Flag issue is designed to derail Dean

[Ugnmoose]

My belief is that Dean is equally feared by both Repukes and the DLC. They know if he is elected he will be much harder to manipulate than perhaps any other candidate (except Kucinich). So it is now gangup time. This issue is being blown way out of context and out of proportion. Everyone knows damn well what Dean meant and it was in no way a racist comment. Simply put, Dean is telling it like it is. For the Dems to win they are going to have to bring the "southern bubbas" back into the fold. The only way to do that is to show them that only a Dem administration will be sensitive and responsive to their needs, that the Bushistas are f**king them over big time. The Dems cannot afford to write off the South nor should they. I admire Dean's courage to speak out on this issue and I deplore those who try to make political capital out of it.

[MrSoundAndVision]

1. A self-designed derailer

written by a sloppy candidate.

[Cha]

8. Who you callin' "a sloppy candidate"?

Edit~ to add..

http://www.deanforamerica.com

http://www.blogforamerica.com

[bearfartinthewoods]

20. would that be a suiderailment? eom

[caledesi]

2. You may be on to something U, because this "came out of nowhere"

Dean had used that line many times before and people applauded him. <They got it>. Then, last night....BOOM! Everyone, but Clark were on his back.

You think the DLC was behind this? Hmmmmm

[AP]

10. Nice persecution complex. This didn't come out of nowhere.

Dean has totally opened the door to criticism on race. I'm an amateur and I've been complaining about Dean on race for months. I couldn't believe someone didn't say anything sooner.

Dean has been flirting with the line for a long time, and he finally crossed at he's paying the price. I can't believe this is being cast as a Dean being the victim. That's beyond outrageous.

[Cha]

19. There is no "persecution complex" here!

THis was in his speech in Feb (I think) and just now gepkerwards are having hissy fits..

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

And No Dean is never a victim...Dean is way too strong to be a victim..

[CWebster]

34. Please

He is addressing what must be said. It is a reality in the Democratic party--they do not make inroads to connect with poor whites. Any of the other candidates could've introduced the topic but they don't go near it, it never even enters into the realm of consideration- They never stray from poll tested issues that relate to the SUV suburban class. The concern isn't even in their playbook. And it is damn interesting.

[Eloriel]

60. No, it's being cast as everyone else being hypocrites

WHERE THE HELL WERE THEY FOR THE PAST YEAR?

Get a clue, AP.

Eloriel

[CWebster]

31. They just exploited Sharpton's use of the race card

And searched for a way to create a target.

Class acts.

[metisnation]

3. without a doubt

We still need this guy to pummle GWB on the issues, all of our candidates need our support to march forward. A left a left a left right left lets go dems!!!!!!


:dem:

[KC21304]

4. I agree with you.

I'm sorry anyone made an issue of it, and wish it would go away. We will only get votes in the South by getting them to see that Bush is bad for the whole country.



I agree about the issue. Kerry is still my candidate.

[thinkahead]

7. Thank you for saying that

I am a Dean guy - but I thought Kerry did very well last night.

[eileen_d]

12. I support Kerry, and agree to a point

Publicly flogging Dean with his flag comment doesn't "raise" any of the candidates in my eyes (including Kerry).

But to say this is a DLC conspiracy? Did the DLC doctor the Doctor's scripts? Dean made a comment that he knew would rouse a little controversy (unless he is a complete idiot, which I don't believe). Dean likes stirring things up, which is great, but he's going to rock the boat, he (and his supporters) shouldn't complain about the waves.

[CWebster]

35. It may not officially by a DLC conspiracy

But it is an issue many of our elitist leaders never entertain. Surely there is no one lower on the hierarcy than poor ignorant whites.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. Spot on!

!

