I think Dean was RIGHT in his comments about the Confederate Flag

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

I realize that Dean's comments seem harsh and unpolished, but I think he's touched on something that we ignore at our own peril.

As we saw in yesterday's gubernatorial elections, the South is still very much behind the Republican party, and there's no reason to believe this will change in one year's time, barring some unforeseen issue. The guys in pickup trucks with Confederate flag stickers on the bumpers VOTE, and in large enough numbers to make a difference apparently.

We can either address this reality and try to reach out to these voters, or we can ignore it and very possibly see a repeat of 2000. Maybe Dean could have chosen his words better, but the reality he was addressing is much larger than the words he used, in my opinion.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

3. Ugh

I hope if it gets locked it's only because it's a dupe.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polpilot]

29. Dean speaks the truth and for the benefit of the democratic party. The

results will reflect this.

Dean...'04...Rebel with a Cause

[Bonobo]

16. I have to agree (please read before you judge)

Look, we all know there's a huge difference in the subtext of that infamous Dean statement depending upon who says it. If Jesse Helms said it, it's one thing, but if Dean says it you must admit (if you are intellectually honest) that it was intended to be taken in a completely different way.

Like Dean said, these gentlemen from the South who are economically disenfranchised (read the *R* word) need to vote in their economic interest. Only the Dems will ever represent that interest and so we NEED to take them back under the political tent. I'm sick of seeing these guys voting for Repukes that are just going to SCREW them when they get the chance!!

I personally have no love lost for the above-mentioned types in pickup trucks, but that really has nothing to do with it. It's time to take back what should be our territory in terms of pure economically-driven politics and spank the baby president's ass.

BTW, we sacrifice nothing by taking them into our tent. We do not sacrifice our personal ethics simply because we vote for the same candidate. People who are bigots will always be bigots. We will not change them and they will never change us, so why not just vote at least in our own economic interests and try to staunch the flow of blood of the working and middle class.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Which of the several active threads on this topic would your post not fit

into?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

6. Whatever...

I'll post this to one of those. Never mind.

[MartinAmbroseForan]

4. I don't think it will work.

They guys in the pick up trucks are not going to hear his statement and say amongst themselves:

"Hey, that there guy from Ver-mont really touched my heart when he mentioned my confederate flag on mah pick-me-up truck. He's the best danged Yankee you ever saw!"

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

8. I'm not saying his remark was for their benefit

I'm saying that he touched on something that we Dems, who are apparently not too popular in the South, need to think about and address. That's all. I'm not saying white Southerners will vote for him on the basis of his statement.

[kicknitup]

22. He should have said,

I want to be the candidate for the guys in the south who like to deer hunt, fish and watch Nascar. That would have been less offensive to everyone.

[Monte Carlo]

5. Dean will have to work on his nuances if he wants the job of jobs.

Presidents not named Bush have their every word put under a microscope by some very-Republican types. And then, there's the flak he will get from his own party for insensitivity. I don't want to pick on Dean, but one wrong word can be a spark that starts a fire. And we ALL know how loaded the Conferderate flag issue is.

[Cha]

9. "nuances" is the new euphemism

for lying!

[Monte Carlo]

20. So Dean needs to lie more?

I don't get it.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

10. Very true

But once again, to clarify, I was talking about the fact that he has given us Dems an issue to mull over, which is why we can't seem to get a foothold in the South. We have to start adressing that or we won't win, simple as that.

Just my opinion.

[Monte Carlo]

18. No, I agree, we need all the votes we can get.

It would be really, really hard to resolve the differences between those who have the Confederate flag on their vehicles with urban African-American black folks.

