"This is a Conservative Country"

[Q]

- I've heard this from Republicans and 'conservative' Democrats alike. But why must this country be labeled as either conservative or liberal?

- Liberals have never presumed to call this a 'Liberal Country'. So why then do conservatives insist on labeling this country after their particular ideology?

- Labeling things makes a presumption of ownership. It implies that all must pay dues and have membership in the conservative club or be outcasts in the community.

- The answer could be that politicians don't want us to think of ourselves as 'Americans'. They want us to think in terms of team sports: winners and losers. You're required to be on either the Blue team or the Red Team.

- Thus...conservatives think of liberals...not as fellow Americans...but players on the 'other' team. It's a way for politicians to dehumanize the opposition and rally their 'team' against them.

- This is not a 'conservative country'. To say so is to become a tool for politicians intent on dividing the country into factions to fight each other while they escape responsibility for their actions.

[WillyBrandt]

1. The illusion of inevitability

is a GOP tactics. Oh, none of the Dems can beat bush. Oh, this is a conservative county.

Say this bullshit enough and people, even decent Dems, start believing it. It's a tactic, not a fact. There's a good section in Michael Moore's book showing that this is far mroe of a liberal counntry in belief, if not in label.

[Democrats unite]

2. How true...

Just look at all the Dean supporters defending a bigot!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. You should have to...

Defend that purile comment.

[LizW]

15. About your screen name

That's irony, right?

[Q]

19. That comment is uncalled for...

...and you should retract it if you can't support it.

[lcordero]

3. they try to label the US as a "conservative" country

for disinformation and propaganda purposes.

Tally up the popular vote in the Presidential Election of 2000. You will see that there are more leftists than goosesteppers in the US.

[Lexingtonian]

4. Well, Clinton said

it well in his comments on the Presidential candidates a few days ago. In his view the country is conservative in the way it talks, politically, but willing to be quite progressive in the way it does things when it decides to act.

[dusty64]

5. Well,

"Labeling things makes a presumption of ownership". They DO own the electronic "voting" machines, so I guess they already know the outcome of next years "elections". An extreme right "landslide" is probably in the works making the last few years look like the good old days. Honestly, if this issue is not addressed immediately I don't think any of our efforts are worth anything. Sorry for the pessimism, but I'm really believing the system has been corrupted beyond repair and the utter silence from those who supposedly represent us has me convinced even more.

[BeFree]

6. The US is a Liberal country

Compared to most of this world's present and past countries, the US is very Liberal. But it has a conservative streak. Kinda like two sides of a coin or like night and day. One depends upon the other.

The problem lies in the facts that the CONservative side is the most vocal, and the fact that CON's actions are based on lies and anti-humanity. The dark side.

Liberals seek the truth, mostly, and tend to support humanity in all it's diversity. We Liberals may appear to be a minority but we are a vast majority of the population. Unfortunately, it takes someone like * to unite us.

[elfwitch]

20. actually that is not true at all...

Over the last 8 years I have been a research assistant for a multi-national project that measures individual perceptions of distributive justice (what they feel is fair or not fair in society). One of the many scales measures tolerance for government support versus private support for various social programs (free lunches, elder care, public education). What this study has found is that even self-proclaimed liberals in the United States are FAR more conservative than moderates or even right of center folks in EVERY other country in the world. What this means is that people in the US who say they are left or left of center come in right of center as compared to everybody else. South Africa is one of the countries on the survey as is Japan, Germany, and England. No other industrialized country (over 15 now) comes even close to being as conservative as the US.

One of the explanations for these phenomena is the Puritanical base that the country was founded on. A combination of Puritanism, the Protestant Work Ethic, and American Exceptionalism makes "the freest country on the planet" looks like some of the Banana Republics in Central and South America.

Another thing that the study has found is that Americans (even liberals) believe that success in life is directly connected to deservedness and not to hard work or perseverance. All of this goes back to the Puritanical ethic of God rewards pious behavior with riches and success. if you are poor you deserve to be because you have displeased God by being a sinner.

Just in case anyone is saying, yeah but this might not be a valid study... It has been conducted in over 15 countries with sample sizes in each country between 5000 to 7000 respondents.

