Only the final four straw poll-Kerry, Kucinich, Clark, Dean

[bobthedrummer]

Poll question: Only the final four straw poll-Kerry, Kucinich, Clark, Dean

I'll include undecided.

[Terwilliger]

1. kick

[_NorCal_D_]

2. Clark

B-)

[bobthedrummer]

30. Clark lives in the land of moles IMHO, scary for Democratic Party IMHO

eom

[_NorCal_D_]

37. I see.

Believe me, Clark is no Republican mole. Please take a look at some of these articles:


Sat, Sep. 20, 2003
Clark Calls Iraq War 'A Major Blunder'
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/galloway/6815661.htm

Friday 28 August 2003
Bush's Men Tried To Gag Me, Claims Gen Clark
http://truthout.org/docs_03/082903I.shtml

October 27, 2003
Clark: Bush Is Playing Politics With U.S. Soldiers' Lives
http://www.channel3000.com/wisctv/2583515/detail.html

April 10, 2003
Anti-War Candidate? What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory
by General Wesley Clark
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0917-14.htm

Oct. 8, 2003
A warrior for peace
Why Wesley Clark could be an Eisenhower for our time.
http://oklahomansforclark.com/Eisenhower.htm




Here is something that you might find interesting; the polical compass for Clark, Dean and Kucinich. Here is Clark:
http://www.issues2000.org/Wesley_Clark.htm
Wesley Clark is a Populist-Leaning Liberal.


Here is how Dean measured up:

http://www.issues2000.org/Howard_Dean.htm
Howard Dean is a Moderate Liberal


And Kucinich:

http://www.issues2000.org/Dennis_Kucinich.htm
Dennis Kucinich is a Liberal Populist


By the looks of this, Clark shares more political views with Kucinich than Dean! :wow: B-)

[bobthedrummer]

40. It's more the military think tank neo-conservative dominance

that helped shape his military career IMO.

[RandomUser]

50. And yet Clark attacks the MIC and PNAC by name

The only two people who have attacked PNAC by name are Clark and Kucinich. Clark is on record as saying he wants to cut the Pentagon budget by 25%. He wants to focus on military families, not expensive weapons systems.

As far as I know, Dean has stated he would not cut Defense, because he doesn't want to appear weak on defense. Clark doesn't have that problem. He's stated that just because something has just because something is stamped with "military" or "top-secret" doesn't mean it will escape scrutiny. He's characterized the military as a "want machine."

From his past stances, he's gone to bat for military families. He created an affordable daycare program, and has managed healthcare, spousal abuse programs, and education for military families. He's been before congressional budgeteers pushing for more spending to improve the lives of servicemen, instead of putting money into expensive hightech weapon toys.

With the exception of Kucinich, NONE of the other candidates have criticized PNAC. They don't dare to appear weak on Defense. Clark doesn't have that problem. He's called the MIC by name, and the first person to coin that phrase and point out the dangers of the MIC was also a general who ran for president and won.

Only Nixon could go to China. Only Clark can attack MIC and PNAC without appearing weak on Defense and National Security. And I believe only he can push through legislation to reign in MIC and PNAC.

Anyone else will either be afraid of looking weak, won't really know what the hell is under the all those "top-secret" military labels and be bamboozled, or will be painted as an ignorant lily-livered liberal by the republicans in congress. We've already started to see this overcompensation kick into effect when Dean stated he would not cut Defense or military spending.

Clark knows how to cut the waste, attacking the MIC and PNAC, without impacting our effectiveness at National Security and Defense. And he can do it without being crucified.

Note that all the warmongers like Rummy, Bush, Cheney are chickenhawks, not people like Clark who have served and been on the pointy end of the stick. It seems those who have the least military service are the ones most likely to be agressive and wage war. It would be a mistake to put someone else into office who follows that mold of the chickenhawk.

Only Nixon could go to China. And I believe only a General can kill PNAC and MIC. When your candidate attacks the PNAC and MIC by name, then get back to me.

[bobthedrummer]

51. Dennis would cut DoD 15% and invest in pre-school program for all kids

and more parents could find work too.

[RandomUser]

52. Exactly

Clark and Kucinich are the only two, just like I said.

And of the two, Clark is the only one with the gravitas and credentials to push it through without appearing weak.

Dean has specifically stated he's against cutting DoD spending.

