Regarding Gov. Dean's comment .......

[H2O Man]

Flipping through the morning news, I saw a loud-mouthed fool on Fox, identified as "ManCow," ranting about Howard Dean's comment that the USA could not win the war in Iraq. As is the general tactic for those who appeal to emotion at the expense of common sense -- which is why Fox has this fellow on to begin with -- "ManCow" ignores what Dean actually said, and substitutes a lie instead. He went on to say that democrats get a kick out of US soldiers getting killed in Iraq, which is the exact opposite of the truth.

Normally, I think it is a good thing to avoid responding to Fox and their ilk. They have indeed missed their calling in life: rather than waste their time in media, they should be pursuing doctorates in the science of scatology .... because they can change hard facts into a soft fecal matter in the blink of an eye.

I am going to quote a paragraph from Seymour Hersch's 2004 book "Chain of Command" (Harper) that DUers should "cut & paste" for use in e-mailing Fox and other media sources. It shows clearly that Dean simply expressed a truth that others have said for a couple years now. From page 352:

"Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister, who supported the Bush Administration's invasion of Iraq, took it upon himself at about the same time to privately warn Vice President Dick Cheney that America had lost in Iraq; according to an American close to Barak, he said that Israel 'had learned that there's no way to win an occupation.' The only issue, Barak told Cheney, 'was choosing the size of your humiliation.' Cheney did not respond to Barak's assessment. (Cheney's office declined to comment.)"

Hersch includes information on how military experts recognize that while there is no way the US military is going to be defeated on the battle field per say, the insurgents will continue to gain strength and support as the occupation continues. History is a funny thing: sometimes when a leader starts a war based on a lie, the exact opposite of what he says will happen, actually does occur. Thus, it seems rather ironic that Bush/Cheney supporters attack Dean for telling the public what others have told the administration in private.

It is not just our allies in Israel that recognize what Fox does not want Howard Dean to tell the American public. Michael Scheuer, in "Imperial Hubris," (Brassey's, 2004), quotes Ayman al-Zawahiri from 2003: "We thank God for appeasing us with the dilemma in Iraq after Afghanistan. The Americans are facing a delicate situation in both countries. If they withdraw they will lose everything and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death" (xxi).

Contrast this with the president's saying that he will accept nothing short of total victory. He assures the public that despite what is reported daily in the media, things are getting better in Iraq. Bush tells us that the US can get out only after training the Iraqi police and military.

Recent surveys show that more than 40% of the general population of Iraq believes that it is okay to attack the US soldiers who occupy their country. Common sense would indicate if 40% of the police and soldiers the US is training are okay with attacking our soldiers, we are not going to achieve the total victory that Bush believes he is entitled to.

[pberq]

1. Kick! - Recommended

Great post H2O!

[G_j]

2. Victory?

when 40% of the general population believes that it is okay to attack the US soldiers who occupy their country and many more than that just want them to get out?

[pberq]

81. exactly, G_j

- it doesn't take a genius to see that "victory" will never happen. This fits right in with their plans to have a permanent military presence in Iraq.

on edit: spelling

[jonnyblitz]

3. yikes, that quote from Ayman al-Zawahiri says it all....

I must read "Imperial Hubris", i have been meaning to...

great post! :thumbsup:

[Dhalgren]

4. Kick and recommended!

"If they withdraw they will lose everything and if they stay, they will continue to bleed to death" This is the simple truth that must be told to the American people - we seem to be the only people on Earth who don't yet understand this fully...

[MrBenchley]

5. Not defending Faux Noise...

But Dean DID say, "'The idea that the United States is going to win the war in Iraq is just plain wrong," which gave the Republicans a perfect sound bite to use.

There's little to do about it but say it was taken out of context and ignore any attempt to fuss over it. Defending Dean's statement is only going to keep the soundbite alive.

[Upfront]

6. When has Dean been wrong?

He has not and he is right on target on this one. The truth is hard to accept it seems.

[G_j]

7. yes, don't discuss the truth

it might be used against 'us'

[H2O Man]

8. That quote is correct.

And Dean is correct. I think it is a good thing to discuss it. I think expanding the discussion is a good thing, especially when people on Fox purposely misrepresent what Dean said, and pretend that he is giddy at the thought of American deaths in Iraq. I think the American public is capable of making the distinction.

[G_j]

9. this is just what needed to be addressed during the Vietnam war

and eventually could not be avoided, despite lies from people like General Westmoreland (sp?).

More tons of bombs were dropped on VN by the US than in all the previous wars combined. Cambodia was secretly bombed.
How many lives were lost pretending that 'victory' could be attained?

[H2O Man]

10. Right.

Part of it is as simple as realizing that we do not have to subscribe to the same definitions as George Bush and Dick Cheney. What they see as "victory" need not be a goal that America need to sacrifice its sons and daughters for. Likewise, Dean is NOT saying that we will "lose." We do not need to accept the Bush-Cheney definition of "loss." We are nor required to view life in the context of the boxes set up by Fox news. We should actually start thinking for ourselves.

[BeFree]

11. I say: We Won

The war is over, and the US should not be in the business of nation building.

[bigtree]

12. Our party has collectively tiptoed around declaring that the invasion

and occupation was wrong. It's disconcerting to have our words twisted against us in an atempt to make us seem less patriotic, but the republicans don't realize that when they label a politician who declares Iraq a failure they also insult Americans who feel that way as well.

Dean has nothing to nuance when he says we can't win in Iraq. He should stick with the line. It's much more believable to the public than the rosy bull the administration is pushing.

[MrBenchley]

27. If only you had been there!

Little did we know back then that all somebody had to do in '66 or '67 was announce "the war cannot be won" in order for the clouds to part and the war to end.

I'm sure now the Republicans are just going to admit that they were wrong and the war cannot be won. </sarcasm>

[G_j]

59. I was there

but don't waste your breath on me, tell it to the 50,000 friends whose names grace the wall and the three million dead Vietnamese. EOM

[H2O Man]

65. Checkmate. n/t

[MrBenchley]

66. And you didn't stop the war in 1966 by "speaking truth"?

Go figure.

[Beetwasher]

72. Is The War In Vietnam Still Raging?

:shrug:

Oh, that's right, it DID end. How did that happen?

[MrBenchley]

75. So why didn't he stop it in 1966

since it's so easy. After all, he said all we had to do was "tell the truth."

Guess that didn't occur to anyone in 1967 or 1968 or 1969 or 1970 or.....

[G_j]

83. are you deliberately misrepresenting people?

easy?? who said that?
It took far too long for the truth to overcome the lies. Perpetuating the lie that Vietnam was winnable cost millions of lives.
Did the US "win" in the end? Should we have turned VN to 'glass' with a few nukes? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

91. "Perpetuating the lie that Vietnam was winnable "

Gee, if only somebody had made that point in 1966 or 1967....

[Beetwasher]

97. Are You On Drugs?

Seriously. WTF are you talking about?

You can't win an argument against people's actual points, so you just make shit up that they never said. How pathetic.

[burythehatchet]

113. Who is this "Ignored" person? I can't see what s/he's saying

:rofl:

[AntiCoup2K4]

126. You aren't missing much

Just the usual DLC talking points right off of Big Al's desk.

[G_j]

116. self delete

never mind :-)

[Beetwasher]

85. WTF Are You Talking About?

Who said it was so easy and that was all we had to do? You like spouting bullshit and putting words in people's mouths? Telling the truth and getting it out there is a big step though and a necessary one. Who said it's the ONLY one? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

93. Don't blame me if you don't read the thread....

[Beetwasher]

95. Point It Out Then, It Should Be Easy

Put up or shut up.

You responded to a post and accused the poster of saying shit he never said. You are full of shit. If not, put up, Chester.

[Beetwasher]

71. That's The Stupidest Thing I Ever Heard

and insulting to boot.

Actually, yes, that is what needed to happen in the 60's, and thankfully DID happen. One person stands up and says it can't be won, then another, then another and guess what, you have a movement that DID end a useless war. Where were YOU? I guess you missed that part about the war ending and the popular movement that helped bring about it's end. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

77. Geeze, I think it's insulting

to everyone who was in the anti-war movement for somebody to announce now that there was a simple thing we should have done to end the war.

"One person stands up and says it can't be won, then another, then another and guess what, you have a movement that DID end a useless war. Where were YOU?"
I was actually working to build a consensus among people who wanted to stop the war...

"I guess you missed that part about the war ending and the popular movement that helped bring about it's end."
No, the part I missed was where it ended because somebody told "the truth" and that turned out to be all that had been needed.

