A plea to my fellow Democrats...Let's drop "liberal" already.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

Hello everyone, my name is ProgressAlwaysWins and I am a newly registered member of DU. I hope that all of you celebrating various holidays this month are enjoying them greatly, and I look forward to getting to know you all.

I would like to bring something to all of your attention. I believe that it is about time that we, as Democrats, drop the word "liberal" from our vocabulary. I think it is an outmoded word and does us more harm than good.

The word "liberal" is the word that Republicans use to mock us. Yes, I am aware that the word has positive origins, and used to have a definite meaning in the political sphere. However, I think those days are long gone, and have probably not existed since the pre-Reagan days. The right-wingers say "liberal" in much the same tone of voice as one would use to say the word "asshole". It's been their pet insult since Reagan was president, and they spit it out like snake venom at anyone who opposes their agenda. "You're with us, or you're a liberal." "Goddamn lousy no-good liberals." And I, for one, am sick of hearing it.

I have never been comfortable being called a "liberal", even in the Clinton years when the Democrats were in power. I have never liked the way the word sounds, and I think it has some very negative connotations. "Liberal" implies being soft. Soft on crime, soft on terrorism, soft on a lot of things. That's the image they have of us Democrats. Being soft and lacking balls. And that's the image of us they've portrayed to mainstream Americans, who have largely bought into it. Liberals are pansies and want to let all the kooks and terrorists of the world victimize us. It's time we stop projecting that image and start using a stronger word.

Honestly, I think Democrats who go proudly calling themselves "liberals" are shooting themselves in the foot. The word has been associated with so much negative crap that to use it is painting a giant bulls-eye on your back. You are NEVER going to be taken seriously saying "I'm a liberal". It's time we realize that fact. Getting back to the "asshole" comparison, would you go around proudly stating to the world "I'm an asshole?" I don't know anybody who does that.

People like Coulter and Limbaugh like to go around making inflammatory statements about "liberals". Liberals love terrorists, liberals want to ban the Bible, liberals are cowards, liberals will force everyone into a homosexual marriage, liberals this, liberals that, liberals liberals liberals, la la la la la. I've gotten sick of hearing the word just from the likes of them. Most Democrats, when they hear those statements, say "Hey! That's not true. We liberals are NOT like that!"

You know what I say?

"Yeah well, whatever. I'm not a liberal. I'm a Democrat".

Or "I'm a progressive".

Let them have the word all to themselves. If we stop using the word for ourselves, the Republicans will be reduced to ranting about imaginary boogeymen. They can go on and on about how liberals want to outlaw religion and elect Osama bin Laden president, and it'll be just fine, because they're won't actually be any liberals left. Just progressives. And people will stop taking them seriously if they're ranting about a group of people who don't exist anymore.

Face it, they've turned the word "liberal" into a swear word, and there's no taking it back at this point. "Liberal" to a Democrat is like "nigger" to a black man. There are plenty of other words we can be using. Let's SEE them turn "progressive" into a negative-sounding word. Let's see them TRY to do that. There's no way they can. It's too nice of a word.

I'm pleading with the lot of you to hear me out here. I am SICK of hearing that harpy Coulter and that crackhead Limbaugh rant about "liberals are this, liberals are that". I am SICK of Republicans who think I'm an asshole calling me a liberal (and while I'm at it, today's Republicans aren't exactly "conservative" either, so we should probably let that one go too).

But, most of all, I am sick of seeing my fellow Democrats, well-meaning people, shooting themself in the foot by calling themselves "liberals", and wearing it like a badge of honor. It's not going to get you anywhere, I'm sorry to tell you. Please, let's retire this ugly and tarnished word, and find some better ones to use.

I look forward to my future interactions with you all on DU. I am a proud Democrat. I am a proud progressive. I am a proud blue-stater.

But I am not, and will never be, a "liberal".

Who's with me?

[InaneAnanity]

1. The Republicans...

...will just demonize whatever new word we pick.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

14. "The Republicans will just demonize whatever new word we pick."

That's just what I'm saying. TRY to make "progressive" sound bad. Say it a bunch of different ways and try to make it negative. You can't. It's a completely positive word. I don't think they can.

[bowens43]

19. Really?

I can't think of a way to make 'Liberal' sound bad.

[RazzleDazzle]

132. Progressive sounds pretty bad to me already

For several reasons.

First, I consider it a lame, ineffective attempt to try to slide by doing the hard work, which is standing up to the Republican demonization of the word liberal in the first place or reclaiming it now. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the word liberal or our heritage -- but RUN from it, as you propose, and there will be.

Second, I don't know for sure what the hell progressive even means. Do you progressives differentiate yourselves from us liberals? If so, how exactly?

It also doesn't sound very muscular or assertive -- and believe me, there's a lot of hay that could be made in that direction if the task is to demonize the left.

Then too I always think of Dennis Kucinich and PDA and that's yet another reason I'm not enthused with that term. I don't want to be labeled in the same group with these people. Progressive does that IMO; liberal doesn't. Can you be a progressive and not head over heels for Kucinich? I doubt it. But you sure can be a liberal and be less than impressed with him.

There's nothing to be gained from running from reality, acceding to Republican word games. Nothing.

You sound pretty young, btw. This demonization of the word liberal has been going on since at least the GHWB administration, if not the Reagan administration. They haven't fully succeeded YET. WHy would you want to give them such a hearty assist?

[kliljedahl]

177. I'm not "pretty young" & I like progressive as a term

I like Kucinich, Feingold, Conners and a few other Dems. I'm not particularly fond of Hillary & all the other DLC corporatist shills. We need a Democratic party that gets back to its roots. A few words from a recent article by Jim Hightower & then I'll link to it.

"First of all, they are them. Congressional Democrats are mired in the same swamp of corporate money that has sucked up the Republican party, and Democrats have shown (with some notable and encouraging exceptions) that they cannot be trusted to vote for the people's interest over corporate power. This is why voter esteem for Democrats has not risen as the GOP's numbers have fallen."

"How progressive? It doesn't get covered by the corporate media (imagine that), but mainstream polls consistently find that big majorities of Americans are not meek centrists, but overt, tub-thumping, FDR progressives who are seeking far more populist gumption and governmental action than any Democratic congressional leader or presidential contender has dared to imagine. In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic party:

65 percent say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.
86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").
60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.
66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.
77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.
87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.
69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."
69 percent believe America is on the wrong track, with only 26 percent saying it's headed in the right direction.

Americans might not call themselves progressive -- but there they are. On the populist, pocketbook issues that are rooted in our nation's core values of fairness and justice, there's a progressive super-majority. It flourishes in red states as well as blue, cutting through the establishment's false dichotomy of liberal/ conservative.

Here's the link, read it, then come back & stop making judgements about people's age based on one post:



Keith’s Barbeque Central

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

189. "stop making judgements about people's age based on one post"

I AM young. But, I fail to see what that has to do with anything. Why the bigotry towards the young? Why do people assume that young people know nothing? Were these people never young themselves? And how did older people treat them when THEY were young? Did THEY like it? That's what I want to know.

[kliljedahl]

192. It doesn't matter to me

You've got a better handle on it than the guy I responded to. I could have made that post & he would have responded the same way. In that case he would have been way off. Good post BTW.



Keith’s Barbeque Central

[uppityperson]

209. OP IS GONE, don't bother replying

[EFerrari]

2. Welcome to DU, ProgressAlwaysWins

This flaming liberal isn't ready for the right wing to name me.


:hi:

[MaineDem]

3. Sorry, I AM a Liberal and a proud one

I feel the need to stand up to those who have tried to steal that term and turn it into something it isn't. I'm a Democrat...a Liberal.

And welcome to DU! Glad to have you onboard with us. :hi:

[blonndee]

4. Nope. I'm a liberal and proud of it. My self-characterization doesn't

depend upon idiot rethugs' perception of me.

[Crazy Dave]

30. Welcome ProgressAlwaysWins

As I am also a newcomer. How can someone think being considered a liberal unless they've been brainwashed and indoctrinated by Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity? Since when is caring for the less fortunate, the environment, our veterans, our seniors, our education, etc. considered a bad thing?
The NeoCons would rather please 12 people in a board room and screw over 12 million Americans to do it. Is that supposed to be a good or positive thing? Is cutting education spending, making health care the highest priced in the world, the things that are associated with consevatives also a good thing? How can a poor communists dictatorship afford health care for its citizens but the wealthy republicans running this wealthy nation say we can't have it?
Welcome aboard nonetheless, good to have you, better now than never and please, shut off Rush and Sean and listen to some Air America and my favorite, Ed Schultz. You'll see the word liberal has been hijacked by people who hate America and hate the people who still love it even more.

Proud to be an American liberal!
:patriot:

Edited: blonndee, I must have accidently replied on your message rather than the parent thread, sorry.

[xchrom]

5. that is the accurate term for what we are.

it encompases progressives, democratic socialists, democrats, even some libertarians{though we fight like cats and dogs}.


don't have aproblem with it -- and i doubt you'll have an easy time selling it.

a more muscular approach in fact -- would take the word back.

[jaysunb]

6. what are you so afraid of ?

liberal is a good thing...look it up !

[citizen snips]

7. welcome to DU.

But I will not deny who I am and what I stand for. I'm LIBERAL.

[0007]

8. I'm liberal progressive and you my friend are barking up the wrong tree

[leftchick]

9. Welcome to DU PAW!

I am a LIBERAL and PROUD of it. George Clooney Speaks for me!

:hi:

[ClusterFreak]

10. I respectfully disagree with ya....

....so we drop "liberal"...then what?? If "liberal" meant something like baby-eating, grandmother-burning, necrophiliac.....then, yeah, maybe we drop the word. Otherwise, forget it. Run from a beautiful word because it has been misdefined and misused by right-wing ideologues, we run from ourselves. Take ownership of the word, and if necessary shout down all those lying sacks o' shit who wish to spout their venom about what "liberal" means to them. Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. It's a great word.

IMO. ;-)

[Warpy]

11. I'm a pinko, not a liberal

but I refuse to let the right wingers who sneer "liberal" the way they sneer "child molester" to intimidate me. If someone wants to put that label on me, I'll wear it as a badge of honor. Liberals created a great country for people to live in.

That lazy, nonthinking bigots have been trained to use it as some sort of pejorative isn't my fault. That people who do so constantly wave the flag of their utter ignorance isn't my fault. I'd rather they keep making total asses of themselves, that's the way sensible people figure out what's really going on.

[kath]

71. "liberals created a great country for people to live in"

So, SO true!

