About Dean and the continuing saga of the Confederate

[haymaker]

flag. How long are they gonna beat that dead horse?

[alcuno]

1. I'm going to send him more money.

[Ripley]

2. So will thousands of Americans.

But Oops, that must mean we're racist. Or is it that he isn't racist, but wants to get those damn racists to vote D for a change?

How awful of him to include more people. Can you imagine if someone suggested we exclude radical blacks? I guess it's okay to try to reach everone, as long as they aren't white.

[CWebster]

3. Lol

Good idea. Me too.

[alcuno]

15. One of my favorite things about his campaign is the way people

ramp up support for him when he is under attack. I like both Dean and Clark, but Dean was my first.

[Ripley]

17. Dean and Clark together would be formidable.

I liked the way both of them handled themselves tonight.

Clark's video was kick ass too! The guy must have a great sense of humor.

[CWebster]

Agree

I also think they should reserve a place for Carol and kick the rest to the curb.

[billbuckhead]

49. Drink the Kool-Aid.. Drink the Kool-aid. It's white people favorite flavor

Send money.. send money... river city can have great marching band,,,send money,, send money

[pasadenaboy]

4. It just makes the other candidates

look desperate and petty. Dean should not apologize. The more he stands by what he says, particularly as more people gang up on him, it makes him look stronger, and it neutralized some of the cultural issues during the general election.

[liberalcapitalist]

5. it's not a dead horse

He was wrong and he refuses to admit it. I am/ was a Dean supporter. Now I am not so sure.

[Ripley]

6. What is he wrong about?

Trying to reach southern white guys who vote Repub even when it hurts them personally? Sheesh, you guys need to give me a chart or something so I can know who we include and exclude.

[papertiger]

47. white guys who voted Democrat

White guys who voted Democrat are the ones who invented the Confederacy. So why the hell shouldn't Dean go after the bread and butter of the party. Just returning to his roots.

[newyawker99]

55. Hi papertiger!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[haymaker]

9. Why again was he wrong?

I missed all those previous threads around here, and didn't even see this whole milk session until today. Have you read a transcript or seen video of his speech when he made those comments? Just hoping for a little context.

[Eloriel]

39. Here's the whole quote, as used at the DNC Winter Meeting

What was quoted in the newspaper (and I don't have that link or quote) was either a shorthand version by Dean (which he is wont to do), or a paraphrase, or a misquote. I've heard him say this many, many times in his stump speeches:

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

He mentioned tonight that he got a standing ovation at that meeting, with 1/3 African Americans there.

Eloriel

[Scott Lee]

23. Please cite specifically what he was wrong about

Or are you content to throw the South to the GOPers again in 2004, and live under four more good golly gosh nummy years of Bush?

[ShaneGR]

7. I'm not a Dean guy, but I respect his stance on this

I wish he would expound on his comments, say that he's not talking about ALL southerners. Just some.

But I respect him for engaging the issue. We need to think about it.

[w4rma]

8. John Nichols: Rebel flag flap shows media failure

If you want to understand just about everything that is wrong with the way American politics is practiced these days - and especially with the malpractice of the media - consider the absurd controversy about Howard Dean's comment that "I want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."
…
What isn't being reported is this reality: Every single presidential candidate who is now expressing concern about Dean's remark has sat in meetings where political operatives, pollsters and consultants have discussed strategies for winning the votes of white working-class males. These voters, whose economic interests would be at least somewhat better served by Democratic policies but who tend to vote Republican for social and cultural reasons, have fueled the rise of the GOP in recent years. And Democrats are obsessed with figuring out how to reach them.

So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.
…
http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

Howard Dean campaigns in Tallahassee

Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Dean, making his first campaign foray into North Florida, spoke at a rally in Jacksonville then addressed more than 500 people at a luncheon of the Capital Tiger Bay Club.
…
Dean said he hopes to reassemble a coalition of conservative southern voters like President Franklin Roosevelt had in the "solid South" 70 years ago. Although his opposition to the war in Iraq and his criticism of the Bush tax cuts do not score well in polls in the South, Dean said he hopes working families will support his call for improving education and health care.
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/democrat/7181952.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=76824

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335

[Ripley]

14. After living in Alabama for 8 years I can tell you that

many Southern blacks don't have a problem with the flag. They don't see it as a swastika. They might not like it, but don't demand that it be removed from people's personal possessions. Don't they have a say? Or is it just the say of the people outside the south?

[Clark Can WIN]

40. After living in North Carolina for 6 years I can tell you that

It's total bull to say that many Southern blacks don't have a problem with the CF and then back that up with "They might not like it, but don't demand that it be removed from people's personal possessions. "

Of course they don't......... the don't want to get their ass kicked or killed.

I believe many southern blacks have had their say about how they feel about the flag, wasn't ANYBODY listening?

[billbuckhead]

43. Bravo! Wasn't ANYBODY listening?

Why must we STILL rub that goddamned flag in their face? And also in the face of all these new immigrants coming to this land?