Clark has the political viability to do it as president, and only as president, not as VP to someone who can't afford to do it politically. The MIC and PNAC have to be reigned in.

Clark and Kucinich are arrayed on the same side against Dean on this issue.

[youngred]

85. I agree

I like Clark, but third to Kucinich and Kerry.

I think he'd make a better VP right now as I'm not sure he has the pure political experience. I'd love to vote for him given the nomination though :-)

[RandomUser]

99. I think he's had political experience in governance and diplomacy

In terms of pure political horestrading and negotiations, he's had to do a lot of that as SACEUR, holding together a multi-national alliance where every nation wanted something different from him.

This might be of interest to you.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795

Ron Klain, Clark's senior policy adviser, says that as a result of Clark's military experience, 'he's more like a governor than a senator. He has run bases: they have school systems, health care issues, race issues.'


He has executive governing experience, but not legislative experience. So he's certainly had to deal with domestic governance issues. He's also had experience in international diplomatic negotiations, and this is something that many of the current candidates lack. And it will be crucial that our next president be well versed in that in order to repair the damage Bush has done to us internationally. Clark can only do that if he's shaping foreign policy as president, not VP.

[youngred]

103. I still Think Dennis is better

but I don't have any problem with Clark and would happily vote for him if he becomes the candidate or if those above him on my list drop out (2) or if they do something I cannot stomach.

Peace :hi:

[JackRiddler]

111. never having held a political position in the past...

Never even having stood for an elected office, Clark is in great shape to say whatever it takes to win over Democratic voters in the primary.

Once he's nominated, watch him outflank Bushie-boy on Homeland Security and the Perpetual World War - from the right!

"The New American Patriotism" - sounds like Bush's post-9/11 claims.

[hippiechick]

3. kick

:hippie:

[lancdem]

4. Kick!

:)

[bobthedrummer]

5. The only Progressive is Dennis.

eom

[robsul82]

6. The only Elf is Dennis.

;)

Later.

RJS

[TLM]

8. Come on... Kucincih is no elf.

He's more of a gnome.

[robsul82]

9. Garden gnome or lawn gnome?

:D

Later.

RJS

[sangh0]

46. The is the exact kind

of thoughtful and mature comments we have come to expect from some Dean supporters

[KittyWampus]

18. Lieberman Is The Oversized Elf- Dennis Is An IMP!

Dennis has an impish smile.

Lieberman's the one whole looks like an oversized deranged elf.

[robsul82]

21. Why, oh WHY...

...did I just get a flash of Lieberman hopping around in a deranged manner in Will Ferrell's elf costume? That will haunt me forever, lol.

Later.

RJS

[PurityOfEssence]

22. Ah, the mature acuity of Paul Begala rears its puerile head

What does that have to do with anything? You're aware that Dean's going to take just the same kind of juvenile hits for his looks and height, right? Are you going to cry foul when that happens?

Geez.

[robsul82]

26. I, for one, am secure in my 5'7"-tude...

...that I don't get offended, hehe. 'Sides, they can call Dean short, but DK looks like an elf. Or a gnome. And Dean's looks are fine. We can always trot out Matthews to describe Dean's manly forearms.

Later.

RJS

[PurityOfEssence]

47. Okay, howzabout this?

He looks like he learned to smile from some mail-order course, and his tucking in of the chin makes one wonder if his head isn't going to spin under like some Transformer toy. Confusing his smile even more is some fierce clenching that makes one think that he hates his lips--such as they are--so much that he's trying to crush them into submission. One also wonders if he will ever achieve his greatest dream and manage to puff out his neck like a bullfrog. We could also talk about the constipatation walk, but that would be tiresome.

Too bad the old Mad Magazine cartoonist Don Martin isn't alive anymore; he could have done the perfect caricature of Dr. Fonebone.

Lotsa fun, huh? Deep, too.

Gotta run now, catch you after recess.

[sangh0]

48. You're missing the point, POE

It's all about Rob's 'tude

[redqueen]

54. Wait...

you forgot to articulate my favorite juvenile observation of Dean: his mouth-breathing.

Trying to catch flies, coach noneck?

Sorry, I know very well that two wrongs don't make a right.

But after seeing so much Kucinich bashing on a day-to-day basis, I simply could not let these go unspoken.

Also there is the (vain?) hope that seeing these comments about THE ONE might make others re-think making such mindless statements in the future.

