How can a guy from all white state who gives legitimacy to Confederateflag

[billbuckhead]

How can a guy from an all white state who panders to Confedrate flag wavers be our candidate? Howard Dean could have said pickup truck drivers. He could have said NASCAR dads. He could have said working class white guys alienated from the Democratic party. WORDS MEAN THINGS. Howard Dean reached out to Confederate flag wavers and by doing so gave them legitimacy. Even Zell Miller is against the Confederate flag nowdays. Once again, Dean feeds loyal moral Democrats to the alligator thinking that by appeasing the alligator, it won't eat him someday.

[mlawson]

1. Dean can't give that damn flag ligitimacy. No one can. n/t

[ima_sinnic]

2. "panders to"? "gives legitimacy to"?

you mean how can we have a candidate who includes all Americans?

go with one of the others if you think being hateful and divisive, like Republicans, is the way to win elections.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

5. No.

I believe it means how can we have a candidate who legitimizes trolling for the votes of people who are still waiting for 'the South to rise again' and all that connotes.

But Dean is ahead.

Why doesn't he take this opportunity to define his candidacy and solidify some core beliefs?

[JackSwift]

3. What has Zell said against the confederate flag?

What has Dean said for it? He said that people who have one on their pickups should reconsider their support for Bush. That they would be wise to do so. I gather that you think they should continue to support Bush.

I think Dean has decided that there is a lefty element in the party that maybe needs to be triangulated against. Kinda early for that sort of move.

[billbuckhead]

6. Zell actually tried to change the state flag which was mostly the CFB

Zell Miller gets crucified on this forum but Dean seems to get a pass even on the Confederate flag. A flag that hundreds of thousands of freedom loving men died to defeat. The Confederacy was a model for fascist regimes to come, which would lead to millions more innocents dying and enslaved. I guess history doesn't matter if you're Howard Dean.

[mandyky]

12. Dean has been saying this since Feb

DNC winter meeting speech snippet

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? You know what? White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

[mitchtv]

4. Congratulations, Karl Rove couldn't have done better

perfect puke talking point.

[pasadenaboy]

7. When did Dean say he was for the confederate flag?

You mean when he said we need to appeal to the confederate flag bumper sticker southern whites whose economic issues are best represented by the democratic party?

He was right to say it. Poor whites have always let their racial prejudice keep them from supporting progressive economics that would help them. I for one am very glad to see Dean wants to rest these people from the Repubs. more power to him!

[billbuckhead]

8. I guess next Dean will being trying to get Al Queda member to vote for him

The reason someone would have a Confederate flag on their vehicle is beacuse they wanted the Confederacy to win. THESE PEOPLE ARE LITERALLY ANTI-AMERICAN. The lunacy is that these voters wouldn't vote for a smartass Democrat Yankee preppie who approves of gay marriage if Dean gave them free ammunition.

[Eloriel]

9. Fortunately, Bill, there are those who got it right

about that statement:

Jesse Jackson Jr's statement http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html

Eloriel

[billbuckhead]

17. Did Dean say he wanted to be the candidate of the Confederate flag crowd?

Either he said that he wanted to be the candidate of those who had confederate flag bumperstickers on their pickup trucks or that was misquoted. What else is there to get right?

[ldf]

10. spin, spin, spin

it's great how du'ers will do the GOPPP's work for them.

the Guardians of Prejudice (rednecks), Priviledge (greedy rich) and Piety (rabid fundamentalists) are good at divisive spin. lies are their forte.

anyone reading dean's statement can see it. surely you all (or "all y'all", as we southerners say) can't be a product of the dumbed down america, can you?

shame, shame.

and a big shame, shame on al sharpton. he knows better, but this is politics, pure and simple.

al has a lot of good things to say, and it is good that he is out there saying them. but this little back handed slap at dean was beneath him.

if dean can get the redneck vote, while acknowledging that to many southerners that the confederate flag IS an historical symbol that is NOT based on racism, more power to him.

personally, i abhor the confederate flag. the scum of america have taken it to be their rallying symbol. those people will never vote for a democrat, so i am not concerned about them. we should not WANT their vote. but there are other southerners that are decent people that do revere that symbol.

i am a southerner, and i hate that flag. and when you see it being paraded about as an insult to black people, you can rest assured that it is the scum at work.

but i also know good country folk that consider it as part of their history.