Someone, in a book within the last few years, gave a list of many things that are now very appreciated and perhaps even taken for granted, such as Social Security, Medicare, and many other programs, and pointed out that they were ALL started by liberals. It was stated very eloquently. I thought it was written by Al Franken or Michael Moore, but I've gone looking through their books for the quote and can't find it. Maybe Molly Ivins - I'm not sure if I searched through her books for it.
Anyone???

[NYC Liberal]

86. Dude, Where's My Country?

i know that there is something just like that in there. I don't have it with me, but if you do, I think it's somewhere towards the end, where he talks about how liberals are actually the majority because even though most people are for protecting the enviroment, safe working conditions, etc., they don't consider those things "liberal" they consider them "common sense," and so don't label themselves liberal even though they are.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

95. That's another reason I don't call myself "liberal"

Like you said, those things are common sense to most people. Free speech, human rights etc. are common sense to me. They shouldn't even be a point of debate, really. I don't consider them part of an agenda, and that's what "liberal" implies. Things like that shouldn't be a partisan issue. But, according to the fucktards on the right, believing in things like personal privacy and free speech are the domain of lefty wingnut liberals. Well, I don't think believing in those things makes me one. I think it makes me a decent fucking human being.

[RazzleDazzle]

140. Well, here's a version I like a lot

not from any book that I know of -- found it here on DU:

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance -- now Joe gets it, too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo.

His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries and government from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.


Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. Its noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills.


Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until-some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

Joe is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that Joe's beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees. "After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

[mtnsnake]

12. Why do you let Coulter & Limbaugh push you around? You shouldn't

That's what this boils down to. You said it yourself. To hell with what they think.

Look, maybe you're sincerely trying to help, but giving up on a word such as "liberal" would be like giving up on the best part of our identity.

We don't need to give up on the word. We just need to reframe our rhetoric to make the rest of the country realize that being "liberal" is something to be proud of not ashamed of.

BTW, if you were so uncomfortable being called "liberal" even under the Clinton years, then maybe you should re-think what party you should belong to.

In some respects, I'm not way out there on the left end of the spectrum, either, but when someone calls me a liberal, I thank them.

[Island Blue]

13. You're choosing to bring this up on the day millions around the world

celebrate the birth of Jesus - the most famous liberal ever to walk the earth? Bad timing dude.

Count me as another proud liberal!

[Caution]

15. Liberal and proud of it

I see your point, but I'm not going to bow to their crap over that word. Any time ANYONE says something about "liberalism or liberals" I just sask them if they are against Liberty. usually shuts em up.

[bowens43]

16. Forget it. It's time we waved our 'Liberal Banner' proudly.

If you're really sick of 'hearing that harpy Coulter and that crackhead Limbaugh rant about "liberals are this, liberals are that"' then stop fucking listening to them. I am a LIBERAL. I am PROUD to be Liberal. I will not support anyone who is not a LIBERAL.

Some words from another PROUD LIBERAL:

John F. Kennedy
Acceptance of the New York Liberal Party Nomination
September 14, 1960

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word "Liberal" to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

In short, having set forth my view -- I hope for all time -- two nights ago in Houston, on the proper relationship between church and state, I want to take the opportunity to set forth my views on the proper relationship between the state and the citizen. This is my political credo:

I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.

I believe also in the United States of America, in the promise that it contains and has contained throughout our history of producing a society so abundant and creative and so free and responsible that it cannot only fulfill the aspirations of its citizens, but serve equally well as a beacon for all mankind. I do not believe in a superstate. I see no magic in tax dollars which are sent to Washington and then returned. I abhor the waste and incompetence of large-scale federal bureaucracies in this administration as well as in others. I do not favor state compulsion when voluntary individual effort can do the job and do it well. But I believe in a government which acts, which exercises its full powers and full responsibilities. Government is an art and a precious obligation; and when it has a job to do, I believe it should do it. And this requires not only great ends but that we propose concrete means of achieving them.

Our responsibility is not discharged by announcement of virtuous ends. Our responsibility is to achieve these objectives with social invention, with political skill, and executive vigor. I believe for these reasons that liberalism is our best and only hope in the world today. For the liberal society is a free society, and it is at the same time and for that reason a strong society. Its strength is drawn from the will of free people committed to great ends and peacefully striving to meet them. Only liberalism, in short, can repair our national power, restore our national purpose, and liberate our national energies. And the only basic issue in the 1960 campaign is whether our government will fall in a conservative rut and die there, or whether we will move ahead in the liberal spirit of daring, of breaking new ground, of doing in our generation what Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman and Adlai Stevenson did in their time of influence and responsibility.

Our liberalism has its roots in our diverse origins. Most of us are descended from that segment of the American population which was once called an immigrant minority. Today, along with our children and grandchildren, we do not feel minor. We feel proud of our origins and we are not second to any group in our sense of national purpose. For many years New York represented the new frontier to all those who came from the ends of the earth to find new opportunity and new freedom, generations of men and women who fled from the despotism of the czars, the horrors of the Nazis, the tyranny of hunger, who came here to the new frontier in the State of New York. These men and women, a living cross section of American history, indeed, a cross section of the entire world's history of pain and hope, made of this city not only a new world of opportunity, but a new world of the spirit as well.

Tonight we salute Governor and Senator Herbert Lehman as a symbol of that spirit, and as a reminder that the fight for full constitutional rights for all Americans is a fight that must be carried on in 1961.

Many of these same immigrant families produced the pioneers and builders of the American labor movement. They are the men who sweated in our shops, who struggled to create a union, and who were driven by longing for education for their children and for the children's development. They went to night schools; they built their own future, their union's future, and their country's future, brick by brick, block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood, and now in their children's time, suburb by suburb.

Tonight we salute George Meany as a symbol of that struggle and as a reminder that the fight to eliminate poverty and human exploitation is a fight that goes on in our day. But in 1960 the cause of liberalism cannot content itself with carrying on the fight for human justice and economic liberalism here at home. For here and around the world the fear of war hangs over us every morning and every night. It lies, expressed or silent, in the minds of every American. We cannot banish it by repeating that we are economically first or that we are militarily first, for saying so doesn't make it so. More will be needed than goodwill missions or talking back to Soviet politicians or increasing the tempo of the arms race. More will be needed than good intentions, for we know where that paving leads.

In Winston Churchill's words, "We cannot escape our dangers by recoiling from them. We dare not pretend such dangers do not exist."

And tonight we salute Adlai Stevenson as an eloquent spokesman for the effort to achieve an intelligent foreign policy. Our opponents would like the people to believe that in a time of danger it would be hazardous to change the administration that has brought us to this time of danger. I think it would be hazardous not to change. I think it would be hazardous to continue four more years of stagnation and indifference here at home and abroad, of starving the underpinnings of our national power, including not only our defense but our image abroad as a friend.

This is an important election -- in many ways as important as any this century -- and I think that the Democratic Party and the Liberal Party here in New York, and those who believe in progress all over the United States, should be associated with us in this great effort. The reason that Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman and Adlai Stevenson had influence abroad, and the United States in their time had it, was because they moved this country here at home, because they stood for something here in the United States, for expanding the benefits of our society to our own people, and the people around the world looked to us as a symbol of hope.

I think it is our task to re-create the same atmosphere in our own time. Our national elections have often proved to be the turning point in the course of our country. I am proposing that 1960 be another turning point in the history of the great Republic.

Some pundits are saying it's 1928 all over again. I say it's 1932 all over again. I say this is the great opportunity that we will have in our time to move our people and this country and the people of the free world beyond the new frontiers of the 1960s.

[Nomad559]

17. I am not a Democrat

I am proud to call my self a liberal, I am also not a Democrat, I am a liberal Independent.

:)

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

18. Not to flame, but...

...if you're not a Democrat, why are you on DU? Just curious.

[Pastiche423]

49. Have you not read the DU rules?

Just curious.

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives.

I, too, am a LIBERAL Independent and damn proud of it.

[lvx35]

56. Have you guys ever meet the mythical liberal republican?

I've heard these creatures used to exist in the northwest, but are now almost extinct, rarer by far than the conservative democrat.

[Finder]

99. Many Liberal Repubs in New England. n/t

[lvx35]

111. Yeah, I meant to say northeast, not northwest nt

[RagingInMiami]

135. Are they like libertarians?

[Crunchy Frog]

107. Would Lowell Weiker have qualified?

I know he was more liberal that Joe Lieberman, and that Jerry Falwell wanted him out of the Senate, (hence his endorsement of Lieberman).

[lvx35]

112. MAybe...

To be honest, I don't know much...I just know there was a time when Conservative Democrats roamed the earth, lots of them in the south, and battled with ancient fancy lad yankee Liberal Republicans wearing tophats. At least that's my take on it ;)

[lvx35]

20. I totally agree, lets drop left too.

I think its shitty that republicans get to be "right" (also means correct) while we get to be "left" (also means abandoned) Liberal is another word like this...Apply shampoo liberally...Use lots and lots of it. Apply taxes liberally. I think the word progressive, and the term "reality based" are the words that best describe modern dems.

[bowens43]

21. Satire? I hope....

[lvx35]

23. No. Think of it in advertising terms.

"ask your doctor if democratox is left for you"
"ask your doctor if democratox is right for you"

[bowens43]

29. bizarre. Oh well to each there own.

I'm a leftist , a liberal, a progressive , a tree hugger , a bleeding heart etc.

[lvx35]

55. Yeah, its a big tent.

I'm a reality-based progressive who advocates open societies and transparency in government.

Its got kind of sci-fi ring, dontcha think? ;)

[...of J.Temperance]

158. We are a big tent, that's the beauty of our party, I'm a Centrist Democrat

But whether someone is a Centrist or a Leftie...in the final analysis we're all Democrats and we all pretty much want the same thing.

Heck, I've been drinking Tequila, it's mah favorite stuff...I better quit while I'm ahead and head off to mah bed...in case I say something either risque or dumbassed.

[sandyd921]

22. I'm proud to call myself

a liberal! Why let those a-holes define the word or us? Take it back and wear it proudly and tell them to go to hell!
:patriot:


Hi there Progress! Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Elidor]

24. What malarkey

Board rules prohibit me from telling you exactly what I think of your idea, but I don't give a good goddamn if you disapprove of the word. Having a lack of courage is bad enough, but encouraging others to "be stupid like me" is really a bit much.

[lvx35]

27. Its not stupid.

We are more conservative in most traditional ways than the Bush administration, for instance Bush is spending more liberally than any Dem president. There's nothing wrong with questioning terms.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

36. Alright...

It's my first day on this site and I didn't expect to be butting heads with somebody so quickly. But, I'm going to be the better man and shake it off. I didn't come here to fight with anybody. We ARE all on this site for a common purpose, after all...