[BeFree]

31. "Not true at all"

Sheesh.... nothing I wrote was true?!?!?

Historically speaking, America has been a liberal beacon to humanity. These other countries, while smaller in size and of much longer existence have fed off America's Liberality.

Look at the major population canters in the world, ie. Russia and China and India. America on that balance beam is far more Liberal than those. India may come close, eh?

What is a Liberal vs. Conservative standard? To me it is at it's core on of live and let live vs. rule and be ruled. Are there shortcomings to the American Liberal Utopia which would ensure humanity's survival? Yeah. Are some countries a little further along? Sure. But as a whole, America is still the beacon which humans around the world look too for hope. It's just that right now, with these crooks in charge, it is nighttime and rather cloudy, too boot.

[elfwitch]

32. beacon? Sure

But it is the same ad pitch that sells the greatest and freest country on earth slogan. A few studies came out recently to pretty much put those myths in the crapper. The one about the US ranking in the 30s on media freedoms comes to mind. We can continue to market that beacon idea to the rest of the world, but I'm pretty sure that they aren't buying it anymore. The last three years have done a lot to convince the rest of the world (if they weren't convinced before) that they were sold a bill of cheap goods and empty promises.

[BeFree]

33. "The last three years"

And you use that as a basis for your pronouncements? That's a shortsighted research period, thereby invalidating your claims.

You seem to claim that if we aren't in a Liberal Utopia then we ain't shit. Things change. There is a period of night then a period of day. The world turns. But the things that grow during the day do not neccessarily go quietly in the night. Usually they survive to grow more, eh? That's what we are going through. Surges of growth followed by periods of darkness. Every good witch knows that. <grin>

[elfwitch]

34. Research....

You folks are taking this project like it is something me and a couple of high school kids did for a mid-term science project.

This project has been going on for quite some time. It is being conducted by PhDs and entire University departments in over 15 countries. The folks that are conducting this study are the best of the best in their fields in their nations and worldwide.

I am not making these claims like it is my opinion. I am sharing the findings of a multi-national project. This project began in 1996. The data has been and is still being collected. There has been no shift in the findings since the project began. Liberals in The United States are far more conservative than moderates in other nations. As I told The Professor, if you want more information on the findings of the study, I have the email address of the project director. He can give you titles of numerous books, professional journal articles, and doctoral thesis based on this data.

The stance that I see being taken by you and The Professor is that research means nothing. Data and figures mean nothing. We should ignore scholarly reports and just believe what we want. That kind of attitude AGAINST data and research is what got condom information pulled off the CDC site and got the US pulled out of the Kyoto treaty. The findings of this study don't make me happy. But they do make me think that EVERYONE, that includes the DU set, has to some degree bought the myth we've been told all our lives.

When the United States is flourishing in better times (i.e. the Clinton era) it is truly a beacon. But even in those times, it is not as great as we are all lead to believe. Even in good times, our country has a lot of problems that don't get fixed because as a nation we reject anything that even hints of socialism or government funded care of the less fortunate.

There are many books on the subject of American Exceptionalism, the Puritanical basis of our collective national moral base, and the Protestant work ethic that explains why this country is like it is. It explains why the US was one of the last industrialized countries to allow women the vote. It explains why things like the ERA, National Healthcare, and Medicare fail.

I wish all of this was just my opinion. But it isn't. I wish I hadn't learned how things are through my undergraduate and graduate level studies. I wish I could believe the myth. I wish I could swallow the "American Dream". But I can't. A lot of other countries are on a much better track than we are right now. An election is not going to change that. There needs to be an overhaul of the national character for that to happen.

The validity of this project is detailed here:
http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/pol/resource/cvdjp.html

edit: typos

[sangh0]

35. Don't be discouraged

DU is not as liberal or as rational as some seem to believe.

[elfwitch]

36. Not discouraged...

Just a little disappointed. If you can't even convince the choir, how are you going to convert anyone else?

[BeFree]

37. America is not very socialist

You are now saying, right? I can agree to that. What that means is that our government is not tuned into providing every need for everyone.

While Liberalism and Socialism are similar, they are not the same. Some Liberals are Socialists too, but not all Liberals are Socialists.

