The Draft Issue---what is most sickening...

[Maddy McCall]

I find it disgusting that some of you here would be willing to see the draft enacted because it would end the Bush administration.

May I remind you that I, and other mothers and fathers here, don't want our sons used as pawns in some political chess game to bring down the administration.

Those of you who keep saying, "Yeah, let him enact the draft! Then we can be rid of Bush once and for all" are thinking no further than the end of your hatred for Bush.

Serious question: Do you hate Bush enough to see some of our own DU children forced to participate in his imperialistic wars?

I hate Bush, but I love my son more than to sacrifice him to a political firestorm.

:mad:

[JNelson6563]

1. couldn't you have posted this

in one of the other 1098440003399 other draft threads??

Julie

[Maddy McCall]

6. Uh, no.

Was there a point to your post?

This is a different way of looking at this, from a parental perspective. Don't like it? Don't post.

[JNelson6563]

54. why yes, in fact, I did

post about this very topic! Before your thread!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=644461#644985


My point was there were many threads on the draft that you could have commented on. I had just done so. But then again, my goal in posting wasn't to garner lots of attention so starting my own thread for a relevant point to an existing thread did not occur to me.

Julie

[DemLikr]

59. Lighten up...sheesh

I love folks who are so annoyed by the very existence of certain threads that they are compelled, against their own will, to read them, and then post in them, thus lengthening the life of the very thread they disdain...like you've just done.

:eyes:

[JNelson6563]

70. apparently thriving without me

and what I actually felt more compelled to do was reply to the ridiculous reason giving for grandstanding.

But whatever. It's not my bandwidth, I guess I shouldn't give a rip.

Julie

[Lars39]

2. Thank you.

They never do seem to answer the question of "which family member are you going to sacrifice?", do they?

[Tyler Durden]

42. NONE. My sons are going to CANADA....

...the day after the Draft is inacted. We have family there; they say they will take them.

If Bush WANTS the Draft, then he'll get it, and the bill has been marking time in Congress for over a year now.

[bearfartinthewoods]

102. is that the bill that Charlie Rangle wrote?

[mb7588a]

113. got a link to the bill?

[HFishbine]

3. Not to end the Bush administration

but to spread the burden to all American families. It's unconcionable that only a relative few carry the ultimate burden of this war.

[bowens43]

10. That's just nonsense.

Do you really believe that the draft would ensure the privileged would fight the wars? You are being very naive. You want to spread the burden then YOU sign up or send YOUR kids off to fight bushes war. You stay the hell away from my boys!!!!

What's unconscionable is suggesting that it's ok to force anyone to join the military. It amazes me that so called democrats or progressives would ever suggest such a thing.

[HFishbine]

12. Just my opinion

I should have added what I've stated before -- no deferments. Everybody goes. I think the only way to get the country as a whole to fully evaluate the consequences of war is for there to be a draft in times of war.

[bowens43]

13. Are you of draft age?

Or do you have sons of draft age? If the answer to these questions is 'no' then your opinion carries no weight with me. If the answer is yes then I suggest you or yours go the volunteer route.

I'm getting sick and tired of Democrats wanting to kidnap my children and send them to be killed in the oil wars. If the dems ar for the draft and repugs are against then I sure as hell will vote a straight repug ticket.

[HFishbine]

18. You kind of prove my point

I appreciate your concern. I really do. I'm sure it's one that's shared by the parents of those who are already fighting.

But, when you make it clear that you would vote for the party of war as long as it means that your son wouldn't have to fight, it kind of proves my point.

[bowens43]

32. again, nonsense.

No one is forced to join the military. Those who are their volunteered. It was choice they made. My sons will not choose to volunteer. About one thing you are right, my sons will NOT serve if there is anything I can do to prevent it and that includes electing republicans.

Now , answer my questions:

Are YOU of draft age?

Do you have sons of draft age?

If you are of draft age why haven't you volunteered?

If you have sons of draft age have you encouraged them to volunteer?

What sacrifice are YOU willing to make to more evenly distribute the burden (I mean other then suggesting it's a good idea for other peoples children to die)?

[Nashyra]

93. I have a son that is of draft age

and if a draft becomes necessary I will vote for a Democrat everytime, because that is the party that will do it's best to keep it as fair as possible, to vote for a Repuke because they say they will not have a draft is utterly stupid, they will start a draft after an election after they have promised you they would not to get your vote. Also my son is planning on enlisting in the military after he graduates from college, he currently has a small scholarship from the Retired Officers of America for his participation in the Civil Air Patrol which he has belonged since he was 11 years old, he now holds the rank of Captain and is the Cadet Advisor. I have encouraged him not to enlist, he says that if he ever wants to run for political office and change anything then he wants to have military experience. He is currently a history major and hopes to get his law degree from the military, he is only 19 but has always been very aware of what his goals are. Also alot of those who made the choice to "volunteer" had no other option for a job. You tell me can your sons afford to go to school and get a job without the help of the gov't or military? My son can , but yet he continues to see the value in enlisting much to my dismay. We need to see every young person have the shadow of the military over their heads so that are leaders know that their elected positions are in peril if they have re up the draft. My biggest reason for supporting Clark, been there done that and don't want to see anymore young people do the same thing, unlike the chicken hawks in office right now. Straight Repuke ticket, you play right into their hands.