[thebigidea]

108. you're not the one that gets to decide who's the "better man"

[Crunchy Frog]

109. You expected to post something like this and not be butting heads?

Either you didn't lurk here at all before signing up, or you're very, very naive. Anyway, welcome to DU, and congratulations on starting a REALLY controversial thread, with lots of responses.;)

[KyndCulture]

73. amen!

:bounce: :headbang: :applause:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

25. Welcome. Interesting idea. While we are tossing out

words, let's stop calling the other side conservatives.

They are definately not conservatives. Conservatives want to keep things as they are.

They are right wing zealots. Fascists. Homophobes. Irresponsible Spendthrifts. Liars. Theives. War Profiteers.

Not conservatives.

[lvx35]

28. TOTALLY!

That's why I don't mind the OP questioning them calling us liberals, when they are not conservative in any tradition meaning of the word at all!

[raysr]

32. Webster

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=liberal

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

41. Dictionary definitions are not the whole story.

What matters is how the word is being used TODAY.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

33. I agree.

Conservatives believe in protecting individual freedoms and being responsible with money. They're more libertarian. Conservatives are decent people. A bit old-fashioned, but well-meaning. These are all things that the modern right wing is definitely NOT.

Conservatives are not fascists.

I really get annoyed when people talk about politics and say "liberal" and "conservative" instead of "Democrat" and "Republican". I will tell you all one thing, seeing as I am new to this site: I will rant a hell of a lot about Republicans, but you will NEVER, not once, ever, witness me calling them "conservatives".

And likewise, I do not want to be called a liberal. What all of you want to be called is your own choice, and I'll respect that, so long as you respect mine.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

45. That's fair. It is possible that liberal has been

"burned" as a good word by the schmear shit the RW did.

I hope not. We lose so many good words from actions of idiots.

Progressive and Regressive are logical choices for the new words, but not likely to take in the media.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

69. YES!

"Progressive and Regressive are logical choices for the new words, but not likely to take in the media."

I've LONG thought that "conservative" should be replaced with "regressive" as the antithesis to "progressive". But, I thought that was my own idea, because I've never heard anyone else speak of it. "Progressive" is fairly well known, but I've never heard "regressive" before from anyone but myself. Awesome!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

104. Read this

http://www.crisispapers.org/

you will love it

[mtnsnake]

52. You know why they say liberal & conservative instead of Dem & Repub?

It's a direct result of the way Bush has divided this country. It has more to do with people on their side twisting the meaning of the word, than the word itself.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

76. Not quite...

It didn't start with Bush. It's been going on since at least Clinton, probably as far back as Bush Sr. or even Reagan.

[KyndCulture]

78. You think Clinton was a Liberal?

Oy Vey....

Turn off FOX NEWS! step away from the tv....

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

80. He sure as hell wasn't...

If we're talking strictly about the budget, he was FAR more conservative than Bush is.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

105. Further than that... Since the Depression at least

maybe more.

[mtnsnake]

144. It doesnt matter where it started. Bush perfected the attitude of division

and hatred, along with hate mongers like Limbaugh. During Bush's reign, all the words you're worried about took on a new meaning, and not a good one.

[bluerum]

26. Like you said, never. n/t

[sweetheart]

31. political correctness

There is this increasing mainstream tone, where writers are seeking to postulate
a position of political correctness. "we should/n't do/say XYZ." In this case,
"we shouln't say 'liberal'."

English is the only language we got, and the dictionary is just fine. Just because
a bunch of 2 legged earthworms who vote republican can't conscience civil debate
does not mean i flush my dictionary. Rather, i keep reminding people of the true
definitions of the words they repeat.. and in that, persons are more awakened to
just how manipulated their propaganda diet is.

If you must find a PC consensus, could we smash the televisions.

I am a human being, and never will be fit in to a label, a word, or a political
movement. But if you pick a word and say that i am "not" that, i will disagree.
If you pick a word and say i "am" that, i will disagree. Words imply a definition
of self, a consensus to see knowledge as objective, not as whatever is going on
right here, right now.

Welcome to DU, and the art of hearding cats. ;-)

[omega minimo]

46. "Rrather, i keep rreminding people of the trrue definitions of the worrds"

"Rather, i keep reminding people of the true definitions of the words they repeat.. and in that, persons are more awakened to just how manipulated their propaganda diet is."

:applause:


"the art of hearding cats"........"hearding" --is that what the Scots call it? :evilgrin:

:loveya:

[sweetheart]

138. drunken ones

merry drinking.. what day is it?

:-)

Sheep have a natural place they go togther in an open countryside,
such that a flock has a particular magnetic location it will walk
many miles to return-to. And though no person would say a sheep
"belongs" to a piece of land, the truth is that a flock indeed does
sort of "belong" to a ground, where it makes a continuous family of
survivors to be ground at the knackers or the butchers. And no fancy
words, certificates or wolly dressings replace the common sense that
sheep "hoar" (sp?). A sheep "hoar" is: (n.) a location in the wild
where a particular flock of sheep will naturally return to.
It is, IMO, very similar to the concept of a words definition like
'liberal', genetic to a flock of sheep, that they always return
to this patch of ground.

Play with the sign one might, but the patch of ground remains our
grazing space this liberal.

Oh, back to the bottle and some video games... cheers. :-)

Talk about global warming. Here on the scottish north coast,
near orkney in the far north, its 50-60's t-shirt weather when at
this lattitude canada way (59 degrees) is sea-ice and polar bears.
And with a dram of whisky inbetween, many trees got planted today,
that if i could rather turn my private-life's christmas in to a day
where trees are planted and the earth renetwed... god bless you.

[omega minimo]

222. Of course

Course the Islands would honor words not only fer whae the soun' like, like, but whae the mean.

An perhaps cats each have their own magnetic "hoar"-- which makes the hearrding so challengin.

I like your Xmas tradition and blessings. Raise one tae the stones fer me, eh?

:toast:

[Road Scholar]

34. If that Oxi-Contin sucking Beverly Hills fat ass Rush Limbaugh

hates it, then I think the Liberal nickname is something we should consider keeping 'till at least forever.
Welcome to Du
:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

[arikara]

35. Welcome to DU, ProgressAlwaysWins

I consider myself a liberal and I will never be ashamed of it.

The answer is not to stop using a perfectly good and honourable word, instead stop letting them catapult the propaganda. Just stop listening to the moranic rushes and coulters. They don't have half a brain or a quarter of a heart between the lot of them anyhow so why would you want to waste your valuable time on their screaming and shrieking idiocy?

Start taking back our language and stop letting them reframe issues to suit their nefarious purposes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Well as my name says,

I am PROUD 2 B LIBERAL.

[SkiGuy]

38. I choose to use the term Democrat

[The Crazy Canadian]

39. I totally agree with you 100%.

I'm a member of the New Democrat Party here in Canada and i would love to change the name of the party to the Progressive Party.

I think a lot of the older people here and elsewhere have a hard time changing to something new, even though it would be a great political strategic move. I think lefties should start calling ourselves progressives and we should start calling right-wingers "neocons". I suggest that because it would fracture the conservative movement like it is already doing. Anyways, language makes a big difference in how people perceive things so we should start considering dropping the liberal label. I think right-wingers would have a hard time, if not impossible time, demonizing the progressive label like they do liberal label. I think the new younger generation of lefties like to be called progressives then liberals and i'm in that camp.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

43. That's really interesting

I find your post to be interesting coming from someone living in Canada, where there is actually in fact a Liberal Party. See, in the US, when someone says "liberal", I like to say "Hmm, last time I checked, there is a Republican Party and a Democratic Party, but I don't see a Liberal Party, so I don't know why you're calling me that". Where it's the actual name of your party over there though, the situation is a bit different. Definitely an interesting take though, and I (sort of) envy you for living in a country that's not so fucked as ours right now.

[The Crazy Canadian]

75. We have a Liberal party but they've moved rightward over the years.

They are more like a centrist party now. Liberal only in name.

[kliljedahl]

179. Like the Democratic party is here now

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[beam me up scottie]

40. No.

I didn't give in when they made feminist a dirty word.

I didn't allow them to change the meaning of atheist.

I'm not going to let them force me to redefine myself using their rules.

Ever.

[Crazy Dave]

42. My father, a Kennedy Democrat....

stood up for and didn't back down with his support for civil rights either. I'm sure everyone knows what he was called for his views.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Oh yeah.

The nation could use more citizens like your father.

Democrats seem to be making a habit of backing down whenever something is too unpleasant or unpopular.

That mentality hurts us more than any word ever could.


Welcome to DU, DaveTheWave, I think you'll find many others who share your father's ideals as I'm sure you do.:hi:

[omega minimo]

44. "Getting back to the "asshole" comparison"

"Getting back to the "asshole" comparison, would you go around proudly stating to the world "I'm an asshole?"


:popcorn:






btw: A "liberal" would make the point without using the N-word (while supposedly conveying how offensive the word is).


MERYY MITHRAS EVERBUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 :kick:

[Aristus]

47. I read your post with interest and some agreement, but still, in sum total

I have to disagree with you;

I am a liberal, and proud of it.

I love watching the reactions of right-wingers when I tell them that I am a Christian, a Gulf War veteran, and a liberal.

Stops them in their tracks every time. They don't have the ability to assess the difference between what the right-wing radio blowhards spew, and the reality that is in front of them.

I'm a liberal, my friend. Now and forever.

Liberal till I die! :patriot:

[Garbo 2004]

48. What next, should we give up the word "freedom" too because the Repubs

has ill used it and made a mockery of its true meaning? What else will you cede over to the Republican noise machine? Morality? Truth? Patriot? American?

What will you do when they attack "progressive?" They can't? HA! Watch 'em. It's just a "code word" for "liberal" isn't it? Think they won't smoke out your "leftist, liberal" leanings because you hide behind the word "progressive?" If you listen to them "Democrat" = "liberal" = "traitor." So better be prepared to give up "Democrat" and "progressive" too.

Hell, cede the whole dictionary to them and remain silent. That's what they want. Smear the opposition into silence for fear of being being mischaracterized and called bad names. That tactic certainly seems to have succeeded with some folks.

And BTW, in case you haven't noticed, the Repubs and their noise machine HAVE been "ranting about imaginary boogeymen." Seems to me they've convinced you along with their fellow travelers and you've jumped on board too with your distaste for the word "liberal."

"Liberal" is "this ugly word?" What a "progressive" statement. Call yourself what you want. But the Repubs will continue to call you whatever what they want regardless.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

57. "Hell, cede the whole dictionary to them and remain silent"

What good's a dictionary gonna do them? They can't read anyway...

