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Oh, shit. I was afraid of this. "Took die, the city fry."

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MnFats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:14 PM
Original message
Oh, shit. I was afraid of this. "Took die, the city fry."
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 12:21 PM by MnFats
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2005/11/23/america-turns-b...

Rage redux: The LA Weekly reports that the word is out in the gang-osphere that if Crips founder Tookie Williams is executed on Dec. 13, angry mobs are set to riot once again in Los Angeles:

"Took die, the city fry" said Raymond The Hatchet Man Locket, a member of the West Side Harlem Crips, who says he knew Tookie back in the day. ???That??s the word on the streets.
Having lived through the riots in Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict in 1992 and then the Northridge earthquake in 1994 (not to mention the Landers quakes and hundreds of fore- and after-shocks), I personally would take a 6.9 quake over citywide riot any day of the week.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not in NYC
Won't happen. I don't know about LA.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Harlem Crips are an LA gang
confusing, but true
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Yup, anyone not familiar with LA gangs would see the names of all
the different sets and be so thoroughly confused they'd throw up their hands and walk away. It's a very confusing list. Especially when you get into the weird f'ed up alliances that formed over the years based on just vague names like all the "Hoover" sets, etc. (which eventually started fighting each other, etc.).
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Oh I see
That makes more sense.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. If Tookie is reformed, then he needs to make a statement
about this.
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. He won't . Tookie is all about Tookie.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. I tend to agree
I think he's full of shit.

But I'm 100% opposed to the death penalty.

If for no other reason than to help himself, he should make a statement discouraging any violence. Maybe it would help to curb some of it should the worst happen.

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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. He won't
Because that's the kind of guy Tookie REALLY is.

I can't believe all the "Tookie Worship" in these forums. As much as I hate to wear the tinfoil hat, it actually makes me wonder whether we have more than a few "agent provocateurs" here at DU.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. What a load of horsehit. The "provacateurs" are a hell of a lot more
likely to be the people with under 50 posts who are screaming for his blood.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. There have been hundreds, maybe thousands, of people...
on death row that shouldn't have been there, that are in many cases obviously innocent as the day they were born. And many of them have been killed for no reason whatsoever.

And yet now, NOW we're supposed to come together for a guy like Tookie Williams.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't pass the smell test in the slightest way.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Once again, the people most likely to be "provacateurs" are the
low post count pro-death penalty vociferous minority on DU, not the long time poster anti-death penalty folks.

You're the one hurling baseless accusations at long time posters here, not I.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Don't get me wrong; I'm very anti-death-penalty
I just can't for the life of me understand why a dirtbag like Tookie has been chosen suddenly and arbitrarily to be our standard-bearer for the A-DP cause. Why not a slew of other people who are (and were) CLEARLY more innocent of the charges brought against them, or who--if they did commit they crimes they were accused of--showed MUCH more remorse for those crimes?

I just can't get around the idea that Tookie is being hung around our necks as some sort of rotten, stinking albatross. The Republican war machine NEEDS someone like that right now.

And when it comes to who's an "agent provocateur" or not, I frankly don't care about post counts. I've been here long enough to see people well into the thousands of posts say things you just wouldn't believe.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Yes, but folks that suddenly appear
and post huge numbers of posts on a single topic that is directly contrary to the majority tends to draw more questioning from me than a long time poster making a stance against a death penalty case.

As to Williams, nobody chose it suddenly and arbitrarily. Until October, it was still in an appeals process. Once that was completed, an execution date was set, then the widespread activity to move for clemency began. There was nothing sudden or arbitrary about it. The only time it becomes a "rotten, stinking albatross" is when someone is too close-minded to see that despite his past, the man has done great good in the past decade+.

To label folks that are anti-death penalty as "provacateurs" is a bit of an unnecessary attack.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. "I'm very anti-death-penalty" -- except for the people on death row! LOL!
Guess what -- there aren't too many angels on death row.

