It's just hard to to have empathy for Tookie.

[Saboburns]

Quite a bunch of people, me included, are against the death penalty because we think that a human life is such a blessing. And we feel like innocent people get caught up by the DP. And it is devastating to us.

But anybody who has researched the evidence, makes it impossible to think that Mr. Tookie Williams is innocent of his crimes.

I am convinced that he murdered four people, in the most inhumane way possible.

Mr. Williams has never admitted his guilt, nor has he taken responsibility for his actions.

Never.

His last appeal was based upon his claim that he was INNOCENT of these crimes.

With that, I have a problem.

I certainly feel what most abolishers feel. I, too, think that the DP is an indecent way for this nation to conduct business.

I don't see it as a discriminatory thing. In that, I don't believe the DP is a racial problem, it's a socio-economic one.

Personally, I think his actions since being incarcerated should have ZERO influence on his outcome.

Yes, he has done some wonderful things these past few years, and he should be commended for doing them.

But it has squat to do with his crimes.

Never forget that he has murdered. In the coldest sense possible, and has shown no remorse for doing so.

Work like the devil to get the DP abolished.

I just don't think Mr. Williams is the way to go about it.

As an aside, the people who cheer for his death are an abomination to me.

IMHO, there are NO WINNERS in this case.

But until the law is changed, Mr. Williams must be executed.

Notice I did not say murdered.

[xultar]

1. ..Salt and Butter...

:popcorn:

[Broken_Hero]

2. hey share some...:)

I think some people might be a little tired for this thread, people on both sides have been busy for a while...:)

[liberalnurse]

3. I respect your assessment.

You have taken time to look at both sides of the issue in effort to form your opinion. I happen to agree with your assessment items. I am an advocate for the victims every step of the way. Such horrendous crimes need a clear boundary line. They have warning and knowledge of the law regarding the potential consequence.....much more than they gave their innocent victims.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. An eye for an eye

is not how the majority of civilized societies deal with crime and punishment.

[tuvor]

5. The OP addressed that.

"Work like the devil to get the DP abolished."

[eablair3]

6. okay, i'll bite. .... what's the "evidence"

<<<<<But anybody who has researched the evidence, makes it impossible to think that Mr. Tookie Williams is innocent of his crimes.

I am convinced that he murdered four people, in the most inhumane way possible.>>>>>

I have read up on the evidence.

since you've researched it so thoroughly, what do you think the evidence is against him? What's the worst of it?

[Saboburns]

9. Hey.

If you think he's innocent.

Enlighten me.

I have an open mind.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eablair3]

11. you said you researched it

you said you researched it, and I asked you to list some of the evidence or even just the worst "evidence".

It's funny how anyone you ask who has made up their mind doesn't know about the evidence.

You made the statement. So, I was asking you on what "evidence" you based your comments in your original post in this thread.

[eablair3]

28. Saboburn, ... I guess you can't list any of the evidence?

[FreedomAngel82]

47. So what's your evidence he's guilty?

Prove it.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. You don't want to go there, trust me. I lived in Calif. during the '92

L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict. My 17 y.o. son was in the CA Nat'l Guard and he was patrolling the streets. It wasn't a good thing.

[InaneAnanity]

18. It's a necessary evil..

when the government stomps all over the little guy.

[mondo joe]

34. It's necessary to stomp on the little guy because goverment does it?

That's so wrong.

Government isn't hurt by riots. The little guy is.

[QC]

37. It's easy for armchair radicals to speak cavalierly about violence.

They know they are safe from it.

[InaneAnanity]

42. Well..

The way things are going in this country, riots are probably the only way to change things.

[ariesgem]

38. There won't be any riots...

I live in L.A. My friends, family and associates live here. Noboby is talking about burning their hood down in the name of Tookie Williams. That is NOT the mood on the streets.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. How do you know?

How do you know it's just in your atmosphore?

[Zomby Woof]

8. "executed" is just a euphemism

For state-sponsored murder and raw vengeance.