[bowens43]

104. Your son is enlisting.

So you're not affected by the draft if it comes. Don't give me the 'no other option' crap. There's always other options. They CHOSE to enlist, they KNEW what they were getting into. Whether or not my sons can afford collage is irrelevant.

[hang a left]

50. I think that his point is, if they are going to institute the draft, not

his or my choice. THen no deferments, none, then lets see how gung ho the entire country the right left and elite are. I have a 16 year old boy. No effing was he is going.

And on edit: we can afford to send him to any college in the country.

[bowens43]

57. I understand his point, I just don't agree with him.

We all know that there will be deferements , even if they aren't called deferments. Besides , I think that it is immoral to FORCE anyone to serve in the military. My sons are not going . Period .

[dreissig]

61. Kidnapping Children

Your daughters won't be kidnapped by the draft. Just your sons. The draft is male-only.

[bowens43]

78. Yes, I'm well aware of that

I have 2 teenage sons.

[0007]

110. You may get your chance for a straight ticket, kid!!

Charlie Rangel was the first to suggest the draft.

[Maddy McCall]

14. Or perhaps for the MEDIA to report accurately what is going on in Iraq??

Force the media's hand. There are already plenty of men and women being killed in Iraq--TOO MANY. IF the media would report what is really going on over there and show the coffins of the fallen soldiers, then perhaps a groundswell of opposition to this war would emerge.

It worked in Vietnam, and it could work now.

Don't you think that even if the draft happens, the deaths will be hidden just as they are now?

And deferments would happen; it is idealistic to think otherwise.

[HFishbine]

22. Well

if the media barons and talking heads had sons and daughters in Iraq, I have a feeling you would see a more complete portrayal.

[Maddy McCall]

23. Won't ever happen...

When in history have society's elite ever been FORCED to fight wars?

When in this country's history have elite not been better positioned in ANY situation???

[HFishbine]

29. Okay

I take your point. If the contention is that there is no possible way that an equitable draft could ever be implemented, then maybe I need to reconsider.

As the debate unfolds however (if it does), my leanings would still be towards a draft that spread the burden to all American families, not just those who needed the miliatry to afford college, or those who needed National Guard duty to help supplement their incomes.

But yes, given the choice between a "draft" that was easily escapable by the well-conected and priveledged or no draft, the choice is obvious.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. WWII Rings A Bell

The Kennedy's sent their sons. Movie and music stars actually went and fought, and in some cases died.

There's been at least one war where children of privilege went and fought. They should all be such.

I understand your point, but WWII was a case in which the numbers of soldiers and sailors including the children of the rich and elite. Not to say that every rich kid did their time. I'm sure there was plenty of "getting out of it". But, less than in Vietnam, and certainly less than Iraq.
The Professor

[Maddy McCall]

117. Anecdotal...

While there were some children of wealthy in the US military, they had the option of to defer.

Throughout the history of the US, especially in the twentieth century, wage earners have supplied most servicemen and women.

[dreissig]

62. Sons and Daughters

Today, America's sons and daughters are in Iraq because they volunteered. After the return of the draft, America's sons will be sent there just for being of draft age.

[Maddy McCall]

118. We're discussing the draft; therefore, SONS

80. conscientious objection

There should always be a conscientious objector deferment.
on moral grounds.
That said, I was a conscientious objector, Vietnam & find myself thinking that there should be a draft precisely to make a generation experience first hand the effects of political decision making on their personal lives. I think the existence of a draft in the Vietnam War definitely mobilized opposition that would not have come forward as strongly if people weren't being threatened by their government so directly.
At the same time, I wish there would be engagement amongst citizenry without it being created by the evil of a draft.

[Freddie Stubbs]

4. Some people here hate Bush so much

that they would rather see this country go to pot so that Bush loses rather than see it prosper and have him for another term.

[Maddy McCall]

Oh, believe me...

I don't want him for four more years, but I don't want my son used as a tool to oust him.

[October]

9. Well said...eom

[neebob]

30. Me, either!

I have one child, a 14-year-old son. I wake up every morning hoping today will be the day George W. Bush doesn't get away with something big enough to take him down hard before the election - and I mean like tomorrow or next week, before he does more damage than can be repaired in 20 years.

I'm beginning to despise the stupid, selfish people who can't see the flashing neon sign that says "SHAMELESS LYING PSYCHOPATHIC CRIMINAL" almost as much as I despise him.

[Maddy McCall]

33. And if Bush's transgressions haven't already toppled his administration...

what makes ANYONE think that the draft would?

His domestic and foreign policies ARE ALREADY extremely detrimental to most American citizens, but people here think the draft would be the proverbial straw?

Uh huh. :eyes:

[neebob]

51. Yeah, well

I think some people's need to feel smart and thoughtful and knowledgeable and generally enlighten others with their wisdom outweighs their concern for all the people around the world whose lives have already been ruined or seriously fucked with by the Bush administration.

Most of the time I sit here carefully choosing my words - when I choose to post at all - out of fear of offending someone whose loved one has died or is serving in the military or who has been personally affected by whatever is being discussed. Then there's the prospect of being enlightened with someone's wisdom. Post more than a paragraph and you can pretty much count on some presumptuous person to jump on and argue as if it's the only thing you've ever said. Some people just love debate.