I say, we transcend the differences. None of us want to live in antagonism, the Democrats must offer a clear plan with a solid foundation to attract everyone.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

23. You got it

I don't have any answers on this one either, I'd just like to say. But one thing that struck me as false when people talked about Gore was that his campaign was inherently shoddy because he didn't win Tennessee, his home state. While I certainly will not argue that he ran a lousy campaign, I feel like these people overlook the fact that the entire south went for Bush. I don't think we can keep blaming Gore, or Nader, or Katharine Harris, or whoever for that one. There has been some kind of fundamental shift in the prevailing attitude among the majority of southern voters. Unless we really try to take an unjaundiced look at that then we're going to keep losing on the national level. Personally speaking, the fact that the partial-brith abortion ban was signed into law today means to me that unless we figure out how to court the south (without alienating everyone else of course) then this will become a country that I will not want to live in much longer.

[Monte Carlo]

30. I admire what I think Dean was trying to say.

There is nothing fundamentally different about the people who live in the South. They drive their cars, they pay their taxes, the get up and go to work in the morning. For God sakes, if someone in this country just started focusing on the common instead of obsessing about our small and petty differences, they'd have a willing army. Sure, the devil is in the details, but good ideas are good ideas.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

32. Thank you

My sentiments exactly. I want to send you a box of cigars. While we Dems argue amongst ourselves, the Tom DeLay's are taking over the world, literally.

[Monte Carlo]

37. Right, so we may need to go back to the drawing board...

... to build a plan, so we can explain exactly why people should vote Democrat. Right now, the Democratic Party can be best summed up as a patchwork of positions on varying issues, without any central theme. The Republicans, on the other hand, are know exactly what they want and how they are going to get it. Whoever wins the nomination had better be prepared to lead the Democrats in the 21st century, and shout out its soul loudly and clearly. I've heard things like "We Are All in This Together". I like that one.

[Closer]

11. WooHoo, maybe it will stay

I guess you have some power that I don't in having yours stay.

Anyway, here's what I posted that was locked concerning the same topic:

Just curious, who here thinks Dean was wrong in his comments?

A quick preface, this *excludes* all of you here (and there are many) who will answer this question out of mere spite and jealousy of Dean even if you know that his comments were harmless - you know who you are, and you can imagine what I and others here think of you. It ain't pretty.


But those here who are more balanced (both mentally and ideologically) do you NOT agree with Dean that the Democrats have ceded the South and southern whites to the Republicans? And moreover, that whether we like, and or agree with, "guys who drive pickup trucks with rebel flags" that we need their votes too? How is he off base? How in GOD's name is he OFF BASE? Moreover, how is specifically saying "white men who drive pick up trucks with confederate flags" a representation of all southerners? Did you think of all southerners when he said that? Because I certainly didn't. When he said that, you know what I thought of? I thought of white southern men who drive pickup trucks with the rebel flag stickers. That's who I thought of. *Gasp* And yes, while I certainly don't agree with their sticker choice, I most certainly would urge them to vote Democratic and NOT Republican, because guess what, THEIR children don't have health insurance either. They're losing their jobs, too. Their sons and daughters are being slaughtered in Iraq, too. What has voting Republican for 30 years done for them?

So again, tell me and others here, how Dean was even SLIGHTLY off base? Please, I really wanna hear what you come up with. Humor me.

To those of you here (mentioned at the top) who are having a field day with this virtual gang bang (call it a flag flog) on Dean merely because you support another candidate and hope that this will be the one thing that brings Dean down (makes him "implode" as Kerry would mutter), I say two things to you: 1) you AND your candidate of choice are pathetic for having to rely on such a frivolous comment of DEAN'S to boost YOUR candidate and 2) you are DEAD wrong if you think this will have a negative impact on Dean's candidacy. Watch his numbers soar from this extended publicity. Just watch.


And know this: Voters don't like bullies. Voters don't like opportunists. Voters don't like sleezy political games. Voters don't like personal attacks.


Oh, and yes, one last thing: Dean WILL still get the SEIU endorsement. Afterall, isn't that what this is all about?


You bet it is!

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

19. "I guess you have some power that I don't in having yours stay."

People just love me and want to be affiliated with me because I'm so fabulous and interesting.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Well, you're right about two things.