[PurityOfEssence]

83. Yeah...juvenility is contagious, isn't it?

I know how you feel. It's tiresome.

Kucinich is a good man and it's galling how some people can't even scrape up some respect.

As for appearance-based ridicule, it's just sad.

[foo_bar]

106. more like someone who hasn't eaten a furry animal in years

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. 100% of the time, Kucinich is attacked for his looks

on every thread. So let me begin. Howard Dean looks like an angry dwarf, and John Kerry looks like Frankenstein.

I like it, Hoho the Angry Dwarf, and John Frankenstein Kerry.

[youngred]

84. what an excellent reason

to attack the most progressive, honest, intelligent and committed candidate in the field.

:eyes:

[Hep]

11. Progressive

Except for a strong record against reproductive rights and freedom of speech.

Other then that, he's very progressive.

[bobthedrummer]

25. Not for some time-he's for Roe vs. Wade litmus test for fed judges

eom

[Hep]

32. Sure

But what about gag rules, and forcing parental notification and foreign aid to countries who counsel and educate about family planning and abortion?

I'm not against Kucinich, but there are issues on which he is NOT the most progressive.

[Mairead]

42. check your facts

[Hep]

45. facts

that you can't apparently provide? Facts like his voting record on reproductive rights issues and the flag burning ban?

[youngred]

88. he's reversed those positions

which is why they said check your facts.

[Hep]

91. Reversed those positions?

How? He voted against the ban of D&X which I admire. But I still don't know how he feels about parental notification and things like that. If you have a quote from him or anything that lays this out clearly, I'd love to see it. I'm certainly not going to go on the word of vitriolic supporters. Just show me something.

Also, he voted for the ban on flag burning THIS YEAR. When could he have reversed his position?

[youngred]

94. Vitrolic supporters?

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's pretty damn laughable. I don't have links, but I'm sure you could find them quite easily because he changed it quite some time ago.

[Hep]

97. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA?

You deny that they exist?

Well, anyway. If someone questions my candidate and asks for backup for something that I say, I provide it. If you are a Kucinich supporter, why don't you have this information on hand? Why do I have to go looking for it?

I'm not going to, by the way. It really isn't my job. But if you are so sure he's had revelations on these issues, the burden of proof is on you to provide it. I won't think any less of your or Kucinich if you don't. It's just not my responsibility.

[youngred]

102. I don't deny they exist

but I'm not really one and I find the idea that I am to be kind of funny :shrug:. That is part of the reason I don't have the information on me, I like Dennis, i send him some money, I've looked into volunteering for his campaign, but I don't have volumes of texts and quotes sitting on hand to show you at a whim.

Why would you go look for it? To educate yourself about you candidates for office as a democrat perhaps? So you can make the edicated choice about who you feel would be the best next president of the United States.

I can't hand you the information on a platter. Ask JohnKleeb or most of the other Kucinich supporters, I guarantee they can help you, I just don't have it on me and unfortunately not the time to look (been a rather busy day).

[Hep]

112. I don't intend

to lump you in as a vitriolic supporter. Those who are KNOW who they are. And I also wanted to get across that I simply don't have the TIME to search every word on every candidate either, so I understand where you are coming from.

[brava]

107. Of course it's you're responsibility...

As a citizen it is your responsibility to be informed about all the candidates.

Do your homework.

www.kucinich.us

[Hep]

114. LOL!

It's my job to do the leg work for Kucinich supporters who are too lazy to back up their own candidate. You guys must think I have more hours in my day than you do.

You give me the basic kucinich site and expect me to search through it. Why not just admit that claims are being made than you can't back up with specifics? If you asked for similar information on my candidate, I would provide it. I almost never get that courtesy returned to me. Go fig. I guess I just have to get used to disappointment.

BTW, I have a candidate. If you want me to be completely informed about YOURS, you oughtta put up, so to speak.

[youngred]

87. Except he's changed his position

and sworn never to vote against abortion rights.

and freedom of speech, what are you talking about?

[Hep]

92. Abortion rights

are one thing, and admire him for sticking up for the right to have an abortion, but what about other issues surrounding reproductive rights, like parental notification laws and abortion on military bases?

The flag burning ban, which kucinich supported with his vote, is a violation of both free speech and private property ownership rights.

[Ficus]

89. Free Speech?

Yeah, only person running who voted against PATRIOT Act.