[Garbo 2004]

97. Cheap flippancy doesn't answer the issue. You're the one telling folks

they shouldn't use "liberal," that "ugly word."

First words are ceded because they're demonized. The next step? Ideas are ceded because they are demonized. Dissent is demonized, so give that up too. Then tell us what you stand for, after you cede it all. (The question a lot of Dem pols are being asked these days.)

I remember the 60's when people died because they stood up for their rights and beliefs. Now people who claim to be "progressive" evidently are afraid to be called "bad names?"

I'm still wondering what kind of "progressive" has such distaste for the word "liberal" to the extent that he regards it as an "ugly" word.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. They would want to change the spelling rules you know

whining and whiner would become whinning and whinner

serious would become series

huge would become hugh

and of course moron would be moran



So no I am NOT going to cede them the whole dictionary! Perish the thought. I like my language just the way it is, thank you very much.

:bounce:

[...of J.Temperance]

130. Actually, I'm a big fan of the Oxford Dictionary...n/t

[robbedvoter]

50. I'd rather drop Democrat some days...(such as kerry's concession)

"Progressives" were the ones voting Nader in 2000 and defending it - - I kinda stay away from that one for that reason.
The GOP noise machine demonises liberals? Well, that means, that's me!
So, I guess I'm not with you. You duck and cover and find a word they can't trash or an election they can't steal.
I am who I am. A liberal. Don't ask to be liked.


"I am a liberal. We live in a liberal democracy... This country was founded on the principals of
the Enlightenment.
-- Wes Clark

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndyOp]

54. I'm a socialist, democratic socialist to be specific....

About 'liberal' - they have stolen the word, let's steal it back!

Liberals brought you social security
Liberals brought you labor rights
Liberals brought you civil rights
Liberals can bring you health care for all
Liberals can bring you good public schooling for all & free college for everyone who qualifies...

:kick:

[shenmue]

58. Not me

I know what the word was supposed to mean, what it means to us, and that's what I'm sticking with.

The Republicans don't like us for our principles, and they wouldn't like us if we called ourselves the Purple Elves.

It's a little bit like saying I won't tell you what heritage I am because the guy next door to me is a bigot and I don't want to make the poor guy start a fight with me.

Awwwww!

How dare I be what I want? How dare I be happy?

How dare I force him to be disturbed by my presence?

Poor him!

I should just cringe in the corner.

No. Fuck that.

To me, a liberal is a person of mercy and social justice, of generosity and diversity, and that's great.

You call yourself a cabbage if that makes you feel better. Me, I like what I've got.

:7

[Child_Of_Isis]

59. I am more comfortable being called a liberal

than a democrat.

[nosmokes]

60. words are important, and i'll wear liberal proudly

thank-you very much. and fuck a bunch of GOPosse assholes and their shills at fox un-news.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

61. Welcome to DU

I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

That having been said, I must beg to disagree. My heritage is nothing if not liberal and no amount of semantics can change that.

Think you can't make "progressive" sound bad? Try these on for size (and bear in mind that the audience isn't "us," but "them"): "godless progressive," "bed-wetting progressive," "enviro-whack progressive." In short, it's not the word, it's the people saying it.

Since you're new here, let me suggest you read a few "Equal Time With Bob Boudelang" columns. They're brilliantly written pieces of satire and accurately mirror a lot of what is said in dead, mean-ass earnest by the other side.

So, from this liberal to you: Be what you are. I'm a liberal. You be a progressive. I have a feeling we're on the same side of the fight and could trust each other at our backs in a scrap.


And, b-t-w: I knew I forgot something today, dammit! Not a drop of Guiness in the house! Grrrr!

:toast: :beer: :toast: :beer:

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

64. Amen.

"So, from this liberal to you: Be what you are. I'm a liberal. You be a progressive. I have a feeling we're on the same side of the fight and could trust each other at our backs in a scrap."

Couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree. We're all here for the same reason, essentially.

And I love Guinness, BTW.

[shenmue]

115. Sorry about the Guinness

It truly pains me when someone is without proper refreshment.

Have you ever tried Warsteiner? It's rather nice... Also, Boddington's...

Good luck. ;)

[...of J.Temperance]

133. Sorry but Guinness sucks...a Stella Artois is far nicer...or a Shiner...

Or a San Miguel...or a Corona Extra.

[RagingInMiami]

137. Guinness is good in Ireland

It doesn't really travel well. And it depends on the way it is poured. Most bartenders in this country don't know how to pour it.

[...of J.Temperance]

145. It doesn't travel well and most bartenders don't know how to pour it...

I agree, that's probably why it tastes like watered down molasses. I've never tried an actual Irish Guinness though.

Give me a Stella Artois or a Shiner, a good Texan brew, made in Shiner, Texas :)

[shenmue]

156. Uh, JT? It was a response to *someone else*

...who said they liked Guiness. Believe it or not, not everyone agress with you! Shock!

And I've tried all your favorites. They suck.

They are like water. Please go away and leave real beer to the intelligent people. Thank you. You are dismissed.

[...of J.Temperance]

160. Hey, ah can respond to anybody that ah want to, you don't own the place

If people want to respond to someone elses response and give their own opinion, then that's allowed, that's within the DU Board Rules.

Please go away yourself, Guinness isn't even beer, it's Stout or Ale...and that's not beer. And I am intelligent, so you don't even know what the heck you're going on about.

Learn some manners.

On Edit: Boddington's...Jaysus, why not just drink car oil why dontcha.

Stella Artois is a sophisticated lager. Shiner is the best darn beer...ever.

We can agree to disagree, but don't get all uppity when someone else responds to a post that you've already responded to. I have a gold star, I can respond to anybody's post that I want to.

[KyndCulture]

62. Um, no thanks. Liberal is NOT a dirty word.

I choose not to let them win.

I am a liberal and DAMN proud of it.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

63. Let me clarify something...

I should have been more specific about one thing. It's not JUST people like Limbaugh that think it's bad to be "liberal". Most average Americans believe so too. Your average, politically moderate American voter who doesn't identify strongly with either party, and votes for whichever guy he likes better, usually has the idea that being a "liberal" is not a good thing. I think the label turns off a lot of voters, and that's even more important.

[KyndCulture]

70. Sorry to tell you MOST american's do not think liberal is a bad thing.

You are treading on flamebait BIG TIME I think... I'll just shut up now before I get in trouble.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

79. Most people I know do

Most people I come in contact with (family, friends, co-workers) say things like "I don't like Bush, but the liberals go too far", or if they're Democrats, "I'm a Democrat, but I'm not a liberal Democrat".

And I live in Massachusetts, if that tells you anything.

[KyndCulture]

81. Tells me you are talking to right wingers mostly.

And listen to Fox News too much.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

84. "Tells me you are talking to right wingers mostly"

Nope. Democrats and independents. I'm in Massachusetts, like I said.

Listen to Fox News? I never do. Well, if you mean "listen" as in "give too much credence to, even though I don't actively consume it", well then, maybe that's true. I might be guilty of paying a little too much attention to them, yeah, but it's hard not to when they pretty much despise your existence and blame you for all the woes of America.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

89. "You are treading on flamebait BIG TIME"

I didn't mean it as flamebait. Sorry you took it that way.

For the record, I'm glad I generated so much lively discussion. Not everyone has to agree with me. I didn't expect them to. The majority are at least being respectful, which I appreciate.

[bowens43]

77. Your evidecne to back up this assertion?

Or did you just reach behind yourself and pull it out of your........

Other then a couple of hard core right wingers I know, I don't know anyone who considers 'liberal' to be a negative.

[...of J.Temperance]

166. Hey what does "evidecne" mean? :) :) n/t

[troubleinwinter]

65. I am a liberal, and you listen to too much RW garbage.

[Lerkfish]

66. ever wonder why they had to add "compassionate" to conservative?

because its common knowledge conservatives have no compassion.
Have they ever had to add "compassionate" to liberal?

why not?


I'll keep referring to myself as liberal, or in the present climate: sane.

[MH1]

67. Not me, I'm liberal and proud of it.

Of course I am really "progressive" in the dictionary sense of the term but it seems that word's been hijacked by people who are really radical ("I want it all my way, now!") so "liberal" really is the best word to describe me. I'll keep it, thanks.

And I'll still call myself a progressive around people who don't think it means "radical".

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

74. I don't think it means "radical".

I think it means just what it says. Believing in progress. Wanting to make society better. Moving forward as opposed to backward.

My personal belief is that society always becomes more progressive in the long run. Progressive (or if you really prefer, "liberal" ideas) always win at some point. It might take a long time, but eventually things come around. Society never moves backward. Not significantly, anyway. The fascists hijacking our country into the 1950's now? A temporary phenomenon. They're not going to be in power forever.

As my username says, progress always wins.

THAT, to me, is what "progressive" means.

[bowens43]

82. I think progressive has EXTREMELY negative connotations.

To the average moderate, 'progressive' is not a positive.They see progressives as a nanny staters, environmentalist nutjobs, eco terrorists, those in favor making it legal for men to marry animals and very children, people who want to ban guns and the flag, people who want to legalize the murder o the sick and the poor, socialists, communists.... etc.........

[MH1]

195. Radical vs. Progressive is a question of the pace of change.

I share many of the same political ideals as "leftist radicals" except that I believe they must be (and maybe can only be) achieved by progressive means rather than radical means.

For example, if we can partially solve the healthcare crisis by expanding SCHIP a la Kerry's Kids First Act, that is a good move, even though it is not a complete solution. When we eschew small steps because they don't solve entire problem, that is not progressive. A single-payer healthcare system may be preferable in the long run but I don't believe you can get from where we are to there overnight. Yet that is what some so-called "progressives" will espouse, and they will say that there is no point to Kerry's expansion of SCHIP. However those folks are not really progressives, they are radicals, because they clearly do not believe in progressive (i.e. incremental) change, they want it all at once (i.e. radical).

So, many posters at DU who call themselves "progressive", seem to actually be radical, in that they want radical change rather than progressive change.

Does that clarify?

[DemInDistress]

68. I'm NOT with you....I'm a Democrat...progressives should take

a back seat and allow the Democrats to proceed. Do you support Howard Dean? Are you "progressives" a radical
group of "Democrats" looking for the Democratic spotlight? What goes on and BTW how old are you? If you are over 40 I'll give you a break. If your a youngster under 30 I refuse to participate with you.
Let's get rid of "liberal" is way off base we need those liberals more than you "progressives".

on edit: I'm 59

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

83. Well, THAT sounds rather bigoted...

Yeah, I'm a young guy, so you don't have to listen to me. That's fine, it's no skin off my back. Why do older people always assume that younger people know nothing? Weren't you also young at one point?