"Voters don't like bullies. Voters don't like opportunists."

Dean's a bully and an opportunist. With his recent show of arrogance and stubbornness compounding his foolish comments, I think he's toast.

And, no, the SEIU endorsement is not what it's all about. I want a nominee who will win the White House. Do you? Or are you going to keep supporting Dean no matter what happens?

I realize that my candidate, Dennis Kucinich, is not doing well thus far, being perceived as too far to the left. I'll still vote for him in the primary and still hope for the best but I'm taking a serious look at the other candidates. Dean supporters should be doing the same. Dean has become a liability.

[dansolo]

34. The irony of Dean's statement

is that if anything, the comment could just as easily be construed as insulting to Southerners, by suggesting that they were racist. I also think that it is a little disingenuous to criticize Dean, when Kerry, et. al. voted FOR the Iraq resolution in a transparent attempt to appeal to the same exact voters. At least Dean is a lot more honest about it.

[DBoon]

12. His intent was right-on

We need a party that unites working and poor people. Rednecks are invited.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

14. Thank you

That's all I meant to say. The question is, why are "rednecks" declining the invitation?

[Lugnut]

53. That's exactly...

The way I interpreted Dean's comments. I think it's the Confederate flag part that has inflamed some people since that's a controversial issue in it's own right. I saw it as an inclusive statement. :shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Dean was INCORRECT in his statement fundamentally

The party that has CAPITALIZED on RACE as an issue for thirty years is the Democratic party. They have capitlized by taking the correct tack and working to help erase the injustices perpetrated by that Confederate flag and everything it stood for.

The party that has capitalized on RACISM for thirty years is the Republican party.

If Dean can't distinguish between the two and see where that is why his insensitive symbolism was hurtful then I have a problem with that.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

17. Assuming that's true,

and the Republican party is a racist party (and I'm not saying it isn't), that doesn't change the fact that they have a very strong hold on the South that we need to start looking at how we're going to break it. Whatever we're doing now, obviously, is not working. As I said above, Dean could certainly have chosen his words better --- I'm not disputing that. But the larger issue is that we need to figure out how, as a party, we can give poor Southern whites a reason to vote for us. WE know it's in their best interests, so why don't they?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I have no issue with that point at all and believe that poor people DO far

better under Democratic administrations.

I simply think he has chosen this symbol on more than ONE occasion. It isn't a gaffe or a mistake. I don't like the message it DOES send.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Amen to everything you said. eom

[Noordam]

15. I agree 100% with Dean it will take as many votes as he can get

to beat the Bush Machine.

Take the gun and flag issue off the table in the South, and just maybe some of them will listen when you talk about healthcare for their children.

[doubles]

21. DEAN NEEDS TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE HE OFFENDED WHITES MORE THAN BLACKS!!!!

It is his stereotype of the South that all poor whites wear confederate flags on pickup trucks that is most damaging. He also appears to embrace the flag which would distance minorities but I think the bigger hole he needs to dig out of is the stereotype he used on poor southern whites. He needs to do this now because if he is nominated, we will loose the entire south and the election!

[mandyky]

25. Dean offended ppeople who wanted to be offended or

who support one of the soour grape gang.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

27. He never had the south to begin with

and neither do any of our other candidates (I'm sorry but I don't think Edwards or Clark are a shoe-in either, despite where they come from).

We have to first realize that we Dems DO NOT HAVE THE SOUTH and haven't for several years now. Dean is the only candidate I see openly adressing this reality. I like Clark and I like Edwards but they have to offer more to poor southern whites than just where they're from. I'm not saying Dean even necessarily has anything to offer in this regard --- I'm just saying he's right to adress it.

[RetroLounge]

38. Only on this board...

eom

[RuB]

24. By being clear headed about this we may get the So. female vote

and a miniscule of the So. male vote. There are alot of the Southerers who could care less and wouldn't miss a breath if a Democrat dies much less ever vote for one. But are there some reasonable ones out there? Yes, I think so.