Being willing to play roulette with other people's children in a draft is almost as bad as George Bush and his cronies sending them off to die for their inheritance.

[dreissig]

66. Other People's Children

You are concerned about the unfairness of sending other people's children off to die in foreign wars. That's an inappropriate use of a gender-neutral word. The correct word is sons.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[screembloodymurder]

109. No, we hate his policies, because we know

prosperity does not trickle down like money from heaven. Wake the hell up man! NO ONE HERE IS ANTI-AMERICAN.

[Bronco69]

5. We really need to get the word out

and make the younger generation aware that if bush* is in the white house in 2004 that the draft WILL be reinstated. There is no possible way it will even be an issue in this campaign, but I guarantee if he is elected in '04 the draft is coming back. Stop the draft! Vote Bush out in '04

[E Pluribus Unum]

95. You guarantee that the draft will be reinstated?

Where did you get your crystal ball? Not one Rebub in any
elected position to my knowledge has said one word about the draft. If you know something I don't know please fill me in. One of my pet peaves about this board is that I read so many things that are not true. They seem to be based mainly in emotion. These threads about the draft is a perfect example. Only recently Dems have brought this up.

[booksenkatz]

7. Thank you

My household is currently sacrificing plenty for the Bush administration (financially)... so they sure as hell aren't going to get their claws on my son, even if it means ousting this sorry bunch from the White House.

I don't believe in "destroying the village in order to save it."

Thanks for posting your comments.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Thank YOU, patsified.

:-)

[sybylla]

11. Thanks, jchild

You have said what has needed to be said for quite some time now. My boys are 17 and 15. You will never hear anything but despair come from my lips if they reinstate the draft. Instead, I will be looking for a new homeland.

Now if people want to act like repukes and use the draft issue to inspire fear in voters, that's another story. Be my guest. Perhaps I should use it on my right-leaning parents as they have five grandchildren near draft age.

[Junkdrawer]

15. I agree *BUT* always remember there are many people...

with less-than-adequate means that have their children "drafted" by economics.

[Maddy McCall]

17. Oh how I know that...it has touched me personally...

I have a young friend who returned from Iraq in early October. He signed up with the Marines because it was the only way for him to go to college.

When he returned, the only thing he would say to us, his friends-family, is that he saw unimaginable horrors in Baghdad...he saw action there.

I do not believe that wealthy and politically connected people's children will be drafted...they will end up in the Air National Guard, perhaps, like Bush, where they will be allowed to go AWOL with no punishment, but it will still be the lower income people who are funneled to hot spots around the world.

When in history have the rich been forced to fight wars? Would a "new" draft change the current of history, go against everything that has heretofore happened?

[Cat Atomic]

16. Here's the argument for it, at least in my mind.

How many people have you met that simply do not CARE about what's happening in Iraq? They think it doesn't touch them in any way. Politics and foreign policy live in some sort of imagined fantasy land for these people- they do not care.

A draft would make the public care. Most people would have a stake in their government's actions, and they'd watch much more closely. Even when we DON'T have an warmonger in the Oval Office- even in peacetime- a draft would give the public a tangible stake in government.

I certainly understand your argument, too. That it's enabling men like Bush. I just think that it would have a moderating effect on foreign policy the long run.

[Maddy McCall]

19. See post 14 for a response to your argument.

Do you have kids? Just wondering. Willing to sacrifice them to "make people care?" Or willing to sacrifice MINE?

[Cat Atomic]

27. The media never would've started giving

an accurate picture about the war in Vietnam if it hadn't been incredibly unpopular at home already. They aren't doing it now, either, despite lots of clamoring from activist groups.

You're talking about Iraq only. I'm talking about foreign policy and public involvement in general.

This war never would've started in the first place if we'd had a draft. People wouldn't have just rolled over and lapped up the fraudulent justifications- they would've been more critical. They would've resisted the push towards war, instead of waving their flags and cheering for it like it's a football playoff.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Vietnam had the draft and it lasted, what, 10 YEARS?

Yeah, that's what we need, 10 years of the draft and body bags to get rid of Bush.

:eyes:

And, on edit, a question: How many sons do you have that you are willing to donate to stir "public involvement?"

[Cat Atomic]

39. I don't see how that matters, but no.

I don't have any children. I'm draft age myself, though.

[dreissig]

64. Just Your Sons, Not Your Daughters

Your sons have to rearrange their lives around the draft, your daughters don't. The draft is male-only.

[Fleshdancer]

20. My twisted idea...

Perhaps the draft should only be for the sons and daughters of the politicians who decide if we go to war or not?

[Maddy McCall]

21. Those are the very children who will end up in the Air National Guard

or other posh posh positions, while OUR kids end up being Marine infantry.

Economics always affect where one lands in the military.

[dreissig]

60. Daughters Don't Get Drafted

The draft is male-only.

[JVS]

24. I agree completely. I don't like being seen as a pawn for beating Bush.

This is the kind of cynicism that makes young people hate both parties.

[Walt Starr]

25. Face it, the draft WILL return no matter what

The Bushies already consider you son as fodder in their push for Empire.

The only thing that is indefinite at this point is the timing of a draft. I believe it will come back no later than November 15, 2004 but probably no sooner than November 10, 2004. I believe this is already in the plans and that an invasion of Syria, Iran, or both is on the docket for late October, 2004.