[billbuckhead]

13. Black peoples votes in the south still aren't counted.

Al Gore would have won if black votes in the south were counted. I could puke when I hear all this pro confederacy crap on this forum. Hundreds of thousands of good men died to defeat the evil Confederate regime that stood for racism and slavery. Who could possibly be proud of that history? How is it different than the Nazi flag?

[bigtree]

19. "good country folk that consider it as part of their history."

this makes me want to puke.

defense of the south's role in the civil war? defense of Jim Crow and segregation?

What part of that history is worth celebrating?


Goddam it

[JVS]

11. Are there really no non-whites in Vermont?

[_Jumper_]

14. It is 96-97% white

Excluding the cities it is probably 99% white.

[SahaleArm]

24. Less than 3 percent.

From the Census:

Total Population: 608,827

Black or African American - 0.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native - 0.4%
Asian - 0.9%

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Read my thread about Howard Zinn -- he's able to see

how ludicrous it is to trash the Confederate flag when you consider what's been done under the American flag.

[billbuckhead]

16. And yet even more defense of the Confederate flag!

That's why the Confederate flag is often flown with the Nazi flag! They're not as bad as that American "Stars and Stripes" flag. This is the lowest point in the history of DU.

[bigtree]

18. This is the lowest point in the history of DU.

true

[jobycom]

21. Only in the intolerance of "democrats" towards others

The Confederate flag, like any symbol, is multi-dimensional. Many fly it believing they are expressing something positive about themselves, not negative about others. It's unfortunate that one of the dimensions to the flag is racism, but that is not the only dimension. Are you saying that you want those who see something positive in the flag to be excluded from the party? How about from the country? Should we put them in camps? How exactly do you see us excluding these citizens from citizenship, from rights? Are they lesser humans to you?

I'm not trying to come down on you personally,but many DUers are insulting many of my friends and family with the implication that the flag only means hate. I would fly it, frankly, for many of the things it stands for that I am proud of. But I don't like one thing it stands for, so I bury the parts of me that would be proud of the rest of it. Some choose not to bury those parts, but that doesn't mean that all who make that choice are supporting the racist meaning of the flag. It means other things. I guess you have to be southern to understand that.

As for the American flag, how do you suppose your average farmer in Afghanistan or Iraq feels when they see it? How do descendants of the original inhabitants of this land view it? All symbols have their negative dimensions.

[FrenchieCat]

26. I totally disagree.

The Confederate flag, like any symbol, is multi-dimensional. Many fly it believing they are expressing something positive about themselves, not negative about others. It's unfortunate that one of the dimensions to the flag is racism, but that is not the only dimension

That is such a load of crap. Multi-dimensional indeed! What dimensions would those be??????

Slavery was a terrible and tragic event that occurred in this land.
It happened to benefit the powerful
at the detriment of the oppressed.

This historical period left a stain
on the whole soul of this country.

The Confederate Flag,
whether one would admit it or not,
is nothing but symbol of that stain.

You can twist it, and rationalize it.....
but the truth is still plain for all to see.

What is a flag but a symbol.

One can try, but there is no excuse
why one would want to fly a Confederate Flag.

Those individuals who choose to uphold such a symbol
have not learned the lesson that should have been learned
from our history.

For that reason, Gov. Dean's words were shortsighted
and showed a lack of wisdom.

Wanting to attract votes
cannot trump the importance of the lessons
that should have been learned.

Ignorance is not bliss!

[bigtree]

27. I'll bite

What in the world is worth defending about the flag?

It may not mean hate to you or your family, but it is one of those things; a code; a symbol of slavery, oppression and succession. It can be intimidating when displayed in public; like any banner which an oppressing army bears or displays. The coveting of the symbol is abhorent to me.

It was revived to mock the new push for Civil Rights. Most important to me is that it mocks the federal government, which, notwithstanding the 14th and the 15th amendments, is the primary defender of my liberty.

You don't really expect me to defend our country's sad invasion and occupation of Iraq. We may never undo the damage that we have done there. But, we must try. I might start by stowing the stars and stripes whenever in that region. It's the least that we can do. Elevate whatever national flag that they choose. Bury the flag of the occupier. At least on their bloodied soil.