I defined my idea of Liberal, how 'bout you throwing out your's? Maybe you can convince some of the choir, yet. <g>

[elfwitch]

38. Oh this is getting really bothersome....

I am SHARING the results of a study that was conducted that addresses the ORIGINAL topic of this thread.

I never said that the US should be Socialist. I never said the US should be Liberal. I never mentioned where I stand on either. I am providing information about a bunch af really smart people who have spent several years studying this topic.

The main point of THE STUDY, I will repeat again, is that in the United States, self-identifying liberals fall much furhter right on the scale than do liberals in every other country in the study.

The reasons for this can be read about quite easily in any book on the topics I provided. The genreal national flavor of the United States is based upon people taking care of themselves and receiving little to no help from the government. Even liberals in the United States, as compared to other countries, prefer that people take care of their own social welfare needs.

I am providing data about the topic of the thread. No more, no less. I guess The Pofessor was right. research means noting to anybody because it is all subjective.

You are right. This IS the Greatest contry in the world. We don't have any root problems as a society. These JERKWEEDS in office are just an unfortunate fluke. Everything will get all better in 2004 when they get kicked out of office. All the other countries will start trusting us again. WOW!! I sure do feel better now. I thought we were living in a near fascist police state because an awful lot of people don't mind giving up liberties for a false sense of safety. Thanks! No my ulcer will go away and I can cancel my plans to expatriate when the CABAL cheats its way to another "victory".

[BeFree]

42. Sorry to bother you.....again

You have a problem, it seems. You want us to believe and accept with full faith and credit a study done amongst 16(?) countries with the conclusion that we ain't Liberal, or Socialist, or whatever.

I've attempted to engage in conversation with you about your personal feelings on this and all I get is that damn report thrown at me. Screw the report, tell me what you feel! And skip the BS you posted, please-- It is an ill-advised attempt to put words in my mouth...

Quote
You are right. This IS the Greatest contry in the world. We don't have any root problems as a society. These JERKWEEDS in office are just an unfortunate fluke. Everything will get all better in 2004 when they get kicked out of office. All the other countries will start trusting us again. WOW!! I sure do feel better now. I thought we were living in a near fascist police state because an awful lot of people don't mind giving up liberties for a false sense of safety. Thanks! No my ulcer will go away and I can cancel my plans to expatriate when the CABAL cheats its way to another "victory".

[elfwitch]

48. okay, fine...

I think this country does run a little on the conservative side. With 90% of the country identifying themselves as Christians, with the rampant racism, sexism, jingoism, and a myriad of other ISMs, I would have to say that the United States is fairly traditionalist. When you factor in things like the failure of the women's movement, the continuing huge struggle in many parts of the country against the civil rights movement, and the rampant xenophobia, I am going to lean on the side of saying the this country is a tad bit behind the times. When you look at the fact that in this day and age, synagogues, mosques, and women's clinics get harassed regularly, I'd have to say that noticing a little conformist acting-out type behavior is not that hard. When you look at how easy it was for the Bush Cabal to instill such fear and knee-jerk patriotism in to the masses, I'm going to venture a guess that it is because of conservatism. When you look at how many schools are easily putting in Creation Science books and banning Harry Potter, I'd have to imagine it does with being a little bit conservative.

This stuff doesn't just happen and I think it is naive to believe that it is really only the actions of a vocal few. People let this happen because an awful damn lot of them either don't find a problem with it at all or don't find it so horrible that they get off their over-stuffed pampered bottoms to do anything about it. The United States is the most privileged nation on the earth. We consume more and have a better standard of living than any other nation. People like that comfort. It got this way because of money-grubbers and robber barons that have exploited the rest of the world's resources so we can have 24-hour convenience stores and H2s.

When you ask people where they stand on "liberal" issues, many of them are for it. But they don't vote. They don't get out there and stand up for those ideas they are so willing to impart in a phone survey. Most people only act when THEY become uncomfortable. Apparently enough people haven't become uncomfortable enough to demand the repeal of the Patriot Act, to demand the impeachment of the Bush administration, to demand universal health care, to demand clean air and water, to demand ANYTHING besides reality TV and fast food.