Empathy for Williams is not the point. In fact, that misses it altogether. The REAL point is: Do we mete justice out with our humanity intact, in the face of those like him who fell short of their humanity with their grievous acts? Must we become like him to punish him?

You debase and dehumanize yourself by rationalizing his murder by deeming it an "execution". Real tidy, and it deceives you into thinking you have absolved yourself of bloodlust.

[Saboburns]

14. Well

How about this.

I don't think spending his life in prison is equal punishment to his crime.

Maybe it is just vengeance at the end of the day.

I could care less about the monetary expense of execution VS. life imprisonment.

Money is of no consequence here. At least to me.

And research does indeed show that the DP does NOT deter crimes of this nature.

I admit it.

Doesn't change the fact, that to me, still, I have no empathy for Mr. Williams.

[InaneAnanity]

16. There is no Justice.

In any case. No punishment is ever equal to a crime. And it shouldn't be.

Life in prison is as big a deterrent as there can be. No criminals say, "Well, I would do this if I could only get life in prison, but because I can get death I won't do it."

Prison should be about rehabilitation. These aren't evil men. There is no such thing as evil men. They are men rejected by society, and they deserve help.

This guy helped himself, but this isn't recognized by politicians because to do that would be bad politics. Our country is full of people hungry for death. We are a screwed up society.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. So what if in the future it's shown he's innocent?

How will that make you feel?

[Bluerthanblue]

40. beautifully said- and so true. n/t

[fishwax]

12. one can work to change the law and work to prevent his execution

i fail to see any contradiction there. unless the law has changed, such appeals as these are allowed and expected. and if one opposes the death penalty, one might as well work to prevent it, on a micro as well as a macro level.

[caligirl]

13. old testament eye for an eye. When rehabilitation of those

who commit crimes becomes the priority again our country will be better off. Being against the DP is about US in OUR society and the standards we live by. It has nothing to do with the crimes of those incarcerated. To say in one breath your against the DP, but not in this case?

I was a DP believer while under the influence of controlling Repug parents. After many conversations with my son who is a college senior majoring in philosophy, I have changed my mind. I am anti DP because it is not right, not because it isn't right this time or that time or next time.

[tyedyeto]

21. An eye for an eye just makes everyone blind...

sooner or later. I am also against the death penalty. It makes no difference if it is in this case (Tookie) or those who were executed last week without much fanfare (there were 2). It is a barbaric ritual and our society hasn't seen that the death penalty doesn't deter any person from committing crimes.

I'd like to see any one person say "I was going to kill someone but didn't because I might get the death penalty if I do." I've never seen any statistic that shows it is a deterrent to crimes.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

17. "But until the ovens are cooled, the innocent must be baked"

Not flaming at you, really. I understand your reliance on process.

But the fact of the matter is, every execution, every last one, is an assurance that another innocent will die.

Whose innocent will it be?

[Saboburns]

19. But

I don't think that an innocent person is being executed.

Do you??

[InaneAnanity]

20. Innocent people have been executed

..and so long as the DP is law, more will be in the future.

[Saboburns]

22. OK

Punishment should never be equal to a crime??

I have a bit of a problem with that statement.

Why not??

[InaneAnanity]

23. Because its not possible

eom

[GrpCaptMandrake]

26. How will you define the equivalency?

Or, for that matter, who? Here's an equivalent: guy kills a girl. As an equivalent, the victim's family is allowed to kill the daughter of the killer. All nice and equivalent, right? That's about as equal as it gets?

Most of this is mental masturbation and rationalized justification.

The point is that as long as you're willing to off the "undeniably guilty" you're equally willing, by extension and by virtue of human fallibility, to off the innocent.

You OK with that?

[tyedyeto]

25. It doesn't matter if he is innocent or guilty

It is state sponsored murder! How can you justify taking another's life?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

45. There are some, and they're not all freepers

who rather enjoy the spectacle of death; who would rather it be done on live Teevee, in some sort of frenzy out of Kurt Vonnegut's worst nightmare.

