Once Bush is OUT, we need 'Truth & Reconciliation' and Re-education Effort

[lostnfound]

Another thread on the Neocon addiction of the general public brought to mind this concern:
How do we ever get the resources to reverse the indoctrination brought on by 20 years of very-well-funded conservative think tanks?

The typical American can cite chapter and verse of:
trickle-down economics, how free-markets-can-save-the-world, or why big-government-is-evil,
yet:
has no clue why corporate power must be curtailed; why media and utilities deserve special attention; or the extent to which human rights and property rights collide in lesser developed nations.

How important is it for major elements of the critiques by Zinn or Chomsky to be widely accepted or incorporated into the teaching of American history, whether in the classroom or in TV mini-series (like Roots)?

I think it's absolutely necessary. But such views are met with very hostile opposition from the dyed-in-the-wool, head-in-the-sand, banner-wavers...how can they ever find their way into the mainstream?

[david_vincent]

1. Overt attempts at "re-education"

will be derided as neo-Stalinist, and rightfully so. I see your point, but have no suggestions of my own other than to air the hope that as the real effects of Governor Bush's class warfare begin to be felt - if the so-called housing bubble bursts, for instance - then a lot of dittoheads will be eating humble pie. They'll have to because they won't have anything else to eat.
It's a grim speculation, but it seems that those who can't reason are unable to learn by any other means than cold, hard experience. The Enron (et al.) scandal has, in fact, made many people open their eyes.

[leftofthedial]

2. we need a purge

First, we need to get private and corporate money completely OUT of politics.

Then, we need to get these RW media and think tank charlatans OUT of public life (and out of the political "gene pool"). Criminal indictments should be possible against many of them under the Patriot Act.

Then we need to leverage public broadcasting and private-public media partnerships to fund 8 years of systematic RW myth busting, truth telling and the creation of a new, progressive popular wisdom.

President Kucinich can then work on his agenda for America.

[bearfartinthewoods]

8. get private and corporate money completely OUT of politics.

Dean's decision makes that highly unlikely in the forseeable future.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. What is needed is a South African-style

Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Finally exorcise the spectres haunting America. If not justice, the high crimes need at least an accounting.

[RichM]

4. It's terribly important that those critiques receive wide exposure - BUT

it's also absolutely impossible that they ever could. The critiques themselves, & similar ones by other writers, make clear why. Namely, the class & power structure of society determine cultural values. They determine what is "acceptable." These values are not class-neutral; rather, they function to assure that the established social order is maintained. The ruling elite controls the media & sets the standards for the socialization process of education. They will never allow the dissemination of ideas that would breed challenges to their dominance. (Why should they? They have it awfully good as it is, & would be nuts to let anyone to mess it up.)

Look what happened this week when CBS -- hardly a den of leftwing intrigue -- wanted to broadcast a miniseries on Reagan that was less than 100% flattering. It wasn't all that critical -- it was simply less than 100% flattering. It was shut down -- and newspapers like the NY Times sided with the cultural censors!!

This shows how hopeless it is, to imagine that high-quality critiques of American society & capitalism could ever "find their way into the mainstream." Suppose you wanted to make a very scholarly documentary on Karl Marx, that treated some of his critique very favorably. Or on the 1967 speech of ML King where he connected American imperialism abroad with the poverty & race clashes at home. Or on Chomsky and Zinn.

Can you imagine the US media giving air time to these guys, who are going to explain exactly why most of what you hear on the US media is a pack of lies, aimed at making it easier for the wealthy & powerful to continue deluding & fleecing the rest of us?

This will never happen without revolutionary conditions coming into existence. It can't happen without plenty of organization, considerable resources, & a well-developed "battle plan." It's very important & terribly desirable that it should happen, but it's important & desirable for the very reasons that make it impossible that it could happen. The best that can be hoped for within the framework of today's society, is to get occasional airings of the Zinns, Chomskys, & Parentis on C-span or little tiny channels like "Free Speech TV."

Also: American brainwashing & indoctrination has been going on for a lot longer than 20 years. (I know you were speaking just of the RW think tanks, & you're right.) But it's really a deeply-rooted thing in American culture, that can be traced all the way back to the nation's founding.

[lostnfound]

11. Is that the BEST that can be hoped for?

The right wing hoped for a lot back in the 70s and they have helped to transform the way that the American populice looks at itself and at the ideal of America.

Today, the desire to protect the rights of corporations is right up there with Mom and apple pie. Many believe that "big government interference with corporations" is a much worse evil than corporate polluters running rampant.

The spores of right-wing thinking have been spread from sea to shining sea.

My selection of words -- 'truth & reconciliation' commissions and 'reeducation' campaigns -- was intense, I admit; but the resources devoted to pushing public thought to the right have been major, and we can't pretend that throwing an oar or two into the water will change the direction of this massive river.

Seems that turning the energy of the right back upon itself (like in karate?) would be most effective.

On edit: P.S. to all -- I never said 'camps'!!

[Imajika]

5. Wonderful

"Once Bush is OUT, we need 'Truth & Reconciliation' and Re-education Effort"

Ah yes, re-education.

Perhaps re-education camps? We could look to North Korea or harken back to the days of Stalin for ideas.

"How important is it for major elements of the critiques by Zinn or Chomsky to be widely accepted or incorporated into the teaching of American history"

Not at all important if you ask me.

Anyone who wants to read Chomsky or Zinn can go right out and buy their books.

You don't "re-educate" people because they don't share your values or buy into your political philsophy.

Imajika

[RichM]

6. I wonder if you've considered the unintentional irony in this post.

You're attempting to sound a note of patronizing sarcasm. To achieve this, you need a metaphor that dramatizes totalitarian excess. So you naturally choose Stalin and North Korea -- official state enemies of the United States.