[Hep]

93. So?

I didn't say anything about the Patriot Act.

[Kosmos Mariner]

7. Floridian For Clark

:dem:

[library_max]

10. kick

[Mattforclark]

12. Kucinich is one of the final 4?

Dennis is a great guy, but would that have anything to do with the 'KUCINICH 2004.' in your signature?

[bobthedrummer]

15. No, it's based on final four showing in previous polls here.

eom

[Mattforclark]

17. OK

That makes more sense. I thought it was supposed to be based on the nation as a whole and not the subset of DU.

[Clark Can WIN]

13. Clark - not McGovern

[TLM]

14. Can the Clark people tell me why you support Clark...

Despite what he's said about bombing journalists... what he said about Bush and Reagan... and the fact he used to work as a lobbyist?

How do you rationalize it?

[DemExpat]

16. Do a DU search TLM......

He's the best candidate for President NOW - and sorely needed.

:kick:
DemEx

[TLM]

57. I did a search... and found this...

Wall Street Journal, 9/18/03

IN ANNOUNCING his presidential campaign, Wesley K. Clark promoted himself as the candidate best qualified to prosecute the war on terror. As a businessman, he has applied his military expertise to help a handful of high-tech companies try to profit from the fight Since retiring from a 34-year Army career in 2000, Gen. Clark has become : chairman of a suburban Washington technology-corridor start-up, managing director at an investment firm, a director at four other firms around the country and an advisory-board member for two others. For most, he was hired to help boost the companies' military business. .


That's EXACTLY what Cheney did for Haliburton.


more....

After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Gen. Clark counseled clients on how to pitch commercial technologies to the government for homeland-security applications. One is Acxiom Corp., based in Gen. Clark's hometown of Little Rock, Ark., where he formally launched his campaign yesterday. He joined the board of the Nasdaq-traded company in December 2001, as the company started to market its customer-database software to federal agencies eager to hunt for terrorists by scanning and coordinating the vast cyberspace trove of citizen information.

"He has made efforts at putting us in contact with the right people in Washington ... setting up meetings and participating in some himself," says Acxiom Chief Executive Charles Morgan. "Like all of us around 9/11, he had a lot of patriotic fervor about how we can save our country."


<snip>

While he was originally hired as a consultant by WaveCrest Laboratories LLC, Dulles, Va., to help find military buyers for its promising new electric motor, Gen. Clark became the company's chairman in April, and has also focused on selling products in the commercial market. But Gen. Clark's knowledge of and ties with, the military and government markets have been a large part of his appeal to potential employers.

Stephens Inc., the large, politically connected Little Rock investment firm, hired him to boost its aerospace business shortly after he gave up his NATO command. He left Stephens last year and opened his own consultancy, Wesley K. Clark & Associates.
While Gen. Clark was at Stephens, the firm also marketed him to clients such as Silicon Energy-in which Stephens held a stake - "as a good person to help us understand the federal procurement process," says Mr. Woolard. The company was trying to enter the government market, and Gen. Clark explained the process "and contacted people at the Navy and Air Force and told them what we had," Mr. Woolard says. (Silicon Energy was acquired earlier this year by Itron Inc., and Gen. Clark no longer advises the firm).

Time Domain Corp., a Huntsville, Ala., advanced wireless-technology company, recruited Gen. Clark to become an adviser in February 2002 through one of its chief operating officers, who had been a colonel under his NATO command during the Bosnia campaign. Gen. Clark has counseled the company on how to answer Pentagon concerns that its low-power radar system might interfere with global positioning and communications systems, as well as to better craft that technology for military use. board of Entrust, at the request of CEO William Conner, who had served with him on a Pentagon advisory panel.
At Entrust, Gen. Clark has provided advice on how to sell to various NATO governments, says David Wagner, Entrust's chief financial officer. He has also helped emphasize the firm's product securing electronic networks for new homeland-security applications.
_________________________________________________________



Now can you tell me why you support putting a war profiteer lobbyist for defesne contractors in the white house?


I want to hear your honest and well thought out reasons why putting a man who manipulates policy for profit, in charge of policy decisions.

[hilzoy]

86. You do realize

that WaveCrest produces environmentally friendly electric bicycles, favorite vehicle for war profiteers everywhere? And that projected future applications for its electric generator (as far as I know, the technology on which all its rather small number of products are based) include hybrid cars and windmills for decentralized power generation?