[in_cog_ni_to]

100. The LIBERAL badge....WEAR IT WITH PRIDE!

Never, ever, ever let repukes dictate who you are, what you are, how you feel or why you feel the way you do! They're REPUKES! Why on earth would you give a crap about what they think? Why would you be ashamed of people who have given you clean air to breath? Why would you be ashamed of people who have given you clean water to drink? or fair pay for a days work? No slave labor? Safety in the workplace? Or roads and infrastructure? Or the right to vote? Or given a woman the right to CHOOSE? Or Unemployment benefits? Or Social Security? Or Medicare? Or Medicaid for the poor? Or the Head Start program? People who actually CARE ABOUT THE LESS FORTUNATE in this country? Why? Be PROUD. Limpballs, Ann-the man-Coulter, Insannity and O'LIElly are a bunch of hate-mongering, greedy, contemptible and loathsome assholes. Why in the world would you care what they or people of their ilk say/think? Liberalism is something to cherish and be proud of and I do/am.

LIBERAL AND PROUD OF IT!

[DemInDistress]

163. I hear you....I'm a life long Democrat and very proud of that...

but what the hell is a "progressive"? tell me so I can understand. Are they radicals? Are they attempting to
gain control of the Democratic Party? Will they split the Democrats? This youngster who suggests "liberals"
drop their name is ludicrous. I just have some doubts and reservations about "progressives".
Thanks for the feedback though,I appreciate that...............................

[RagingInMiami]

120. What's wrong with the word progressive?

Has everybody lost their mind today?

Progressive means looking forward, towards the future, it means progress.

[kliljedahl]

214. Well I'm 56 & I agree with him

What's age got to do with it?



Keith’s Barbeque Central

[kath]

72. No slam to the original poster, but this post shows just how

effective the right wing noise machine, AKA the Mighty Wurlitzer, really is.

Sad, sad, sad.

[ismnotwasm]

85. Words are very powerful

Whether we wanted to or not, whether we agree with you or not, we will never shake the word liberal. Some of us tried--that's partly where "progressive" came from.

The republicans, or what my "paleo-conservative" brother would call "neo Conservatives" (He despises them, and he and I have more in common politically than I would have EVER thought possible) have been very successful at framing words, changing their identity in the public eye. My brother does not consider him self a republican at this time. He considers himself an old school conservative and as a conservative Catholic, he is consistent in being anti-choice, anti-death penalty, and anti-war. I respect his consistency, even when I don't agree on certain issues. But there are places were we meet, and agree, and when that happens, It's very good. Or we're able to find ideological compromises. We have the ability (not always) To discuss not argue. There are some emotionally charged issues like a women's right to choose abortion where we will NEVER agree.

I will never find those occasional compromises with the right-wing conservative group, whose only interest is in dividing people into "us against them" in a move to consolidate power.

As has been pointed out, word like "liberal" and "feminist" now have a negative connotation. I will never give up being a feminist or using the label, it's something I'm very proud of, and something I believe in on the most profound level of my being.

I feel the same way about being liberal. It, too is something I'm proud of, and something I believe in, It shapes my behaviors and beliefs and where I place my energy in activism. The very nature of the word is freedom to me. I don't allow others to define what a liberal is, or should be or should do for me, anymore than I allow them to define what a woman is or should be or should do.

That's why what you're proposing wouldn't work. The only way to fight framing is with re framing. Taking back the word liberal. Standing up for it. Proudly labeling oneself liberal if that is what one is---And many of us don't like labels. Why do so-called "conservatives" wear that label so proudly? Are we, then to slink away and use words that are less manipulated, more pleasing to the media? You think we wouldn't get jumped all over trying to distance ourselves from a word whose wearers once changed the fucking world?
A word that stands for world human rights, women's rights, stewardship and conservation of the land, the ending of war, of racism, of sexism of ageism. A word that stands for holding back unbridled government power and corruption. A word that loves and respects the US constitution. A word that recognizes that denying basic human rights on the basis of sexual orientation is wrong and, if I may use the word this holiday, evil? A word that wants to see universal health care, equity in trade with other countries, a word that supports unions and the rights of workers. I could go on and on with what the word "liberal" means to me.

And I'll be god damed if I allow the media, the republicans, the blind followers who can't think for themselves take away who I am.

But welcome to DU, I hope you're having a great holiday season. As you can see, there are many opinions here, and mine is just another one.

[MoonRiver]

87. I think we should stop calling Repukes "right".

This has been a beef of mine for a long time now. How the blankety blank did we let them get away with categorizing themselves as "right" and us as "left"???? Those freaks are masters when it comes to coining catchy political sound bites, and that one was their first and most brilliant linguistic coup, imho.

P.S. Welcome to DU! Home of the brave and still free! :hi:

[KyndCulture]

88. regressives works for me.

[MoonRiver]

91. Works for me too.

But "wrong" really hits the nail on the head.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

93. I know there is a historical reason for the "left/right" terminology...

I'm not sure, but I think it was in the French Parliament or something like that. All the officals sat at a long table organized by how conservative or progressive they were. Conservatives sat on the right and progressives sat on the left. I'm pretty sure that's where it came from, don't quote me on it though.

[MoonRiver]

96. Thanks. I've wondered about how the terminology came about.

Guess the cons ran lickety split to the "right" side, before progressives realized they were being blindsided. Same ole same ole.

[helderheid]

90. I agree, and I'm recommending. Hee I am first! Welcome to DU!

[LiberalPartisan]

92. No thanks

Thanks for the post but I'll keep the moniker Liberal. I'm a Liberal not a Progressive.

[guajira]

94. I call myself a conservative Democrat and a Progressive

I have some friends who are very liberal, but I don't agree with them on many issues.

I'm very conservative fiscally and wish other Dems would be also. I believe in a secure border and do not support a National health plan, although I do agree we need intelligent changes to our current system.

Welcome to DU. It would be good to see someone besides me get "flamed" for a change!!

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

98. I also have four or five issues that I agree with the right on

But I'm not going to say what they are just yet. I don't want to get flamed too much too soon. When all is said and done though, I am still a Democrat, even though I disagree with the party's stance on a number of things.

[RagingInMiami]

117. Not only are you ashamed of the word liberal

But you're afraid to state what issues you believe in and don't believe in. Is there anything you're comfortable doing?

[...of J.Temperance]

129. Heck

That was a :spank:

[DemGirl7]

101. Dropping the word "Liberal" would mean saying that the Right wing has won

So what if the Right wing demonizes the word "Liberal", they would demonize any other word we come up. I know you are tired of being demonized by the right like the rest of us, but if we drop the word "Liberal" we are just letting them win in a way.

[Lorien]

148. Yep-I won't allow them to manipulate me. I'm a LIBERAL, and damn proud

to be one-like Jesus, Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and many more of the greatest human beings who have graced this planet.

Take back the word and demonize all the REPUGS, I say!

[Crunchy Frog]

102. I tried dropping the word "liberal" from my self description.

I eventually decided that I was allowing the right wing to define me, and that I would henceforth define myself as the proud liberal that I am.

We need to reclaim that word. Take it back with pride, and advertise its real meaning. Our problem as liberals is not that the RW has made it a dirty word, they can and will do that with anything, it's that we've allowed them to take it from us and redefine it. We need to take it back and show that we're proud of who we are.

I am, and always will be, a liberal.

[Trajan]

103. Proud to be Liberal ....

Why run away from it ? ...

DEFEND it ! ...

Liberal Agenda ? .... BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO OUR GREAT NATION ! ....

[mandyky]

106. No matter what we call ourselves the media labels us as liberal

Howard Dean was a fiscal conservative, was against most federal gun control, and many other conservative values. But because he was against the "unilateral invasion of Iraq" and was very vocal about Bush's shortcomings, the media labeled him liberal.

I am a proud liberal, a proud veteran, and a proud Bush opponent. I can back all my points, unlike Rush, Hannity, and O'Liely who have to lie to dumb folk, rapturites, and other low on gray matter types. Rush also melts Communism, Socialism, Fascism, and Liberalism together, and his idiot followers buy it hook, line, and sinker.

I refuse to back down and run from the liberal label. Better to educate people than further dumb them down.

[PurityOfEssence]

110. I couldn't disagree more. Be proud of the term and fight class warfare.

We've been successfully scared out of admitting precisely what is right about a pluralist mindset: experimentation and the ongoing attempt at fairness and coexistence.

By knuckling under to asshole conservatives who prey upon our collective image-consciousness to scare us away from what we are, we prove them to be correct: they believe in something and we don't.

Liberalism is a good thing; get out a dictionary and look it up. They have deliberately attempted to demonize the term and get us to run away from it, so to cave to bullying is to embolden them even more. Many people who distance themselves from the term are doing so by calling themselves "progressives", and although many adopt that label for other reasons, many are just being cowed.

There are so many times when I'm sparring with conservatives that I identify myself as a liberal and leave them spluttering. They can't believe that anyone hasn't caved in to their self-congratulatory propaganda that it puts their brains on "tilt" and stalls them from parroting much of the rest of their ditto-headed nonsense. Many simply can't believe it, and they're left dead in the water.

[Garbo 2004]

113. He says he's not a liberal. So this thread isn't about his self-definition

He's telling those of us who are comfortable with the word liberal that we shouldn't use it and furthermore that it's an ugly word (and perhaps concept?) that we should stay the hell away from.

This guy's tells us he's not a liberal. I take him at his word. I suspect he may think we not only shouldn't use the term liberal but shouldn't be liberals either. So IMO it's more than just the use of the word.

[shenmue]

124. Yeah

It sounded weird to me...

:o

[RagingInMiami]

114. You're crazy

I will never drop liberal from my vocabulary. To me, it means "with liberty and justice for all."

In fact, I wear that label proudly on a T-shirt for the world to see. If you're not comfortable with the word liberal, perhaps you should post on a right-wing website.

[...of J.Temperance]

127. That's a

Very nice T-shirt.

[RagingInMiami]

128. Thanks

A fellow DUer made it for me. Barackmyworld. She makes personalized T-shirts and sells them.

[...of J.Temperance]

151. The

Black and red go nicely. Well done to Barackmyworld :)

[RagingInMiami]

169. Brackmyworld

Rocks my world

[uppityperson]

153. Way nice shirt! nt

[bear425]

181. Hey.... I know you. And I love that shirt and the term liberal.

I will never allow anyone to hijack the term liberal. I am a proud liberal. It's a wonderful way to describe oneself.

Pendejo, on the otherhand, is not. ;)

[RagingInMiami]

216. What's happening Bear

How are you feeling today? A little hungover? I was this morning.