[TNOE]

86. What did we win in Viet Nam Mr. Benchly?

I can't remember, 56,000+ dead soldiers and countless wounded in a foreign land NOT protecting America and now 2,100+ dead in Iraq NOT protecting America - what did we win or lose in Viet Nam.

They are peaceful now - No? They never did come over to fight us here so we didn't have to fight them there did they? We left - and they went about the business of putting their lives back together. Now AMerica and Viet Nam are trading partners, no? So what DID WE LOSE IN VIET NAM except for countless dead and wounded? Admittedly, some big fat hogs got a lot fatter at the war trough, but other than that, I just don't know what we lost.

[MrBenchley]

90. That IS rich.....

If only we'd had you wowsers back then to advise the rest of us how to stop the war, since you seem to find it so doggoned easy now....

[Beetwasher]

92. Again, With The BULLSHIT and Misrepresentation!

Why do you do that? Why do you put words in people's mouths? Is it because you're arguments are intellectually bankrupt so you have to create strawmen?

Who said it was EASY? Point to a single post where someone said it was ONLY a matter of speaking the truth and it's that simple? Put up or shut up.

[MrBenchley]

98. Geeze, I'm not the one who said

"this is just what needed to be addressed during the Vietnam war"
That sure seems to me to be reducing a complex and diffcult situation to an easy-bake answer. And it seems like an insult to both those who are working to bring Iraq to a resolution now, and those who were in the anti-war movement then.

[Beetwasher]

100. Only If You Don't Comprehend What You Read (Or Are Full Of Shit)

I suspect the latter in your case.

It WAS what needed to addressed, who said it was easy or the ONLY thing that needed to be done? Only YOU said that.

It seems that way to you because you'd rather argue about some bullshit strawman instead of arguing your intellectually bankrupt position.

[MrBenchley]

106. Or if you think about what he's saying....

"who said it was easy or the ONLY thing that needed to be done?"
Perhaps you could show me where in that post he mentioned all the other things that needed to be done.

[Beetwasher]

109. For God's Sake Man STOP BEATING YOUR WIFE!

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Should I assume that since you didn't mention that you don't beat your wife in your post that YOU DO beat your wife?

For god's sakes man, STOP BEATING YOUR WIFE!

[TNOE]

101. Well it is easy

just pull out and come home - its a hell of a lot harder to start a war, the prepartion, the planning, the logistics.... what's going to change - you think the Iraqi's are going to board their camels and come after us over here?

[MrBenchley]

112. Quick, go tell Dr. Dean....

I'm sure he's just sitting around waiting to hear that strategy.....

[Beetwasher]

88. Why Do You Find It Necessary To Make Shit Up?

"this is just what needed to be addressed during the Vietnam war
and eventually could not be avoided, despite lies from people like General Westmoreland (sp?).

More tons of bombs were dropped on VN by the US than in all the previous wars combined. Cambodia was secretly bombed.
How many lives were lost pretending that 'victory' could be attained?"

That's the post in full. Why do you lie about what the poster said? How intellectually bankrupt of you.

Please point out where the poster says that's ALL that needed to be done or there was a simple thing that would have ended the war.

Wow, you are incredibly dishonest, why is that?

[H2O Man]

99. Actually, the poster puts his

stance in a weaker light by mentioning the Vietnam experience. The things he has said here today about Dr. Dean echo the things said about Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy when they began speaking out against the war in Vietnam. And while it is true that their speaking out against the war in 1967 and 1968 didn't end the war in a day or a week, it surely helped the country to recognize that we were stuck in a war we could not win.

[Beetwasher]

105. Exactly! It's Like He's Posting From Bizarro World Where Somehow

The Vietnam war WAS won and there was no popular movement headed by people telling the truth about it that lead to it's end.

Now, I know there are some people today who would certainly like to rewrite history to that effect, but they wouldn't be posting here on DU now, would they? Nahhh...

[H2O Man]

111. I do not know the person

who is posting these things. I am willing to accept that he is sincere, but I disagree 100% with what he is saying. He had challenged someone to go into a bar and say some nonsense, which wasn't at all what the person said. I expect that quality of "debate" to be found in bars and on Fox. I thinkwe can do better here on DU.

I saw some young people on tv, causing a scene at a Senator Clinton speech. Now, I'm an old man, and I'm not prone to making public disturbances these days. And I've liked Clinton both times I've met her. But I was really proud of those young people. I thought it was great that they took a stance, and made their voices heard. I understand that there are some bump-on-a-log democrats who will wring their hands and say those young kids were wrong. Not me. I hope that more young Americans follow their lead.

[MrBenchley]

108. LOL!

Acvtually the things said here nowadays about Hillary most closely mirror what the far left was saying about Bobby Kennedy in 1968....he was derided for not coming out against th ewar, and thenwhen he did, he was derided for doing so only after Eugene McCarthy had made it "safe"....

"And while it is true that their speaking out against the war in 1967 and 1968 didn't end the war in a day or a week, it surely helped the country to recognize that we were stuck in a war we could not win."
You mean you're going to mention that there was more to stopping the war than "just what needed to be addressed during the Vietnam war"?

[Beetwasher]

121. Is English Your First Language?

I ask because maybe that would explain your inability to understand simple words.

"That's just what needed to be done" in no way implies it's the ONLY thing that needed to be done or that it's easy.

As an example, I need to install a new sink in my bathroom. But, before I can do that, I need to remove the old sink. A conversation I have w/ someone about this might go something like this:

Me: "I need to install a new sink in my bathroom, I'll need to take out the old one first but I'm having problems because the plumbing is rusty and won't come off"

Friend: "Try some WD40 on the plumbing"

Next day:

Me: "Hey, I tried the WD40 and it worked like a charm! That was just what needed to be done".

Now, from this conversation, would you assume that by applying WD40 I had finished installing my new sink? From what you're saying, it seems that way.

[MrBenchley]

151. Just WD40 and nothing else, eh? That WAS lucky.

"Hey, I tried the WD40 and it worked like a charm! That was just what needed to be done. I didn't need to get a hacksaw and saw the pipe fittings off. I didn't need to tear down the wall. Just WD-40. That's all."

Funny, in English, when "just": is used as an adverb, as it is here, it carries the meaning of "precisely," "exactly," "simply," "merely" or "only."

[Beetwasher]

168. Funny, Indeed

Funny to see you doing gymnastics to defend your idiocy.

"this is just what needed to be addressed during the Vietnam war"

As in "exactly" or "precisely". And it's correct at that. The lies were exactly and precisely what needed to be addressed then AND now. Does that mean ONLY??? Only to idiots who like to twist things out of context. Does that mean it was simple and it lead to a quick and immediate end of the war? Again, only to idiots.

[G_j]

119. growing pains...some lessons are very difficult to learn

and we must hope that time is also a teacher.
People said that slavery was wrong long before the practice was ended.
I have learned that very few lessons that are really signifigant to our growth are "easy".

[H2O Man]

123. Growing pains & difficult lessons .....

Once again, one of your posts reminds me of some of my favorite sayings .....

"There exists no more difficult art than living, for there are numerous teachers to be found for all other arts and sciences. Young people believe that they have acquired these in such a way that they can teach them to others. Throughout the whole of life, one must continue to learn to live; and what will amaze you even more, throughout life, one must learn to die."
-- Lucius Annaeous Seneca; c. 4 bc - 65 ad; advocate of Stoicism

Those who are attacking Dean today, no matter if they are republicans or democrats, might think Seneca is advocating that we follow the Bush policies .... as they surely lead to death. But they err .... and they surely didn't grasp what King or Kennedy lived and died for in 1968.

[G_j]

128. learning

a very powerful quote!

and today I am learning (painfully, again) to look beyond words and not be deliberately unkind to a fellow human being.

H20 Man, will the Good Mind prevail?
I think I know your answer.
& Thank you

[H2O Man]

132. Part Two:

"If the way which, as I have shown, leads hither seems very difficult, it can nevertheless be found. It must indeed be difficult, since it is so seldom discovered. For if salvation lay ready at hand and could be discovered without great labour, how could it be possible that it remains neglected by so many people? But all noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
-- Spinoza

Yes, the Good Mind prevails. Always.

[G_j]

150. --

"It is the Vague and Elusive. Meet it and you will not see its head. Follow it and you will not see its back."
Lao Tzu

[Senator Obama]

207. Remember Water Cronkite?

I seem to recall he made a war is nor winnabe declaration. I also recall LBJ's prophetic response: " If we've lost Cronkite, we've lost America". LBJ is the only US president I was priviledged to meet in person. Interestingly enough, I met both him and the Shah of Iran in Tehran in 1963.

Sen. Obama

[annabanana]

214. Welcome to DU

:toast:

[Me.]