[Cha]

6. Thank you, Ungmoose for

those words of wisdom! I wish I could be so articulate! :D

[Upfront]

58. Yes, Thank you

Excellent thought and expression. You will get an A+:toast:

[Starpass]

9. Let's call a spade a spade

I'm a Clark or Kerry supporter but I'm up to the ass with the Dem moronic bullshit. Talk about us destroying this cluster fuck before it ever gets off the ground. Dean has a very good chance of being our candidate. Dean fucked up. He knows it in the broader context. It's going to help him (I think) in the primaries but he knows he has to sterilize it for the mass consumption if he is nominated. Give him some slack--he's a politician through and through and he isn't dumb. But sometimes his mouth does get away on him---shut up, Deanies..you know I'm telling the truth. It's something he will have to work on. Hell, they killed Gore for sighing against a nothing called Bush. Dean can't attack and sneer like he does on stage with the "great PRESIDENT Bush" or the media will slay him and he will bleed to death. So Howard has rough edges. But Howard might get this nomination. He isn't racist. He's just kind of not polished and a little bit white WASP niave--we here in New England don't deal with a lot of that racial stuff. Let's drop it. If he wins, then we need to talk to Howard about putting on a coat of polish----you might think it's "great and cute"--America and the media won't. First things first. Let him ride with what he said..he likes it. If he wins fine. If he doesn't, it's his problem.

[Cha]

11. No, I think Dean didn't "fuck up"! the candidates

gepkerwards Fucked Up!

edit~ for clarity

[KC21304]

22. Gepkerwards ! That's clever.

We have to trim down these debates though. I agree with Kerry and his wife. We are not helping any of our candidates with these clown shows. Maybe take 4 at a time like Kerry suggested last night.

[livinontheedge]

16. Dean didn't say anything wrong.

Nobody was "insulted". Nobody got "hurt". Dean is outspoken and his point is well taken. We need to reach out to everyone, INCLUDING those that might normally vote republican.

[eissa]

13. Thank you Ugnmoose!

And kerryfan. I respect that you still support your candidate, but state that this is really not an issue and was simply used for political gain.

People, PLEASE...let's stay focused here! There were more attacks on Dean last night than on shrub! This is unacceptable! The democrats are in agreement that we need the southern vote. There has been no strategy devised to get us those votes. Dean stuck his neck out and the butchers came out. Enough already! I want shrub out next year more than anything else. If that means whoring to a certain group of people to get the votes we need in what is certain to be a close election, than I say let Howard rip open his shirt and unbuckle his belt and whore away!

[Cha]

14. It will be interesting to see in retrospect

how all this plays out. I tend to be one postive mother so I think it will be Grreat!

[MartinAmbroseForan]

15. Nah, he's the front runner, that's all.

There just trying to take him down a peg or two so they have a chance.

[Pastiche423]

17. It's not called People Powered for nothing

Just imagine the shaking and quaking the DLCers and the repugs are experiencing now, as they see the Dean supporters and funds grow.

It's LOSS OF CONTROL OF THE PEOPLE!

They can't let a government, of the people, for the people and by the people let the people have a say, can they?

[Cha]

24. That's why I don't mind working

my :kick: off to make "They can't let a government, of the people, for the people and by the people let the people have a say, can they?" it happen!

[DrFunkenstein]

18. No, Flag Issue Is Designed To Expose Dean

It wasn't the sentiment that got Dean in trouble, it was the Bush-style foot-in-mouth that did.

Dean could have easily defused this, but his own fuse is too short. He revealed his own arrogance at the debates, acting distinctly un-Presidential. Clinton would have easily turned that around, but Dean's refusal to back down was met with the sounds of crickets from the audience. And he never addressed the Black kid's question, either.

For the 1000th time, no one believes that Dean is a racist. Just a boor.

NOT RACIST, BUT BOORISH
by Clay Risen

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: General Likeability
Grade: D

Howard Dean, contrary to his opponents' criticisms, is not a racist. It seems absurd to have to say that, but the fallout from his comment about wooing "guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks" has been swift, harsh, and just a little too tinged with schadenfreude. But saying Dean isn't a racist doesn't get him off the hook for being a boor. In fact, his comments point to another dirty stereotype altogether: that of southern whites. Which is too bad, because the substantive thinking behind Dean's comments is right-on. Democrats need to reach out to sections of the country that are getting shafted by the administration but, for various cultural reasons, vote Republican.