[bear425]

217. Just a wee bit. Egg nog is not my friend.

Feeling pretty well now, though. I'm in a chasing disruptor mood. Feel a bit like Nancy Drew tonight.

Hope you had a nice Christmas and will have a fantastic New Year!

[yardwork]

116. Liberal doesn't go far enough - I'm now a SOCIALIST

Far from backing off, I'm pushing forward. Liberalism doesn't reflect the extent of my views.

I now tell people that I am a Socialist. I believe that the country should have nationalized health insurance guaranteed to all. Taxes on the wealthy and upper middle class should be higher and we should provide better schools, better health care, better daycare, better public transportation - free of charge to everyone. Environmental laws need to get much stronger, not weaker. Set aside a lot more land free of development. Buy less, have less, market less, shop less. Eat better (more fruits and vegetables, a lot less meat and processed food), get more exercise from walking, have fewer things, spend more time in spiritual contemplation.

I like watching their heads explode.

[A Simple Game]

118. You know what?

I remember a time when no one called themselves progressive, nor did anyone call themselves neocons. Everyone seemed to get along better than they do now.

Liberals and conservatives knew that things weren't black and white, everything was a shade of gray. You just tried to get the gray as close to black or white as you could.

Neocons and it seems many progressives now seem to think only in the terms of total win or total loss.

I am a proud liberal, and will stay a liberal, thank you anyway!

[KalicoKitty]

119. I am proud to be a Liberal!

:patriot:

[Kansas Wyatt]

121. Why don't Democrats, when they get air-time,

Just rebut the 'Radical Right' slur, by throwing out some Democratic Party talking points, which explain exactly what Liberal Ideals have done for the American People?

People want to know why poor and middle class people vote Republican, when they are voting against their best interests. Because, when a Republican and Democrat are on tv, and the Republican labels the Democrat as a "liberal" in a slurring way, the Democrat just takes it.

Hello Democratic politicians!
You need to brainstorm to come up with simple quick talking points, that explains to the American People exactly how liberal government has benefited their lives. Then the American People will realize, who exactly WILL make their lives better, and who is disrespecting what benefits them.

[mmonk]

122. I don't let my enemies define me,

so I have nothing to fear like the DLC'ers. I'm actually moderate but moderate today is LIBERAL. What's passing for moderate these days is conservative. I'd rather define my enemies. If the democratic party would do that instead of running away from labels, they would win.

[Ksec]

123. So lets demonize their name

I understand what youre saying and I agree that the word Liberal has been demonized by 24/7 propaganda of the Reicht. Conservatives took great pride in saying what they were. I understand , but I dont agree to changing our label. We are what we are.

I made a post a while back saying we should stop saying neo cons . It implies that Conservatives are good, neocons are not. We need to stop that. Theyre all Conservatives, regardless of whether they are neocons or right wingers or whatever. They allowed themselves to be taken over by the far right so they are to blame. No conservative should be differentiated from any neocon. They are one.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

126. Wow, little more than I expected on my first day here...

So my first thread got some mixed reactions, but I'm glad it got so many replies just the same. Honestly though, I hope I haven't made any enemies so soon. I'm here for the same reason all of you are. No hard feelings with those who disagree with me, I hope.

[mmonk]

136. Nope, no hard feelings.

It's better to be on the offensive than being defensive about labels. I say call the repukes "regressives" and "extremists" and dismiss them when calling you liberal. If they don't think it bothers you, then they use it less. Liberal isn't a bad word anyway.

[Nabia2004]

149. As an ex-koolaid drinker, I'm trying to embrace the word liberal

I understand where you are coming from with the progressive thing, but I was thinking just the opposite in that it was time bring the word liberal back. Start a proud to be liberal campaign.

Personally, I was thinking of doing this as soon as I come out of the closet. My wingnut family and friends still think I am one of them.

[uppityperson]

131. I'm a flaming liberal

calling me a liberal is NOT the same as calling a black man a nigger. I'm honored to be a liberal and it gets me lots of respect from those I can respect in kind. Liberal implies the ability to be open-minded, to be a humane human. Sorry if you disrespect me, but I AM a liberal.

[RagingInMiami]

141. That was a horrible analogy

And very disrespectful to all the black people on DU

[uppityperson]

146. I very much agree

very disrespectful, makes me wonder, you know?

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

152. If any blacks were offended, they can take it up with me themselves

They don't need you to be a mouthpiece for them. I think it's pretty condescending that you feel YOU need to speak for them, like they can't do it themselves.

[uppityperson]

154. I and my friend are both offended

liberal and black. You assume too much.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

161. Well, then...

I'm sorry you took it to be racist. I didn't mean it to be racist. I could say I'm offended that you assumed from my comment that I was a racist when that was decidedly not my intention.

[uppityperson]

165. "[Liberal" to a Democrat is like "nigger" to a black man]

is a pretty poor analogy. Calling me a liberal is not the same as calling a black person a nigger. If you truly believe this, you have no idea how offensive "nigger" is.

Edited to add: and is pretty darn condescending yourself. Protesting over poor treatment of a group of people you say is being a "condescending mouthpiece"? Wow.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

164. Fine by me...

You know, I've been pretty civil in this thread. You're perfectly free to disagree with me, but you could have been respectful and polite in your disagreement rather than getting confrontational and uppity. Name-calling is against the rules here, so whatever punishment from the moderators awaits you, you deserve it.

[uppityperson]

167. raginginmiami isn't the uppity one here

sincerely, uppityperson
by the way, all, alert is your friend, rather than calling each other out.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

171. "alert is your friend"

I'm one step ahead of you.

Seriously...if typical DU threads have THIS much hostility, I doubt I'm going to enjoy my stay here very much (or be here long). We shouldn't be having flamewars on this site, for crying out loud, we are ALL DEMOCRATS. Disagreements are one thing, but do you think we're ever going to accomplish anything if we're fighting amongst EACH OTHER? I sure as hell didn't come here to fight with anyone. If people don't like my suggestion, that's fine, but there's no reason for anybody to be rude.

[uppityperson]

174. as I said...

(They don't need you to be a mouthpiece for them. I think it's pretty condescending that you feel YOU need to speak for them, like they can't do it themselves.) is pretty condescending.
edited to replace square brackets with curved ones to make what I wrote come through. sorry

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

173. Maybe because I read the rules before posting?

Whatever. You're in the wrong, and you're going to get punished for it. Obviously, with all the time you've been here, you never have. I don't know what anybody did to piss you off today, but it's not my problem. I've been civil. I have nothing more to say to you.

Fighting with a fellow Democrat...hmph. No wonder we aren't getting anywhere.

[RagingInMiami]

176. Get off your high horse

You're not fooling me. You want to know what pissed me off? This:

"If any blacks were offended, they can take it up with me themselves

Edited on Sun Dec-25-05 09:03 PM by ProgressAlwaysWins

They don't need you to be a mouthpiece for them. I think it's pretty condescending that you feel YOU need to speak for them, like they can't do it themselves."

I get pissed when I state my opinion, and somebody comes after me and starts putting words in my mouth.

When I stand up for black people, it's because I have black friends and I know how pissed they would be at hearing you compare the word "liberal" to the word "nigger."

And I have no problems fighting with a so-called "fellow democrat" if that person displays ignorance.

[uppityperson]

183. exactly.

saying calling someone liberal does not have the same insult as calling someone a nigger is not "needing to speak for them" but stating my opinion, based on years of life experience, including being called and hearing others called negative names. Telling me I am being a mouthpiece for a group by saying that these 2 terms are not equal, are a bad analogy is insulting. That is my problem here, way beyond whether or not "liberal" is insulting at all.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

184. That's too bad.

If you got pissed off at my comment, then it's because you took it in the wrong manner. I stated plain and simple that I was using the word in a non-racist context, and if you still took it to be racist, then that's YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM. You might not be aware of this, but it IS possible to use a racist word in a hypothetical, non-racist context. And, as I said, if my comment (erroneously) offended any African-American people, then they are perfectly capable of confronting me themselves and telling me that. In fact, one did, and I responded by clarifing the tone of my earlier statement. I find it more offensive that YOU think you need to have a patronizing attitude toward any blacks that MIGHT have been offended, as if they need somebody else to get all righteous in their defense. I'm assuming you're not black, seeing as you would have told me if you were by this point. Blacks (or any other group of people which you do not belong to, for that matter) do not need you to step in and defend them from things that might offend them. They're adults, and they can do it for themselves. To think otherwise is insulting them far more than I ever did.

Guess what? Your inflammatory posts towards me were deleted, as I had predicted they would be. So, you WERE in the wrong. Isn't it funny how a noob like me can have a better understanding of the rules of the site than a supposedly elite experienced user such as yourself? You've got a pretty big ego there. I've played by the rules all along and haven't done anything to warrant this kind of abuse. Either disagree with me in a civil, respectful manner or piss off.

[RagingInMiami]

198. Rules and liberals don't really go hand in hand

I speak my mind and if my posts get deleted, so be it. But you did hear what I had to say and that's all that matters.

And if you still don't get it, let me break it down for you.

For centuries, the word nigger was used when white people lynched black people.

It was the word they used when white people sold, traded and bought black people.

It was the word they used when white slavemasters raped black teenagers.

It was the word they used when white people made black people walk to the back of the bus.

It is a word that has been dehumanizing black people for centuries.


And you believe that word is equal to the word "liberal", which comes from the Latin word liberum, which means "free" -- the complete contrast to what black slaves were when they were openly called niggers?

So you piss off.

[beam me up scottie]

203. Exactly how does one use a racist slur (n*gger) in a "non-racist context"?

You're not fooling anybody.

[omega minimo]

225. Same way one uses Repug talking points to start a flamewar-- on Xmas!

Diss-ingenuously.




Hi Beam :hi: :hug: Happy Holy Days

[beam me up scottie]

228. Hi O !

You caught that before anyone else did, as usual.

Happy holidays to you!

[mtnsnake]

180. Oh geez

"whatever punishment from the moderators awaits you, you deserve it."

Yeah, I'm sure he's shaking in his boots.

BTW, if you "have never been comfortable being called a "liberal", then what are you going to do if any of your peers find out you're hanging out in such a LIBERAL forum?

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

186. Actually, it's a "Democratic" forum.

"Liberal" is just a word that many people here use to describe themselves. I do not. But I am still a Democrat. Pretty simple, really.

[uppityperson]

188. Nope, here is "who we are"

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

190. Yes...

So where's "liberal" in that paragraph? I didn't see it.