You assume the US is at least relatively pure, while these other regimes are evil incarnate. To what extent have you really questioned these assumptions? Have you ever wondered whether US state propaganda has accurately portrayed these other societies, & accurately described itself? Doesn't that seem like an important thing to wonder about, rather than simply taking what the US says about the world, at face value?

The point of reading authors like Chomsky and Zinn is that they encourage one to think outside of the official US version of the world. You are saying this is "not at all important." How can such a thing not be important? Do you not believe there is such a thing as US state propaganda?

As leftist authors since Marx have noted, the value system of any society reflects the interests of that society's ruling class. When the US demonizes these "famous tyrants" (Stalin, Noriega, Saddam, Fidel, etc) it's not done in the interest of pure truth. It's done because it serves powerful interests here, to do so. The Cold War made many fortunes for arms manufacturers, yet was based on a grotesque exaggeration of the danger posed to the US by the USSR. Do you really think it was wise, for our population to be force-fed decades of scare stories about Soviet intent?

In your attempt to dismiss the importance of writers like Chomsky & Zinn, you're basically saying that you think the US government and media are so truthful & reliable, that there's really no need to consider alternative viewpoints. It's hard to imagine how anyone who's paid attention to the last few years could maintain that position.

PS - the "irony" of your post is that you use the standard US propaganda view of the world to claim that the official US version of things is trustworthy (hence free of propaganda). Presumably, if you accept the US view of the USSR, you would think that Andrei Sakharov was a great guy because he was a Soviet dissident. But you don't think it's important to listen to American dissidents at all. That only makes sense if you believe that "US = good and truthful; US state enemies = bad and deceitful."

[Imajika]

9. RichM

"I wonder if you've considered the unintentional irony in this post."

Nope. I thought I was pretty straightforward. Quite frankly I am not altogther clear what it is your on about.

"So you naturally choose Stalin and North Korea -- official state enemies of the United States."

And? My point has absolutely nothing to do whatever with who Stalin and North Korea are enemies with.

Stalin was a brutal communist dictator who had "re-education" camps. North Korea is a brutal communist state which has re-education camps. Here are two examples of leaders and nations with "re-education" camps. Most people the world over recognize that both Stalin and North Korea are examples of leaders and governments a person would NOT want to live under (perhaps because most people don't want to be sent to "re-education" camps).

My point, re-education camps are associated with wicked people and regimes - regardless of whose enemy they are, and we should not be running around calling for American "re-education" of any kind so we can drill Chomsky and Zinn into peoples minds.

It is a pretty straightforward point I think.

"You assume the US is at least relatively pure, while these other regimes are evil incarnate."

I'm sorry RichM, but if you believe that the United States is not a far better place for its citizens to live and prosper than the Soviet Union under Stalin or North Korea then I am afraid your so far off into the lunatic fringe that I doubt we will be able to rationally debate this.

"To what extent have you really questioned these assumptions?"

Oy. Are you actually serious here? Have you seriously deluded yourself into believing that maybe Stalin and North Korea are not that bad? That the horrific murder, starvation and collectivization in Russia at the hands of Stalin was US propaganda? That North Korea's starving, tormented peoples living in a land almost devoid of electricity is a State Department ruse? If you believe these things I'd say your off in a bizarre fantasy world.

"The point of reading authors like Chomsky and Zinn is that they encourage one to think outside of the official US version of the world"

Thats great. People are free to buy whatever they want to read. I don't care for Chomsky or Zinn. I think they are both on the left fringe of the political scale. I don't think that Americans should be "re-educated" to that point of view. I don't think Americans should be "re-educated" at all. Your free to buy Chomsky and tell everyone about it. Let individuals decide if they are interested enough to buy it themselves.

"Do you really think it was wise, for our population to be force-fed decades of scare stories about Soviet intent?"

Yes. The Soviet Union was a totalitarian dictatorship that its own people overthrew the minute the regime showed enough weakness for them to do so. The same thing would happen in North Korea or Cuba if their police states began to lose their grip. The only way a system like Soviet communism could survive was if it did not have to compete - so yes, I think the Soviets had an intent that ran against US interests. I am a US citizen, if a superpower is actively working to undermine the United States, I think we should consider them hostile.

"the "irony" of your post is that you use the standard US propaganda view of the world to claim that the official US version of things is trustworthy (hence free of propaganda)."

Okay, are you saying Stalin was not a bad guy? Do you not believe Stalin was a brutal leader who murdered millions of his people? Have you been to Russia? I've spent quite a bit of time there and that society long ago recognized what a monster Stalin was. Perhaps you should go if you've not yet been.

Do you think North Korea is really not a bad place to live? Perhaps the US just made everything up about the re-education camps, the system which divides it's population into categories beginning with who is loyal to the state and who isn't. Is it just propaganda that the North Korean government can not even feed its own people?

"that there's really no need to consider alternative viewpoints. It's hard to imagine how anyone who's paid attention to the last few years could maintain that position."

See, the problem is not about me considering alternative viewpoints, the problem is that you don't accept that which 90% fully understands and recognizes. No one wants to live under a Stalin, and few if any want to live under the tyranny in place in North Korea. There is a reason for that - "re-education" camps are a good place to start.

Imajika

[Don_G]

7. Apply The Fairness Standards To The Media

Have a Randi Rhodes for every Oxy Rush and give NPR back it's funding. Apply the same standards to television and make it costly to maintain an empire like Chear Channel.

[tritsofme]

10. You just got one problem there,

the 1st Amendment.

What if they get back in power and institute "re-re-education" camps, im sure you'll support them 100%