PROBABLE INNOCENCE CANNOT BE THE STANDARD FOR CLEMENCY! If there was much likelihood of proving that any person facing immanent execution was 100% innocent, the argument would be in favor of releasing him -- not in favor of clemency in the form of life imprisonment without hope of parole. IF YOU EXPECT PROOF OF INNOCENCE AS YOUR STANDARD OF CLEMENCY THEN YOU ARE NOT ANTI-DEATH PENALTY (sorry if I'm the one who has to break that sad news, but please don't kill the messenger-- I CAN prove my innocence).

I am in agreement with you on one point, when you say, "I've been here long enough to see people well into the thousands of posts say things you just wouldn't believe."

Amen to that!
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. There is no "very" anti- death penalty.
Either you're for it or against it. It's like being pregnant.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Exactly
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #71
84. Whatever. I hope Tookie doesn't die.
On the other hand, I won't lose sleep if he does. Happy now?
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #71
87. The sad thing is, there have been a lot of people...
who haven't killed anyone, shouldn't even be NEAR death row, and yet there they are and have been for many decades, many of them long dead and buried. And in all that time, I never heard your sanctimonious pleadings expressed on a first-name basis on their behalf...prior to Tookie Freaking Williams.

Save your enormous self-righteous energy for someone who actually deserves it. There are plenty more out there.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. John Alba, Franklin Alix, Allen Bridgers, Carl Brooks, Eugene Broxton,
Carl Buntion, Calvin Burdine, Anibal Canales, Rogelio Reyes Cannady, Edward Capetillo, David Carpenter, Karl Chamberlain, Troy Clark, Christopher Coleman, Johnny Ray Conner, Brian Davis, Irving Davis, Larry Donell Davis, Leon Dorsey, Martin Draughon, Charles Flores, Tony Egbuna Ford, Kenneth Foster, Robert Fratta, Derrick Frazier, Gabriel Gonzalez, Michael Gonzales, Anthony Graves, Dominique Green, Edward Green III, Randolph Greer, Cathy Henderson, Preston Hughes III, Derrick Leon Jackson, Jimmy Jackson, Lonnie Johnson, Alvin Kelly, John William King, Rickey Lynn Lewis, Michael Anthony Lopez Jr., Jose Martinez, Miguel Angel Martinez, Farley Matchett, Frederick McWilliams, Jose E. Medellin, Tony Medina, Eric Lynn Moore, Kenneth Morris, Charles Nealy, Abel Ochoa, Kenny Parr, John Paul Penry, Efrain Perez, Anthony Pierce, Roy Lee Pippin, Charles Raby, Oswaldo Soriano Regaldo, Damon Richardson, Darlie Routier, Dale Scheannette, Willie Shannon, Hank Skinner, Paul Slater, LaRoyce L. Smith, Max Soffar, Pedro Sosa, Gregory Summers, Edgar Tamayo, Tim Titsworth, Michael Toney, Son Tran , Willie Trottie, Billy J. Wardlow, Kevin Watts, Coy Wayne Wesbrook, Daryl Wheatfall, Garcia White, Bruce Williams, Nanon Williams, Jackie Barron Wilson (and that JUST Texas).

I never started any thread about Williams's death oenalty sentence; I never started a thread about anyone's death penalty sentence. But if you or someone else wants to start a thread about any of these death row inmates, I'd be equally opposed to their executions. My opposition to the death penalty is as much an objection on behalf of the citiznes who do not want people executed in their names as it is on behalf of people sentenced to die.
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. I would be smart for him to do so.
It would give Arnold a reason to grant Clemency withoug being accues of pandering or submitting to blackmail.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Good idea. I doubt this will happen, though. n/t
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. Hey YOU FREEPER SCUM!!!
Stop posting your opinions! :sarcasm:


:hi:
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
88. LOL! Before I saw who posted that...
I was thinking WTF! :)
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. I don't know. Could work in reverse. It's a no-win situation.
Williams making any statement against rioting could just give more people the idea to riot. It might even make Williams seem more noble, and thus people will be angrier if he's executed. If he stays silent on the issue, some will take that as encouragement.