[Maddy McCall]

26. Glad you can be so blase about my son being Bush Empire fodder

And I won't "face it." It doesn't comfort me that supposed DU progressive thinkers are becoming as warmongering as this administration!!!

[Walt Starr]

37. IF you don't prepare to get your son out

he WILL be drafted.

It's no longer a question of "if", it is a matter of "when".

If you choose not to face the reality of the situation these bastards have put us in, that's your choice.

You have one year.

edited to add: I am not warmongering. I am merely stating the facts of this push to Empire. Even a Democrat elected as president next year will be hard pressed to not return us to a draft.

[Maddy McCall]

38. Can you supply the lottery numbers while you are inspecting your oracle?

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

77. Look, if you're son is between 18 and 23

the liklihood he will be drafted in the next 18 months is extremely high.

That's the point I'm making.

The likelihood only drops a little if a Democrat gets elected.

Bush is pushing empire. It's a steamroller on its way to hell and nothing can get in its way.

[JVS]

40. Will he also be drafted if a Democrat wins?

To maintain some kind of peace with honor bullshit?

[diamond14]

49. No, especially if Kerry/Clark wins...they will get us out of Iraq and

tone down the 'perpetual war' crap...policies will change, especially the bush* support of Israel, which is fueling these WARS...

but a question is:

has anyone here signed up to help defeat bush*???

is any draftees working on defeating bush*?

or are you all going like sheep...totally in denial about the upcoming bush* draft...it's definitely coming...and what are YOU doing to stop shrub? just sitting there??

here's where you sign up to stop shrub
http://www.democrats.org

[Walt Starr]

55. Probably

I suspect we'll see very high numbers drafted once the push for empire really gets going. Iraq is a staging ground and minor conflict compared to what I see on the horizon

My basis for this is the premise that we WILL be involved in another war very soon. Syria and/or Iran will be invaded and probably before the election (remember, wars push the unelected chimps numbers up).

The only thing that I see if a Democrat gets elected is that the probability of being drafted will go down, but a draft is inevitable regardless.

[Clark Can WIN]

79. It's really starting to look that way

and I'm beginning to wonder if they will even take a year to do it.

They may have to do it quick before the numbers slip much more.

[Corgigal]

116. Well

Im going to share a personal email that arrived on October 26th. Anyone can make of this what they will.
I took out certain personal items

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I am the commander of the Selective Service for the State of XX. A while back you sent an inquiry into the national web site indicating your interest in becoming a board member. I apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry. I am inquiring if you are still interested in serving on a local Selective Service Board. If so I will then forward an application for your review.


Again thank you for your interest in the Selective Service System and I look forward to hearing from you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Makes me worry.

[RichM]

31. While you have a point, your tone here shows you believe that only

only YOUR issue matters. This, frankly, is whiny and selfish. The opposing viewpoint - that the military burden should be distributed throughout society, & that this might make our population less willing to accept the waging of unjust wars - is also a strong argument. IMO, it's a lot stronger than yours, though I don't disparage the genuine anguish the issue causes you.

You are trivializing the opposing viewpoint. You are attributing the pro-draft position entirely to petty hatred of Bush, but there's much more to it than that. The fact that you misrepresent it, shows you're only considerng the aspect of the matter that affects you personally. If you're going to take a position against the draft, you should at least start with a fair statement of the opposing viewpoint.

[bowens43]

34. I have yet to see anyone on the pro-draft side

who has a horse in the race , so to speak. Do you have draft age children? Are you of draft age? If not, your opinion carries little weight with those of us you are asking to pay the price.

[Maddy McCall]

36. Thank you Bowens.

Thank you very much. :-)

[bowens43]

45. You're welcome.

I am just amazed at the number of Dems here who think it's a good idea
to force our children to kill and die for bushes oil wars. I have two teenage sons, one 17 (soon to be 18) one 14, they will NOT go into the miliatry , draft or no draft. All a draft will do is turn my sons into criminals. I just can't believe this crap. Over on the freeper board they're arguing AGAINST a draft!!! Have I entered Bizarro World ?

[Clark Can WIN]

82. Over in the freeper world theya are arguing against the draft

Because they love the war as long as they don't have to send their kids to do the dying. Period.

[bowens43]

87. spin it any way you like,

they're on the right side of this issue. A draft is WRONG. PERIOD. And I will not support any politician or any political party that is in favor of a draft.

Are you of draft age?
Do you have sons of draft age?

BTW, if you read the threads over there you will see that many of those freepers have sons, daughters and husbands over there right now.

[Maddy McCall]

35. Damn right...when it comes down to my son's life being seen as

a tool to bring down bush, I can be damned whiny and selfish.


Shoulda coulda woulda...when in history has the military burden EVER been equitably distributed throughout society.

Anyone who thinks it would be if conscription were reinstated is experiencing a HUGE pipe dream.

I am misrepresenting NOTHING. If you look at my original post, I am posting from a parent's perspective, and if you read through this thread, you will see that every parent who posted AGREES WITH ME.

Go back to the draftmongering thread if all you have to contribute is namecalling.

