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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:50 PM
Original message
After watching the networks report the Iraq vote today...
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 05:53 PM by iamahaingttta
... I want to say this to Bushco and the Neocons:

OK, I'll give you guys this one. It was an exciting day for Iraq. It didn't seem like the networks needed to spin this one too much. A good turnout, little violence, all sides participating.

If your grandchildren sing songs about you, it will be for the events of today. It starts now. Don't fuck it up!

Of course, the networks followed that story with the McCain/torture story and the levees in NOLA. This serves to remind us that you are still total scumbags. But finally there's one day where I'm willing to say that maybe, in Iraq at least, it may have been worth some of the cost.

You'll fuck it up though. You'll probably get caught stealing votes. You can't help yourselves, can you?
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tell that to the 2155 dead Americans
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. and many more thousands of dead Iraqis nt
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Well, I guess we're both wrong
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 07:44 PM by MadisonProgressive
he can't say anything to them cause they're dead.

Maybe he can say something to the families of the dead people.
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merwin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Story just came out about 1/3 of the ballot boxes in Fallujah not arriving
and of running out of ballots.

Just think about it... 30% of the people in Fallujah didn't get to vote. And those are most likely Sunni's who dislike us very much.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wow, it DOES sound like an American-style democracy.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. See? It won't take them long to fuck up.
They'll get caught doing something in the next few minutes.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
5.  You say it "may have been worth some of the cost"
I'm a military family. I know what it cost me and mine.

The "cost" includes treaty violations,breaking laws, torture, murder, kidnappings, disappearances,eroded civil rights, torture prisons scattered all over the world and last, but certainly not least,innocent Iraqis blown to bits

My question is, what are "some of the cost" that "may have been worth" it?



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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. That's a profound question.
And one that I feel unable to answer. All I can say is that since our country was stolen away by these bastards in 2000, today is one of the one or two days where I was willing to say "OK. Maybe something good can come of this all." I doubt it, cause they'll fuck it up. But just maybe...
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. As a wife of a retired Navy Chief
who was still in during the beginng of the fun, I can tell you... the cost has been too high, for mine and me.... way, WAAAYYY TOO HIGH.

It is easy to think it may have been worth it if you have no connection to the miltiary, but the cost to this country is only starting to tally up, and that is before we count the 100,000+ Iraqis.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. You doubt any good will come of it -
- and you say some of the cost may be worth it, but you can't name the costs that would qualify as "worth it"

What actions/losses does a person write off as acceptable in a war crime? Iraq is a war crime - from start to whatever finish...so I'm curious to know - Is the torture worth it? Are the lies worth it? Are the kidnappings worth it? Are the disappearances worth it? The dead worth it? The illegal detentions worth it? The violation of laws worth it? Civil rights kaput worth it? The gross abuse of power by an executive worth it? War-profiteering worth it?









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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I hope it did go well
But there was something funny about all the pictures they showed. It seemed quiet and deserted, not thronging with voters.

Also, while I hope they WERE dancing in the streets in Baghdad, the Pentagon has staged too many rallies of this type for me to trust that either.

Color me cynical.
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. The country was in lockdown. No wonder it was relatively non-violent
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. We're not out of the woods yet. This may actually go horrifically wrong.
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 06:05 PM by Selatius
You give credit when credit is due. Credit is not due yet.

Read this:

Scenario One: The Sunnis win big, gaining up to a quarter of the assembly. The Shiite bloc fragments. The religious Shiite parties suffer significant defections by urban, educated, and more secular Shiites, who opt instead for the party led by former Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and other, smaller parties. After the election, the Shiite bloc falls apart, as the radical faction of rebel cleric Muqtada Al Sadr goes its own way, further weakening Al Dawa and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. A two-thirds majority in parliament emerges among religious Sunnis, secular Sunnis, Allawi and the Kurdsenough to force the SCIRI-Dawa forces to come to the table and talk about a brand new constitution with a strengthened, more centralized state, a smaller role for Islamic Sharia law, and a fairer distribution of oil revenues. And finally, the parties agree to peace talks with the armed resistance, including a ceasefire and amnesty for fighters and for prisoners. Central to the deal, the new Iraqi government demands a six-month timetable for the complete withdrawal of U.S. forces in Iraq. The new government takes office in late January, and, as planned, in February the Arab League convenes Phase II of the peace process that began in Cairo in mid-November, this time in Baghdad, giving international and Arab approval to the new Iraqi concord. Together, Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish police hunt down the remnants of Al Qaeda in Iraq throughout 2006.

Scenario Two: For whatever reason, Sunni candidates fail to win a fair share of seats in the new parliament. The religious Shiite coalitionSCIRI, Al Dawa and the Sadristsnot only win big, but through ballot-stuffing, vote fraud, and help from Irans intelligence service, gain enough power to continue their grip on power. The Kurds opt to ally once again with the Shiites. The U.S. military begins to draw down its forces in Iraq, so that President Bush can win political points at home, and the Shiite militias fill the vacuum left over by the slowly dwindling U.S. force. Sunnis, marginalized politically, fail to muster enough votes to make any changed in the constitution imposed in October by the dominant Shiite-Kurd alliance; frustrated and outraged, the Sunnis support the insurgency with renewed vigor. The Kurds retreat into their northern enclave, the Shiite militia launch a brutal and bloody offensive against the Sunnis, with ethnic cleansing of southern Iraq, and Iraq slides into open civil war. Not only is the Phase II Arab League meeting never held, but the Arab world mobilizes in defense of Iraqs Sunnis, and both Iran and Turkey are drawn into the conflict.

http://www.tompaine.com/print/iraqs_tipping_point.php

What do YOU think will happen?
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pocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. hook, line, and sinker
:(
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Every time Bush farts correctly we get posts like these
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 06:08 PM by NNN0LHI
Then a couple hundred more soldiers get blown up a few thousand more Iraqis are killed and we watch another 100 billion dollars get pissed away on this dry hole.

