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Why do people who care about Civil Rights encourage avoidance?

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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:48 AM
Original message
Why do people who care about Civil Rights encourage avoidance?
Edited on Sun Nov-09-03 10:51 AM by KaraokeKarlton
It's my feeling that too many of the people claiming to lead the way in the battle for Civil Rights are enabling avoidance of discussing the issues and ultimately helping sweep the issues under the rug. The Confederate Flag is a perfect example of how this plays out. The battle flag's origination really has nothing to do with slavery and racism at all. It was adopted on the battlefield simply to prevent soldier from killing their own. The vast majority of the soldiers in the Confederate uniform were not ever slave owners. They were poor whites who were also victims of those wealthy slave owners. They didn't have any real political influence or power and those who did pulled them into the whole mess. Put yourself in the shoes of the typical Confederate soldier for just a minute. You don't have much, a meager home, a family you're struggling to take care of. An army from the north is heading your way and you have two choices...you can sit at home and wait for them to come and see the fear in the eyes of your wife and kids, mother, sisters, aunts, grandparents...or you go fight to defend them from potential harm. For me, the choice is easy. You do whatever you can to make sure your family is safe, even if it means dying in battle. So, it's pretty easy to understand why that flag has genuine significance for the families of those Confederate soldiers. Okay, lets fast forward to the Civil Rights Movement and desegregation. The same wealthy, powerful and politically influential relatives of the plantation owners (in a good many cases) decide to try to manipulate and victimize the poor white southerners again by essentially hijacking the battle flag. The KKK hijacks it too. These politicians and hate groups KNEW full well that doing this would cause heated division. They KNEW blacks would be offended by what they were using the flag to symbolize and they KNEW the poor white relatives of those Confederate soldiers would defend the flag when anyone attacked it, because of what it means to them. And like a bunch of puppets, here we are today STILL giving all the power, influence and control to the same kind of people who have caused and kept the division going. By letting this happen, those who fight for Civil Rights are enabling those hate groups and racists. The arguing over the flag does one thing that ensures racism and other bias exist...it gives people an excuse to avoid addressing the REAL issues. This is what the KKK and racists are counting on...and what I would really like to know is why the heck do people allow it? Our country NEEDS a REAL dialogue about race as well as other things like gay rights. As long as the leaders and the people continue to allow for these "go nowhere" distractions and diversions, groups like the KKK win because there is no progress. It's time for this to change. No more excuses to avoid talking and dealing with the issues. It's a total waste of time and energy.
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Since Dean opened the
can of worms he should go ahead with it.Of course he want because he wants to win. Some will say he can't do anything if he doesn't win well, with an all Repug congress even if he won he still want be able to do anything. hHe could be a potential hero if he was willing to take the risk. Even dumb George is taking a risk being used as a mouthpiece. If Dean wants to just play it safe then he is just another Washington Insider.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. It is about race
because those southerners brought those flags back out during Jim Crow. This is when the flags started to go on government buildings, to show southern pride and to fight desegregation.
Jim Crow was about race, therefore the flag is too. Now you may have some of these flag wavers claim that it is about there heritage and some of there good friends are black, but please don't be bamboozled like Howard Dean.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why can't it (the discussion) be about freedom
Edited on Sun Nov-09-03 11:23 PM by drfemoe
55,000 lost votes in florida in 2000...

http://www.ericblumrich.com/gta.html << view flash

Let's don't forget who the real culprits are ...

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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. oh, like the freedom to incite violence? reall good there fella'
go back and read oliver wendel holmes

either the confederate battle flag is a flag representing the CSA, a foreign nation or an emblem of open, armed, and brutally bloody insurrection against the US. in neither situation can a case be made that it evokes american patriotism.

there isnt a white man alive who flies it that doesn't know what negative effect it has on a black man who sees it, and what is more, these white guys dont give a flying fuck either. it is an in-your-face statement towards blacks. they fly it not as a source of national pride, but white pride.

this is why you see it flown in white supremicist camps in idaho and oregon, neither of which seceded from the union.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Like the freedom to
read the entire subject line where you will see 'it' redefined to 'dicussion' .. I'm not debating that flag again. But I NEVER said it evokes american patriotism.

How did you like the flash link? IT refers to the freedom to vote and be counted .. something 55,000 mostly black voters didn't have in 2000.

Why isn't that more important to those who are targets for this kind of disenfranchment than a continual focus and moan about the injustice of hatred. Anyone with any moral consciousness knows BIGOTRY is WRONG. Hopefully they also know that the world is full of injustices, at least to this point in time.

But while the separate camps are so distracted by -fill-in-the-blank- the thieves sneak in and conquer both. I just know that if my vote were stolen, I would mad as hell and not about what flag was waving. Because if your vote doesn't count, you don't get to choose the flag, or what it stands for.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. This is exactly part of the problem rather than part of the solution
Please don't take this as a personal attack, because it's NOT intended to be one.