[pansypoo53219]

28. Dean is a pragmatist

and he is playing big tent AMERICAN(i'll take anybody) for america, to GW's only my people count.
Dean wants all the little people and inspire them to care again and dammit, i like that, because I care.

[Gin]

36. This is a non issue...I work with folks who think that way...but won't say

it outloud...he is trying to be inclusive..rather than exclusive like that moron bush. It is all about the racial (and gender)issues in the south. He is absolutely correct.

By the way...they (rethuglcans) also don't like females in power. Predjudice and ignorance wears many faces. Barefoot, pregnant and in our place in the kitchen! Neanderthals each and every one of them!

Chill...Peace!

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Getting the south to vote Democratic would be pretty easy...IF

Democrats from the north would stop demonizing the south and stop referring to southerners as racists when the overwhelming majority of white southerners are NOT racist. Oh, and the unfair bias against southern whites often displayed here is no different than what the southern whites are being accused of. I think Dean's comments will most definitely get a lot of southerners paying closer attention to what he says. Why? Because although he did sort of stereotype them, at least he cares about their vote. That tells them he isn't ready to throw them out like yesterday's trash. It will go a long way, despite the fact that he could have chosen better words. They know what he meant and they will see it for what it was, and not as an insult.

[maggrwaggr]

39. the biggest prejudice against southern racists comes from white southerner

in my experience.

What I've seen is that white men in the south who aren't racist rednecks are embarrassed about it and really HATE the racist rednecks.

The people who criticize the racist rednecks the most ruthlessly in the south are the white men who aren't racist rednecks.

It's wrong to think every white guy in the south is a racist redneck. The south is a complex place.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

40. It's official: The Confederate Flag is the condom of the Democratic Party

OK, I'm overgeneralizing but bear with me a moment here.

People who oppose condom distribution in high schools feel that only abstinence should be promoted, overlooking the fact that teenagers will have sex anyway, and that society as a whole would benefit greatly by looking at the whole issue, as opposed to what they WISH was the whole issue. While it would certainly be "better" if teenagers simply didn't have sex, that's not the reality we live in.

By the same token, there is a larger issue here than the Confederate flag, and a crueler reality than what it symbolizes.

Nobody in their right mind would debate the fact that the Confederate flag is a deeply offensive symbol. But just the way teenagers are going to have sex with or without condoms or sex education, there is a significant portion of the white working class in the south that embrace it, whether they mean to offend anyone or not. Does this make it "right" for them to display it? Of course not. But as long as they're GOING TO display it anyway, we are better off dealing with that reality than ignoring it because it offends us.

To sum up: Teenagers are going to have sex --- common sense dictates that we as a society should accept that reality and take it from there, as we would benefit greatly. By the same token, the south is going to have poor whites with Confederate flag decals on their vehicles --- common sense dictates that we as a party should accept that reality and take it from there, or we will continue to lose elections there.

My flame-retardant suit is on, and my analogy is perhaps a little sloppy, but I hope you people will take my meaning. However this all turns out anyway, I think it's a good thing that this dialog has been opened, because if we don't as a party start evaluating the country and its population as it really is, we are truly fucked.

EDITED FOR SPELLING

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Apparently Howard Dean disagrees with you, he apologized

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/06/politics/campaigns/06DEAN.html?hp

Now you have a dilemma..you are disagreeing with your own candidate.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

42. Oh well

It's not the first thing I've differed with him on. I don't think he needed to apologize.

What is my "dilemma" exactly?

[Classical_Liberal]

45. He apologized to those who were offended.

which is pretty sly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. No he recognized his mistakes and now you can't back off can you?