[TLM]

117. I don't care if they make candy hearts and kitten posters.

that does not change the fact that Clark was working as a lobbyist and advisor on how these companies can take advantage of the military industrial complex and defense policy... while also working with groups like CSIS to influence that policy.

[Renew Deal]

19. No one owes you anything.

But feel free to share why you support Dean.

[TLM]

58. I didn't say anybody owes me anything... I said they won;t address this

and thank you for proving that point.

[KittyWampus]

20. What He's Said About Bush????

Aside from some gracious salutations at the beginning of a couple of speeches...

Clark's been dissecting Junoir and his coterie and the entire PNAC plan!

Thanks for bringing that up for us!

[TLM]

59. Bush Sr. not Jr.

He said at a republican fundraiser in 2001 that Reagan and Bush Sr. were great leaders.

If that is Clark's idea of great leadership, I don’t want him in the white house. Someone who thinks Reagan and Bush Sr. were great leaders and wants to be the democratic president, is like OJ wanting to be a marriage counselor.

[deminflorida]

35. Sure, I'm retired Military...

and I served the same as Wes Clark. I prefer him, I trust him, and I have confidence in him as a leader. Sorry, but I like Dean as well but he is not much of a people person is he? Maybe it's just me but he comes off as a bit of a smarty pants as well. I already had my ass (pardon the pun) kicked first by supporting Gore, wouldn't want that to happen again. What's so wrong in supporting Clark anyway. I don't see any of the other candidate supporters having a problem with it, just the Dean folks on this board. As a matter of fact, I think they have just as much fear of Clark as does the GOP, and RNC.

Chris, A Democrat in Florida...the Battleground State.

Oh, by the way, I think we might just need Florida this go-around.

[TLM]

60. WHat is wrong with Clark....

"and I served the same as Wes Clark. I prefer him, I trust him, and I have confidence in him as a leader."

Do you agree with him that journalists and civilians are OK targets?

"What's so wrong in supporting Clark anyway. "

For one, he's a war profiteer just like Cheney.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php

[SahaleArm]

76. Disingenuous as always

Why not support your candidate instead of arguing with debunked information? If you continue to persist ask yourself why Clark was cleared of any war crimes charges.

[JackRiddler]

115. Cleared?

Gee, the NATO-country-funded Yugoslavia tribunal refused to indict NATO. That clears him!

[TLM]

118. Clark was not busted for war crimes for the same reason Bush hasn't

been busted for war crimes.

Because americans get away with all kinds of shit like that... did you just wake up from a 50 year sleep?


And when was this debunked?

Clark said he targeted journalists. Clark said that journalists are just as valid targets as soldiers.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0923-08.htm

Given our collective recurring political amnesia, let's turn to an eye-opening August 1999 report from our British friends at The Guardian, concerning Clark's role as Supreme Allied Commander - a post viewed by Clark supporters as a major qualification to be our next president.

"NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. 'We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces,' U.S. General Wesley Clark explained - 'his,' of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians... The targeting of the studio was a war crime, perhaps the most indisputable of several war crimes committed by NATO in its war against Yugoslavia."

If you think the Guardian editors were being overly harsh in describing this as a "war crime," keep in mind that a panel of 16 judges from 11 countries who, at a people's tribunal meeting in New York before 500 witnesses, found U.S. and NATO leaders guilty of war crimes against Yugoslavia in the March 24 to June 10, 1999, "humanitarian" attack on that country.

As for Clark's reputation among the rank and file in our military establishment, the highly decorated and straight-talking Col. David Hackworth has written that Clark is "known by those who've served with him as the 'Ultimate Perfumed Prince.' (He) is far more comfortable in a drawing room discussing political theories than hunkering down in the trenches where bullets fly and soldiers die."

And we haven't even scratched the surface in discussing Clark's idealization of the Powell Doctrine, which led to NATO forces dropping tons of depleted uranium bombs on Kosovo, creating widespread civilian sickness as a result of contamination associated with DU.

[Code_Name_D]

120. A good question.

So why wount Clark supporters explane why they support Clark? All I have seen is they like how his teeth sparkel when he smiles, and how thouse four stars glisens in the sun.

Zero substance.

Clark is the Panicia man, and has no more progresive or librial tendsies than a suger pill.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

96. Does Dean support bombing journalists?

So ask Dean if he supports bombing journalists, he supported NATO invading Serbia didn't he? In fact, if Dean had any guts, he'd make the issue public himself. I'd love to hear a discussion about our tactics during war.