They've been introducing themselves on DU lately.

[TahitiNut]

24. 122 proven innocent after sentenced to death - BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT

The self-righteous arrogance on DU is astonishing - akin to FReeperville and sites-which-shall-not-be-named.

David Keaton
Samuel A. Poole
Wilbert Lee
Freddie Pitts
James Creamer
Christopher Spicer
Thomas Gladish
Richard Greer
Ronald Keine
Clarence Smith
Delbert Tibbs
Earl Charles
Jonathan Treadway
Gary Beeman
Jerry Banks
Larry Hicks
Charles Ray Giddens
Michael Linder
Johnny Ross
Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham
Annibal Jaramillo
Lawyer Johnson
Larry Fisher
Anthony Brown
Neil Ferber
Clifford Henry Bowen
Joseph Green Brown
Perry Cobb
Darby (Williams) Tillis
Vernon McManus
Anthony Ray Peek
Juan Ramos
Robert Wallace
Richard Neal Jones
Willie Brown
Larry Troy
Randall Dale Adams
Robert Cox
Timothy Hennis
James Richardson
Clarence Brandley
John C. Skelton
Dale Johnston
Jimmy Lee Mathers
Gary Nelson
Bradley P. Scott
Charles Smith
Jay C. Smith
Kirk Bloodsworth
Federico M. Macias
Walter McMillian
Gregory R. Wilhoit
James Robison
Muneer Deeb
Andrew Golden
Joseph Burrows
Adolph Munson
Robert Charles Cruz
Rolando Cruz
Alejandro Hernandez
Sabrina Butler
Verneal Jimerson
Dennis Williams
Roberto Miranda
Gary Gauger
Troy Lee Jones
Carl Lawson
David Wayne Grannis
Ricardo Aldape Guerra
Benjamin Harris
Robert Hayes
Christopher McCrimmon
Randall Padgett
James Bo Cochran
Robert Lee Miller, Jr.
Curtis Kyles
Shareef Cousin
Anthony Porter
Steven Smith
Ronald Williamson
Ronald Jones
Clarence Dexter, Jr.
Warren Douglas Manning
Alfred Rivera
Steve Manning
Eric Clemmons
Joseph Nahume Green
Earl Washington
William Nieves
Frank Lee Smith
Michael Graham
Albert Burrell
Oscar Lee Morris
Peter Limone
Gary Drinkard
Joaquin Jose Martinez
Jeremy Sheets
Charles Fain
Juan Roberto Melendez
Ray Krone
Thomas Kimbell, Jr.
Larry Osborne
Aaron Patterson
Madison Hobley
Leroy Orange
Stanley Howard
Rudolph Holton
Lemuel Prion
Wesley Quick
John Thompson
Timothy Howard
Gary Lamar James
Joseph Amrine
Nicholas Yarris
Alan Gell
Gordon Steidl
Laurence Adams
Dan L. Bright
Ryan Matthews
Ernest Ray Willis
Derrick Jamison
Harold Wilson

[eablair3]

27. and I'd venture to say that Saboburn researched all of these, too

and I have little doubt that people like Saboburn said they "researched" all the evidence in those cases and there were "no doubts" regarding their guilt.

[Saboburns]

29. Again

I firmly believe that there are numerous people who have been executed and are scheduled to be executed who are INNOCENT.

That does not, however, have anything to do with THIS PARTICULAR CASE.

I don't think MR. Williams is innocent. And I don't think that's the crux of this debate.

[InaneAnanity]

30. You're right, its not

We live in a country that legislates death, and has murdered innocent people.

That's the issue.

[Saboburns]

31. How about this:

I don't think that this is murder.

I don't think abortion is murder.

I think murder is murder.

[InaneAnanity]

35. Oh, great

you think murder is murder. Congratulations on your brilliant discovery.