"He said that his main mistake had been not immediately condemning the flag during the debate, and that he had decided to change course as he came to understand that his comments had been personally offensive to two of his rivals, the Rev. Al Sharpton, who is black, and Senator John Edwards of North Carolina.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

48. Ow! Your insightful barbs are HURTING me!!!!

I believe that he was right to bring the issue up, and I don't believe he needed to apologize. This is my opinion. There is nothing to "back off" from.

I don't think it's a sign of either my moral ambiguity or a personal failing on my part to support a candidate who I don't completely agree with at all times. If you support a candidate who has never, ever said or done anything you disagreed with then you are lucky indeed, but it's never happened to me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. Please look at the post I was responding to. It wasn't your post.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

51. Ooopsy daisy

My mistake, sorry. I'm a tad defensive this evening.

[FDRrocks]

43. I think Dean meant...

he wants to win back the south to the Democrats... but he said it in a really stupid ass way. Fuck the confederate flag.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

44. That's another way of putting it

Obviously you have slightly harsher language to use than I do, but the point is the same: We need as a party to start engaging these people if we expect to win any elections.

[FDRrocks]

46. Maybe...

Nixon stole the south and we need them. But the Republicans seem to stand for what they believe in, even though in fiscal matters they are more liberal than Democrats of recent times (not in social programs, in WAR). If any southerners vote for Conservatives on an anti-gay or anti-minority (read: social matters) agenda I'd rather no try to co-opt them. In most other cases I would be fine.

We could win without co-opting the south, but if we did it would be alot easier. I love Dennis, I am progressive as hell, but I think Clark is the best shot.

Either way, I do not think that confed flag statement was smart at all, especially with Al in the debates (and that man is Sharp *ping*).

[retyred]

50. Dean’s white following

On most college campuses across America, presidential hopeful Howard Dean has strong followings. His campaign calls it “grassroots,” where the Internet and college communities continue to play a central role in garnering money and volunteers for his upbeat campaign. But how diverse is Dean’s following? And how grassroots is his campaign? If you’ve ever been to a Dean rally, you probably noticed how disproportionately young and white his patrons are. It is a sign that not all Democrats have access or time to surf Dean's popular “BlogForAmerica” website, let alone attend his little nationwide hootenannies or Meet-Up events.

Just references have been made between Howard Dean and Eugene McCarthy — who in 1968 lost the Democratic Primaries because his predominately “white” anti-war following couldn’t reach out to black voters in the South. And Howard Dean may be on the same crash course as old Gene.

<snip>

This may truly be the turning point in Dean's bid for the White House. Not that he’ll be asked to leave his Party, but if Dean’s campaign is unable to secure black votes, he will end up losing key Primary states like South Carolina and Virginia. Black Democrats in these states are essential “swing voters” in the Primaries, and no half-witted Democrat would ever ignore them. In Bill Clinton’s first Presidential bid, he craftily gained ground in these very states by pandering to the black vote. It was a decisive moment in Clinton's campaign.

Dean has a tough case to prove that “Confederate flag” waving Southerners are even registered to vote Democrat in the upcoming Primaries.

<snip>

Somebody should tell Dean that hopping in the back of a redneck's pickup truck ain't the best way to hitch a ride to DC.

http://www.unknownnews.net/031105a-jf.html

************************

While I have no problem personally with what Dean said other than it being a real stupid way of saying what he meant to say, I do think the last line says it all: "Hopping in the back of a redneck's pickup truck ain't the best way to hitch a ride to DC."




Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[retyred]

52. You're living in a dream world

if you or anyone else believes these cretin's would vote Democrat. I work in redneck Florida "Polk County", on any given day I get 10 trucks in my shop with CF stickers, and right next to it is a bush/cheney sticker along with half dozen American flag stickers.

I've tried to reason with these people by pointing out how their being lied to and that as long as bush is in office what they have right now is as good as it gets for them.

What I get is....bush is kicking terrorist ass....we belong in Iraq....we need to steal all their oil....bush is the only one with balls enough to protect what's ours.

No...It aint gonna happen....nor should it!

This is one group of repugs that belong right where they are.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book