16. General Odom Said The Same Thing Last Night

on Chris Matthews. He considers this war one of the biggest military blunders this country has ever made. Why isn't Fox quoting him? Dean is an easy target ever since the media did a hatchet job on him. The fact that he hasn't been wrong yet but that never seems to be acknowledged, they always try to delegate him to some "lunatic" fringe.

[MrBenchley]

17. "Why isn't Fox quoting him?"

Because General Odom isn't Democratic chairman.

[H2O Man]

19. Exactly.

Neither of these men want to see more Americans injured or killed in Iraq. Both recognize that blindly following the Bush "policy" in Iraq can only lead to more violence, death and destruction all around. More dead Americans, more dead Iraqis, and more of an entrenched hatred for our country around the globe.

[zaj]

37. The Hardball-Odom Transcript is up...

If you need it for quoting...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10348418/

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. As so many of our own at DU were gleeful to do as well.

:hi:

[MrBenchley]

18. I got no problem with discussing the strategy of the war

and pointing out what a failure the current "plan" or whatever it is has been from even before day one. As David Mamet said, these guys could fuck up a baked potato.

But Dean shouldn't have given them such a blatantly silly soundbite.

[Me.]

20. Some Time The Truth Isn't Convenient

I know they are going to make a storm out of this, Mehlman has been at it already. But when does the truth get spoken?

[MrBenchley]

21. Sometimes the chairman of a political party

has to act like the chairman of a political party....

"But when does the truth get spoken? "
Who's stopping you? Walk into any bar or coffee shop, sit down at the counter, and announce tot he guy next to you in a big loud voice, "Well, we sure lost that war in Iraq, didn't we?"

[H2O Man]

23. That is distinct.

The poster did not say "we sure lost the war in Iraq." That is a silly distraction from what he/she said, which is that Dean was accurate in saying we cannot win the war in Iraq. It seems a curious tactic to shift from something a person did say, to something that they surely didn't say. In fact, that was what led me to make the OP -- this fellow "ManCow" taking what Dean did say, and turning it into something he never said. It's a cheap tactic.

[MrBenchley]

25. Dean's exact quote was....

"'The idea that the United States is going to win the war in Iraq is just plain wrong."

If it makes you feel better, go into the coffee shop and announce that exactly, instead of paraphrasing it.

[H2O Man]

31. Proud to use that quote.

I'm glad he said it. So proud that I'll send a donation to him, and ask him to say it again.

Some people just don't like Howard Dean. So when he starts a frank discussion about the war, they make comments like, "He wants Americans killed." When other democrats say they agree with Dean, and say they think the country needs to take a sober look at what he says, others might make silly challenges about "go in a bar and say that." It's a cheap tactic that seeks to avoid discussing what Dean was talking about. But Dean was right to say it. To quote Gandhi, "When it is relevant, truth must be uttered, however unpleasant it may be."

[MrBenchley]

39. Then don't bitch when right wingers use it

"When other democrats say they agree with Dean, and say they think the country needs to take a sober look at what he says, others might make silly challenges about "go in a bar and say that.""
If you think it's such a silly challenge, feel free to try it. But if you were really proud of it, why would that even be seen as a "challenge?" Adn why would you be in any way reluctant to say it out loud in public?

[H2O Man]

44. You are silly. n/t

[Don Claybrook]

84. He's not silly

He's just going through an "agree with every Republican talking point" phase.

[Just Me]

46. I'm not reluctant to say it out loud because it's the damned truth!!!

I will also not hesitate to call out the repukes who twist that truth into into something neo-mccarthy. It's bullshit!!!

[MrBenchley]

49. Good for you!

Let us know what reaction you get from the public at large.

I personally think it pushes people away unnecessarily.

[Just Me]

52. That has not been my experience.

To the contrary, I can report that all responses have been positive with nods of agreement,...and I live in a very conservative area.

[MrBenchley]

55. Good to hear....

It bodes well for 2006.

[AntiCoup2K4]

87. Anyone who still supports this war needs to be pushed away from this party

And that includes your employers.

[MrBenchley]

103. Some people just can't wait to have a Soviet-style purge

That's some swell "freedom loving" on display there, by cracky.

So tell us, the Democrats who are actually fighting in Iraq right now....are they going to be forbidden to vote under your plan?

[AntiCoup2K4]

124. Well, if the ones currently running for Congress are any indication....

...I would say they're not big on corporatist wars either. Go figure, having just returned from one......

[H2O Man]

127. I'm not sure

exactly what the one individual meant by "purge" .... I tend to think of induced vomiting, in order to rid the body of some poison. I note that VP Cheney gave an endorsement of the person who ran against him in 2000, as VP on the Gore ticket. That senator has taken a position on the war that is as republican as any of the neoconservatives in the administration. He makes me feel like vomiting.

[MrBenchley]

153. I wonder if you can actually produce one

who uses the silly phrase "corporatist wars".....

Folks like Brian Lentz, David Ashe and Patrick Murphy seem to be moderate, centrist Democrats of the sort you openly despise.

So how about the ones over there who are fighting for their lives. Should they be purged because they're "supporting the war?"

[Beetwasher]

48. I Already Overhear That Talk in Bars

And guess what, most people agree. We can't win this war. I will and DO say it loud and proud. We can't win. It's the truth and it's the majority viewpoint these days. Deal with it. Dean is merely articulating what everyone already knows is the truth.

[MrBenchley]

53. Glad to hear it.

Myself, I think it's going to be unnecessarilly divisive. Hope Howard ignores any attempt to bait him on it.

Love to see the poll you have that has a majority of Americans agreeing with the statement "we can't win." I know there's a majority opposed to the current mess and looking for a way out...I've yet to see that a majority agrees with this.

[Beetwasher]

64. The Majority Thinks The War Was Wrong

That Bush Misled the US and wants the troops out. That's close enough. Why do you think the majority wants a way out? Because they think we've already won? :eyes:

There may in fact be a poll that asks if the war is winnable and a majority say no, I seem to remember a question like that, but I don't remember exactly where. But clearly, the war is NOT popular and for good reason, it's not winnable. Deans comments will not be universally derided because most people agree with him already, whether they want to admit it or not.

Thanks for your opinion. Thankfully, you're in no position to have any influence on Dean. He'll continue telling the truth and fostering frank, open discussion, which is exactly what we need. Only cowards run from the truth.

[MrBenchley]

74. Yeah, they do....

But just because some think the war was wrong doesn't necesaarily translate into the same people agreeing we can't win.

For example, here's General Clark yesterday....

"In the old, familiar fashion, mounting U.S. casualties in Iraq have mobilized increasing public doubts about the war. More than half the American people now believe that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. They're right. But it would also be a mistake to pull out now, or to start pulling out or to set a date certain for pulling out. Instead we need a strategy to create a stable, democratizing and peaceful state in Iraq -- a strategy the administration has failed to develop and articulate.
From the outset of the U.S. post-invasion efforts, we needed a three-pronged strategy: diplomatic, political and military. Iraq sits geographically on the fault line between Shiite and Sunni Islam; for the mission to succeed we will have to be the catalyst for regional cooperation, not regional conflict."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/25/AR2005082501623_pf.html

"But clearly, the war is NOT popular and for good reason, it's not winnable."
Better tell Dean's spokesperson that...she's doing damage control (as needed)...

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan.""

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

"Thankfully, you're in no position to have any influence on Dean."
Sez you.

[Beetwasher]

80. LOL!

If you're having an influence on Dean, it's only because he does the opposite of what you say he should do. :eyes:

People know we can't win. The politicians know we can't win. They couch there words carefully, but they know it and you know it and everyone knows it. It's the truth that only a brave few like Dean have the courage to articulate. His spokesperson of course will do her job, but Dean put the truth out there and it was the right thing to do and I doubt it will drive anyone away no matter how much you whine about it.

[MrBenchley]

154. What I said he should do is damage control, and that's what's happening

His spokespeople are doing the sort of damage control I recommend...that doesn't seem like "the opposite".

"People know we can't win. The politicians know we can't win." sez you.

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

[Beetwasher]

170. "Sez You"

LOL! Yeah, ok Bugsy. :eyes:

What you call "damage control", is actually extrapolation. Though of course, you take the Republican Talking Point position and try to frame it negatively. What a surprise! You're spouting Repub talking points, whoda thunk it?

I guess context is irrelevant to you. Go figure. You'll notice the context of her response, that you of course, fail to highlight: "and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan.""

Yeah, like any of that will ever happen. :eyes: IOW, we ain't gonna win. Gee, a spokesperson doing her job and extrapolating on what her boss said. Get outta here! :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

178. Actually, sez Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney, now saying HOW WE CAN WIN

by throwing it back in Chimpy's lap, as Dean should have done in the first place.