THAT is where I stand.

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Martin Niemöller, 1945

[LeahMira]

44. A beacon?

Historically speaking, America has been a liberal beacon to humanity.

Well, that's what our teachers tell us anyhow. Recall that this country is just over 200 years old. Other countries have had their ups and downs, but while we might have been a beacon at one time, we certainly aren't now. Also, depending on who you were, the US has been not so much a beacon of hope as it has been a tyrant and a bully... and not only to the "bad guys." And why should we be such a beacon of liberalism? We have some of the right answers, but I think our big mistake is in assuming that we have them all.

[LeahMira]

43. I don't know about that...

Compared to most of this world's present and past countries, the US is very Liberal.

Compared to countries in the past, perhaps. Compared to countries presently, though, I don't think so. Two of my grown children live outside the country and when we visit them we find that most of the people we meet are far more to the left than liberals here in the U.S. That may be a generational thing, since we are meeting friends of the kids', but still... the younger generation outside of this country seems very thoughtful and liberal. And, a friend of mine (my age) who was born in Germany and has lived in countries of Europe, Africa, and Asia, quite often just rolls her eyes and sighs "only in America!"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Historically America Has Been A Center Right Country.....

By any measure it is one the most conservative of the industrialized democracies...

[Q]

21. By what measure is the US a 'conservative' country?

- Because most of the talking head pundits are conservative and say so?

[elfwitch]

22. see post #20

n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Ummm? Post 20 Is Not Proof

It is conjecture based upon some research which is limited by time and money.

The conclusions drawn are then based upon the subjective opinions of the researchers and analysts.

Therefore, there is nothing there to PROVE your contention that the U.S. is center-right.

You have attempted to validate your opinion with your opinion. That's not very good research, i would opine.
The Professor

[elfwitch]

30. So based on that...

No research is valid? Hell, let's just stop doing it all together! While we are at it close all the Universities and throw all the academics in jail. Their research isn't worth anything because it is all subjective. All polls are subjective so lets do away with them too. It's just people's opinions. Those aren't worth anything because people lie all the time. Exit polls need to go too then I guess. Same premise, just subjective choices. And then elections need to go because people are just making choices based on subjective opinion and irrational biases. Yeah, that is great.


The validity of this project is detailed here:
http://www.arts.auckland.ac.nz/pol/resource/cvdjp.html

The Crossnational Variations in Distributive Justice Perception (CVDJP) project -- which now encompasses research collaborators in New Zealand, Australia, the United States, English and French Canada, England, Ireland, France, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Poland, Japan, Israel, Jamaica, and South Africa -- is based on an extensive questionnaire designed to operationalize, explore, and compare aspects of the (complex, multi-dimensional)`cognitive maps' used by citizens of modern democracies in their thinking about distributive fairness relationships among different groups, classes, and interests. The questionnaire has now been translated into eight languages. The survey instrument measures attitudes towards the programs and redistributive functions of the late twentieth century welfare state, the fairness of the taxpayer-recipient-government relationship, and the perceived relative resource positions (contributions to society, rewards from society) of 50 different types of social groupings within modern democracies.

For more on this study check:
http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/distjust.htm
http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/theoryacc.htm


If you would like to discuss the results of this study with one of the project chairs, I have his email address. Nice guy. Pretty smart. Got his PhD at MIT.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. You Are On Firm Ground

If you polled the nation's political science, sociology, history, and economics professors a consensus would arise that America is the one of the most if not the most conservative of the industrialized democracies....

Heck, the main theme is Poli Sci 101 is "American Exceptioanalism"

Here's a good place to start....

http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring97/american.htm

Whether you are looking at something as amorphous as national character or as precise as the latest social science surveys America is a center right nation....

To argue the contrary puts you on about as firm as ground as folks who argued from the geocentric perspective in Galileo's time.....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Let's Start With The

fact that no other industrialized democracy spends a greater percentage of their gross domestic product on the military and no other industrialized democracy with the possible exception of Japan spends a smaller amount of their gross domestic product on social welfare programs than the United States....