[LittleApple81]

41. My son won't go to a Bush invasion war for oil. We will leave the

country before doing that. I would back a WAR TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY!!! But this is not it. This is a bunch of lies to steal other countries' resources!!!!!

[mainer]

43. Another mother agrees with you!

Bush will not have my sons. We'd all move to France before that happened.

All this talk of an impending draft terrifies me. Yes, I accept the logic that reenacting the draft would also end the war sooner. But how many lives would be lost before that "sooner" comes?

Just weeks ago, I believed that it would be wrong for us to pull out of Iraq too soon and leave that country in chaos. I thought: now that we're there, we have to finish the job. But I've been thinking about Vietnam and how that very same logic led to 57,000 dead American soldiers ... and no victory.

Even if the Bushies are right -- that 85% of Iraqis want us here -- that still leaves 15% of Iraqis who want us out and will keep on killing our soldiers. That's one out of seven Iraqis who hate us. We will respond by cracking down on them harder, leading to the inevitable loss of more innocent Iraqi lives. Suddenly, it's 20% who start to hate us. We crack down harder. It becomes 30% who hate us...

There is no way out of this quagmire except to withdraw.

[diamond14]

44. "the 18 -- 30 year olds give bush* a big vote of support"

that is the primary reason why the DRAFT will be implemented sooner that they think...they love bush*....and this age group is NOT anti-war activists, do not vote...they will go like sheep to the slaughter...no questions asked...

how many on this board even STOOD UP to March in DC or SF for the recent anti-war protests??? how many ATTACKED the anti-war protesters when they returned? how many read the attacks on this board and STOOD UP to the attackers?

it's almost like the 18 - 30 year olds have BIG signs on their heads: PLEASE mr. bush*, DRAFT me as soon as you can....thank-you.

--------------------------------------------------------

Washington Post
Tuesday, November 4, 2003

Even on Iraq, the 18 -- 30 year olds give him (bush*) a big vote of support -- more than any other age group and the reverse of the over 60s. Bush has a 66 percent general approval rating among the young, compared to 51 percent among the old. How to explain it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61774-2003Nov4.html

[Liberal Classic]

46. Finally some sense on this issue

I cannot think of anything more coldly calculating than Charles Rangel's call that Democrats support the draft for no other reason that raising opposition to the Bush Aministration's foreign policy. This political strategem would backfire in so many ways that Rangel should be ashamed for suggesting it. Any Democrat thinking that it is a good idea should take a good look at themselves and wonder how they could hate the current adminstration so much that they are willing to support conscription to do it. When drafted young men are not going into AmeriCorps or the Salvation Army. One should put some thought into what conscription means as well as how someone who loves peace could propose it for any reason. There are some things that are too serious to be included in the calculus of partisan politics, and one of those things is conscription.

LC - a veteran opposed to the draft

[hang a left]

52. Please take no offense. Do we the people really have a say?

Do we really have any control?

[Liberal Classic]

53. Defeatist and wrong to boot

Get your butt out there and vote -- Frank Zappa

[hang a left]

56. I always vote. I voted for Gore. Voted for Davis the first time.

Voted no on the recall too and yes to Bustemante. I'll be voting in the primaries and the general election.

[neebob]

65. Exactly

Just about every day the Bush administration manages to remove another impediment to its continued existence. How anyone with a brain could think reinstating the draft would do anything but get thousands of kids sent off to fight and die in a long series of fraudulent wars is a total mystery to me.

[LittleApple81]

94. NOT ONE LIFE SHOULD BE WASTED FOR THE BFEE!!!!

BUSH IS A CRIMINAL AWOL, STUPID, REPULSIVE, INMORAL. Not one life (American, Iraqi, Syrian) should be wasted on behalf of the BFEE.

My son won't go! We will leave the country before that happens. I am willing to defend my country. I am not willing to have a person die for a monstrous lie and a bunch of criminals that want to destroy the world to satisfy their craven desires.

[Selwynn]

47. The people brazenly supporting a new draft don't have elligible kids..

...end of story.

I don't believe in wishing or promoting pain and suffering on the innocent for the sake of political gain. The ends do not justifiy the means. That's why I'm extremely happy is the economy really is on its way to recovery (thought I doubt it) - because real people are suffering . That's why I don't support a new draft just because it would make Bush less popular - we'd be supporting the condemnation of real kids to die for something we don't believe in.

I want Bush gone too - but I'd like to not become everything he is on the way to doing it.

[dreissig]

68. Eligible Kids

The gender-neutral word kids is inappropriate to describe the population affected by the male-only draft. The correct word is sons.

[tnlefty]

48. When they pry my cold, dead arms from around them!

I've read the arguments for re-instating the draft and I have considered them.

I also remember that my ill-informed father-in-law made the statement that he hoped that all of this would be taken care of before my kids were old enough to have to get involved. I almost screamed in his face I was so livid! I don't want my kids involved in this imperialistic mess, but I don't want other people's kids, husbands, wives, etc. dying or being wounded for this gang of greedy f*^ks either.

To bring home the reality of the consequences/results of our foreign policy I much prefer a saturation of a new form of REALITY TV! Dead Iraqi civilians, wounded civilians, along with dead and wounded military personnel, with complete stories, stories of ALL of the families and friends involved. Nothing but blood, grief on all channels. For radio, interviews, the sounds of bombs, gunfire, and the sounds of folks injured.

