Are Progressives/Liberals Moral/Ethical?

[booley]

Ok, now that I've set it up with a leading question, let me clarify.

On another thread I am currently debating a freeper over gay marriage. No surprise, I'm sure...
and this freeper has among other things, tried to use "Morality" (which he claims that Liberals hate...) to say that gay mariage should not be legalized.

Again, no big shock, right? been done by freepers a million times over gay rights, abortion, porn, school choice, prisoner rights and the death penalty, welfare, the EPA, taxes..ect ect ect...

But while in the midst of having to explain to the erstwhile idiot that my Liberalism stems from my Morality, it hit me... I know my position is moral. I can see hwo the conservative position on mnay things is actually harmful (and thus immoral). But to ooften Liberals get smeared by the tag of immoral or hating God or whatever while cons just put the word 'GOD" on whatever they feel like doing as if that made it all right.

Have we been letting the freepers get way with claiming morality too often? What is the Moral basis for liberalism?

for example, I remember an NPR interview with Franken about him wanting to do a radio talk show and a caller who identified as a liberal said it wouldn't work becuase Liberals are for tolerance. Only a concould attack somebody.
But isn't it moral to tolerate people who merely different from you and still moral to point out when somebody is doing a bad thing? How can anyone confuse being open minded with being a wussy?

I'm certainly not trying to get a religouse debate here becuase honestly I think you all have a moral base for why you are liberal anyway (even atheists have a moral code they follow..). But I just want to know what you guys consider the moral foundation of your liberalism/pregressive beliefs...

And since I started this, I'll go first by putting in what I told the freeper who got me to thinking...

Freeper-" funny thing about that is, once you introduce the new concept of 'social responsibility'(a branch of socialism), you immediately alleviate some of the personal responsibility people have. "

Me-Not really. Not really in that social responsibility is a new concept..it was already an established idea by the time this jewish carpenter reintroduced the idea two thousand years ago.
And Not really to your hypothesis that social responsibility undermines personal responsibility since social responsibility lies in that fact that what people do affects others around them and vice versa.
It's a simple fact of life when you are a social animal dependent on others for your survival. Don't like it? Go in the woods and live like a bear.

Freeper-"The more social responsibility we allow government to take, the less personal responsibility people need to take.  More of one, means less of another.  like cause and effect."

Me-There is no inverse relationship between personal responsibility (affecting change within yourself) and social responsibility (affecting change in the world around you) . In fact, one is useless without the other.
In case you forgot, the government is formed by the people. IF the government is not doing what it's supposed to do, it's the responsibility of the people to correct the matter.

[ComerPerro]

1. There is still personal responsibility in social responsibility

FReepers confuse the shit out of me. They are horrified that the government might take 20% of their income, but they don't seem to give a shit that once the government has their money, they are distributing it between wars and the economic elites in the country. Somehow, though, if you want to take a few million of taxpayer money (their money, as they love to say) and spend it to make sure that children have current textbooks, or that veterans and the elderly can live comfortably, or that people who can't afford health care can still recieve medical care, then suddenly the FReepers are pissed and get up in arms about the "Big Government" and how fascist it is. They seem to miss the simple fact that while they are so concerned about not letting their money go to the elderly or veterans, the government is passing fascist legislation like the Patriot Act that threatens to strip away all of their constitutional rights. For some reason, this isn't important to them.

This kind of selfishness and greed can only come from intense hatred of humanity and from intolerance. Add this to the general smug, self-satisfied tone you hear from your average conservative, in addition to their affinity for bullying people, and what do you end up with?

I can't tell you exactly what you end up with, but I can tell you that all of these qualities sure as hell don't add up to a good Christian.

So, I don't hold much water to the accusations that we are "immoral".

I consider FReepers the most immoral people on the planet. Not only do they do horrible things to others, but they don't even see fit to follow the standards that they claim to believe in.

I don't follow the teachings and views in the Bible, but I don't believe in the Bible anyway. That only makes me immoral to people who belive in the Bible, but to everyone else I am moral according to the standards of society.

FReepers, however, are immoral. Not because they go against the more humanistic moral ideals that I like to try to follow, though. They are immoral because they claim to live by the Bible and its teachings, but break the moral standards set in the Bible at least once a day.

[acmavm]

2. I don't understand your dilema exactly. What is there to be confused

about? Considering that most of these people insist that they are good Christian folk, it's remarkable that they forget the warning "judge not lest ye be judged". And when Jesus was asked what was the most important message that he could impart to the faithful? I seem to remember he said that we were to love each other and to "treat others as we ourselves expect to be treated". At no time did Jesus ever espouse religious bigotry, greed, or racist ideals. That includes the killing of thousands of people of a different race and religion so that we could get our hands on the oil under the ground in their country.

The question of a person's sexuality isn't anyone's business. If they can reconcile their sexuality and their belief in God, what right does anyone else have to stick their nose into it?

And it may be a misconception on my part but isn't it the big Republican Bush supporters who are killing the best that our society has to offer? Aren't they the ones trying to make sure that we don't take care of our poor and aged? I don't think the democratic party is trying to kill medicare, make sure that prescription drugs prices are so high that many people who truly need medicine to stay alive can't afford them because the drug company wants to reap maximum profits.