Also, let's look at the fact according to the latest Harris poll that 18% of Americans identify themselves as liberal, 40% identify themselves as moderate, and thirty percent identify themselves as conservative... These figures have been fairly constant over the past three decades.....

Throw in the fact that no left wing party has ever garnered over 10% of the vote in a national election in this country... And Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose party and Robert La Follette's Progressive party don't count... If the socialist parties of the early twentieth century polled higher I might be impressed......

The right wing party (the Republicans) control the presidency, the senate, and twenty nine governorships......

With the possible exception of Japan the United States is the most conservative of the industrialized democracies.....

[LeahMira]

47. No.

Because most of the talking head pundits are conservative and say so?

Not because they say so, since they are trying to define who we are for the rest of us. But we celebrate our freedom of religion, for example, while at the same time we don't have freedom from fear or freedom from homelessness or some of those other kinds of freedoms that other nations' peoples have.

What the conservative pundits are doing is maintaining the "us v. them" mentality and since they are in charge right now they are marginalizing anyone who could possibly pose a threat to their continuing power into the future.

Even in this country there is a whole spectrum of thought in the middle. Where the conservatives are making their mistake is in lumping together all those who are not ultra-right wing conservatives and marginalizing them in one way or another. They aren't just marginalizing the left in this country. They are forcing a choice on the middle ground... those who lean a little this way and a little that. They want those people to come over to their side... or else they will label them as "unpatriotic" or "anti-American."

The left wing and even the more centrist Democrats could get those middle ground folks on our side as easily if we are willing to include their concerns and address them with open minds. The question is, do we care enough to do that?

While what Dean said last night was clumsy, I think he has the idea. Unfortunately, I think he got that great idea after he heard what Zell Miller said on Meet the Press last Sunday.

Personally, I love what Dennis Kucinich is saying. I wish he would say it louder, because I think it makes sense for us as a whole country and is, IMO, just humane. But sometimes I wonder if Dennis really wants the Presidency. I know Dean does, but I wonder if he is right just now for the country. Oy! Good thing the whole Democratic party will be deciding. Just hoping they all get it right.

[Q]

8. It seems as if we're falling into the trap...

...set by politicians. Nearly every post so far refers to left vs right labels. Why do we have such a difficult time thinking of ourselves as plain old Americans?

- Politics shouldn't be a team sport. It should be about Americans trying to get the best representation possible in government. Whether a liberal or conservative...those we 'hire' to represent us should fight for the common good of all Americans.

[BeFree]

12. Fighting for the common good

Is quite a Liberal idea, donctha' think? It sure as hell ain't conservative.

Labels are what they are... labels... peel back that sticker and look at the underlying product... America is a Liberal Country.

I don't give a damn for how others label my country, for me it's: Give me Liberal or give me death!

[alarimer]

10. labels

Part of the problem is that "liberals" have been painted in such a negative light by conservatives that most people would not self-identify as liberals because it is a "bad" thing to be (according to the right). But if you asked people about whether they agree with certain things but not identify those things as either liberal or conservative, you would probably find that a lot of people in this country would agree with things that might be considered as liberal. For example, instead of asking people whether they think "gay marriage" is a good idea (they would probably say no), ask they if gays should be able to visit their loved ones in the hospital, inherit property from each other, or have their partners covered under their insurance, more people would say yes.

[snippy]

11. If US was conservative, the RNC would not work so hard to depress turnout

For twenty years the RNC has used wedge issues and false definitions of the democratic party as a means to keep turnout low. The RNC believes that if only the most committed people vote they will win more elections. It is a deliberate strategy. Newt Gingrich has written and spoken about it many times.

[Isome]

13. They do it because we're liable to believe them.

We're so damn gullible. I've seen posters actually post things like, "the country is more conservative than we are, we have to go to the center".

They'll keep doing it because it works, and more knuckleheads will come whining about it on DU. Just take a look around!

[LeahMira]

49. Not "go"... "listen and affirm"

I've seen posters actually post things like, "the country is more conservative than we are, we have to go to the center".