The attitude you're taking on this plays right into the hands of those who don't want the racial divide to be addressed and overcome. You're buying into the very enabling of avoidance that I spoke of in my first post. People who want to change things have a very difficult choice to make if they really want change. They are going to have to utilize every last bit of patience, understanding and MUTUAL tolerance and ignore the symbols and barriers thrown in the path to disrupt progress. We can either be tools manipulated to remain part of the problem or we can stop allowing this enabling of avoidance and be part of the solution.

I choose NOT to give the power to hate groups. They really don't deserve it and as long as things like the battle flag are allowed to be used as a method of racial of division, they win and we LET them win.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. As Fannie Mae said
"I am sick and tired of being sick and tired", we have overlooked the code words and the symbols thinking that they are just saying these things to get elected and once we give them what they want, its like the same old, same old.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. This has nothing to do with politicians
It's all about you, me and the rest of us average everday pee-ons who suffer from the division caused by society falling for the way the leaders play into avoidance. We have to stop it.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. remove
Edited on Mon Nov-10-03 12:00 AM by drfemoe
edit: deleted
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thank you.
And how racist is THAT? How "coded" is THAT?

And the truly bizarre thing is that all Dean was "telling Southerns to DO" was vote Democratic.

He knew exactly what he was doing, Edwards did.

Eloriel
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Dean is The Next MLK
Listen, I'm not sure why you are still spinning this, because everyone else seems bored with it. Don't pretend Dean is some visionary on race relations. No one believes it.

Here's the breakdown. The confederate flag represents many things to many people - a way of life, memorial of lost soldiers, etc. But among those, for one group of people it represents 400 years of brutally enslaving their ancestors. There's no getting around that.

I'm all for encouraging dialogue, as well as reaching out to poor, ignorant Southerners (Dean will show them the error of their ways), but the whole point (besides the condescesion and stereotyping) was that there was no need to re-open this wound. Don't pretend otherwise.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. As if Edward's comments wouldn't open the same wound.
.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I think there IS a need to re-open it
You can't heal a wound like oppression by avoiding it and treating it like tampax with an "out of sight, out of mind" mentality! The only way to REALLY mend the division is to talk about it, including the feelings, fears, pains and insults of the past. You can't understand the other perspective of something if you don't discuss it openly and candidly. As long as everyone tries not to offend or be offended there will be no meaningful discussion. Solutions to problems this big don't come without pain and discomfort. People NEED to realize this.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. Since the Confederacy had a draft,
your poor citizen soldier had even less choice than you mentioned.

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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. People who care about civil rights....
understand this:

There is a misperception that many of the of Southern states have flown some version of the Confederate flag without interruption since the Civil War. For the most part, the Southern states that raised the Confederate battle flag or incorporated it into their state flag did so in the early part of the 20th century or during the 1950s and 1960s, in a defiant stand against integration. Denmark Groover, the Georgia House floor leader who in 1956 sponsored the legislation to add the Southern Cross into the state flag, freely admitted as much. He maintained that he and many of Georgia's legislators at the time were staunch segregationists who had urged that the Confederate symbol be added to the flag as a protest against federal integration orders.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate2.html

It doesn't matter what it once stood for. What matters is what it stands for now. To not acknowledge that is avoidance and diversion.



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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. What A Bunch Of Horseshit.
The Constitution of the Confederate States of America, Adopted March 11, 1861

Those who shamelessly wave the flag should be proud enough to display and stand by the constitution it once represented, including this passage:

(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Or this:

(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

The rest of the constitution is pretty much a carbon copy of the original Constitution, except it was unambiguous in its aims to preserve the institution of "negro slavery".
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. The confederate state was founded to maintain slavery
The confederate flag is its flag.

What is so hard about this?
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
19. What do you suggest?
Should Blacks suppress their warranted resentment (just squish it down into a small, dense ball and secrete it at the pit of our soul) and never again broach the subject of the confederate battle flag? Yet again, we should compromise for the good of everyone else? (I say everyone else because we have already compromised ourselves into a powerless bargaining unit.)

Nine out of 10 of the people dismissing any complaints about the issue don't give a rat's ass about what Black people care about anyway. I mean that sincerely. They just want their candidate to win the nomination.

I'll ask again for the fourth or fifth time: Can Al or Carol reach out to the NOI, the New Panther Party, Louis Farrakhan, or MOVE without any bitchin' and moaning from other Democrats?
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-10-03 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. In my opinion, most of these people are saying "I like Dean"
They're just turning themselves inside out to justify his mistake. He has the right idea, but he made a mistake in using a symbol *associated with slavery* to make his overture to poor Southerners. He could just as well have made his overtures without it.
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