And the rioting would have nothing to do with what he says. If there is rioting, it will be a sign of societal unrest just looking for a spark. I don't know if we are there yet, but if we are, it won't be Williams's fault. Rioting happens when the conditions are right, not because of the initial spark that sets it off. Williams could beg for it or against it, but whether it happens or not will depend on the would-be rioters, not on him.

For the record, I know so little about this guy I don't realy have an opinion on him. That's just my observation on society, not on Williams.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. He wouldn't be listened to.
Any people out there would start a riot are just looking for an excuse to do so, nothing he said would make a difference any more than Rodney King asking "can't we all just get along?" made any difference.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. And the only people who this would hurt...
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 12:21 PM by booley
..are the very poor people Tookie williams was trying to help.

And the rich white republicans will just go "See, you can't reason with these people. These people are too violent and probe to crime. We need stricter , harsher laws to deal with these people ." and then they will go back to thier comfy gated communities, feelign all self rightous,

But I guess reason is a lost cause when you got people talking riots.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I wonder how much of this is real...
...and how much of it is slow-news-day-need-headline.
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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Exactly! Rioting would just prove the Repukes point---in fact I'll
bet they hope there is rioting.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. yep, they can riot all they want..... it won't matter. tookie will be gone
and their will a couple more to take his place. Me personally, I don't think most of the kids out there give too much of a shit. they are too self involved to care about tookie.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
86. Tookie's not going to do anything to quell the rioting...
because TOOKIE DOESN'T GIVE A FLYING F---!!! Are people on this board so deluded to think that he does? Jesus H. C. !!!!!
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh, great.
Just fucking great.
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Just a bunch of criminals looking for any reason to go out on a nice
looting spree. Sickening. If they truly believe any of what Tookie is saying since being jailed, then they wouldn't even pretend to do something like this in his name.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
77. Shoot to kill .....
.... If you're going to take the death of a homicidal Gang-banger as an incentive to riot, we're not going to be able to conduct a civlized society with you in it.

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DRoseDARs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, b/c violent rioting is well-within the spirit of Took's reformation.
Any excuse to bust windows and steal shit... :rolleyes:
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. So what kind of role model is this guy?
That some of his supporters would threaten violence if things don't go their way?
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. LOL . . . I love how you try and pin this on him as well.
These aren't his "supporters" these are people who are looking for an excuse to bust shit up. These aren't his supporters any more than the people that started the '92 riots were King's supporters.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Pin this on him as well? What was the first thing I pinned on him?
I actually agree that these aren't his "true" supporters, but just criminals looking for any excuse to break shit.

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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Then why the snarky heading for your post? n/t
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Because apparently these idiots missed the point of why he should not
be put to death...
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. I can kind of see that, but your post reads differently than your intent
apparently.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. I see, stamp out violence with more violence, irony...
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. I was there too. Any chance they'll take the riot into the neighborhoods
that might actually make a difference, or will they just burn their own and kill their own again?
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. violence is not the answer. i would think that people would have
learned this from past experience with riots.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. killing is not the answer either...
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. i totally agree. i'm am against the death penalty but if tookie
does not get a reprieve, violence is not going to change it. it won't bring him back.
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. I honestly think some people here will be disappointed
if the man doesn't die. Pretty sick.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. It'll never happen.