I don't think so, but we do have to listen to the center and then tell them what our ideas are to address those concerns they have. Sometimes it seems that the left sees, for instance, people who are religious, as less educated, superstitious, and generally less than. No, we don't have to have the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse, but the Ten Commandments are one source of inspiration for morality and good living. There are others, for sure. But generally, we all agree that murder is wrong, and adultery isn't cool either. Why can't we listen to people who agree with us, even if they sometimes agree for different reasons? Can't we find agreement on some things? I think we agree on most things actually.

[leesa]

14. Is it because they have purchased everything? Including all the Congress

the Supreme Court, the entire judiciary, the media, etc...It has nothing to do with what our citizens actually want. Conservatives have to BUY their love.

[elfwitch]

23. maybe they learned it...

Maybe they learned it in all those fraternities and sororities they belonged to. Spend this much money per semester to buy friends JUST LIKE YOU!

[dbt]

16. It may have been true!

If you want to go with an old-school view, the Constitution is a pretty conservative document.

The underlying principles upon which the United States were founded are pretty conservative.

Real, live Conservatism is not a bad thing (IF you can still find any). What it has been turned into by Reagan, Limbaugh, Atwater, Gingrich, Bush and bu$h is a perversion of conservatism!

There's your trouble.

:freak:
dbt

[Starpass]

17. Just finished Moore's book and he has a great chapter on this

He has tons of data from all the big pollsters that show right down the line the American people are overwhelmingly liberal. Be it questions on equal pay for women, living in a neighborhood with people of other races, abortion, etc. the numbers range from high 80th percentile to mid-50 percentile. He mainstains (and I agree) that that handful of rich and powerful are scared shitless of this message and thus the constant drool put out their by corporate media that Americans are becoming more conservative. They are not. He did point out that in conversations with people who agree down the line with Dem positions, but vote repuke that the #1 reason was: "the Dems will raise my taxes". They want it all, folks but don't want to pay for it. He stresses how they are so, so very "me, me" oriented. After reading his book I can see that our task is to get it though the heads of these morons that they are being financially raped all over the place by the repukes but getting nothing out of it. Do they want their taxes to go to Iraq or to their own neighborhoods??---to me this is our greatest educational project.

[Q]

18. There are similarities in how the Nazi party rose to power...

...in that Americans with a different point of view (liberal) are being persecuted for their beliefs.

- This is exactly the way the Republican party wants it. If 'liberals' are 'evil' there's no reason to listen to them or involve them in decision making.

[elfwitch]

27. similarities?

Hell you can just substitute the words Hitler, Nazi, and 1938 for Bush, Republican, and 2000, and the story is pretty much the same.

[LeahMira]

52. Raise taxes for those who never work...

He did point out that in conversations with people who agree down the line with Dem positions, but vote repuke that the #1 reason was: "the Dems will raise my taxes". They want it all, folks but don't want to pay for it.

They want it all, but don't want to pay for it for anyone else, especially anyone they think might not be working as hard as they are. IMO, the strategy for this is to point out that the folks who spend their days at breakfast meetings, lunch meetings, dinner meetings and calls to their brokers in between, are the ones who are also happily TAKING the profits from the hard work others do and making themselves wealthier. These CEOs are the lazy bums who take and take and never get their hands dirty with some honest work... not the homeless person on the street!

[Castilleja]

24. Because they are akin to the Borg

Everyone must be the same, and that's MY same. No one sticking up, no one different, all in lockstep. That's why they have such fondness for the idea that there should only be Republican office holders, and the notion that even one Democrat or Liberal spoils the purity and uniformity. Control, control, control, control. All in unison.

[Brian Sweat]

25. When you ask Americans about the policies that they support

you will find that they tend to support the policies of the left. The fact that so many Americans identify themselves as conservatives is the result of our sitting back and allowing the rightwing to turn "liberal" into a dirty word.

[AWD]

26. From my stump speech....

"...I grew up in this town, all the while thinking it was a conservative town. Turns out I was wrong! It's NOT a conservative town, the conservatives have just been LOUDER. It's time to get LOUD and take back the perception of politics in this area."

[sangh0]

29. It depends

on what you mean by "conservative". If you mean "adhering to time-tested ideas" then "Yes, we're a conservative nation". We still respect the ideas of equality, political representation, justice, democracy, merit, checks and balances, etc and still fear concentrations of power, and infringment of our rights.