"You'll notice the context of her response"
Yeah, the context is that her boss said something dumb and now she's scrambling to make it seem less dumb.

"You're spouting Repub talking points"
Not evcen close to true...not only are YOU spouting the Republican talking point, but you're thumping your chest and bellowing it as if you can't figure out why the GOP is using it as a talking point.

[Beetwasher]

179. Bwahahahaha!

Keep twisting, Chester. It's really funny. LOL!

Dean sure has a funny way of saying something "dumb" that's gets people all in a tizzy and talking about what he says. Now everyone's talking about whether or not we can win in Iraq and comparing it to Vietnam. That's half the battle, just getting the discussion started.

Yeah, it was so dumb of him to say it. I'm sure he regrets it. LOL!!!

You really don't have a clue do you?

[MrBenchley]

182. Sez Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney , explaining HOW WE CAN WIN IT

"I'm sure he regrets it."
I'm sure he does too....which is why he's out trying to do damage control today...

[Beetwasher]

184. Good Lord You Are Pathetic

Keep spouting the same bullshit, maybe that will make it mean what you want it to. She did NOT say "Here's how we can win".
She said "We can only win IF..." Big difference, considering the "if's" are all essentially impossibilities and slams against Bush's incompetence. But then you've already shown yourself to be too dishonest to actually refer to things in context.

Finney is continuing the discourse, Einstein. The debate has been framed by Dean. Yeah, I know, sucks for people like you who like to live in a demented fantasy world, but there it is.

[MrBenchley]

185. Sez Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney , explaining HOW WE CAN WIN IT

It's called damage control.

[Beetwasher]

186. LOL! Yeah, I Could See How A Repub Spokesoperson Might Say That

Was "damage control". To Democrats (and other people w/ actual brains and independent thought), it's called responding to Mehlman's bullshit and mischaracterization. Funny, you're on the same page as Repub Lackeys.

BTW, did you see the poll on that page? Admittedly unscientific, but interesting nonetheless.

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 14% 3444 votes

Yes, but a long haul 26% 6473 votes

No 61% 15320 votes
Total: 25237 votes


Bwahahahahahah! Can't even freep that one!

Yeah, Deans doing damage control. LOL! Now, if Dean hadn't said what he did, would CNN even HAVE that poll up? Hmmm...

Pathetic. Keep it up though, it sure is amusing to see you squirm.

[MrBenchley]

188. Sez Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney , explaining HOW WE CAN WIN IT

It's hilarious to see you pretending damage control isn't damage control....

Just as it's funny as hell to hear you parroting exactly what the Republicans are saying.

[Beetwasher]

189. What's Funny Is You Keep Posting Something Finney Never Said

It just makes you look really, really stupid and desperate.

She said "We can only win IF.."

You like to make shit up to defend your bankrupt positions and that is pathetic.

The Repubs are saying the Iraq war is unwinnable? Really? Where, Einstein? Although I'm sure you'll just make something up.

How about that poll, huh? Looks like Dean really picked the losing side, huh? LOL!

[MrBenchley]

204. Sez Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney , explaining HOW WE CAN WIN IT

And that's how it is that I can quote her, and you can't.....

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan.""

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

[Beetwasher]

206. Pathetic (Oh, BTW, 62% Say The War Can't Be Won)

Learn how to understand what you read. Just because you keep posting it over and over doesn't mean it says what you want it to.

Keep going though, the more you keep posting it, the more pathetic you look. I think you should post it a million times, maybe by then you'll actually believe it yourself. :eyes: Truly pathetic.

[Me.]

134. Pick Your Expert

Cause there are plenty on both sides. Murtha says we should get out and apparently he's speaking for a growing number of the military. I don't hear him jumping on Dean, nor the men who say we'll be there for 25 years with no guarantee of "winning".

[H2O Man]

136. Those lacking spines

will not pick either Murtha or Dean. They are more comfortable allowing the republicans to do their thinking for them.

[motocicleta]

160. I am not reluctant to say such a thing

And I frankly cannot follow whatever the hell convoluted excuse for logic you are using. Try to simplify things for yourself. It's not so confusing.

Man says truth.
Liars twist truth for their own ends.
Man's peers question his truth.
In the end, and it often takes a while, truth will out.
This is always as it has been, and how it will always be.

Any other logic is specious. Fox will say what it will, but it won't change the fact that there is no chance for the US to do any further "winning" in Iraq. At this point in our fragile democracy, telling the truth is enough to get a man vilified. It is sad, but true. It doesn't make telling the truth wrong.

As far as your challenge to go tell it in a bar: if I was a regular, I'd say it. Nowadays, I say it where I am a regular, with my family and colleagues. I can't imagine any reason to say the truth in a place where no one knows me or respects my advice. If you are suggesting that we go lecture people who have no basic respect for us, I suggest you should study human behavior a little more closely before giving suggestions.

If, on the other hand, a man knows the truth and cannot bring himself to speak it in front of his peers, whose respect he holds, I think that man is a craven coward. If that describes you, the only way to redeem your soul will be to get your ass down to your bar and start the dialogue. Trust me, if you have their respect, it won't be that bad.

[Beetwasher]

42. Heh?

What the hell does going into a coffee shop and saying that have anything at all to do w/ anything. And anyway, I WOULD go into a coffee shop and say that. Why not? If someone feels differently, let them make themselves known, come what may.

The truth is the truth. Only cowards don't want to hear it or are ashamed to speak it. Dean is no coward, that's for sure.

[H2O Man]

54. Oh yeah?

How about a double-dare to go into a shop that sells sugar doughnuts?

[Beetwasher]

57. Yikes! In That Case Forget About It!

No way am I going in there!

[H2O Man]

61. You Dean people

are all alike! I dare you to burn a flag at a convenience store while you are pumping gas, if you really feel so strongly about your hatred for Apple Pie and The American Way. Double dare ya!

[Me.]

26. There Has Been A Lot Of Turmoil

especially here on DU, because the leaders of the party haven't been standing up and either talking the truth or demanding it be told. But when one does there is also turmoil. It's sort of schizophrenic. But Lieberman will save the day. He has already come out and disavowed what Dean had to say. It's really a case of whether or not to believe our "lying eyes".

[MrBenchley]

47. Of course, underlying much of this

is the silly notion that there is some "truth" that only a handful of the anointed can see clearly and that folks like Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and John Edwards are either lying about or afraid to utter aloud.

"It's sort of schizophrenic."
Only if your model for a political organization is "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer." Otherwise you realize that dissension and discussion is not only healthy but the strength of our party. Of course, one hopes that the chairman of the party might be a bit circumspect when near a microphone.

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. Yes, Chairman Dean...Shame on you for giving voice to so many

people who don't have the media outlet for saying such. I'm disgusted that you've outed this for what it is.

[MrBenchley]

115. Well, his spokesperson is out doing damage control today

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

Guess it's not such a bad thing that some people don't have a media outlet....

[ScreamingMeemie]

138. Pity, isn't it? I am so glad he says what he does. I hope he says

it louder the next time. After all, the emperor truly is naked. Sorry you seem to have a problem with it...sorry the media does, but, I hope he keeps it up. :hi:

And it is because some people don't have a media outlet to voice their opinions that were in this mess in the first place. Wouldn't you agree? Probably not, but, oh well.


editied for punctuation.

[MrBenchley]

148. I hope he says it more judiciously....

"Sorry you seem to have a problem with it.."
My problem is with how he said it.

"And it is because some people don't have a media outlet to voice their opinions that were in this mess in the first place."
I doubt it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

156. I don't.

:hi:

[MrBenchley]

157. So you'd prefer this dreary cycle of misstep and backtrack?

[madfloridian]

190. Judicious folly is why we are there. Time to speak plain truth.

.

[MrBenchley]

205. Hahahahahaha....

That IS rich coming from the person who tried to trot out Pete DuPont's pal as a source for Democratic advice...or tried to spin a silly consipracy theory about the DLC because you didn't know DNC conference had been rescheduled....

[Guaranteed]

201. Did you happen to notice the POLL dead in the center of that article?

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/21836.exclude.html

I think maybe...just maybe...Dean knows what he's doing.

[azureblue]

158. true

but you know, if it isn't this sound bite, they'll find another one, or misquote Dean, or just make up one. Remember, they have done this to Dean many times already.

We can't continue thinking about what the Repug will say. We already know they lie & will never admit they are wrong, so why bother concerning ourselves with what they think?