Most black folks don't like Tookie or gangs or murderers any more than most white folks. Jeezus, people - that's a pretty racist suggestion.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. I don't think anyone is suggesting
That ordinary people, of any race, are going to riot in response to Tookie being executed. It's his *gang* who are threatening to do so. Probably as an excuse to further terrorize those very people.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
67. I stand corrected. nt
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. I wonder where the National Guard will come from to handle this.
I'm sure Bush is just waiting for a chance to use his private contractors here stateside.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Well, in '92, they used the 40th ID National Guard troops for a good
chunk of the riot control (I should know, I was part of it). Last I heard, a good chunk of the 40th ID was in NOLA.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. except for the fact that the police state may make a show of it in
just like it has in new orleans after katrina, and in florida after wilman and during the miami airport shooting of an emotionally unstable man.

this time around the bush jackbooted thugs and the cheney mercenaries will be out enforce to prevent riots--and california may find itself in a civil war.

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wouldn't that be ironic.
The main argument is that his message is one of non-violence. Fine, maybe that's true today but it still shouldn't change the sentence being carried out.

But these people who are threatening violence are obviously ignoring the message of the man they claim to be supporting. Oh well.

Just increase law enforcement presence and hopefully that will prevent violence and rioting.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. This is what happens sometimes
Tookie, through his writing and turn to legitimacy, provided the gangs a new-found power outside the confines of violence. Many left the gangs and formed new organizations which helped to raise children out of poverty and onto the road for a better life.

Now, flip that around. If change to non-violence undergone by Tookie does not translate into a reduced sentence and the state resorts to violence, why should those still in the inner city circumstances believe any change will bring about a different result.

Powerlessness and hopelessness prevail when people cannot see light at the end of their tunnels.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Or they could choose to do what
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 12:51 PM by hiaasenrocks
the other 98% of us do in this country and not engage in a life of crime. I mean, they do have a choice, don't they? The crime rate is around 2%, I think. That's people of all races. The vast majority of the black, white, Asian, Hispanic communities don't engage in crime. This isn't just about "inner city people." The overwhelming majority of people in the inner city don't engage in crime.

To say that these people (the ones doing the threatening and being part of gangs) might give up hope if the system won't let them redeem themselves is to shift the responsibility from the criminal to the system.
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CornField Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Isn't a system which resorts to violence also criminal?
From birth, we are all taught that violence is not the answer. We are told to turn the other cheek when someone attacks us... we are told to walk away, to tell a teacher, to be the bigger person. Shouldn't our system of justice be held to that same moral standard?

Furthermore, there is plenty of blame to go around. Not only do I find fault within the justice system, but in the educational system, the anti-poverty system, the family-friendly system, the retirement system, the corporate system and more. As a tax-paying American I reserve the right to 'diss' any American institution I choose. Even as I sit her locked in neo-conservative hell, I can see light at the end of the tunnel -- brought to me by education, determination and societal experience. I know I have a voice and I know that voice will make a difference. Gang members -- criminal or not -- will have lost a voice if Tookie is put to death. They will have one more affirmation of violence begetting violence, but this time it will be with the twist "no matter what you do."
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
90. No.
Our system shouldn't turn the other cheek. What kind of a society would we be without a justice system in place to protect the innocent?

As for your last paragraph, again, I just can't side with those who seem to shift the responsibility from the criminal to the system. Are the systems you mentioned perfect? No. But anyone who commits violence against innocent people does so by making a choice to do that. (Excluding the mentally ill, in some cases.)
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
45. "Just increase law enforcement presence and hopefully that will
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:06 PM by High Plains
prevent violence and rioting."

On the other hand, it just might provoke it. Remember Paris last month?


Edit: to add the word "might"
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Just look how well increased police presence at the intersection of
Florence and Normandy worked back in 1992 . . . .

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
89. I'm sure that's what would be said
by people eager to excuse the rioting, should it happen.

It's always the system's fault, somehow.

I'm not saying you are among that group. I hope you're not. I'm just answering your hypothetical.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. Rioting is a form of revolution.
That's some of what happened in New Orleans, too. And in Paris. And in Iraq. People who feel that the government and the justice system always work against them often lose all respect for the justice system. In times like these, when the government is so out-of-touch with the people, when unemployment is up and wages are down and the government is telling people who are suffering that it's all in their heads, or that it's all their fault, people lose hope. All they have is rage, and so they try to make people listen to their rage.