But Dean won't, because he'd rather cheer for war on the sidelines than miss ski season - until he runs for president of course, in which case he'll denounce war from the sidelines.

[TLM]

119. Even if by some freak chance Dean did support bombing journalists...

which is total BS, Dean NEVER DID IT!

Clark did. CLark bombed journalists and murdered 20 civilians in a TV station, then defended his doing so by saying journalists are the same as the army.

Everybody in this country shit when journalist Richard Pearl was murdered, we considered that an act of terrorism. Yet when our guy murders journalists… he’s a hero.

:WTF:

[democratreformed]

66. Surprise!

Here goes.

I have given this some thought and concluded, at present, that it does not bother me. In a round about way, I can relate. I work in construction - primarily in the grain, feed, and seed industries.
If I could hire someone with a certain amount of expertise to market a new product I came up with, I would certainly do so. If I could hire an advisor during the development of that product who had inside knowledge of the needs of my target market, I would do that too.

Now, suppose that I were on the other side of the issue. Suppose I had worked all my life for minimal pay. Upon my retirement, being still fairly young as far as work goes, I had the opportunity to make some real money and provide my family with many things they had never had before. Would I do a background search and make sure that my choice was the politcally correct thing to do? No, I'm sure I wouldn't.

Now, if I were to find some convincing evidence that pointed to the fact that General Clark's three years as an employee of various corporations meant that he would, indeed, turn out to be as bad as George Bush, I would certainly reconsider my choice.

Who he worked for, how much he was paid, etc. etc. just does not convince me of that.

Personally, I have seen much more convincing evidence that his views are more in line with mine. Not all of them, of course, but many of them.

At this point, I trust him and will continue to do so until there is a real reason for me not to.

[TLM]

73. Clark was not selling seed or grain...

he was helping defense contractors take advantage of US defense policy for profit.

He was helping companies like acxiom sell their vast database of consumer information to John Ashcroft for no fly lists.

We've had enough war profiteers in the white house.

I'm amazed how many Clark supporters are OK with the fact this guy was a lobbyist for defense contracotrs who just up and decided one day he's going to run for democratic presidental nomination.

Clark was a professional manipulatior of policy for profit, and now he wants to be put in charge of making policy decisions.


"Personally, I have seen much more convincing evidence that his views are more in line with mine. Not all of them, of course, but many of them. "

And does any of that evidence come from Clark's actions, or just from his current script?

[democratreformed]

78. Point taken

Not seed and grain - but the same concept - get contracts to make money. Use supply and demand.

I have done much research on Clark. I have studied his past actions. I am in the process of reading his first book.

I participated in the online "Leadership for America" forum which was begun by him.

I have spoken with people who have known him personally for many years - some of them all their lives.

Just one more thing - year before last, when my husband and I were both drawing unemployment (BIG depression in our industry) don't think for a minute that I would have hesitated to quote something for the defense industry if I thought that we could manage to actualy do the work.

For the past year, I have spent many many hours on the government procurement website searching for ANY type of contract that we might be competitive in.

Luckily, for us, this year was okay and next year looks to be pretty good, so I haven't been searching there in a while. BUT, if working in the defense industry would get my husband and employees to work AND we had any inkling of how to go about getting those contracts, I would certainly give it a try.

My brother-in-law works at a nearby factory. After 911, they lost alot of business and terminated all their employees. He was only jobless for a short time as the factory called him back within a few months. The workload was spotty at first but at least he was working. One comment he made was this "We may have to start packing explosives into those axles and selling them as weapons." The point is that that was where the market was at that time.

[Code_Name_D]

121. No, they are not the same.

I have no problem with selling grains. But I DO have a problem with some one selling a war, so they could then turn around and sell military contracts.

That is exactly what Cheeny is doing now! Do you have a problem with Cheeny doing this? If you don't, then why do you support Clark when Cheeny is doing it now? If you do, than you are being hypocritical for critising Cheeny, and Lionizing Clark for doing the same thing.

Clark is not anti war. He is as Hakish as they come. And should he be voted into offive, Iraq will esculate, just like Veitnam did,

[democratreformed]

122. Could you elaborate more because

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

Clark sold a war?