[CWebster]

45. Thank you for posting the above

What a relief to know there is some sanity out there. When I think of Edwards turning his back on the audience to take all his pent up frustration for his faltering campaign out on Dean, I could've kicked him.

John Nichols is one of the best political writers out there. I have really come to appreciate him lately.

[realFedUp]

10. I wonder if Al would turn down Louis Farakhan's vote....

There are many people we would disagree with in
this country because of what they've said or
stood for, but we all share the desire for
a good health plan, clean air, water, standards
for food production, a good education in safe
environments. Red, white or blue, we all want
to win and that takes votes.

[Khephra]

11. The pot question will last longer

.

[Egnever]

54. Bingo!

I was shoked when that question was asked and answered this will be heard about for a long time I think.

[ronzo]

12. He can do what he wants.

As a southern man, I'm telling you he's pissing off southern blacks and whites with this statement. He had the perfect opportunity to clear this up tonight... "a poor choice of words", perhaps. He's going to alienate a lot more voters than he'll pick up with this strategy. FWIW

ed: typo

[haymaker]

16. I just don't see it that way.

First and foremost, did you see an entire transcript of his speech? Did you see any footage of his remarks?

I just don't think a little soundbite like that has quite the effect that you are giving it.

[Ripley]

19. As Gomer would say...

Surprise, Surprise.

RE:
"I just don't think a little soundbite like that has quite the effect that you are giving it."

[ronzo]

20. My opinion... for what it's worth.

Take it or leave it.
I'm just one southern Democrat.

:toast:

[haymaker]

22. Is it a deal-breaker?

I mean, if he gets the nod, would you not vote for him?

[ronzo]

29. I will.

I'm behind any one of our potential candidates, friend. The only point I tried to make here is that if he wants to carry the south over Clark or Edwards, he needs to be a *gasp*... uniter. The redneck demographic he's trying to appeal to, offset by the typical southerner (regardless of race) he's pissing off, will result in a loss of votes overall. Using the confederate flag as a dividing point is a bad move, he should have sucked it up and admitted the gaffe.

FWIW

[Eloriel]

42. Please try to convince me that this isn't

unifying. I posted it upthread, but I'll post it again here. This is his whole quote, used often in all his stump speeches:


"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too." (big applause)

I will also say that when he came to Atlanta in August, he most certainly DID talk about race and racial issues when he addressed the crowd. He spoke very movingly (moved ME to tears), and very forthrightly. He went much further than in his usual stump speeches. It was beautiful to behold. Oh, and quite a few African American local politicians were on hand to introduce him to the crowd at the start. And his two African American Yale roommates introduced him at the fundraiser afterwards.

Finally, I'm not Southern born, but I've lived here in Georgia for nearly 20 years, the last 5 of them in a rural, very poor county. I think there are a lot of people here in my county who would be very receptive to Dean's appeal. And too many who wouldn't -- people for whom racism and other GOP wedge issues and demagoguery work very well and they like it. But they wouldn't be any more offended by these remarks of Dean than they would by anything else he did.

Eloriel

[ronzo]

46. He's got the wrong key, but the right keyhole.

At least he didn't call them trailer trash. :)

Granted, he's trying to appeal to the poor white southerner, he's just going about it the wrong way. Just MHO. I just have to tell you in all honesty, the confederate flag issue is not where he want to draw the line. That said, he can play this however he and his handlers care to.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. He really does have the right idea.


ed: clunky grammar

[Leftist78]

52. put it this way

if he'd changed a few words in that quote, we'd all be running him out of the party. Picture it this way; "Black folks in the projects who drive '63 impala's with hydraulics and have systems playing the latest hip-hop hit need to be voting with us..."

You don't have to be a genius to figure out how that statement is full of stereotypes. So is the one about people in the south. As a Southerner, I was VERY offended. I'm sick of the stereotypes. We're one of the last groups in America that it's ok to stereotype. People laugh about it all the time, but as someone who was born and raised in a poor southern family I am NOT laughing.

I was a Dean suporter untill this. I'm not sure if I am or not anymore.

[pasadenaboy]

27. So these people will...

vote for bush instead? come on.

[ronzo]

35. who, southerners?

Most of them voted for his sorry ass last time. Meh.

[Individualist]

24. As a southern woman,

I'm telling you he's not pissing off southern blacks and whites with this statement. He explained his comment very well, and his refusal to back down will strengthen his support.

[ronzo]

32. I respect your opinion.

We can disagree.

[mzmolly]

37. Where on the North Shore are you ronzo?

Curious as my state has a beautiful North Shore, I imagine many states do. :shrug:

[ronzo]

41. Right across the longest bridge in the world.

Right smack dab in the middle of the reddest damned Parish in Louisiana. Mandeville. Yeah, Northshore's all over the place. Where ya from?

:toast:

[killbotfactory]

13. As long as they think it will hurt him...

Then it will be onto the next quote they can dig up and take out of context to bash him with.