[RetroLounge]

20. Here, Read the whole quote before you spew your bile

Howard Dean in his Address to the Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting, February 21, 2003.

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Read it at: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5134

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
In response to Congressman Gephardt's and Senator Kerry's most recent attacks, Governor Dean said:

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic -- because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades -- starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

"In his historic 'I have a dream speech,' Martin Luther King, Jr., said: 'I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.' I believe Dr. King's vision still represents the future of America. And that is what our campaign is about.

[billbuckhead]

22. Why not say white folks who drive pickuptrucks?Because he wanted to pander

The Confedrate flag bumpersticker embellishment legitimized this subgroup of voters at the expense of those who have fought this crowd. Someone doesn't have this symbol on their truck unless they wanted the Confederacy to win. Is that what the Democratic party is reduced to? Aaron McGruder is right, the Republicans are the gangsters and the Dems are the punks. Dean is the ultimate pink tutu Democrat. No wonder he gets an "A" from the NRA.

[RainDog]

29. Legitimacy? Puleeeze

Dean's statement is no different than what so many of us say here all the time...

why do people vote against their interests, economically? ...and, yes, we're talking about people who include the ones with the confederate flag decals.

do all of us who say that also legitimize the confederate flag? If you think so, you need to go breathe in a paperbag for a while.

sociologically, it is an interesting thing that lower middle class whites too often identify with their oppressors, rather than those who share their circumstances, because they want to identify themselves by whiteness and the dream that they are like rich white men. Rich republican corporate whores regularly count on and pander to this, in fact.

It is in the "confederate flag decal-ers" real interests, however, to identify with the larger society, of many colors and economic levels, with whom they can unite to elect representatives who will reign in corporate welfare in order to make tax dollars available for needs of others in this country.

How is it pandering to reach out to change those hearts and minds to see what's really to their benefit?

One of the first steps to overcoming racism is to be able to "see" those you objectify and relate to them as fellow humans.

I usually don't respond to all these candidate threads, no matter who the candidate is. But really, you need to give yourself a break from this hysteria.

I'm from the south, and I don't like the mindset of those with confederate flag decals, but I don't think they're going to change if they keep getting fed a bunch of economic lies made palpable with a thick layer of bullshit racism.

But people can and do change when they are not competing for a small piece of the pie while others take the whole bakery for themselves.

[bigtree]

28. I don't think Dean is a dixicrat lover

but why focus on the racist republicans in prep for a Democratic primary?

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Sorry, what has everyone riled is what Howard said recently --

a less nuanced version of "I want the Confederate flag wavers' vote."

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. So I guess Jews are wrong for the Holocaust museum then?

I think everyone here agrees that the Holocaust was a horrible thing. So why would Jews want a Holocaust museum? Perhaps to remind them to never forget the atrocities commited against them? The Confederate Flag reminds me that a group of people were done wrong and that we should never forget that or become complacent. If we try to bury our past we are more likely to repeat it. When I lived in the south I never heard any arguing over the Confederate flag. In fact, more often than not, the loudest protesters to the flag aren't even black. Maybe, just maybe, the whole issue of the damn flag is used as a tool to further divide people.

[SahaleArm]

25. Holy Cow, Is this for real?

This has got to be the most convoluted reasoning, ever. How many blacks wave the confederate flag to remind themselves of segregation or slavery?

[sandnsea]

36. You agree with Kerry then

This is exactly what he said. The Confederate Flag belongs in a museum. Not waving at State Houses.

[Forkboy]

30. Vermont is all white?

blimey

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Only 98%. . .

I'm trying to imagine living in such a monocultural state but can't do it.

[DrFunkenstein]

33. 98% Out Of 608,827 - Which Makes The Black Population

Fred Jones. Fred Jones is 2% of the Vermont population, and damn proud of it.

PS - The 608,827 was the population in 2000. I'm sure it went up by at least a hundred, if not a hundred and ten.

[Forkboy]

34. I think I've partied

with all of them then :)

[w4rma]

35. Jesse Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

Posted by Mathew Gross at 07:12 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002084.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=631124

Did these SOUTHERN, BLACK, Baptists have a problem with Dean's remarks?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=73335