Most Americans have already caught on to the lies & spin. It would be far better for us to have Dean say what he did, plainly, and clearly, and in doing so, let the world know exactly where he stands.

It is far more important for the Dems to establish why they are better for America, and what their plans are. as long as we worry about Repug backlash, this will never happen.

[Mr_Spock]

13. He's 1000000% correct because we've already lost.

If we declared "Mission Accomplished" two years ago and we're still fighting and losing soldiers at a more rapid pace than at that time, it's clear to even the casual observer that we've already lost. This is clearly NOT mission accomplished. We are delusional and we've lost, lost, lost, lost lost. There is no possible face saving that will make this pig look good.

[H2O Man]

14. That's a good example

of why we should not accept the administration's "definitions" .... indeed, the president assured the nation that the mission was accomplished.

[madfloridian]

28. Benchley, yesterday I broke my rule and agreed with you on something.

Today I really disagree. I think you must be a little facetious here, as defending this "soundbyte" is the very patriotic thing to do.

Peace.

As I say, look what they did to him when he said the world was no safer with Saddam in jail. He was right then, too.

[MrBenchley]

58. Well, I think the thing for Howard tro do

is refuse to discuss the soundbite and continue to discuss the issue.

"As I say, look what they did to him when he said the world was no safer with Saddam in jail. He was right then, too. "
And look how it worked out for him as he swept to the nomination and the presidency...oops!

[madfloridian]

187. oops....and look how the rest of the year played out...oops.

Oops.

[AntiCoup2K4]

79. And out comes the DLC Intern with the From talking points for the day.....

Dean is correct. As always. And the corporatists can't stand it.

[MrBenchley]

110. Better tell it to Dean's spokesperson....

She's busy doing damage control along the lines I'm discussing...

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan.""

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

[AuntiBush]

199. Dean is Speaking the Truth.

How much more integrity can one ask for?

Defending Dean is defending our country, our troops, our lives.

The truth hurts, but all I can say is "it's about darn time" some one tells it like it is. I'm sick of the propaganda lies all in the name of greed, oil & global domination.

No way would this country have sent their families into harms way, all to fill the pockets of the likes of these war-profiteer mongrels.

No more lies. Tell it like it is. Dean has my support :thumbsup:

[Loonman]

15. Mancow is an ignorant sonofabitch

With oatmeal for brains.

[Gregorian]

22. This hurts on several levels.

The other night, on cspan, Alan Dershowitz and Noam Chomsky debated the issue of how to end the Israel/Palestine conflict. Even at this level of education, Noam was getting riddled with flak from his opponent. The guy was picking and choosing his so-called facts. Twisting the truth to make Noam sound like he didn't know what he was talking about.

Everything we are confronting ultimately boils down to the people, and how they act and react to the information. What hurts is that the American people are clearly idiots. I really mean it. I grew up in San Francisco, and took intelligence for granted. Many are so heartless, careless, thoughtless, that I'm surprized.

It's a two sided problem- intelligent people with agendas, and unintelligent people who believe the lies.


On a lighter note- Thanks for posting this, since I go by the username of Mancow, on a forum. I will have to change that. :)

[Straight Shooter]

24. If 40% believe it's okay to attack the U.S. soldiers ...

... a reasonable person might infer that of that 40%, many would be willing to pose as Iraqi police or troops, and thereby infiltrate the "enemy" (meaning our troops).

I note that this has already happened on one or two occasions, and probably more occasions have been hushed up. george w. bush is making it very clear that we will be there for a long time. This is sending a clear signal to the insurgents that they have a long time to plan extremely deadly suicide attacks.

The hopeless are always the most desperate and the most willing to die for their cause.

[im10ashus]

29. Isn't Mancow a talk-radio person out of Chicago?

He is a loudmouth who can only yell to get his "point" across.

Seymour Hersch's book Chain of Command was an excellent, albeit frightening, read. I highly recommend it.

[H2O Man]

32. I think he is from Chicago.

Voltaire said that ignorance is the mother of all cruelty. "MadCow" seems dedicated to proving it. His shallow thinking and outright stupidity is what is needed to further the cruelty of the Bush/Cheney administration.

[im10ashus]

36. It's definitely the same one.

"Mad Cow" is quite appropriate too.

A firm I worked for in Chicago was representing a plaintiff in a slander suit against him. When he came in for his deposition, he treated the entire staff like peasants.

When Mad Cow is stumping for this administration, you know their demise is most certainly pending.

[H2O Man]

73. If I recall accurately,

when this fellow was being sued, he wanted support from the left for a "freedom of speech" case ..... he is a fine example for the youthful republican belief that increase volume is an adequate substitute for logic and reason.

[im10ashus]

118. Yes. Ironically, he was citing First Amendment rights.

And again, yes, he is of that belief that loud means they are correct. I never understood how he had such a huge listening audience in Chicago.

[bunkerbuster1]

62. Howard Stern once referred to him as "Man-Queer"

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[LTR]

130. I think he also called him "Girlcow"

Mancow's radio show really sucks. He used to be on here locally but was dropped a few years ago. His whole schtick is that he can't decide whether to imitate Stern or Limbaugh, so he copies both.

He's also notorious for stealing other radio personalities' material (he blatantly airs stuff I know originated from other jocks). Is also known to take most of his material from faxed 'comedy prep sheets'.

Mancow is an untalented arrogant asshole, and I've heard little but bad things about him personally and professionally.

[Jacobin]

30. Thank you. People get ruffled when Dean speaks the truth

And, people should get ruffled, not at Dean, but at the people who put us in this position. That's what a lot of democrats don't understand.

[H2O Man]

33. Malcolm X used to tell us

that the more ruffled his enemy got, the closer to the truth he was.

[Pithy Cherub]

34. Brilliant H20Man! Richard Clarke recently espoused the same

thoughts about not being able to win this. R. Clarke also extrapolated 5 years into the future with his fiction account of "The Scorpion's Gate." It clearly lays out the geo-political ramifications and Iran's stake in hegemony in Iraq.

Clarke, in his non-fiction book, "Against All Enemies," states boldly and concisely: "As an analysis by the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute, written by Jeffrey Record, argues, the Iraq war was 'a strategic error of the first magnitude.' Instead of energetically pursuing the priority of creating an ideological counterweight for al Qaeda, we invaded iraq, and gave al Qaeda exactly the propaganda fuel it needed. So much for the second of three priorities that we should have been pursuing after September 11." Page 274, hard cover edition.

Dean is leading and stating the unvarnished and painful truth. Dean is to be commended for his forthrightness and fortitude in the face of such overwhelming numbers of people in a stasis of permanent denial.

Thank you H20Man! :)

[H2O Man]

51. In Hersch's book

he writes about how Rumsfeld blew what chances our military had for making significant advances in Iraq. Perhaps the most important part of that can be found on pages 249-52. Rumsfeld decided to ignore the Pentagon's "most sophisticated war-planning document, the TPFDL -- time-phased forces deployment list ..."

Dean is saying the same thing Murtha said. It is sad that we have bumps-on-a-log democrats that have been brain-washed by the neocons in Washington and on Fox, and who accept their bullshit about any questioning of the Cheney position in Iraq means you want US soldiers killed.

[Pithy Cherub]

76. The Voices of Truth and the Defenders of Democracy

are becoming more outspoken. The HEROES are determined to state the Emperor Bush is without cover, continues a broken *strategery* to remain vulnerable and force his arrogant adherents to stand ashamed and naked before the world body. Democrats who cling to the hope of an outright military victory lost that during what was called this nation's "Week of Shame, October 3 through October 10, 2002." That is clearly outlined in statements of the historians, military and diplomacy experts in "Sorrows of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson.

[savemefromdumbya]

35. can someone shut Fox down

or buy it out or something!

[Child_Of_Isis]

38. democrats get a kick out of US soldiers getting killed in Iraq

This is way beyond absurd!

[H2O Man]

63. It is.

Yet is was said by both "ManCow" and the Fox Cow who inhabits their morning show.

[Just Me]

40. What gets me is that there are still those gullible or stupid or shallow,.

,...enough to swallow that complete bs. I mean, crap, are there people who are gluttons for misinfo? Is there a solid section of our society that clings to outrageous rumor-mills for some neurotic reason?

:shrug:

I just can not grasp "why" there are still folks out there who absorb the bs, hook and line and sinker.

[H2O Man]

70. There are those

who prefer to ingest what Ibsen called "ageing truths," and that Ouspensky described as "ancient rancid bacon or ... rotten green ham; and from them comes all the moral scurvy which is eating itself into the life of the people around us."

I'm glad that Dr. Dean is prescribing the truth.