[sfecap]

18. Better question:

Why are they beating him up now?

He's been using that line for at least six months, and nobody seemed to have a problem with it. Jesse Jackson Jr. doesn't.

Desperation from candidates who know they are losing. Unfortunately their attacks only strengthen Rove's hand.

[haymaker]

21. You're exactly right about Rove.

They are taking this thing way to fuckin' far. It's almost like they want him not only to lose the nomination, but also the election. What dicks.

[sfecap]

28. It's about...

..."I can't win, so I'll tear you down..."

Watching the Democrats implode is very sad.

Although watching Sharpton act sanctimonious is pretty funny.

[w13rd0]

25. Yeah, like Gep's...

...I don't want to represent those people.

As a congressional representative for south city Saint Louis...HE ALREADY DOES! I see PLENTY of confederate flag decals around here. Hey, but all their other attacks haven't worked. They are just trying something new, unlike what they do in Congress.

[Ripley]

30. Harharhar.

Love that last line..."They are just trying something new, unlike what they do in Congress."

They certainly are showing their ignorance if they really believe everyone with a confed flag is a what? Criminal, monster, David Duke? How many college students wore it in the north at Lynrd Skynrd concerts? I was one. Was definitely a counterculture thing then.

[Eloriel]

44. I forgot about that. You're RIGHT.

South St. Louis stayed 100% white for a very long time. (Is it still? I used to live near there. In fact, grew up in Collinsville.)

Eloriel

[mzmolly]

38. RIGHT ON!

I totally agree.

[bleedingheart]

26. The confederate flag has become quite popular up North

amongst white males in the lower socio-economic rungs of the ladder. It is a weird phenomena to me but it is happening. I have driven by two homes with rebel flags flying... that is really weird here in PA.

I don't know what it is about but i fear its flown by white people who feel disenfranchised (I can't explain why) so they associate with the confederacy for some reason.... I have some ideas but don't have enough energy to type it all up.

[_Jumper_]

51. I heard it is common in Alberta, Canada too

It is part of Canadian and Yankee heritage, though, right? :eyes:

[kyrasdad]

31. I get what Dean is trying to say...

He's just not saying it very well... Hell I live in upstate NY and there are alot of guys that drive P/U's with Confederate flags on it in my neck of the woods...

He's trying to get across that these folks have been hoodwinked by the "family values, wave the flag, vote repug, good american" slop put out by the GOP for the past 10 years... Vote Democrat and abortions will be performed on the street corner, gays will be recruiting in elementary school, etc., kinda crap... he's trying to say A) it's not true and B) you have bullshitted and are now being screwed. I wish he would just come out and say that... come right out and say...

Hey... The Republicans have convinced you that you're unamerican if you vote democrat, but guess what... they're screwing you, and they're not even lubing you up or giving you a reach around... wake up and smell the coffee...

[mzmolly]

33. I agree, I do wish he said it better...

but he's saying what needs to be said, which is what's important.

In the end I think, Dean's got balz, but he needs a little 'butta'...

[mbali]

56. Do we want another president

who needs an interpreter? "He's just not saying it very well" is not a very good excuse - this man has been in public life for a couple of decades. If he hasn't yet learned to clearly articulate his thoughts without having others translate it into "what he really meant to say," he's clearly not ready for primetime.

[shance]

34. As long as the Right winged media can use it to distract from the reality

of whats going on in our country and abroad.

[Starpass]

36. I'm not a Dean supporter but

we are sure doing a bang up job of killing ourselves off, aren't we?? Any good these 9 nimrods have done in advancing our cause is starting to be shot to hell with all the interniacine wars. Go to NH and Iowa and beat the fucking hell out of each other BUT leave it off national TV because the whores are trolling and salivating. Thank god no one is watching....then again, sadly, no one is watching. I hate to the tell the boys but all of them are going to need the red necks with the flags (both confederate and bar stool star and stripes patriot variety) in this election or they will have to go out after Nov. '04 and find a real job. Why the hell can't we ever, ever, ever do anything right...why?

[billbuckhead]

48. Howard Dean himself told John Daly %70 of the people wouldn't like him.

One of the quickest ways to get people to dislike you is to talk handhanded about race. Dean's been endorsesd 8 time by the NRA. Is it any wonder he's commiting all these racial faux paus. It's like when ESPN hired Rush, what did they expect?

[w4rma]

53. Dean & Sharpton hand in hand after the debates

"Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall, Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2003. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."(AP Photo/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=650235

[TheDonkey]

50. Dean handled that question horribly!?! he really scares me when he does

that. If he would do such a flip floppy thing against Bush the media would destroy him and we will give Bush 4 more years!?

I was really shocked and saddened by how poorly Dean reacted to the question and stumbled over words to spout the same prepared lines I've heard him say for months.

He also sounded like a typlical northern elite. Something I would defend Dean against but he definetly threw out harsh generalizations and sterotypes.

Wow... just wow. Do his supporters still support this comment?