully stupid people cling to bad ideas after they are proven wrong. Smart people recognize their mistakes and change their opinions to adapt to facts.

Dean hasn't changed his mind on anything important over the years. He strongly supported NAFTA, but now he wants to modify it. Big fucking deal. So did I and so do I.

He was asked to comment about how to fix the deficit 10 years ago and said look at everything, even Medicare. Wow. Shocker, huh?

If you've got nothing better to do than bash Democrats, do it elsewhere.

[sangh0]

48. Dean helps the Republicans

by attacking Democrats as "Bush-lite" and "cockroaches" and by using Republican talking points like "big govt", "tax cuts", "balanced budgets", "legal technicalities", "tough judges", "limiting civil liberties", etc

Dean has changed his mind on Medicare, NAFTA, Cuba sanction, Balanced Budget Amendment, unilateral war, Iraq's WMD's, Affirmative Action, Social Security, Isreal, and more.

[Cha]

69. So? "Changed his mind"...so?

That's one reason why I like Dean so much ..he's not stuck in the mud like so many of the candidates. He's capable of vision and I like his vision for our Country.

http://www.deanforamerica.com
http://www.blogforamerica.com

[sangh0]

73. He is also capable

of changing into a war hawk who kills all the social programs. And his "vision" is likely "evolve" into a "nightmare"

[TLM]

98. LOL! If this is the level of criticism Dean will face...

he might as well get his oval office pen set and his "The doctor is In" sign ready for the white house.

And again Shang0, thank you for proving the point about the incredibly inane nature of those attacking Dean... how dishonest and lacking in integrity and credibility they're attacks are.

[sangh0]

49. Dean helps the Republicans

by attacking Democrats as "Bush-lite" and "cockroaches" and by using Republican talking points like "big govt", "tax cuts", "balanced budgets", "legal technicalities", "tough judges", "limiting civil liberties", etc

Dean has changed his mind on Medicare, NAFTA, Cuba sanction, Balanced Budget Amendment, unilateral war, Iraq's WMD's, Affirmative Action, Social Security, Isreal, and more.

[KittyWampus]

59. Pointing Out Dean's Discrepencies and Gaffes Is Bashing?

when my candidate changes his positions he's evolving
when your candidate changes his positons he's flip-flopping! :D

Dean has evolved on a lot of issues by the way.

Will Pitt started a thread about it. :)

[depakid]

58. So let me get this straight-

The repubs are going to smear Dean with what are predominantly THEIR OWN ideological position?

That will take the dexterity of Houdini.

The fact is that Howard Dean (like anyone whose neural connections haven;t been cemented together for 10 years) is capable of policy consequences and changing his mind when the evidence warrants it. Frankly, I see that as a hallmark of an intelligent, progressive mind. It take courage to challange one's views and convictions- something utterly lacking in most of the Republicans currently in office- and a good many Dems to boot.

[lyonn]

80. keeping mind open

Good point. Kinda like, be careful what you wish for. Dean appears to know who he is, what's important to him and able and willing to say such, has crowd appeal (no small thing now days). I'm afraid all those who stood by Bush in rose gardens and agreed with him will have problems that will be unsurmountable. I truly like Hillary, but the day in the Senate when she finished her speech and declared she never the less was going to vote for the amendment for Bush to go to war without further approval of the Congress, that was a big disappointment. I was hoping since she had lived in the White House that she knew something most of us didn't. That seems to not be accurate. Here we are BOGGED down and dying in Iraq with Bush and Co. running around making wild guesses as to how to FIX it. Dean has made it clear he was against the way we entered the war. Yes, being open minded is a virtue.

[RandomUser]

17. The problem is the type of attack.

If they try to paint Dean as a mad raving lunatic hothead, than any angry retorts that Dean makes in counterattacking would backfire.


Example
Rove: Dean is an angry hothead who can't be trusted to have his finger on the button.
Dean: No, I'm not, you slimy sonavugun.
Rove: See, people? What did I tell you?