[Rose Siding]

45. "Bush Cites Doubt America Can Win War on Terror", NYT Aug 04

Just to keep the hypocrisy meter bouncing....(This involves the WOT and not just Iraq -though the repubs do like to count them as one)

NASHUA, N.H., Aug. 30 - President Bush, in an interview broadcast on Monday, said he did not think America could win the war on terror but that it could make terrorism less acceptable around the world, a departure from his previous optimistic statements that the United States would eventually prevail.

In the interview with Matt Lauer of the NBC News program "Today," conducted on Saturday but shown on the opening day of the Republican National Convention, Mr. Bush was asked if the United States could win the war against terrorism, which he has made the focus of his administration and the central thrust of his re-election campaign.

"I don't think you can win it," Mr. Bush replied. "But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/politics/campaign/31bush.html?ex=1251691200&en=b257721394890931&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

via DNC site

[H2O Man]

60. Thank you.

Rational discussion helps put things into the proper perspective.

[Liberal Dose]

50. I just donated $50 to the DNC

I try to make a donation every time Dean comes under fire for telling the truth. I just wish I had more money. :hi:

[H2O Man]

56. Great!

I think that is the best way to invest money in the democratic process.

[newportdadde]

67. Yeah I caught a bit of ManCow's radio show this morning..

He was getting ready to talk blast about that(it was after his Fox appearance) when I was done with my commute and the first thing I thought was, whats the context of the quote? ManCow is really pretty much an asshole, we got him here a little while ago in KC, after a 6 year hiatus when he was on then for about 6 months. The guy has gotten much more political. His whole political angle is how evil all muslims are and how they all want to kill us etc.

Will Dean's comment get misused yep, but it is the truth. Does anyone really believe things will be better there after these 'elections'? The country is headed to Civil War as the different factions battle for power.

The problem is Americans don't like frank assessments they don't like reality. They pull out their plastic for that plasma TV when they can't afford it when they really need someone to say "YOU CAN'T AFFORD THAT DAMN THING!". The same goes for Iraq we don't want to admit loosing, we hate it we would rather throw more good bodies after the dead ones, much like the gambler going back for one last hand to 'break even' we just can't let it go.

[H2O Man]

82. When Martin Luther King

spoke out against the war in Vietnam, some people were outraged. When Robert Kennedy spoke out against it, those same people were furious. They attacked King and Kennedy then, they attack Dean now .... and I'm not saying that Dean is equal to MLK or RFK .... but rather than, because he is trying to tell the truth, those "Americans (who) don't like frank assessments" get upset. Too bad -- because we are upset by this war, and a growing number of Americans feel even more strongly about it than Dr. Dean.

[understandinglife]

68. "We will fight for the next 20 years...."

"Expect black days. Elections won't change anything. This is a long-term struggle. We will fight for the next 20 years," said Abu Mohammed, who used that name as an insurgent.

<clip>

Abu Mohammed and his insurgent brother sitting beside him in his shop aim to dig in for a protracted battle.

They dismiss candidates like Deputy Prime Minister Ahmad Chalabi, a former U.S. ally, and pro-Iranian Shi'ite leader Abdul Aziz al-Hakim and say they are exiles who rode into Iraq on American tanks.

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=6294718&cKey=1133886946000

Support the Bush Crimes Commission -- www.bushcommission.org


Peace.

[CatWoman]

69. I leave my TV on at night, and always wake up to the news

or CSpan -- whichever I'm watching before I crash.

I was awakened to the brouhaha over Dean's words.

It made me think back to something I read earlier -- how Team Bush is always changing the subject to get the heat off the "real" issues.

For example, when he gave a speech the day 10 Marines were killed, the subject wasn't about Iraq -- it was about the economy. The coward even refused to answer questions about Iraq.

What I'm getting at is these people are always looking for something to grasp upon to change the subject when the subject is "inconvenient' for them.

One needs to look at what is currently happening.

One major news story yesterday was the Delay indictment for money laundering going forward. Another was FEMA's sorry performance, as documented and the release of said documents, by Blanco.

They needed something quick.

However, I'm not worried. Howard is a big boy, and he doesn't back down when confronted/attacked by bullies.

[H2O Man]

78. Yes, right.

This is something that Dean and all democrats should continue to discuss. The weasals in the administration like to say that debate is a good thing, and then they attack those who engage them in a debate. That attack is part of the "switch" that you are talking about. We need democrats to use the same tactics that therapists use with violent offenders who try to twist a discussion about the trouble they cause. The administration isn't going to win this debate.

[Catherine Vincent]

89. "...democrats get a kick out of US soldiers getting killed in Iraq,"

No wonder I don't watch FoxNews, I can't believe a reporter would get away with saying something like that. This really upsets me because the brainwashed idiots that watch that channel religiously believe that BS! :mad:

[H2O Man]

94. They are sick.

That is a really sick thing for them to say. And of course they do not allow for a rational person to point out what a lie they are telling, and tp point out what an emotionally disturbed mind it takes to twist what Dean said.

[Qanisqineq]

96. ah, Mancow

the radio talk show host from Chicago. When I lived in IL I had the luxury of being able to listen to him in the morning. I did this on occasion and learned this from him:

-the reason boxcars of trains are gray (at least back in 2000) is because Pres. Clinton is preparing an urban assault on America

-it is okay to hit a man with your car, not report it to the police, and then continue on to work (I am pretty positive this didn't actually happen, but he pretended it did. And then we got to hear all the Chicago scumbags that called in saying this was ok)

-the democrats hate the military and Clinton destroyed the military and saying you are against this war kills troops

-all muslims want to kill us

-George Bush is a great man


That is the wisdom of Mancow. He is loud, obnoxious, talks constantly about republican family values while hosting a show that is at times similar in content to Howard Stern. He loves to intervew conspiracy theorists, especially when it is something bad about democrats. You want to hear muslim-hating people and democrat-hating troops? Listen to the callers of his show.

[truebrit71]

102. Mancow is a mucking foron....

...pure and simple...A Howard Stern wannabe...

[H2O Man]

104. As much as I'd like

to say, "You ARE kidding me, aren't you?" .... I saw enough this morning to convince me that this fellow is capable of saying such things. More, I would question if he is capable of saying anything that isn't that stupid.

[Qanisqineq]

114. no, he's not

He is just ignorant. No matter what your political persuasion, I honestly cannot understand how anyone can listen to him. He does not have a good radio voice, IMO. Too loud and grating. I listened every once in a while to see what he was talking about (he was on a favorite music station of mine in the morning). He is pompous, bitches constantly about his wife, and everything that comes out of his mouth is ignorant misinformation. Some of it is so completely out there, I would imagine it came from The National Enquirer. Seriously.

I happened to be listening the day he claimed he hit some man with his car on the way to work. To be perfectly honest, I was hoping it was true (and the man was ok) so he'd be arrested for leaving the scene of an accident, depraved indifference, something. After all, if it had been true, he was announcing it over the radio.

[madrchsod]

144. you forgot is dislike for women

[Dees]

175. Mancow...I watched and listened to his crap

for years. There are just a hand full of bat shit crazy right wingers that can light me up and he's right at the top of the list. He said, as far as I know still does, say the most vulgar and hateful things about the Clintons. If I were to meet him on the street he would not get past me by God.

[Qanisqineq]

192. he constantly called Clinton a rapist

And I'm sure he still does.

[Flubadubya]

107. Soledad O'Brien on CNN had a snide comment to make also...

She was previewing the segment where they were going to cover the story about Gov. Dan's commnents and said something to the effect that Dr. Dean had made some 'pretty strong commnents again' and asked, "Has he gone too far?"

Obviously, they are going to milk the "Dean Scream" for all it's worth. That is what this goofy comment was harking back to, I'm sure. All the media snotty faces try really hard to knock Dr. Dean ALL THE TIME. Why does she think Dean has "gone too far" and what right does she have to express that opinion as a "journalist"... gone to far for what? BucshCo's estimation? Ack, these people! :puke: :grr:

[Wordie]

212. Interesting. I'm liking her less and less. I saw a different segment,

I think it was yesterday, where Miles O'Brien was talking at length about the ongoing problems in NO, and she just stiffly sat there, giving him this forced-looking semi-smile and not saying anything. And then when he paused (it had been a pretty lengthy statement), she said (paraphrasing) "Alrightandnowfortheweather..." as if she just couldn't wait to get off the topic. I didn't like it.

[longship]

117. Is he a Man or is he a Cow?

Wait! He's both a Man and a Cow.

[H2O Man]

125. He's not a man

in any meaningful way.