[uppityperson]

194. OH, so because I call myself a "liberal" I shouldn't be here?

or do you mean I must call myself a "progressive"?
By the way, my comment was in direct response to your "it's a Democratic forum", needed to point out it is not a "democratic" forum but for democrats and other progressives. Oh dang, or does that mean I can not call myself a "liberal" but only a "progressive" or I must leave DU. confusion confusion confusion.

[beam me up scottie]

212. Damn right you're not a liberal, we don't glibly throw around racial slurs

and then whine about getting flamed for using them.

[mtnsnake]

227. You love pulling people's chains, don't you. You think you're clever

Otherwise you would've answered my question with a relevant reply instead of skirting it with an uppity, non-relevant response.

You're only kidding yourself if you think you can come on here and fool anyone for more than a short time. You're only lucky that the folks around here have been humoring you, mostly for kicks...so far.

[beam me up scottie]

230. It's okay.

He's gone.

Kind of sucks to get a mad-on and lose your target, you know?

Happens to me all the time.:D

[mtnsnake]

233. Thanks. Yeah, when I went back to the thread after posting, I saw

that he/she/it got the hammer. LOL

I actually think the mods let us toy with this loser a little longer than usual just bacause it's Christmas!

[beam me up scottie]

235. LOL !!!

It was a nice Christmas gift, wasn't it?

Reminds me of the way the stray cats I feed play with a dead mouse before losing interest and eating their kibble !

[uppityperson]

197. you mean "progressive", right?

:sarcasm: since calling us "liberals" is comperable to calling us "niggers" :eyes:

[mtnsnake]

219. oops! yeah, I meant "progressive"

Does that count as a flip flop? :evilgrin:

....and what a dumb analogy that "liberals/n****r" thing was. Sorry, but I hate the N word more than anything, almost as much as the OP'er hates the word "liberal". And besides, his analogy was not even close, like someone else, I think you, pointed out.

[omega minimo]

202. DON'T USE THE WORD. NO ONE HAS TO "TAKE IT UP WITH YOU"

:evilfrown: It's not about you-- it's about respect. You know well enough not to use that word. You know what pain it causes. :puke:

A "liberal" could make the point without using the N-word.

If you are not already aware of this, perhaps DU can enlighten you.

:kick:

[JackDragna]

134. I will not let the Republicans take and own the word.

To be precise, a "liberal" is anyone who is for representative government and the welfare of the masses over the few. Liberalism is a political reaction to the monarachy and authoritarianism that dominated Europe. Most of America's conservatives are "liberals," in the strictest sense of the word.

I will not surrender the name to people because they smear me with it. To do so is to do the kind of weak-kneed, pathetic backpeddaling that's gotten liberalism and the Democratic party into trouble. Whenever someone smears you with "liberal," tell them the reason we got rid of child labor is because of liberals. Tell them the reason we have a 40-hour work week and employee benefits is because of liberals. Tell them the reason rural areas of the nation are electrified is because of liberals. Tell them the reason women and blacks can vote is because of the influence of liberals. Tell them their money in the bank is insured against loss is because of liberals. Tell them the food they eat and the water they drink is safe because of liberals. Tell them they cannot be discriminated against in the workplace because of their race, gender, religious or political beliefs because of liberals. Tell them they can drive safer cars because of liberals. Tell them their kids can be educated for free because of liberals.

To be blunt, the problem is not the word, the problem is backing off the word. Liberals have done pretty much everything in this country, and in western society in general, to make things more livable, fair and humane. Conservatives have stood for the status quo and for an establishment that profited from idiocy and injustice. The next time someone denigrates you for being a liberal, you mention the things I posted above, then call them a reactionary waste of chromosomes.

[Norwood]

139. liberal and proud

We need to take back the word liberal, not dismiss it.

[man4allcats]

142. I think, therefore I'm a

Liberal. Put that on your T-shirt and wear it. It's on one of my T-shirts, and I wear it and they hate it and I really don't give a damn. And you shouldn't either. Buck up! Who cares what these so-called "mainstream Americans," as you call them, have largely bought into? If they're dumb enough to buy into that kind of logic, then they deserve the type of government that comes with it. These mainstream Americans you refer to are largely responsible for the fact that this asshole is in office. True, Diebold is no less responsible, but Diebold could never have pulled it off if there weren't so many ignorant mainstream Americans who were willing to go along with Dubya's bullshit in the first place. Describe yourself any way you like, but I for one have neither the desire nor the intention to placate anyone with a change of verbiage. Liberal is what I am - and damned proud of it! And by the way, I live in Texas so wearing that T-shirt is about as close to "in your face" as it gets!

[salvorhardin]

143. Belated welcome to DU!

And be sure to stop on by and check out the Carnival of the Liberals, the blogosphere's only liberal blog carnival. :hi:

You can read the first edition at Brainshrub.
http://www.brainshrub.com/cotl1

The second edition is up at Neural Gourmet.
http://www.neuralgourmet.com/carnivaloftheliberals/cotl2

The third edition of the Carnival of the Liberals will be up on Wednesday, January 4th at Science and Politics
http://sciencepolitics.blogspot.com

And, of course, all the information you need to know about participating and hosting Carnival of the Liberals is up at the home site.
http://carnivaloftheliberals.com

[progdonkey]

147. Homos...

Cowering in a corner and screaming "am not" or implying the same by dropping the label when being bullied by a couple idiots because they're calling you a "liberal" or saying bad things about liberals is like doing the same when someone keeps calling you a "homo sapien."

"Hey! Check out the Homo Sapien!"

"I'm not a homo sapien!"

"Yes you are!"

"Am not!" etc.

Like the simple scientific term "Homo Sapien," "Liberal" is a word with a specific and, in the case of Liberal, very honorable meaning. Just because some RW nutjobs keep misusing it and try to make it seem like something to be ashamed of, doesn't mean you should give in because they're big or loud.

When others hear Coulter rant on and on about "liberals this" and "liberals that" and you respond with "am not!" they believe that Coulter must be right: being a liberal is something to be ashamed of. If, on the other hand, you wear the label proudly, the hypothetical observers will realize it as what it is: a bully trying to make fun of someone by just calling them meaningless names.

Instead of the earlier exchange, the correct response would more likely be,

"Hey! Check out the Homo Sapien!"

"Are you stupid or something? Of course I'm a Homo Sapien! Hey, everybody, this idiot over here doesn't know what 'homo sapien' means!"

"Shut up!"


You're exceedingly misguided if you think surrending to them on this matter will make them leave you alone. Eventually, they'll just start the whole process over again with "progressive," and you'll be coming back, crying that you hate being a "progressive" and you'll come up with some other label to identify yourself with.

[beam me up scottie]

175. Hey, that's pretty good.

Very inventive-I'll have to use that next time instead of trying to educate the ineducable! :toast:

[Time for change]

150. Fuck those Repuklicans

We can't let them define our vocabulary for us.

I'm sure you have good intentions, but I very much disagree.

There is nothing wrong with being a liberal. Liberal does NOT mean soft on crime or soft on terrorism, or soft on anything.

You say that you are a progressive, not a liberal. So what makes you a progressive, RATHER THAN a liberal? Those things that the Repuklicans have defined for us? If we claim we're not liberal, but progressive, they'll just turn around and do the same thing with that word. Do you think they'll like our policies any better just because we use a different word?

[jarab]

155. Welcome to DU!

I see where you're coming from.
Some of your viewpoints are obviously in the minority (here), but DU is not representative of the Democratic Party, and I suspect the Democratic Party is pleased to disavow many of "our" views.
I come closer to being a Dem liberal than a DU liberal, and there is a difference. I pray you're truly liberal enough to accept if not embrace those of the latter group.
Again, Welcome!
...O...

[AgadorSparticus]

159. Never. I'm a liberal and I could give 2 shits what the RWgers make of the

"liberal". They don't define ANYTHING for me. I define it for myself. They'll try to hijack the meaning of everything if you let them. The trick is to counter their psychological spin.

[AlCzervik]

162. What will you call yourself when they demonize "Progressive"?

I'm a liberal and thats that.

[SmokingJacket]

170. If we keep running away from words like "liberal" there won't be any left.

Pretty soon whatever they call us with be an insult. You think "progressive" is okay now... wait till next week.

And anyway... what the fuck is wrong with "liberal"? You talk about the connotations, but so what? "Democrat" has exactly the same connatations among assholes.

[Individualist]

172. Horse hockey!

The word liberal is neither ugly nor tarnished, and the damn neocons do not define who I am.

[mdmc]

178. never! I'm a liberal progressive

liberal = big gov.
liberal = intelectual
progressive = leftish
progressive = foward thinking

I am for big government, tax and spend REALITY! Dig it!

[BiggJawn]

182. Whut-Eh-VAH.

I'm a Liberal and PROUD of it, squid.

So what are you gonna to do when the GOP "tarnishes" "Progressive", "Democrat", and "Blue-stater"?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

185. Not with ya, though I appreciate the sentiment. I'm damn proud of the

liberal label. Whenever someone says it with that 'tone' I say "you're damn right I'm a liberal, and I'm damn proud of it. Thank god I'm intelligent enough to not be a republican sheep"

Don't ever let them change or take away what you are with their hate filled rhetoric. You are a liberal, and should be proud to stand up and proclaim it. The more we stand in their face and say "you are damn right, I am a liberal to the core and couldn't be more proud", the more we turn the derogatory connotation around. You disarm them completely when you respond with pride. But you let them win and get the better of you when you respond with your head down feeling shame while responding "no I'm not, really, I'm a progressive".

Just my thoughts on the matter :)

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

187. Feeling shame?

I don't feel any shame when I say that. It's more like, "Fuck you, I'm a progressive, go to hell". Said with my head held high. But, I get your point.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

191. Your whole OP shows you feel shame when called a liberal.

I didn't say you feel shame when called a progressive, but I think you made it fairly obvious that you do in fact feel shame at being called a liberal. And my position was that if you have the perception that when they just called you a liberal it was as if they called you a bad name, than they will pick up on that and they got the better of you. But if when they call you liberal you stand up straighter, look them dead in the eyes, and proclaim "fuck yeah I'm a liberal and I couldn't be prouder" than you have just disarmed them completely.

[ProgressAlwaysWins]

193. I understand...

My whole point was that that's kind of like being called an asshole, and then saying "Yeah, I'm an asshole, and I'm proud of it". You might be proud, but you're still calling yourself an asshole. Which is fine if you're Denis Leary, but most people wouldn't do it. But, we can agree to disagree, that's fine.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

196. For The Record, I'm Proud To Be An Asshole!

hehehe :)

Generally, That which views me as such must've behaved in such a manner of ignorance or selfishness that they brought that side out of me, so FUCK EM, I'm proud to have stood up in defense if that's what they called out of me lol

I hear ya though, and I guess we will agree to disagree, but my point is just that mentally you shouldn't relate the word liberal as anything derogatory to begin with, though asshole definitely is negative.