[TLM]

123. He did in fact push the IRaq war...

his only issue was the time table. He is a big hawk regarding US miltiary might and not only said he'd vote yes on the IWR but advised members of congress to vote yes on it.

I have less of a problem with a company trying to get a military contract than I do with a military policy insider like Clark selling his influence to companies to get them contracts that basicly take advantage of our war on terror or defense policy in general.

That exactly what Cheney did with halliburton.

[Renew Deal]

23. Here we go again.

This is another horse race that will probably be within 10 votes no matter how long it stays up.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. when this poll gets to 500 votes

it will be interesting to compare the Dean vs. everybody else margin.

[_NorCal_D_]

27. Yes it will

B-)

[KC21304]

28. I voted for Kerry but the number did not change,

and it will not let me vote again. Katherine Harris running this poll ? LOL

[_NorCal_D_]

31. Really?

Hmmmm :shrug:

[robsul82]

34. I didn't do it!

I swear! :D

Later.

RJS

[ozone_man]

43. Kerry ballot has had a few hanging chads

causing them to show up as Dean votes for some reason. ;-)

[mb7588a]

53. Didn't change for me either.

[blm]

71. Figures. I doubt the media polls, too.

They intended to give an impression that didn't match reality. But the public was only delivered what the media wanted them to hear. They'll keep reinforcing those impressions until they become a forced reality.

[TSIAS]

29. Dean (nt)

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

33. Come on...

I have to step up to the plate here. I'm a Dean supporter but the other candidates are completely worthwhile. I would happily vote for Clark, Kerry, Kucinich, whoever gets the nomination. Let's please stop attacking the other candidates, because I think the people who support other candidates are getting majorly turned off to Dean because of the bashing of other candidates by some of us. I think we should take a page from the Clark playbook on this one and try to stay away from that kind of thing --- it's completely counterproductive.

Just my 2 cents.

[MuseRider]

36. Thank you

I dropped my support of Dean because Kucinich got in the race. I still liked Dean but K fit better. I do tend to get mad when I see all the gnome stuff and as much as it may not be fair it does affect how I feel. Human nature I suppose. Anyway, we need to grow up a bit and do our fighting over policy and I am trying to have a thicker skin.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

38. Agreed

Besides, I'm 5'7" and on behalf of short people everywhere, I protest!

Seriously though, is it my imagination or have things around here gotten REALLY ugly lately? I mean, there were always threads that were critical of the individual candidates, but I'm seeing a viciousness lately --- from all sides --- that I'm a little taken aback by. Maybe it's just my imagination but it sure seems that way to me.

I'm not saying there can't be disagreement or dissent, mind you, but there's a lot of rage in the air and I think we all need to calm down and stop attacking each other. It's not very helpful to say the least.

[MuseRider]

39. Yup

I am tired of reacting and find myself making the decision daily if I should venture into some threads. It has hurt my ability to make good decisions since there is much info to be gained when you read them. My problem I suppose. Arguing is one thing, being mean is another. Hey, I am only 5'2" and that is short even for a woman. I find stature does not mean much to me. Anyway, thanks Dean man from a Kucinich woman.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

61. Me too

I made the mistake of posting a thread a couple of days ago to the effect that whenever I read negative posts about Dean it makes me grow more attached to him. My larger idea was to make people aware (no matter who they support) that attacking another candidate often has that effect for a lot of people, and as such is pretty counterproductive.

The response I got was mostly more attacks on Dean, which was not tthat surprising, but also personal attacks against me and all of his supporters (words like "zombie" and "lemming" were used). It was pretty fucked up to say the least, but in retrospect I probably would have been better off not saying which candidate I support and simply posting a general plea for people to be more civil to each other and show some common courtesy. None of us here is supporting Stalin, you know?

It would never occur to me to candidate-bash. There are certainly candidates I don't like, but that doesn't mean I have to talk shit about them, and it certainly doesn't mean I should talk shit about his or her supporters. I have absolutely no understanding of why people feel like they need to engage in that sort of thing. I want what's best for the party and I want to beat Bush, and I assume that's how everyone else here feels too. I hope we can all get away from all this negative, counterproductive bullshit and re-focus on the real problem.

Pathetic plea over.