Yesterday in Iowa, Dean tried to clarify his statement by saying that he was simply highlighting his appeal to the southern working class. And it's true that there are some folks in that category who sport the Stars and Bars in their Chevies. But lots of working-class southern whites don't have a particular affection for the flag, and they would be offended to see themselves grouped underneath it (particularly if it's coming from an Ivy League-educated, northeastern politician). Dean is using a divisive symbol as a stand-in for an enormous group of people--in other words, he's stereotyping.

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=929

[Cha]

21. There you go again playing the "bush card"...

cause you have nothing.

"Can Kerry possibly think Dean "embraced" the Confederate flag with his statement? Of course not. So Kerry's huffy reaction makes him look dishonest, not courageous. And sure, Gephardt is entitled to pass up the support of anyone he chooses, but his self-righteous Dean bashing just confirms the electorate's suspicions that Democrats are elitists who prefer ideological purity to mass appeal when casting their net for supporters." ~Joan Walsh~

edit~ to link~ http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/11/04/confederate_flag/index.html

[Classical_Liberal]

23. Bullshit or TNR would be criticizing Edwards as well

because Edwards said the same thing.

[Ugnmoose]

27. I'd rather have a boor than a two faced sob

I am sick and tired of these damn political hacks who smile at you and tell you what they know you want to hear and then go around and knife you in the back. I want to know exactly where a candidate stands and what he thinks on the issues that matter. Don't piss in my face and tell me its raining.

[RetroLounge]

30. What took you so long?

Get stuck in some other Dean Bash thread?

[mbali]

40. I wonder what the reaction would have been had

another candidate - say, Al Sharpton - said, "I want to be the candidate of the Nation of Islam."

Think white Democrats would have accepted being told, "You just don't understand - members of the Nation of Islam's economic interests are the same as yours, so we should reach out and welcome them into the party?"

I don't think so. What do you think?

[Cocoa]

50. or if Sharpton had criticized Lieberman on race

I think we wouldn't hear people talking about "the race card" or "identity politics."

[Cocoa]

25. Sharpton wouldn't be on the DLC's side

if this was DLC vs. non-DLC, Dean would represent the DLC's side and Sharpton would represent the anti-DLC side.

I think if anything, this exposes some misrepresentation on Dean's part when he painted himself as the one standing up for core dem principles.

I don't demand that a candidate be "pure" in any way, but I think to some extent the Dean campaign kind of made that claim about him, in the way they called the other candidates Bush lite.

[Cha]

26. Sharpton may not be on the "dlc's side"

but he has his own agenda.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/11/04/confederate_flag/index.html

"Dean put his finger on something crucial that explains the Democrats' lack of nationwide mass appeal: While they correctly addressed the problems of racism from the 1960s on, they lost sight of the issues of class, which don't always dovetail with race. Defending his remarks yesterday in Iowa, Dean explained: "What Franklin Roosevelt did was to get the Southern white working class to vote with the Southern African-American working class," said Dean, about the former Democratic president. "The only time we're ever going to make progress in this country is when black people and white people and brown people work together and put race aside." I happen to believe that, too. It's disturbing if other candidates don't."

[Classical_Liberal]

38. Sharpton is a competitor just like the DLC

They are in an alliance on this. The DLC is doing this because they want to derail the class populism issue. Sharpton is doing it, because he can't seem to let go of identity politics.

[Cocoa]

44. identity politics

you mean doing what Sharpton has been doing this whole campaign, which is making sure that racial issues are not ignored?

You mean keeping the party true to its base, which is what Dean claims he stands for?

[AP]

57. In The Clinton Wars, Sid B. talks about identity politics, and what

he means, I believe, is stuff like animal rights, gay rights, and other single-issue causes, which DON"T OVERLAP with MIDDLE/WORKING CLASS opportuntiy (ie, which aren't about which direction the money flows, masses to bushes, or bushes to masses).