You know just subtle reminders that we ain't talkin' about a church social.

[kodi]

58. if there is to be a draft again, i hope women have to register too

since in the past only 1/2 of the population could be forced to serve, it would really ring home on what the draft means to the individual who gets a low number.

if women are required to register, it will force women to have a vested interest in the act of the government being able to draft people.

its not the same thing to be a mom or wife when it can happen to you instead of your kid or husband.

i am against the draft, but if it happens, women should be in that draft pool too.

and yes, i know, only congress can authorize the raising of armies and such a gender neutral draft would have to pass congressional scrutiny.

let's see how happy americans are to see 19 year old women face a draft just to serve bush's war mongering ways.

[dreissig]

71. It Won't Happen

The idea of drafting women is such a non-starter that opposition to it joins right, left and center. Not only will it never happen, it's political suicide even to mention it. The most anyone can expect is that the gender-neutral terminology that is inappropriately used to describe the population affected by the draft will yield to terminology that reflects the reality of the male-only draft.

[Clark Can WIN]

83. So.........

" its not the same thing to be a mom or wife when it can happen to you instead of your kid or husband"


Are you a mother who has suffered the loss of a child or are you just purely talking out of your ass there?

[bonemachine]

115. Drafting Women

What is really wrong with drafting women? Isn't a men only draft sexist?

[Stone Cold]

63. There's no way in hell....

....that I would ever serve in the military. Don't get me wrong, I support all those where are/were in it, but I don't believe that I should have to risk MY life for the sake of the "elected" officials. Just because I was born here doesn't mean I'm going to be willing to die for the sake of the country (or oil perhaps).

It just pisses me off on how some of you are willing to bring back the draft just to have people get pissed at Dubya. That's the most absurd thing I've ever read here.

I'm a 21 year old, I have a full life to live yet, and I should NOT have to be FORCED to fight when it's in my beliefs that fighting IS NOT the answer in the first place.

If the draft comes back, there's no way in hell I'm going to stay here. I'm going to pack up my bus and move to Canada.

This just makes me sick. :puke: :mad:

[JVS]

120. With you 100% Stone Cold

Let us remain the land of the free and the home of monster boxes ;-)

Seriously though, this draft idea is really stupid.

[Armstead]

69. Unfortunetely, I believe we need a draft threat to make this all real

I totally understand your parental position, and if I had draft age kids would probably feel the same.

I also do not want to see a draft simply to score cheap political points against Bush.

However, at this point it's much larger than that. Americans have been lulled into complacency where it is easy to support warmongering policies from a detached distance. It's easy to stick a flag on your car and be a cheerleader for idiotic wars of conquest when you have nothing personal at stake.

That has to change. If stupid people want to support an Empire, then they have to understand that there are consequences. Among those consequences is the fact that young people have no control opver their destiny in an Empire, because they are needed for the Imperial Army. And parents have to face the reality that their children are subjects of an Empire and thus are enslaved to the military needed to support that empire.

I do not support the idea of a draft. I hope that the mere possibility serious debated would start to wake enough people up. But if Americans remain blind to what is happening, then it will be necessary.

(I'm saying this with the full realization of what it means to young people and their parents. I'm one of those Vietnam era Baby Boomers. I spent a couple of years protected by a college deferment. But I also left college during the war, and sweated out being grade A draft material for a good while after that. It was only through luck that my number wasn't called.)

[dreissig]

72. Draft-Age Kids

The gender-neutral term kids inappropriately includes females in the male-only draft. The correct term here is sons.

[bowens43]

75. Are YOU of draft age?

Do YOU have draft age children? Unless you answered 'yes' to at least one of these questions you are NOT 'saying this with the full realization of what it means to young people and their parents'.

It amazes me that folks think the best way to end a war is to produce more soldiers to fight in it.

[Armstead]

86. You obviously didn't read it

I said I don;t have draft-age kids. I also said I was subject to the draft in Vietnam (which obviously means I am not draft age now).

[bowens43]

89. I did read it.

I was just pointing out that you were NOT 'saying this with the full realization of what it means to young people and their parents'. You can't possibly understand what it means to young people and their parents. What are YOU willing to sacrifice? What are you willing to give up? What do you have to offer for the cause? Of course, it has to be something as important as our children.

[Armstead]

99. You have no clue what it was like.....

I've been through the meatgrinder of sweating out the draft, made especially bad because I opposed the Vietnam Wat, and didn'r know how I would react if called up. So please spare me from your self-righteousness.

(I also acknowledged that of I had draft-age kids, I'd probably feel differently.)

[bowens43]

105. You say you know what those kids face

yet you want to put other peoples children through the same thing. I don't get it.

[Armstead]

111. Not "want to"

The last thing I "want" is a draft.

What I hope is that there will be serious enough talk about it to stir up opposition and cause people to realize the stakes of current policies.

But the possibility needs to be there to make people realize that this all isn't just a television show.

[TreasonousBastard]

73. It took a long time for that attitude...

to take hold back during Viet Nam. All our parents still had WWII as a vivid memory, and military service was a given. Except for "some" people, of course. It took a while for it to sink in that all wars were not just or honorable, or worth our lives.

I don't have draft age kids, but I was a draft age kid back then, and was drafted, so I have my own perspective on it.