Merry christmas by the way!

[grumpy old fart]

200. Could someone explain the emblems next to the topics (i.e. flaming mark)

And happy Saturnalia to you!

[uppityperson]

204. it means a hot topic

lots of posts happening fast. Happy Saturnalia to you too.

[grumpy old fart]

205. Much thanks.

:yourock:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

206. Saturnalia? No idea what... Ahh, actually I'm disinterested. The Flame

is a sign of a hot topic meaning it got a certain number of posts. Somethin like 60 or 70. A newspaper type icon means news story, the question mark is a question, the poll bars means poll, etc.

[uppityperson]

199. Now "liberal"="asshole"?

hahahahahaha

[Tactical Progressive]

201. I couldn't agree more about the word 'liberal'.

I've never liked it, as a word, even since before it became a smear. What does the word 'liberal' mean outside of a political context? Nothing, that's what. I like a 'liberal' scoop of mashed potatos with my turkey. I like a 'liberal' dollop of whipped cream on my pudding. The word is almost creepy just in and of itself.

It means nothing in the larger lexicon and politically nothing more than what we tag it as representing, which we can do with any word.

'Progressive' on the other hand, both
1) has meaning as a concept, as a word outside of politics
2) represents politically what we stand for, probably better than any other word

which makes it
3) virtually as impossible to demonize as the progressive political principles that it represents

Be against progress, Republicans. You are anyway, so at least it fits and you'll be making your deep intentions visible every time you try to smear the word or its carriers.

And 4) besides being a good word definitionally and politically, "progressive" is a good word phonetically. It is hard, sharp and incisive, not a blubber-lips word like liberal. I know, marketing is meaningless. Sure it is.

I can understand the attitude of not wanting to cede such central language to the right wing hate-mongers. I don't want to cede a single, miniscule thing to these greedy, bigoted fascists. I understand too that 'liberal' represents good. I realize these things, but giving up debased language that hurts us is, in the real world, a small sacrifice, and there are better words that represent good.

I honestly think that I'd want to drop the word 'liberal' even if it were held in high esteem instead of low. It doesn't do more to represent what we stand for than any word we might choose to do that, and certainly in every way less than the word 'progressive' does.

'Progressives' is what we REALLY are. Socially and economically progressive. If you have a hard time with the sense of capitulation it may represent to you, understand that you aren't retreating from anything you believe in, you are moving closer to it in terms of labeling when you call yourself a progressive. You can make that apparent by doing what I do when confronted with the difference between 'progressive' and 'liberal'. I explain that progressive is to the left of liberal, and that progressives don't believe in forever compromising with the greed and socially regressive attitudes of the right wing. Progressivism is, to anyone who asks me, basically stronger than liberalism. It's not backing down, it's stepping up. In this context progressives, essentially, don't take shit. They like that. Try it out.

I'd like to see a wholesale move to 'progressive' by leftists. Especially for younger voters. And sooner rather than later. As always, leftists should do what they want to do and no doubt will. In fact, having a cadre of 'old-time' liberals amidst the progressive movement as a rhetorical differentiation, would probably be, tactically, a good construction, separating the new from the old, in language if not in ideology. Again, I see nothing wrong with old-time liberals choosing to maintain their traditional label. For younger voters though, and for those traditionalists who understand these arguments, there is no reason to hew to 'liberal', and on the other side, no downside to the label 'progressive'. Progressive is the perfect word to describe our thoughtful, forward-looking ideology.

Oh, and not that it should need to be said, I'm a DEMOCRAT when it comes time to pull the political lever, even though my underlying ideology is progressive. That works well too, as it puts a practical imprimatur on progressive principles that many feel are too far-reaching to include them. Democrats are, and should be seen as, the moderating force on the impulse to progressive principles.

[Zensea]

211. Nothing? in the large lexicon? oh come on

adj.
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

Well look there's that potatoes definition.
And a few others, one of which has progress in it.
And what's that word "liberalism" in there?
hmmmmm---
n.
The state or quality of being liberal.
A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
Liberalism
A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.
and there's another word in there --- liberty. Gee, I wonder if liberty and liberal might be connected somehow?

Looks like not only does it mean something in the larger lexicon, but that it has a bit of history as well.

I generally call myself a socialist or a progressive if forced into labels, but I think worrying about this labels in this way is kind of silly frankly and if someone is a liberal and wants to call themselves that I think they should go right ahead and do so.

[Tactical Progressive]

226. Which misses the point

"Liberalism" has a definition based on our ideology. It means little to nothing outside of that context. But any word we choose represents our ideology - we could be whigs, or tories, or greens, or dingleberries. And in the dictionary under "dingle" there will be a definition that goes something like "a political ideology that believes in equal rights and economic fairness, etc....". I'm obviously exaggerating the negative connotation of 'liberal' to make a point, that being, why use "dingle" to represent it?

So that argument is, by definition moot. Nobody is arguing against the principles of liberalism. The discussion is about using the word "dingle" as representative of those principles. Pointing out the inherent rightness of those principles is never going to make the case for maintaining whatever labels represent them.

"Progressive" on the other hand, both perfectly represents what we stand for, in the broader language, and is a great word in and of itself.


Oh, and in those dictionary definitions you posted we see: "An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard."

Well doesn't that just sound like progressive ideology.

[uppityperson]

207. IT IS GONE!!! good.

[bear425]

210. Took too long. Been noticing that lately. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

213. Well done.

And good riddance.

[uppityperson]

208. wrong place

sorry

[RagingInMiami]

215. Live as a punk ass

Die as a punk ass.

[flaminbats]

218. Liberty was never worth defending..

Liberty is only the abusive power and vengeful rage backstabbers expect from the government we pay taxes to. Liberty is nothing more than the freedom to vote against our government's unlimited power, and supporting a constitution that treats every citizen as innocent until proved guilty. Why should any living terrorist receive a fair trial or be proved guilty before being executed or tortured?

Liberty is the belief that religion or the worship of any unChristian cult must be illegal. Liberty is the hope that government will search our homes without warrants, handcuff citizens in the name of God, and appoint delegates to elect our President. Liberals believe that our government should borrow more money for nation-building in Iraq and making interest payments on the national debt, and spend less tax dollars on helping hurricane victims or providing healthcare for the disabled. Liberty is something all democrats must be ashamed of and obedience is something all citizens must all except. Submission and unquestioned loyalty to the government are both patriotic virtues. Otherwise treason and atheism are reasons the government can no longer use to torture or imprison people without question!! :crazy:

[Redstone]

220. Dick Gregory called himself a nigger. I call myself a liberal.

You got a problem with that?

Redstone

[haydukelives]

221. Proud to be liberal

[Stephanie]

223. We're being punk'd, friends.

It really smells in here.

[Redstone]

224. Thank you, mods. Quick work, good work.

Redstone

[GrumpyGreg]

229. What the heck?

[OnyxCollie]

231. Liberal as defined in Man the State and War

I recently did a paper for my political science class on the fourth chapter of Kenneth Waltz's Man the State and War. My right-wing republican military instructor assigned the chapter to us, and surprise! the author explains liberalism and why he feels it's a flawed concept. Actually, the underlying belief that man is generally pretty good, and that states can peacefully coexist is even by my standards unlikely to ever occur. Let's face it. Most people are out to get what's best for them and rarely consider what is best for the group. Consider the plundering of America by the Asshole in Charge and you see how pitiful it is that Joe Sixpack in BFE thinks that the POTUS gives a shit about him. I did find it interesting that taking action to "spread democracy" is listed by the author as a characteristic of "interventionist liberals", so the next time some bushbot gives you shit about being liberal, throw that back at 'em. I must admit, the * regime's decision to decision to launch a preemptive strike to eliminate a hostile government and set up a democracy by which (the state) could become closer to achieving infinite perfectibility and, as a result, coexist in harmony is, on its face, a good thing. Unfortunately, the reality is the "noble deed" is a poorly executed fraud that has cost hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives so some motherfuckers can become even more rich and powerful. Anyway, here's what I wrote:

In chapter four of Kenneth Waltz’s Man the State and War, Waltz examines the internal and external actions of a state, and how these actions may lead to the occurrence of war. The liberal ideology of domestic and international affairs, Waltz argues, is impractical and flawed. This paper will describe liberal ideologies and give reasons why they are faulty.
Liberals believe man is generally good, and in domestic affairs, can be trusted to equitably dispense the profits of labor back into production and distribution. Hard work benefits the individual and in turn, benefits society. “Free-market regulators” would provide the necessary control and government oversight would not be needed. Unfortunately, some people are greedy, and will take advantage of the system to meet their own ends. Hence the need for government control, Waltz argues.
With international relations, the liberal view is that states should provide only a minimum of duties, and that war is only necessary to correct a miscarriage of justice. They believe in a harmony between the states, and that states should seek only that which benefits all. This idyllic view loses focus when interpreting the views of individual policy makers in dictatorships who have their own personal agenda. Democracies then are the preferred form of government to achieve this goal of international harmony.
The error in this reasoning is the assumption that other states will strive to become “infinitely perfectible” and that their actions are representative of the majority of their population, not the minority. By accepting the motivations of others as “good”, one could be left open to an unforeseen attack. Including geography and past history in estimating a state’s proclivity for war is also a dangerous assumption.
Noninterventionist liberals believe that time will correct any imbalances in international affairs. Interventionist liberals feel that action against “bad” governments must take place to achieve peace. This is dangerous in that “just causes” for war are determined by the state making the declaration, and may also be used by the opposing state.
In lieu of war, liberals believe in an international body to arbitrate any conflicts, using international mores and public opinion to maintain peace. This is not unlike today’s United Nations. However, the effectiveness of such a body is called into question when it lacks any army or police to enforce its decisions.
In conclusion, the liberal’s view that man and states will coexist in harmony through the process of attaining “infinite perfectibility” is overly optimistic and utopian. Not all countries are democracies, and not all people are good. Thankfully, the neoconservatives in the current administration have instituted government regulations to curb corporate greed (Enron, big oil), ensured that state’s actions represent and benefit the majority (Dick Cheney, Halliburton), and declared that “just causes” for war do not serve any hidden agendas (oil, revenge). Otherwise, things might be really bad.

“If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.”

-George W. Bush, December 18, 2000

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0012/18/nd.01.html

[long_green]

232. liberal, here, checking in

nm

[Catherine Vincent]

234. Heck no!

I'm a proud liberal Democrat. And I won't let those evil conservatives turn it into a bad name.

[rasputin1952]

236. Locking

This subject has been shown to be flamebait.