If by "conservative" you mean "Agrees with the Repukes", then "No, we are not a conservative nation"

[Q]

40. Certainly you're not suggesting that 'liberals' represent...

..ideals different that what you say are 'conservative' values?

[sangh0]

41. Certainly, you're not understanding

what I've written. Again

[rucky]

39. Dualistic Thought

It's been indoctrinated into our culture, and hard-wired into our brains.

Go(o)d vs. (D)evil

1's & 0's

gay & straight

black & white

liberal & conservative

Our minds have become prisons filled with false choices.

Even moderates fall into the trap with a give & take mentality - it's an artificial form of compromise where both chosen sides end up feeling cheated. We will never find common ground on dualistic terms.

What if we got rid of political parties?

[demonstercrat]

45. Wrong

You are wrong. THis is not conservative country. I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

[Q]

46. Read the thread description before you 'disagree'...

- The premise is that many on the left and right consider this a conservative nation.

- But it's actually a cultural war...in which conservatives are 'winning' because they refuse to play by the rules now that they're in power.

[w4rma]

50. w4rma: "This is a moderate country." (n/t)

[aquart]

51. Define "conservative."

Pasting on a label without making sure of the definition only leads to more polarization.

Is a conservative in favor of paying down debt?

Is a conservative in favor of paying for capital improvements by levying fair taxes rather than increasing debt?

Does a conservative believe poor people should be allowed to starve to death in the streets?

Let's get some definition to our labels.

<still trying to find out how we define "liberal" and "progressive" at DU>

[Q]

53. I'm generalizing as much as those who continue to say...

..."this is a conservative country'. I've heard DUers say it. I've heard it a couple of times just this week on CSPAN. It that context...callers were saying that 'liberals' were destroying this country and they should just 'leave'. They went on to say that this is a 'conservative country' and liberals just better get used to it.

- We're talking cultural warfare...where those on the Right believe they are fighting in a 'crusade' to vanquish the evildoer liberals from THEIR country.

- This is the type of attitude liberals are up against. But it's not just the RWingers who think liberals need to 'go away'...now we have conservative Democrats saying or implying the same thing.

[Q]

54. conservative

conservative

adj 1: resistant to change 2: opposed to liberal reforms 3: avoiding excess; "a conservative estimate" 4: unimaginatively conventional; "a colorful character in the buttoned-down, dull-gray world of business"- Newsweek 5: conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class; "a bourgeois mentality" n : a person who has conservative ideas or opinions


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

[free_me]

55. a "disillusioned" country

I find that extreme liberals and conservatives all lack the same thing-common sense. The true "progressives" realize our whole political system is corrupt. Dems pander to media, health care, unions, and other "it's for our own good" lobbyists. Republicans pander to manufacturing, utilities, agriculture, and other "for our own good" lobbists. The very few progessive politicians have their hands tied because they are usually locked into a Republican OR Democratic party viewpoint that doesn't neccessarily reflect their own views. Instead they must promote the party's agenda to be listened to in discussions, put on committees, and in essence do what they were elected to do. If they don't the chance of reelection is slim to none without party funding or endorsements. An example is Jesse Ventura (don't completely know or care about his platform issues) who quit after one term as governor of Minn. because without party allies you can accomplish nothing. Our own voting system that came under heat for the non-majority election of Pres. Bush also put in office a non-majority holding former Pres. Clinton. Common sense tells us that the "real" politicians Republican or Democratic don't care about legal, tax-paying, hard-working Americans. Thats why most Americans just 'hope things will get better' because the only other alternative is to restructure our entire government. In the meantime we argue insignificant issues such as the confederate flag, partial birth abortion, legalization of gay marrages, and other issues that deal with a small percentage of the population instead of simplifying our justice system or ending the lobbying of OUR elected politicians. Even a simplification of taxes would be something Americans across the board would appreciate. To be a strict liberal or conservative implies ignorance to make a educated rational decision on any topic opting for the easy way feel smart-think and say what people who agree with me think and say. Until all voters unite and call for and end to the two-party system our country will stay as it has been black and white.