It seems to me that the Democrats were the ones who were trying to preach patience when the problem of Iraq first arose. In fact, we wanted to allow the UN inspectors more time to try to get at the truth concerning the WMD fiasco. And it was the Bush administration and the republicans who prevented that from happening. They had predetermined timeline for the invasion of Iraq, and when the inspectors weren't able to find the dreaded WMDs they told them they'd better get out because we were going to "remove" Saddam one way or another. Then, when we were proven right, that the inspectors should have stayed in Iraq, the liars in this administration tried to spin the whopper that we invaded because Saddam wouldn't let the inspectors in.

This is a very over-simplified statement, and far from comprehensive. Just touching on some of the high points. A person could go on and on about right-wing hypocrisy for days. But this says to me that liberals and left-wingers have more decency and tolerance in our little fingers that you could find in the entire republican party.

[Nikia]

3. Of course

Being a Christian, I know that that Jesus was a progressive liberal and very moral even from a secular standpoint. If I could find my Bible, I'd give you some great quotes. The religious right is a bunch of Pharisees who would condemn Jesus if here were presently here in the U.S. (I mean literally, of course). His preaching that we need to show compassion and mercy to all, even our would be enemy (the Samaritain parable)is very liberal idea. He preached that none of us were perfect, but the most important commandments were about loving God and your neighbor (everyone being your neighbor) not specific religious rules like the Sabbath and keeping kosher.

[Madrone]

8. Progressive/liberal Jesus quotes -

35 "For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a Stranger and you Welcomed me,
36 "I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
40 "Truly, I say to you,
as you did it to
one of the least of these,
my brethren,
you did it to me.
Matthew 25

“He who rules his spirit has won a greater victory than the taking of a city.”


“Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.”


“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted" - LUKE 14:11


"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses" - MATTHEW 6:14-15


"Why do you call Me good ? No one is good but God alone" - LUKE 18:19


"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" - LUKE 5:32


"Beware of practicing you piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven" - MATTHEW 6:1


You call me teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done for you. (p. 50)


And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
-- Jesus (1st century)


"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:44


"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (Matthew 7:7-11)


"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:15-23)


" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "


"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " (Matthew 15:8-20)


Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. (Matthew 21:28-32)


"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.


"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.


"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:21-24)



For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14:15)
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Jesus was a SMART guy - too bad his fundies can't see it! Jesus WAS
the ultimate liberal!

[Maccagirl]

4. To answer your question

Yes.

[kodi]

5. morals are personal, ethics are social,

ethics arises from the i-thou concept of otherness. what that other is and how it is handled is a mix of personal experience and social necessity.

if these are radically different, so are the ethics.

[Skittles]

6. do repug morals

include illegally invading countries and killing thousands of people???

[KharmaTrain]

7. Two Religious Showstopper Questions...

I love getting a wingnut all warped into the next decade by asking him to prove just two simple questions whenever god or christianity is invoked:

1.) Prove there's a god. Physical proof only...no bibles, paintings, etc...only definitive first-hand hard evidence.

2.) Prove Jesus really existed. Same thing...not gospels or a rag that could have existed at the same time he could have lived. Too many inconsistancies in the Jesus story to prove he ever existed.

Then the discusion has to ride on personal morals...not imposed or dictated by others. This drives religious nuts wild as they are so inbred that the invisible cloud being really exists and his son (why not daughter?) also is a supernatural superhero with all-knowing powers.

Morality is purely individual and cannot either be dictated or legislated. To cast a judgement as to what is "moral" or not based on someone elses' writings is a sign of personal weakness. Wignuts hate being exposed for being so shallow.

[Nikia]

9. But you don't have to be atheist to be liberal

You are just ticking them off when you do that. They will never see your point of view because you've just insulted them if they identify as Christian. They aren't going to get past that. You have automatically become an agent of the devil and are clearly wrong.
As I said, Jesus was a liberal. These people have been convinced by some religious leaders that liberals are evil, but the founder (at least in teaching) of Christianity was liberal. The religous right is very much like Jesus's enemies the Pharisees. Democrats could win over these people. Of course nationally the party would not use such religious talk as the Republicans do. Liberals in the religous community should make their voice known, though. Yes, churuch and state should be separate but you have to meet people where they are. There is no reason that they cannot be liberal too and keep their religious beliefs, just I and other Christian liberals have.

[Dr Fate]

10. Many human beings have some of those qualities...

and some of them are Liberals...

[w4rma]

11. An excerpt from an interview with Gov. Dean on Larry King Live

…
DEAN: We have civil unions, which gives equal rights -- doesn't give marriage, but it gives equal rights in terms of insurance, employment rights, inheritance rights, hospital visitation, to every single Vermonter, no matter who they are.

You know, interestingly enough, Dick Cheney took a position in 2000 in the debates that is not very different than mine. He said, this is not a federal issue. I really am inclined to leave this matter to the states, and I think we ought to let states figure out how to give equal rights to everybody in the way that they do it. So I think this is kind of a political issue at the federal level, but the power to decide these things really belongs to the state level.

KING: All right. On your own state level, if it were a referendum, would you vote for gay marriage?

DEAN: If what were -- we don't have a referendum in my state, and we have civil unions, and we deliberate chose civil unions, because we didn't think marriage was necessary in order to give equal rights to all people.

Marriage is a religious institution, the way I see it. And we're not in the business of telling churches who they can and cannot marry. But in terms of civil rights and equal rights under the law for all Americans, that is the state's business, and that's why we started civil unions.

KING: So you would be opposed to a gay marriage?

DEAN: If other states want to do it, that's their business. We didn't choose to do that in our state.
…
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html
http://www.howarddean.tv/