I don't know if it will happen this time, over this. It could just be people talking. Can you imagine widespread rioting, though? After New Orleans, and Paris? This nation is so divided now. It could divide us further, or it could make everyone realize how badly Bush has failed, and unite against him. It could do a little of both, as people react aggressively against riots but still realize how badly Bush has failed. Who knows? Let's just hope we don't have to find out.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. whatever, fine..... Geez.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
37. LA - especially Compton/southside-has been a tinderbox for a few years now
And I don't think it'll take much to set off a wave of riots; Williams' execution is little more than an excuse to get things rolling.

It's been apparent for 3-4 years now that the gang problem in LA has once again reached a crisis level, and nobody's been able to (or tried very hard to) come up with a cure. If things don't explode over the execution, it won't take long for something else to set things off.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. All the more reason to execute Williams
Being held at gunpoint by thugs means the thugs will have taken over.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Dude, that's a non sequitur
You want to execute the guy because people will riot if we execute the guy?

You want to execute the guy because if we don't, it will mean we have caved in to fear of riots?

Or you just want to execute the guy?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. It'll mean we caved into threats of violence
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:08 PM by Walt Starr
but the real reason to execute Williams is because he's an unrepentant mass murderer.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. "we"...who in the hell is "we?"
anthrax, anyone? that threat certainly seemed to be effective...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. The collective "We"
Society.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
56. that makes zero sense
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:19 PM by noiretblu
the whole point of this exercise is supposedly to punish him for crimes he actually committed (per the decision of a jury), not crimes that someone else MIGHT commit, per the statement of one person in the LA Weekly.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. You've got it backwards
The premise for granting clemency is that Williams stops gang violence and yet gangs threaten violence if clemency is not granted.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
54. There won't be any riot
There may be some lawless acts by the gangs, but nobody in LA who's not actually in a gang supports what they do. Average people will not riot to protest Tookie's death, because they hate the gangs.

This will only give the LAPD a good excuse to shoot a whole bunch of gang members down without any worry about backlash.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. How many people are in his gang?
I'm not from LA so I don't know. I do know that a group of people intent on creating havoc can do a lot of damage. Especially if they are already used to doing that kind of damage and have no qualms about violence.

LA doesn't need that shit.

Then again this could all be a bluff. Hopefully, anyways.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. First, it's not "his" gang, if it ever really was, it ceased to be in the
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:30 PM by ET Awful
80's or early 90's.

Second, people that know noting of LA Gangs will simply say "his" gang is the Crips and leave it at that. They won't mention that, in fact, there are over 100 separate and distinct gangs that are labeled as "Crips". Just as there are over 100 that are labeled as "Bloods" and nearly the same number of hispanic, asian and white gangs.

A fairly decent list of all "Crip" gangs can be found here: http://www.streetgangs.com/crips /

BUT, it should be noted that by no means are these all friendly to each other, nor are they a unified "Crip" gang. Many of these "sets" are at war with one another, and have been since the 70's.

Contrary to the media-driven image of Crips vs. Bloods being the main rivalry, in reality, more Crips have been killed by other Crips than have by Bloods (Bloods, in my research, seem to be more unified from set to set).

According to Wikipedia (and other sources), Los Angeles County is home to 152000 gang members organized into 1350 gangs.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. If it isn't his gang
Why do they give a shit? If it isn't his gang, anymore, why won't he give up any information about them?

I really couldn't care less about the gangs, I care if any of them are threatening to start shit if Tookie gets executed.

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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. They DON'T give a shit. That's what I'm trying to get across.
They couldn't care less about Williams. They care about having an excuse to start trouble.

Much like the same people didn't really give a flying fuck about Rodney King. It was an excuse. That's all.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I don't disagree with you
I honestly don't know what we are arguing about.