Don
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's not voting day that concerns me
It's the aftermath. Wait and see what happens, now. They've got about 4 months to make any changes to their constitution and if they don't do anything to deal with the divisions starting to crack through the surface it won't be a pretty outcome in the long-term.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. our soldiers are still in place with Bush's mandate to fight terrorists
to "total victory" and crush the insurgency. He'll continue this after pulling out overdue units, leaving a skeleton force to do the job the larger force couldn't manage. 30,000 Iraqi dead is no endorsement for the effectiveness or efficacy of continuing the occupation to 'protect' Iraqis. But, he will, to keep a grip on the oil, for a base of operations for more military meddling, to intimidate the neighbors . . . and most Iraqis went to the polls today with the expectation that that action would hasten our exit. That won't happen without a lot more pressure from us. This is no time to go wobbly. The fox is still in the henhouse, and the chickens have come home to roost . . . or something like that.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
14. really, it is already screwed up
like it or not what they have created is a Shiite theocracy that WILL BE ALIGNED with IRAN

This election may appear good, but it has nothing to do with the differences between the Sunnis and the Shiite

Incidently, no one EVER discuss the issues between the Kurds and the Turks

We haven't seen anything yet

I have the upmost confidence we will be there for years THANKS TO BOTH PARTIES

and many more Americans and Iraqiis will be dead before this is over

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. See my post 8.
Robert Dreyfuss thinks this may actually come to pass.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yes I saw it, and I think both are a possibility
but personally I think a civil war is inevitable with the Shiites coming out victorious

Iran could NOT have wished for anything better


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seeminer21 Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Jeeze
I hope you're wrong
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. so do I, but history says otherwise
Anytime you are dealing with religious conflicts you have problems, and what we have created is a new fundamentalist state in the middle east.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A straw poll conducted after voting closed in Iraq's election on Thursday showed the dominant Shi'ite Islamist bloc retained a strong following, but was being challenged by former Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's secular list.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051215/wl_nm/iraq_election...

If the Shiites win a majority I would be pleasantly surprised if the Sunnis accepted it

There was a reason why scrowcroft and most of bush ones advisors told him NOT to go into Iraq? The balance of power has been disrupted in the middle east.

What do you think Iran is going to do?

Remember the 8 year war between Iran and Iraq in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed, while we played both sides against each other? They remember





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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. I hope that the Iraqis can pull it off
I echo your "it starts now. Don't fuck it up!" We are in it now. We can't turn back the clock. I think this is the last chance for everyone involved (Iraqis and Americans) to get it right. I'm doubtful but I have my fingers crossed.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Yes, thank you.
That's all I'm trying to say.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
23. "worth some of the cost"? wtf? using white phophorous on children,
to burn them from the inside out...worth the cost?

thousands of detainees tortured.....worth the cost?

2,400 american soldiers dead, 15,000 wounded, maimed or crippled...worth the cost?

bringing the entire world on the brink of world war...worth the cost?

the evaporation of the support of our previous allies....worth the cost?

one half trilliion dollars.....worth the cost?

how in the hell is it worth the cost, when on the eve of "shock and awe", Saddam offered to be in exile.
IF shrub had taken him up on it, and NOT invaded, elections could have been held immediately without any bloodshed at all.
Iraq was ALREADY a democracy. A twisted one, but still a democracy.

maybe do a little research.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
24. I don't really see what's so important about this election.
So now a few hundred people get a new title and a new job. That's not democracy, only the first teensy baby step towards it. What are these new people going to do? Will the three feuding groups in Iraq suddenly be able to work together, committed to a united country, just because these particular people have been given new government titles?

It seems as if unelected religious leaders have more influence in Iraqi society than a secular government will have. Kind of like if we all took Pat Robertson seriously, I guess.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. Today I give thanks I'm not
gullible. Just think of today's election like the last one and look for the next ground hog day with the same talking heads showing fingers. It's an exercise in futility. Dig up the archives and check the optimistic posts from the gullible after the last election.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. so true
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Canadian Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. Iraqi citizens were voting here, as well.
In Calgary. There are 2 polling places (IIRC) in Canada - Calgary and Toronto. I went by the one here on my way to work this a.m. (and p.m.). Two police vehicles, a big sign in Arabic (?), but there didn't seem to be any trouble brewing. Well, after all, it IS Calgary... nothing ever happens here. <heee>.
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Canadian Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Two days later
in Calgary, the Iraqi citizens that live in the western part of Canada have voted. BREAKING NEWS... nothing happened. Again. However, I give major props to those that did vote. Hopefully, without further U.S. intervention, the Iraqi people can establish their version of democracy.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-17-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
31. i'll give them nothing, this is all the iraqi people
they kept things quiet for a few days so the elections would go relatively smoothly, to get us the fuck out of there! they're trying to tell us they KNOW how democracy works, give them a chance to actually DO it. but no, we'll continue to occupy their country, and continue to blow up innocent people in the name of some bogus war on terra, thus pissing them off and fueling more hate for America.
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