Race is about opportunity. It's not, I believe, what people mean when they talk about identity politics..

[CWebster]

28. Wel, certainly everybody is talking about it.

The National debate.

It looks to me that Dean is emerging and the rest of the attack pack is being recognized for their true motives. It isn't winning them any votes.

[WilliamPitt]

29. Clearly, it is being used to take his legs out

Call it a dirty trick.

If Dean can't overcome this dirty trick, coming from the Dems, then he will be inert vegetable matter when Rove gets through with him.

I call it a test. I'm hopeful he passes, because he does us all far more good than bad while out there. Let the primaries decide.

[Cocoa]

32. one way it not a dirty trick

is that there's no dispute about the facts, the actual words he used.

Same goes for the Medicare comments.

This is NOT the case with Trippi's letter to the Gephardt campaign about the alleged gay bashing incident, which last time I heard no one corroborated. So far in this primary, that is the most fishy issue, the only incident that comes close to what I would call a dirty trick.

[WilliamPitt]

36. Relax, relax, relax

'Dirty trick' is one perspective that, frankly, doesn't even matter. Dean is under assault. He has to deal with it. Frankly, fairness or lack thereof doesn't even come ito it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. How is it a DIRTY trick? Did they GET him to invoke the use of the

confederate flag to make his point? Did the DLC arrange vulcans to take over Howard Dean's mouth muscles?

The guy does NOT parse his words carefully and has USED this symbol TWICE in speeches.

The symbol is FAR more distressing to black americans than white as can be witnessed in the votes in SC and Miss. Howard Dean is basically saying, I want to appeal to racist whites since we need their votes even though BLACK VOTERS continue to vote with us 90% of the time.

[WilliamPitt]

37. Relax, relax, relax

'Dirty trick' is one perspective that, frankly, doesn't even matter. Dean is under assault. He has to deal with it. Frankly, fairness or lack thereof doesn't even come ito it.

[AP]

41. I presume -- could be wrong -- that nsma is attacking the

Dean spin that Dean's the victim. If this is how Dean's dealing with this, nsma is entiteld to make move B to KR5 and take that pawn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Exactly. Dean is the victim of his own fucking mouth

[AP]

48. And some might hope that Dean weathers this because he's more valuable in

than out, but if staying in means that the Democratic BASE (the black vote) stays home on election day, we can pack it up right now.

Two things kept Gore tight with Bush in 2000. The union vote showed up in Michigan and the black vote showed up in FL (but didn't have their votes counted).

Who's willing to let unions do all the heavy lifting for the Democratic party because black voters feel that no democrat talks bluntly to white audiences about race except for that libertarian who talks bluntly about how much he wants to help the suffering white race?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. Very good point. Even here in California, unions did NOT totally come

through for us but African American voters did. I prefer to treat their votes like gold and throw a bone to the Nascar dad vote.

[SomeAreSalt]

54. The AA vote is not going to evaporate

Unless the AA vote happens to like nascar and gets wind of this kind of pandering. I find honesty will win over trickery and carrots or bones anyday.

[AP]

55. Jesse Jackson had to work his ass off for it in Florida.

When Edwards won NC in 98, black leaders worked their asses off to get it out.

Did anyone read that post a few weeks ago by the guy who had a friend who was a labor leader in WV. Gore sent Tipper to a meeting that every Dem candidate since Johnson had attended so that he could go to a environmentalists meeting somewhere else.

That union leader worked hard, but not as hard as he could have. Gore didn't win WV.

You have to work for votes. They don't magically appear. And the unions fucked themselves by not working hard for Gore. But Gore fucked himself, and all of us for not having his priorities in order.

[CWebster]

56. No he isn't

It wasn't an issue until they needed one.

[Classical_Liberal]

39. So you are saying the Black voters should allow Bush to win

over the fricking flag? Gosh that makes sense.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. How on earth was telling this person that I didn't say that and that

she can't read if she is presuming I said that a personal attack?