:shrug:

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
81. Exactly
What it comes down to is, even other gangs are not going to put their existence on the line to riot on behalf of Tookie. Even with 152,000 people in LA involved in gangs, only a very small number may feel they owe any allegience to him.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. Probably right ...
.... "This will only give the LAPD a good excuse to shoot a whole bunch of gang members down without any worry about backlash." Might be a good thing, too - take some predators out of those communities.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
61. I'll probably get flamed for this, but...
Where the f*** was the outrage from the Black community when thousands of *innocent* black citizens died because of the incompetence and racism of our government during Katrina??? Where were the riots then????

What they're saying here is that the life of one former gang member-murderer is worth more in terms of expending social capital, worth more in social unrest, just plain worth more than THOUSANDS of Black Katrina victims. WTF? This is totally screwed up. IMO, they need to do some serious thinking about what battles are worth fighting and what's a just cause to be burning shit down over. Seriously, it's f***ed up that they would riot over this guy and not Katrina. Totally wrong.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I've seen more outrage about Katrina than I have about Williams.
You should pay more attention to why the media choses to focus more attention on one than on the other.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Media Attention vs. Black Outrage
The meaning being here, I suppose, that the media is showing all of us poor sheeple millions of stories about Tookie Williams and going on and on about possible riots in order to demonstrate how stupid the Black community is, right?

Well, for your info, I haven't seen any media attention on Tookie Williams or riots other than what I get from DU.

On the other hand, I saw literally MONTHS of coverage on Katrina, and I saw Jesse Jackson on talking about how horrible it was, and I saw a few liberal commentators discussing the racial implications of the poor FEMA response, etc. But I never saw any pictures of riots in LA when every station in America was showing poor African-Americans dying of heat exhaustion. I never saw any pictures of riots in Detroit when the Black bodies were floating in the water. I never saw any pictures of riots in Chicago when Anderson Cooper told us all that the NOLA police wouldn't let refugees cross the bridges to civilization, or when they called the African-American kid who drove 100 people to the Superdome in a school bus he found a "looter".

It's amazing how the media managed to cover all of those really horrendous stories about Katrina, but kept stories about all the major riots in Black communities around the US A BIG FUCKING SECRET! They must really be good at that spin, because I personally live in a large US city with a large Black population, and I NEVER HEARD OF ANY FUCKING RIOTS HERE!

If you want to imply that I'm stupid, fine. But least make an effort to back up your assertions about media censorship of Katrina riots with some evidence.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. So tell me, have there been riots regarding EITHER at this point?
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 01:57 PM by ET Awful
I don't believe so. So check your attitude.

You really need to take a valium.

You're trying to take something that hasn't happened, turn it into something that has, compare it to something entirely different, and come out the other side saying you've made a valid point. It doesn't work that way.

Here's a little hint for you. . . there was a LOT of anger from the black community over Katrina. HOWEVER, unlike with situations that have historically caused riots, the target of the anger was not local.

When you look at historic riots in Detroit, LA, etc., they were spurred by actions of local authorities, etc., not by something halfway across the country.

Now had you been paying attention instead of thrashing around and screaming, you might have noticed activities nationwide regarding Katrina, you also would have noticed that locally, there WAS looting (or did you somehow miss that?).

You are taking a story regarding comments from one person in Los Angeles, and trying to somehow morph it into something comparable to the reaction to an entirely different situation in a different time and place.

Quit attacking ME and start paying attention to history.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. That's a nice argument, but...
Edited on Mon Dec-12-05 02:45 PM by distantearlywarning
It doesn't address your original point in any way (an implication that the media was somehow hiding something), and it doesn't totally address mine either, in the sense that you still haven't explained why it's acceptable to riot over Tookie Williams and not over Katrina.