Basically, they'll put Dean in dilemna. Don't respond to those smears and watch them work their way in the press, or respond and have their reponse painted as proof of angry hothead disagreeability. The more Dean counterattacks, the more Rove will point to those counterattacks and say, "See? What did I tell you? Angry unstable hothead." All the while, Bush will be sitting up there as benign, amiable, Commander-in-Chief in a post-9/11 world, a source of stability and someone to be trusted in a dangerous world.

Now, I'm not saying that Dean can't win, but it will be much tougher than with other candidates. And I think we owe it to ourselves to take our best shot. We shouldn't handicap ourselves even more.

As for the claim that Dean will be able to handle this type of smear since he's handled it from the other Dems -- note that none of the other Dems have used this type of smear. They haven't made painting Dean as an angry lunatic the key to their campaign. So Dean has never really had to counter this type of smear. The danger of this type of smear is the more Dean tries to agressively defend himself, the more that agressive defense will be used as proof that Rove was right.

If the Dean people have any suggestions as to how they can avoid this double-bind, do tell. Because if Dean wins, the nomination, I'd feel a lot better if he actually had a way out of this Rove trap.

Obviously, I hope Clark wins, so Rove won't be able to use this type of smear. Though I have no doubts Rove will try other types of smears with Clark, at least defense of those smears won't be used as proof by Rove that they're right.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

24. best defense of 'hothead, angry' attacks

laugh them off. go on letterman a few times (he obviously hates bush). jon stewart and make the accusers look foolish

[KittyWampus]

33. Then He Looks Like A Liar

and basically he WILL be. How many times have Dean suporters actually SAID they like Dean's anger?

Jeez, then he looks schizophrenic... first half of his campaign is spent looking and being angry... then trying to say he wsn't.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

38. big difference between justified anger and instability

that's what needs to be pointed out

[Cha]

43. No Dean doesn't "look like a liar" because

he is not.

[lyonn]

86. What's this anger stuff

I have seen Dean many times on tv and have never seen him angry. His "buckshot in the butt" comment was clever and he didn't appear angry during the whole debate even tho he was being hammered.

[TLM]

39. This meme is lame too...

They'll try to paint any fight from any democrat as being bitter angry crazy liberal whining or ranting etc.


"If the Dean people have any suggestions as to how they can avoid this double-bind, do tell. Because if Dean wins, the nomination, I'd feel a lot better if he actually had a way out of this Rove trap. "

All Dean has to do is mix in a little humor and hope with the anger, which he's already done very well, and then tie his anger to the anger americans are feeling over lost jobs, being lied to, dead soldiers, etc. then paint Bush's attacks on that anger as attacks on americans who are angry.

[depakid]

67. Parrying these sort of attacks is not so simple minded as that

Dean has an excellent command of the english language and I've watched him over the months with varying degrees of success learn how to respond effectively to blunt and often disingenuous attacks as you describe. He's certainly getting good practice in the pre-primary debates, and from what I've observed, he'll be more that capable of not only responding with credible statements, but with pithy one's that end up turning the tables on Rove & Co.

After all, he has all the ammunition he needs, given the projected state of the economy (the REAL economy) and the quagmire in Iraq.

[TLM]

20. Dean fights back... Gore did not.

Gore seemed to think that if he ignored the attacks they'd go away.


Dean will not only fight back, he has set up this internet machine for gettign facts out.

Just imagine if the papers that printed the "inveneted the internet" story and their advertisrers got letters, e-mail, and faxes from tens of thousands of meetup folks calling them on it?

[no name no slogan]

26. One MAJOR problem

The whole country isn't as "wired" as we internet snobs here at DU seem to think it is. There's still a large number of people who don't even have a PHONE, much less an internet connection.

Yes, Dean has used the power of the internet in his campaign-- very effectively, too. However, there are STILL 90% of the people in this country who cannot name one Democrat running for president.