My father had died years before I was drafted, but my mother and stepfather thought going in was a great idea. My grandmother, born in the 1880's and having seen many more things in her lifetime, including one son dying in infancy and another surviving the front lines in Germany, prayed and cried until I came home.

Rangel's proposal is a cynical, dangerous game. I'm not sure we could respond today the way we did after Pearl Harbor-- build a huge military from scratch-- but I can't see why we need the large military we now have.

We have bases in over a hundred countries for our "security." Much of this is left from the Cold War, where we stationed troops to stop Russians or Chinese from invading and precipitating a possible nuclear war. Much of the rest of it is nothing more than the old British Empire method of colonial troops protecting trade. We set up Navy bases the way the British did-- stepping stones around the world for fast reaction. These days, we've added air bases to the mix.

And, of course, we have all those mercenaries doing everything from fighting drug cartels to the CIA's dirty work. No one knows how may of those are really out there. Or what it costs.

I am conflicted here. I find the idea of "national service" with no exemptions and many non-military options attractive. But, I also see that as a way to expand the military even further, and far too many will find the military as their "only" option. The thought of constant war as a foreign policy makes this even more disturbing. We may be willing and able to put our lives on the line to defend ourselves, but this administration is turning the military into something that is more mercenary than defense. And it is unacceptable to sacrifice our children on the altar of commerce or ideology.

[Clark Can WIN]

74. My feelings on this are complicated, and since I have girls, I cannot

speak from the same space. But as a parent I think I can come close. I don't want any of our kids used as political pawns, I agree with that. I don't want any of our kids sacrificed to the Haliburton/BFEE oil and money machine.

But also as a mother from a working class family it hurts inside to know that most of these young people who are doing the dying are doing it because they had limited options in their pursuit of higher education. They are doing the dying while chickenhawks are waving the flag and holding pictures of * close to their heart and enjoying their fat new tax cuts and spitting in the face of those who argue against the war and the president. They are not sending their kids to die in a sandy strange hell so of course they are for the war.

I think the fastest way to get all our children home may very well be to make some of the rich chickenhawks send their children to the war. If we must have a draft, no exemptions for the rich or powerful.

That being said, if they enacted the draft and our girls were boys, we would be off to become Mexican beach bums. Viva Mexico!

So the short story I guess is I feel like most people. Not MY kid. I just happen to think that if some of the lilly white, fat and happy Bush supporters had to kiss thier sons goodbye their support for this tradgedy would cease in a flash.

[bowens43]

81. So you want to burn down the village to save it?

That's what reinstating the draft to stop a war equates too. Don't think for a moment that the wealthy will be sending their kids off to war. It won't happen. But they will be tickled pink to send my kids off to war. No one currently serving has to be there. It was a choice that they made. They knew the risk. Don't punish me and my kids because other kids made a foolish decision.

[Clark Can WIN]

90. I said if we MUST have a draft.

As I said to start with my feelings are complicated.

1. I think it's coming no matter how I feel about it. There is one universal message coming out of the Middle East right now. More troops needed.

2. Bush is not about to back down on this.

3. I think more privledged and middle class would be forced to serve this time (not all of course, I am not an idiot) because the outcry would be too intense. Every vietnam vet in the country would be on television decrying the practice. There would be a concerted effort to correct this error of the past simply because of the sesitivity of the issue as it relates to the Bushies and all their defferments like Cheney's "other priorities".

4. I don't want the draft but I didn't want the damn war either. I don't want mostly poor kids dying in Bushes war because they had poor choices. I don't want ANYBODY dying in Bushes war. I want whatever gets them home the fastest. I happen to believe a few lilly white varsity quarterbacks getting sent to Iraq may help every mothers son get a ticket home. I just want them home.

[Nashyra]

97. Foolish decision

That is what you are saying about the volunteer military? Most of these kids joined a peacetime military and many joined with the only other option being unemployment. Nobody wants to punish you and your kids. Those of us who can afford to send our kids to school and help them with there future are the same as the wealthy who do not have too see are kids join the military to have a chance at a better life, and yes they knew the risks but the risks were alot less apparent when they signed up. Maybe the threat of a draft with NO deferments might make America wake up and see what is happening. I applaud the Senators that speak out about the draft, not to be mistaken for reinstating the draft, this could be a volatile issue for the administration, they do not want to bring it up, but what is with the selective service board listing "jobs available", it's time to make it as issue.

[bowens43]

106. They joined the military!

You do realize that the entire purpose of the military is fighting wars? They knew the risk, they gambled. They lost. I feel bad for them but not so bad that I'll offer my kids as a sacrifice. IMO, unemployment beats the hell out of Baghdad.

[bowens43]

84. delete

oops

[bowens43]

85. I can't help but notice that not a single poster in support of the draft

is of draft age or has sons of draft age. Not one. I keep asking and they keep refusing to answer so I can only assume that they are willing to sacrifice OUR children while not making a sacrifice themselves. It's quite easy for those who have nothing to lose to offer up our children.

Not much different then what the neo-cons are doing now.

[Clark Can WIN]

91. At least I addmitted........ I feel the same

Not MY kids. That's the truth. I would pick up and run.

But what I am saying is the reason so much of the white middle, upper middle and upper class is so in favor of Bush and the war is THEIR kids are not doing any of the dying.