[JohnKleeb]

64. That Stalin comment was really crazy

No offense to y'all but I kinda chuckle when one of you all call DK too short, being our candiates are both short, and may I add not a damn thing wrong with it, I noticed that you said you were 5'7, thats about DK's height, I am 6'0 even about and I dont really care, its all about the vision to me, hence my support of Kucinich.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

68. That Stalin comment was real

I read one post last night that compared Dean to Stalin, no joke, and that those of us who supported Dean were similar to Stalin's supporters. Really. I'm serious.

EDIT: BTW, I never said anything about Kucinich's height --- you may be thinking about someone else.

[JohnKleeb]

70. I saw it Danny

I think people supported Stalin out of fear, you guys are just devoted to your candiate and his efforts, big difference between that and all hail glorious comrade Stalin.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

74. Thank you, that's certainly how I feel about it

I'm glad you saw that --- that was just completely out of hand. I thought maybe I was hallucinating or something.

I will be so fucking happy when the primaries are over so we can move on from all this silly crap and just unite behind one candidate. The nonstop negativity is kind of lifeforce-draining.

[sangh0]

75. Actually, the Russians saw Stalin as their savior

Many Russians loved Stalin. Many still do.

And in the South, many slaves loved their masters. Strange, but true.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

80. And your point is?

Many Democrats loved FDR.

Many teenage girls loved Bon Jovi.

Many small children love their parents.

Many husbands love their wives.

Many puppies love playing "Fetch".

Sha-ZAAAAMMM!

[robsul82]

41. Blahhhh...

...I'm 5'7" and I still tease DK over being an elf. Relax.

Later.

RJS

[bobthedrummer]

44. Kick.

:dem:

[bobthedrummer]

49. Kick

:dem:

[bobthedrummer]

55. So far Dean is a constant 6% lead over Clark, Kucinich has momentum

n/t

[CWebster]

62. So the question becomes

If it is a race between Dean and Clark, Clark benefits. I could understand the Kerry voters, but the Kucinich voters... So much for the ideological purity of the Left.

[robsul82]

63. To that end...

...perhaps we should be cheering Edwards on in SC. If Dean doesn't go full-mast on it.

Later.

RJS

[bobthedrummer]

65. If just Dean/Clark this Kucinich voter is solidly for Dr. Dean

:hi:

[RandomUser]

67. There are Kucinich voters for Clark too

If you check one of the other polls, there were Kucinich voters who spoke up and said they supported Clark.

[JohnKleeb]

69. seconds that

I would do. I wouldnt hesistate honestly. Personally I think most of us have Dean or Kerry as number 2 picks, why I think its because a good amount of us like Dean's opposition to the war and fundraising techniques and Kerry's all around liberal record. Just saying if it came to that, I would support your candiate. Dont judge us ok.

[HFishbine]

72. Kucinich is in and Gephardt is out? (eom)

?

[bobthedrummer]

77. Based on previous straw polls final four here @ DU yep.

see post 15.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

79. Yes this was a great way to cover the Clark vote in the Dean/Clark poll

BTW I see Kerry has "surged" to 11% :)

[RandomUser]

81. You should make a final two

If you were interested in how they fare against each other in a direct DU matchup.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

82. Cage match! Cage match!

One man enter! Two man leave!

[Bertrand]

90. Im sure you will find a formula where Dean beats Clark here

lol

[bobthedrummer]

95. Only about 1/1,000 of registered DUers have participated

LOL!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

98. I don't think there's ever more than 1,000 people on here at a given time

and they all don't vote.... meanwhile, Kerry is virtually "surging" to 11%!!! LOL!

[bobthedrummer]

100. Dinner time kick.

:dem:

[MaryBear]

101. I'll support whichever of these wins the nomination.

Thank you to those who offered thoughtful info on Clark.

To those of you who made juvenile attacks, knock it off!
No offense intended, but... You waste my time.

I'll vote Kucinich in the primary, most likely.

[Field Of Dreams]

104. Clark

n/t

[bobthedrummer]

105. Kick.

:dem:

[IndianaGreen]

108. You missed Gephardt

As much as I loath the man, Gep has the potential of being in the top four.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

109. not on DU

which is what the point of this was- to pit DU's favorite 4 against each other.

[indigo32]

110. Clark

EOM

[LittleApple81]

113. I am so sorry he started so late. Any idea if he is going to be able

to catch up? I am ABB (praying Lieberman is not it)... but I really, really, really, like Clark.

[Kazak]

116. Kucinich or Dean...

I prolly won't know which name I'll check until it's I've done it...