[gordianot]

120. Governor Dean is right. The Neo-Con experiment. "Oil Colonialism"

The invasion of Iraq is something new "Oil Colonialism". When Saddam invaded Kuwait he started the concept. George W. Bush stole Saddam's idea in turn invaded Iraq. When George W. Bush land falls the invasion will be by creditors collecting American debt, or economic collapse (Soviet style?) and not Islamic terrorist.

[Clara T]

152. There is nothing new about the invasion of Iraq

To say that "When Saddam invaded Kuwait he started the concept" (of "Oil Colonialism?) is a total lack of understanding and knowledge of the history in the Middle East and Iraq in particular as a focal point of "Oil Colonialism". If you are saying in some way that Saddam gave the idea of colonialism to the very colonialists that put him in power to ensure the oil would flow, as it does in Saudi Arabia with the US supported Saudi regime, to the West you are off the mark. That savage colonialism began before Saddam was born.


Oil in Iraq: The Byzantine Beginnings

By Dr. Ferruh Demirmen
Global Policy Forum
April 25, 2003

Part I: The Quest for Oil

The U.S. is playing today roughly the same role with respect to Iraq’s oil riches that Britain did early last century. History has a habit of repeating itself, albeit with different nuances and different actors. In this two-part series, we shall review the intricacies of oil-related events in Iraq through the 1950’s.

<snip>

Discovery of oil in 1908 at Masjid-i Suleiman in Iran – an event that changed the fate of the Middle East – gave impetus to quest for oil in Mesopotamia. Oil pursuits in Mesopotamia were concentrated in Mosul, one of three provinces or “vilayets” constituting Iraq under the Ottoman rule. Mosul was the northern province, the other two being Baghdad (in the middle) and Basra (in the south) provinces. Foreign geologists visited the area under the disguise of archeologists.

For a good part of the last century, interests of national governments were closely linked with the interests of oil companies, so much so that oil companies were de facto extensions of foreign-office establishments of the governments. The latter actively lobbied on behalf of the oil companies owned by their respective nationals. The oil companies, in return, would guarantee oil supply to respective governments – preferably at a substantial discount.

This symbiotic relationship manifested itself superbly when Turkish Petroleum Company (TPC), founded in 1911 and named as such in 1912 to exploit Mosul oil, was reorganized in March 1914 at a meeting held in Foreign Office in London where British and German diplomats sat next to executives of British and German banks and British and Dutch oil companies. Notwithstanding its name, TPC did not have Turkish participation. At that time World War I had not broken out yet, and Germans were welcome at TPC.

<snip>

Lord Curzon argued that the policy of His Majesty’s Government on Mosul was not in any way related to oil, that instead it was guided by the desire to protect interests of Iraqi people consistent with its mandatory obligations, that he had never spoken to an oil magnate or an oil concessionaire regarding Mosul oil, but that a company called TPC had obtained a concession from the Ottoman government before the war that his government had concluded was valid, that his government and TPC had no monopolistic designs on Iraqi oil, and that the Iraqis would be the chief beneficiaries of oil exploitation in Iraq. He added that Turkey would benefit as well.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2003/0425byzantine.htm

[gordianot]

159. Reviving Colonialism this blatant is a new development.

Just when you thought outright land grabs were relegated to a bygone century. Yes the current Middle East map is drawn based on British colonial ambitions, and the new map may be drawn on Saudi-American colonial ambitions (and not Iraqi).

State Sponsored Colonialism should be equal to State Sponsored Terrorism.

You have oil you are not safe from American Corporate Oil Colonialism or Cheney's secret energy policy.

[democrank]

122. Would somebody please define win?

Will we "win" after we kill every single Iraqi male over the age of twelve? After 3,000 of our soldiers are dead? 5,000, 58,000? After we take over their oilfields? After we kill half the civilian population? After we drop enough white phosphorus? After The Crusade?
After we`ve gone bankrupt? After we have torture planes flying 24/7?
After we`ve installed enough McDonalds and Taco Bells?

[H2O Man]

131. Thank you.

Well said!

[wiggs]

202. Definition doesn't matter.

Infamous quote from Anonymous Bush senior advisor:

"The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'"

We'll know we've won when the administration tells us. Sometime soon after the upcoming elections, Bush will announce that Iraq has had successful elections (regardless of whether or not they were), that troops will start coming home (even though many will be left behind to guard our permanent bases), that our goals have been met (even though we don't know what the goals are), and that our courageous military has given us a victory. Around that time the administration may even pull Bin Laden or Zarqawi out of its ass.

Most people will be so happy.

Renditions, Abu Ghraib, white phosphorous, 8.8 billion missing, Fallujah, Chalabi, WMD, DSM, and Plame will be old news...at least we'll be told that. And many will echo it. New misdeeds in Iraq will be on page 24 of your local newspaper, for one day.

The victory will be an illusion of course, just as everything else is. But it may be an effective illusion because we haven't built a strong, durable, logical case RIGHT NOW. I see Dean doing something this week. I see Kerry doing something last week. I saw Murtha doing something the week before. And then Reid before that. They take turns, then disappear. They jab but don't throw the right cross. They rope-a-dope for 5 rounds, do some jabbing in the 6th so the fans get excited, then rope-a-dope some more...land an uppercut, then rope-a-dope some more. Never finish. Never fully frame what is going on. Never fully expose the reality underneath the veneer of misinformation and spin.

We are missing important opportunities to expose the reality of this administration on a continuing, ongoing, unified basis. This should be easy, facing the worst administration ever. But it's getting away from us...they're getting away with it.

We therefore will let them tell us when we have a victory in Iraq.

[pinto]

129. Great quote from Barak..."there's no way to win an occupation". That is

the point. And, despite Mancow's absurdist rant, I think it's a point that more and more Americans are willing to admit...and the embarrassment that is the Bush Administration is no longer just the unspoken family secret. People are talking....

[H2O Man]

133. A reminder .....

Please call your elected representatives today, and demand that they work towards withdrawing US troops from Iraq. Thank you.

[radio4progressives]

135. Even Senator Kerry's comments are now being twisted and distorted

Of late I have not been known to be a defender of much of Senator's Kerry's public remarks in interviews on the matter of the war in iraq. But this morning i am compelled to voice my outrage with Commentator Paul Harvey, whose radio commentary is featured on a local am radio station each morning and at noon (KGO).

Harvey took Sen.Kerry's statements (made in an interview with CBS' FACE the Nation Bob Scheiffer this past Sunday regarding certain tactical procedures our troops are faced to be involved with in urban warfare)and twisted them, essentially accusing Kerry as accusing our troops acting like terrorists, by taking issue with any notion that our troops might be viewed as terrorists in the eyes of Iraqis.

Kerry didn't say our troops are terrorists, and though it might be implied in Senator Kerry's remarks, the issue goes to the core of why we are not "winning" the hearts and minds of the Iraqi, and apparently Paul Harvey has an issue with looking at any of this through the eyes of the occupied.

The remarks Paul Harvey has issue with are below, but Harvey does not include the full context, nor does he include the full quote in this morning's rant against Senator Kerry.


A transcript of Harvey's comments do not seem to be available on Harvey's website: http://www.paulharvey.com/
nor does it seem to be available at KGO's site http://www.kgoam810.com/home.asp

But here is Senator Kerry's quote being distorted in RW media, as shown in Face the Nation transcript:


Sen: Kerry: ... (snip)

"You've got to begin to transfer authority to the Iraqis. And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of the night, terrorzing kids and chioldren, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the-of-the historical customary religious customs.. Whehter you like it or not...

Schieffer: Yea

Sen. Kerry: ...Iraqis should be doing that. And after all of these two and half years, with all of the talk of 210,000 people trained, there just is no excuse for not transferring more of that authority."

(snip)

full text of transcript:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_120405.pdf

pages 4, 5

edited my remarks for better clarity, grammatical and spelling errors.

[second edition]

137. Yeah, all the Repub talk shows and radio shows received their

talking points yesterday, along with the old tape of his Vietnam testimony. I think we need to call attention to the fact that what Kerry brings up is a serious perception problem that our soldiers have in Iraq and puts their lives in further danger along with further eroding the Iraqi's trust in America. They are avoiding the real issues by trying to change the subject. Kerry, has actually been very supportive of the soldiers and their families and has sponsored and co-sponsored legislation to help them out. He has also been an outspoken critic of the lack of equipment the soldiers have been given in order to protect themselves by this so called soldier supporting administration.

[H2O Man]

139. Good points.

It could back-fire on the republicans: if people take the time to listen to the old tapes of Kerry's Vietnam testimony, they are going to hear the truth. I always liked that John Kerry .... I wish we would see more of him in Washington!

And you are right .... he is talking about the things needed to really support the individual soldiers and their families. The democrats are the "pro-military" party.