Relying solely on the internet for your campaign will only get you the vote of white, upper-middle-class suburbanites who can afford a computer and/or internet connection-- and who have the time to surf the web at their liesure.

To win on the ground, you still can't beat the old-fashioned methods of canvassing, door-knocking, phone-calling, leafleting, and talking to folks person-to-person.

DON'T neglect the old methods because the new method works so well.

[TLM]

32. The old methods are not being neglected...

they are also being used... but with the digital twist. The dead supporters in some states are going to other states where the digitial divide is a problem, and there they are doing canvassing and phone banking, and letter writing etc.

The wired end of things doesn;t replace the old ways... it super charges them.

[sangh0]

34. super-chargers?

Do you honestly think the 15% that Dean has been polling around deserves the adjective "super charged"? Is so, then what do you call getting 51% - super duper no-blooper charged?

[sangh0]

71. TLM, are you there?

I know you are. So why no answer?

[Forkboy]

109. Why no answer Sangha

on your charges about me?

[TLM]

112. For the very same reason

that there are no quotes or context to support the charges against Dean.

Because the charges are ignorant fabrications.

[depakid]

74. Give it up on the 15%

The polls you cite are methodologically flawed and UTTERLY meaningless - should I say lack any predictive validity at this stage of the game. Pounding those figures to prove the point you've been trying to make is foolish at best-

[sangh0]

75. Yep, the polls are pretty meaningless

but that doesn't stop some Dean supporters from claiming victory.

I noticed you had nothing to say about TLM's references to Dean's "successful" campaign. Since Dean hasn't won any primary elections so far, where did TLM's description come from? A poll?

But you won't tell him to "Give it up". In his case, it's OK to refer to polls.

[TLM]

113. No in fact I wasn't refering to polls.

"I noticed you had nothing to say about TLM's references to Dean's "successful" campaign. Since Dean hasn't won any primary elections so far, where did TLM's description come from? A poll?

But you won't tell him to "Give it up". In his case, it's OK to refer to polls."


As a matter of fact iw as talking about the comments from Andrew Stern about the effectivness of Dean;s outreach efforts.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/992384.asp?0cl=c3

The SEIU offered all the candidates the same resources: a list of their local leadership and a warning that the route to the endorsement began not in Stern’s fifth-floor office on L Street NW but through the rank and file. “Everybody got the same advice,” an SEIU official said. “Howard Dean took it to heart.” No other candidate came close to Dean’s outreach. “Shockingly” not close, Stern said.



I didn't say anything about a poll, but since when has the truth about someone's position and what they said prevented you from making crap up to suit your attacks?

[TLM]

104. Yes I do think supercharged is the right term...

And this quote from Andrew Stern demonstrates why...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/992384.asp?0cl=c3

The SEIU offered all the candidates the same resources: a list of their local leadership and a warning that the route to the endorsement began not in Stern’s fifth-floor office on L Street NW but through the rank and file. “Everybody got the same advice,” an SEIU official said. “Howard Dean took it to heart.” No other candidate came close to Dean’s outreach. “Shockingly” not close, Stern said.

[nannygoat]

41. Dean will benefit from Gore's experience. Who would have predicted

the right wing smear campaign in 2000 (we should have known, though, after the impeachment). After what Gore went through, both the candidate and his/her supporters will be ready.

[bushisanidiot]

62. Dean Laughs In The Face of Right Wing Spin. He's Smart and Quick Witted

he's going to make AWOL look like a scared little boy at the debates..


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[bushisanidiot]

63. Dean Laughs In The Face of Right Wing Spin. He's Smart and Quick Witted

he's going to make AWOL look like a scared little boy at the debates..


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[Kolesar]

77. Dean invented internet...campaigning !!

...and went on to kick George Bush's ass out of Washington. How about that headline?

[Cha]

82. That's the new thinking! That kind of

"headline" is the one we Will see! Thank you! :kick:

[mitchum]

114. kick