If I had to choose between a draft leading to an end of war but still had to put up with Bush for another term, OR no draft and Bush is out but war goes on.......... I want the war to end. This is not realistic of course but what I am trying to say is for me this is not about Bush per se. This is about the socially and economically disadvantaged children of the nation dying for the benifit of a corrupt administration.

[Nashyra]

96. I have a draft age son

and I am opposed to a draft, however for their to be less inclination to go to war our elected officials need to be afraid to support an illegal war and that can only happen if there is a draft where there are no deferments and there large sponsors have to think about their own kids or grandkids go. No I do not want a draft but my heart breaks for the families who have no where else to turn but the military for a leg up in society, whether it be school or a job. It's so easy to sacrifice the children of the less fortunate because our kids can afford the college education without the help of military scholarships or jobs are more available to them because they can get an education. What is the difference between those who don't have kids to sacrifice or those who have kids but can afford not to sacrifice them? We need a leader who does not wage war at the drop of a hat and knows the horrors of war, and that is no Republican running today.

[Andy_Stephenson]

101. You can add all the Dems that voted IRV

to the list to those that rushed to war at the drop of a hat.

[jenm]

88. US foreign policy

has become over dependent on the military. I agree with Clark that the US has no stomach for traditional empire, both among its citizens and within its volunteer army. I don't think there will be a draft, we don't need tons of infantry, we can sit in our air conditioned military complexes and push buttons and blow away all the bad guys we want.

If you look at how the Bushies pushed us into this Iraq situation, you have to at least consider the possibility that things over there are going pretty much the way they figured it would. Before the public would accept a draft without tremendous political repercussions, there'd have to be another Reichstag, I mean 911, I mean... oh well, you get my drift.

Anybody that welcomes a draft is really trusting if you ask me. Like deferments are going to go away for the more privileged childen among us. When did the world become fair?

I have two sons myself, 19 and 12.

[Colin Ex]

92. Yeah, that's right, guys.

When I think of things I want to do, I think fucking going to war for a cause I think is a crock of shit.

I want Dubya out of office as badly as you guys do, but my last name is not "Machiavelli." So if you want to reinstate the draft for THAT, then Jesus Christ...

:grr:

-C

[JackDragna]

98. In a word: yes.

Bush needs to be stopped. I know that's cold comfort to people that would have their children drafted, but I am so disheartened by the ignorance of modern Americans that I think the only thing that will cause Bush's ouster is the spilling of blood. The more we let him spill now, the less we spill later.

[Nashyra]

100. The only way to stop a draft

is to make it an issue sooner rather than later. Our Democratic nominees need to be asking the question "what if". what is the dunce going to do if he runs out of troops? These questions need to be asked in the context of what is happening in Iraq, our leaders need to step up to the plate and throw out the first blow. We don't want the draft but if * takes us into another arena, IS HE GOING TO REINSTATE THE DRAFT? and if he does there should be NO DEFERMENTS or no special favors for the national guard expcept perhaps veterans of WAR, maybe their kids get a shot at the cushy jobs first. Please do not interept this post as support for the draft. It is my greatest fear, so what can we do to avoid it at all cost, while still getting the message across to the powers that be that their loved ones could also be in harms way.

I posted a question on another thread, "How many soldiers that died are children of the recipients of the largest tax breaks", or how many of those large tax recipients have children or grandchildren serving in the military, maybe that will wake up some moderates on both side of the aisle

[PapaClay]

103. We may or may not

see the draft return. But no matter how it is worded; or how many loopholes are closed, the children of the aristocracy will not see combat. Bet the bank on it. They may do stateside service, or end up in non-deployable units. But they will not fight. They who have the gold, make the rules.

[screembloodymurder]

107. The draft is one way to insure our military

does not become a group of mercenaries beholding to party rather than country.

[hippiegranny]

108. my take

let me begin by saying i am NOT for the draft, even if it would bring junior down. my heart goes out to all of you with young sons who now have to face the real possibility of fleeing the country or seeing your boys march off to die for a lie.

the point i think some of the posters are trying to make is not that the draft will affect the top 1%-er bastards who will buy deferments for their sons, but rather, it would jolt out of their stupor the 40-some percent of sheeplike bush adoring flag wavers and the sleepwalking apathetics who think awol is doing a great job cause they hear it on the fox news teasers during "average joe" commercial breaks.

i seriously doubt anybody on this board thinks that the sons of fat cats are ever going to have to get their hands dirty. not in america.

[neuvocat]

112. What makes you think the draft would end the Bushes?

You're most sadly wrong if that's how you see it.

[Astarho]

114. Speaking as a 26 year old

With poor eyesight, I've got a low chance of being drafted, but I have been keeping up with this issue for the past few years.

I think a draft would make people more aware what our policy is. But the problem is by then it would be too late, as we would have a draft. It would backfire on us.

As for the sharing of the burden, the rich will never send their children (unless they get their rank like aristocracy like in medieval days) deferments or not. They can afford to send their kids to Europe or wherever for a few years.

[Spirochete]

119. No draft!

If there was a draft, the Repubs would stack the deck, just like they do in everything else, so they and theirs wouldn't have to participate. It's just a bad idea. Having everyone believing that Bush wins=draft comes back isn't a bad idea, though.