While I agree with your point that historically riots have happened over local issues, I still stand by my statement that they _should_ have happened in regard to the government's response to Katrina and not Tookie (if they happen in LA later this week). (And I'm not talking about NOLA, because the "rioting" that took place down there is ambiguous in terms of whether it can truly be classfied as social protest or rather as survival or maybe just greed.) The former is a much more important issue, involved a much heavier toll in terms of loss of life, and can be much more easily attributed to racism. To be honest, the response to this Tookie thing reminds me of Rita Crosby going on and on for months about Natalie whatever-her-name was in Aruba when there are still thousands of people missing in New Orleans. Or the hysterical RW rantings and protests about Terry Shiavo when many people have died in Texas because of Bush's law about ability to pay re: brain death in public hospitals.

Do these things happen because an individual person is easier for some people to form an emotional attachment to than thousands of the faceless? I don't know, but it's damn inappropriate. And it makes the Black community lose credibility in the eyes of the assholes out there (read: Fox News), who will be very quick to jump on the fact that they are rioting over a convicted murderer, regardless of what good things he's done during his stay in prison.

I'm not saying "fry Tookie Williams". I'm saying, let's see some moral outrage about something really important for once. If they don't like Katrina, surely there's some cause that could be substituted for the execution of a convicted murderer, given the amount of ACTUAL racism and bigotry that still exists in this country.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Actually, nothing I said implied the media was hiding anything.
Instead what I said was that the media shifts emphasis for whatever they feel they can sensationalize.

The media could have chosen to cover ongoing efforts regarding NOLA, but they don't.

The moral outrage is over the death penalty itself.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. I feel sorry for you, because you actually make sense
For decades, people have been placed on death row and eventually executed and now--JUST NOW--we've got some sort of strange DU contingent running breathlessly to the rescue of a total dirtbag like Tookie Williams.

You will be flamed into next year for this, you know; but just understand that that's how DU is. You have friends here nonetheless.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
64. I guess that Raymond "The Hatchet Man" Locket never read
one of Mr. Willims' books.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
72. integration
If it weren't for previous riots LA would be as culturally segregated as Detroit, Cleveland, Phillie, Chicago, DC or the Bronx. With close to 1 million African-Americans living in Los Angeles County, comparatively few now live in exclusively-black neighborhoods. South-Central is now only 15% black, but the percentage of blacks citywide (10%) has remained steady. I think that this kind of integration will actually negate the need for future riots. Smugger cities that never experienced this form of social upheaval might do well to learn from it; Bed-Stuy, S. Chicago and North Phillie are not the healthiest of neighborhoods.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #72
92. Agreed--LA is a better place now
You omit what allowed for the integration though: the flight of 2 million white Repugs to Arizona, Nevada, the Central Valley, etc.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. whites
Much of the white flight came back though, when jobs went wanting. Point is, maybe it's best when NO ONE group owns the city; Thai Town, Little Armenia, Olvera St and Leimert Park function best as places to sameple different cuisines, and not as prisons from which their respective citizens best not wander.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. It's not whites that are the problem, it's white Republicans
They have wealth and political clout and will actively resist integration. The "returning" white population hasn't been so Republican and they certainly harbor no hopes of never seeing a Mexican, like the Wilsonian Repug native whites who left after 92.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
73. Also, back in those days, the rioters were controlled and
diffused by the National Guard. Do we have a sufficient National Guard today? Or, are they over in Iraq.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. Wrong
What did Ice Cube say? "Your national guard ain't hard/you had to get Rodney on TV to stop me" The riots only stopped when Rodney King asked them to stop--and if the troops can't control Iraq they certainly can't control LA!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
80. I wouldn't be surprised
:\
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
82. Big deal
That will just be a good way to round up some of these gang bangers into jail where they belong.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-12-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
83. Well, guess what will happen to the rioters then...
ARe you really suprised that a GANG would threaten to riot if its LEADER were executed?

I sure has hell wouldnt lose sleep over more Crips being locked away
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #83
96. Why don't we think about ways we can produce fewer Crips?
Or would that require thinking about social justice? I know that's not as fun as howling for blood, but it may be more productive.
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