Is it OK for her to post something that was NOT what I said?
She can't fucking read and if she can then she is being DELIBERATELY antogonistic which is FAR MORE AN INSULT to civility and respect than pointing out that she claims I said something I didn't...if you are going to remove my post then remove her fucking lying piece of shit post too.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. No it is par for the course..no valid arguement then just MAKE up what

the other person said.

.

[AP]

49. uhm, relax.

You have the arguments. You don't need the anger.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. thanks..took care of it.

[mbali]

63. Not at all

I'm saying that black folks shouldn't be told "hey, we're going to act like we don't know you so that we can try to get the attention of those cute little rednecks over there. But just sit tight and wait for us. Of course, you don't have a choice since you don't have anywhere else to go and, if you don't stay with us we'll accuse you of allowing Bush to win."

Are there any other segments of the Democratic base who get dissed like this so regularly? Do you think Jews would put up with a candidate telling them, "I want to be the candidate of the Nazi Skinheads and you should just go along with it since it would be really good for their economic interests and getting them to vote with us will expand our base and ensure us a victory?" Would Democratic women tolerate a candidate announcing "I want to be the candidate of the misogynist pro-life crowd?" I think we all know the answer to these questions.

I've heard plenty from Dean and his crowd about how it's in the best interest of the Confederate flag wavers to vote Democratic. But I've heard not one peep from him about why any black Democrat should welcome these folks into the fold. (Warning - don't throw up his platitudes about "moving foward together, blah blah blah. That's not an answer.)

I, for one, am sick of people like Dean and his supporters not only taking my views, my loyalty and my vote for granted as they chase around after constituencies that don't want them and would trample all over my rights and interests if given half a chance, but also of threatening to blame ME for a Bush win if I don't just sit down, shut up and do as I'm told.

That's what I'm saying.

[SomeAreSalt]

46. only a Dem administration will be sensitive and responsive to their needs

That might take some convincing. How many Dems here support the things that many of them enjoy? Hunting, gun shooting, off-roading on public lands, the war, Nascar, jetskis, big truck gas hogs, logging...you et the idea.

How many here support those activities?

[Ugnmoose]

53. A bit stereotyped - don't you think?

I live in the South and can tell you that there are plenty of white folks that care a whole lot about the economy and jobs and the environment and affordable health care. These are the issues that Dems stand for and these are issues that can resonate well if they are presented in an honest no bullshit way. I think most people are sick and tired of the crap that politician spew at us. They hunger for someone who isn't afraid to tell it like it is.

The problem as I see it is that the system is rigged by the insiders. They don't want mavericks in the game. They want players who will play the game by their rules.

[LiberalTexan]

61. I'm was so embarrassed by our party last night

This whole nitpicking thing on the flag issue....this whole PC thing (I don't think you're a racist but I'm going to beat you over the head with this)...this is what Rush Limbaugh used to get his fame. He told Americans that we didn't need to be PC anymore. We could just do what we wanted and live our lives.

I'm not going to ever say that not giving a shit about the people around you (Rush's philosophy) is a good one. What I'm saying is that he painted us as the group who was responsible for all this nitpicking and shoving everyone into a box because they had to call this group a certain way and that group a certain way. It doesn't make it right, it just puts the whining on US as a GROUP. Somehow we because known as the PC whiners!

Now this last night. All this harping against Dean who the candidates agreed was not a racist....frankly I found it ridiculous and I was embarrassed that they went on a rampage. It really set our party back a notch. And, if Freepers were saying last night "I told you so" about us being the party of whiners and PCers, I have to say we definately helped their argument last night.

We were not classic Democrats. We were not a forgiving, inclusive group last night. We were ugly and out for blood in any way we could get it at the expense of another candidate's reputation even though we knew it was wrong to do so. I think we looked more like Republicans as a group last night.

I was embarrassed.

[mmonk]

62. Crazy concept

unless Dean is working against himself.