How is a pre-meditated state-sponsored killing not state sponsored murder??

[Saboburns]

32. How about this:

I don't think that this is murder.

I don't think abortion is murder.

I think murder is murder.

[Saboburns]

33. How about this:

I don't think that this is murder.

I don't think abortion is murder.

I think murder is murder.

[BigBearJohn]

36. Everyone talks about executing an innocent life... well, what about

the innocent lives of those taken by murderers?

Savage murderers are a CANCER on society's body.
So, what are we supposed to do? Keep pumping our
life blood into the lives of these human cancers
for 20 or 30 year?

Doing everything noble, offering these murderers
all the compassion and mercy they never even
considered showing the people they killed...

For what? To show what noble,
self-less creatures we are? While the poor
families of these victims have to suffer every
remaining day of their lives without their dear
loved ones... knowing that the lives of the monsters
who robbed the lives of their dear ones are being
kept fat and well in some prison cell with a remote
possibility of parole down the road?

What about the poor lives of the innocents that have
had their life's journey cut short, with no
remorese, no regret, often with no feeling by the
perpetrator or the crime?

Howewver, I, for one, would much rather funnel those
resources and compassion into helping people who
really NEED our help and DESERVE our help in our
society.

I'd rather excise the cancer. Go ahead... accuse me
of bloodlust or vengeance... I really don't care.
If some hideous murderer snuffed the life of my little
8 year old girl, I would want his nuts cut off and
served to the dogs. I'll save my compassion for those
who at least "try" to make this a better life.

This is not a perfect society, but it is at least a
"workable" society. We will make errors. But how
many other governments let their death row inmates
appeal their convictions for 20-25 years? I agree
that idea of executing our murderers is ugly. Maybe
we could vote to make the laws stricter on what
qualifies for the death penalty... but if some little
girls is raped and then choked to death, THAT killer
does NOT deserve to spend another day on this earth.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. Can i ask you

to really look at what you posted.... and think hard about it-

You claim the fact that he didn't 'show remorse' or 'admit to killing' as being a huge problem for you- that, that reality makes a 'difference' to you-

Yet, you claim that the 'good' he's done SINCE he was imprisoned, doesn't matter, because it's after the fact.

Now, would you rather have the man stand and cry crockidle tears as * does- spouting words that he believes will 'sucker' people in,- all the while living a life of deceit

OR

would you rather have a man not speak out "oh, I'm so sorry, I'v been 'redeemed' " but DO work- attempt to influence those who might head down the path he took, NOT to follow him- even if he isn't saying the 'words' that 'you' want to hear out of his mouth???

If it wouldn't make any difference- why does it bother you that he hasn't 'danced to your music'- but that he has taught others not to sing in the choir he sang in????

And whether you call it execution or murder- the actions are one and the same. Pre-meditated, calculated murder is what the death penalty is.

Why is killing a child, or a policeman, or an old person any less heinous than killing anyone? Do we value their lives more????? You'd be hard pressed to prove that by the way we treat them while they live among us.

may we all be shown mercy for what we have allowed. may we be able to forgive ourselves.

[Bluebear]

41. So if he "admitted his guilt & took responsibility" you would spare him?

And what research have you unearthed that convinces you of his guilt, if you don't mind. I am enormously interested.

[shanti]

43. NO

even though what you say about tookie is true and heartbreaking, i cannot condone the DP. we are not god.

[shance]

44. "Evidence could not be traced to Stanley Williams"

Before you spout authoritatively how Mr. Williams is a murderer, why don't you try considering the evidence, or lack thereof?

It has never been an open and shut case that Mr. Williams is guilty.

However, what is apparent is there are people that want him to die.

The fact he has never admitted to these murders to me speaks volumes.

It is in no way certain, in fact it seems most uncertain that Mr. Williams is guilty of the crimes for which he has been accused.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2313.shtml

[architect359]

46. Everybody's innocent in jail. n/t