[radio4progressives]

149. Yes, that was the John Kerry I so admired and was loyal to.

That part of him is now coming through a bit now and we need to actively defend it and nurture it.

[radio4progressives]

147. I agree with you. On this Kerry must be vigorously defended

Obviously I have my issues with Kerry, not only because of his vote but the feeling of betrayal is still raw.

But on this matter, we need to actively support his statements and vigorously defend it - as activists.

You all know what that means, "it's a lot of hard work" <g> debunking the propaganda - but that's a burden we have to bear in this era of right wing media.

[madrchsod]

140. all this shit over mancow?

jesus h christ i really can`t believe it. mancow? he`s one big fuck`n asshole and his radio show was so sick even i couldn`t stand to listen.oh well i`ve got to change the brakes on my car......

[NYCGirl]

142. Not only Mancow, but it seems that Bush is all over it too...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5528496&mesg_id=5528496

[madrchsod]

145. mc cain said this morning

on npr that it was the duty of the congress to question. he said that was the failure in the veitnam war-the congress did not do their duty in questioning the war.

[Rainscents]

141. Dean is right!!! Here is reason why...

French tried it, Russian tried it, British tried it and now we think, we can win in Iraq is out of our mind! These people know how to fight gorilla war and they will fight as long as it take. These people been fighting in war for thousands years and they will continue to do so!

[Elbee]

143. The Vietnam and Iraq thing

The tragedy of Vietnam is magnified immensely this time round in Iraq. An incredible film entitled Sir! No Sir! has just premiered in Vancouver, Canada. I was thoroughly inspired by this film and want to make the following points about it. I think these facts speak for themselves

1) This film is made by US citizens, but financed by non-US sources. The filmmakers are still struggling to pay off the debts incurred in making the film. Interesting that no significant funding was available from US sources.

2) The film won the Documentary Audience Award at the L.A. Film Festival.

3) The makers bill the film as "The story that's been suppressed." Specifically, the film depicts the Vietnam Vets as the driving force behind the entire anti-war movement during the late 60s and early 70s. The truth of the movement has been engineered from memory, starting with the famous, but unsubstantiated claim that an antiwar protester spat on a returning vet. The corporate media is complicit in producing this amnesia of the truth of the Vietnam era and culpable in spreading the lies which took the US to war with Iraq.

The lessons of the 60s movement for the present war in Iraq is that the current US anti-war movement lacks the magnitude of the contribution of the vets. With a population controlled by fear and the Homeland Security laws, the USA today is a very different place than it was in the 60s. It is a lot more difficult for the vets to organize now as they did then.

Some of us in Canada are struggling to convince our government to grant sanctuary to Americans who refuse to go to Iraq. The draft dodgers and deserters who came to Canada during the Vietnam War, and stayed, have made a significant contribution to Canadian Society. Many of them are now keen to join with other Canadians in helping this new generation of war resisters and the Canadian anti-war movement is strongly committed to this.

Perhaps a strong contingent of anti-war Iraq vets in Canada would have the freedom to inspire the opposition within the army that was crucial to ending the Vietnam War.

As a parting thought: If Nixon and his ilk had been tried for the war crimes they were guilty of, perhaps Bush would not have been so easily tempted to get involved in a war of aggression. I can only hope that this time round, the truth of what is going on will come out in time to motivate the citizenry of the US to put their leaders on trial for the war crimes that they have committed.

[radio4progressives]

146. MrBenchley and I do not agree but He's Correct to say the movement

did not end the Viet Nam war.

That evil war continued for almost a decade after the ant-war movement started - and our efforts did not bring it to an end.

What brought it to an end, was Nixon's Watergate Impeachment.

The last of the troops to come home and end to Congressional funding occurred sometime around 1974/1975 if memory serves. And then we had Viet Nam refugees by the boatloads during Ford and Carter's administrations.

In a way, we're still fighting that war here at home.

Because we in the anti-war movement, never really accomplished our mission in making sure that our foreign policy would never ever again be about pre-emptive invasions, colonialization and occupations under the guise of defeating (insert the bogeyman of the day) "over there, instead of over here".

[MrBenchley]

155. To pretend there was "just" one thing that needed to be done

I find offensive to those of us who were there.

"our efforts did not bring it to an end. "
And to some extent, I fear that was because the tactics some used alienated many Americans who would otherwise have been sympathetic to the cause....a mistake currently not being widely made.

The antiwar movement in those days never connected with moderate America...so far with this war it has, and it needs to stay in touch there and not move to alienate anyone with thoughtless words or actions.

[Elbee]

161. The antiwar movement connected with the rest of the world

In ’68 we (students) occupied the Admin building at the University of Cape Town in South Africa because the Admin had caved in to pressure from the Apartheid Government and rescinded the appointment of a black lecturer. We were demanding that the admin let the government do its own dirty work instead of doing it for them.

What inspired us to take over this building for 10 days until the cops finally got us out of there: The civil rights and antiwar movements in the US. In South Africa we didn't make a clear distinction between the two movements. We were just inspired by the overall spirit of fighting for peace and justice that emanated from the US at the time.

[MrBenchley]

164. But not, for the most part, mainstream America....

"We were just inspired by the overall spirit of fighting for peace and justice that emanated from the US at the time."
I'm glad to hear that...you might also recall, from that year, the abortive Czech uprising, the unrest in France, Italy and Poland, and, unfortunately, the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guard in China.

[burythehatchet]

162. This thread makes no sense whatsoever

only because I can't read half the posts :)

but guess what Dr. Dean has succeeded in doing.....Framing the debate. I watched a Faux News segment for about 30 minutes earlier today where a canned audience was led through a thorough beating of Dr. Dean. It was truly horrifying and I had to turn it off. But as each panelist and audience member took turns whacking Dr. Dean, I smiled because the debate has been framed: Now the issue is whether we can win, which effectively counters the "victory" marketing message that has been spewing out of the neo-fascist party. Point - Dean.

[G_j]

165. very good point

I think many, many people suspect he is right although they are afraid to voice this. By all means, let the national discussion continue!

[H2O Man]

169. That's it exactly.

Bush can't even define what "win" would mean. He comes out with his usual weak shit about democracy, and then we hear about his wanting to bomb Al Jazeera's headquarters. The corporate media pretends like that isn't real -- but we read "The War on Al Jazeera" by Jeremy Scahill (pages 6-8 of the 12-19-05 edition), and we see how the administration violently attacks the free press there. And we read about the buying of articles in the Iraqi media, something even phonier than the offspring of Judith Miller and Bob Woodward. How in the hell are they in favor of democracy over there, when the violently attack the real free press, and subvert other attempts to report the news?

I'm sure some of our "centrist" democrats are uncomfortable with calling the administration on that. They are probably uncomfortable with Jeremy Scahill, too .... after all, he reports on Democracy Now and in The Nation. But those "centrist" democrats have lost the respect of a lot of real democrats, when they refuse to admit that they helped get us caught in the middle of Dick Cheney's lies.

[burythehatchet]

176. Just turned to CNN and they're discussing whether

the war can be won. My fear is the acts of desperation that are on the horizon. I truly fear that more than anything...oh, except bird flu because the CNN teaser for an upcoming segment is titled "Killer Flu - Just a breath away". I'm not optimistic.

[H2O Man]

180. In a very real sense

the war has been won by forces outside of Iraq. I think that Iran is becoming more firmly entrenched as the strongest Islamic regional power. It is worth noting that the neocons in the administration believed that Iran would not be a significant influence in the war -- that brief one they planned. They told others that after democracy took hold in Iraq, that it would happen in Iran. Very insightful.

But even more than Iran, the more radical segments of Islam have gained strength. The longer we continue the Bush policy, especially if we increase tensions as I think you are hinting could happen, we lose.

When Martin spoke out against the war in Vietnam, at the Riverside Church, he said that the nation risked something bigger than a loss of a war .... that the nation was at risk of losing its soul. The "centrists" who spoke from comfortable positions, where there was no risk to their children, denounced King. Of course. But he was right then, and no more so than when he said the country had to make huge internal changes, or the same war would be fought in some other nation in the next generation.

[burythehatchet]

183. Exactly. General Clark made that important point

in his NYTimes editorial. Further, with Iran's increasing ties to Russia and India, I believe we have essentially hastened the end of the short lived American empire. I cannot say whether that is all bad.

[Beetwasher]

181. Give That Man a CEEEEEGAR!!!!!

You've got it exactly.

The discussion is now very firmly on the table. Can we win? Is it like Vietnam?

Dean knows EXACTLY what he's doing. He knows EXACTLY what he was saying.

[bklyncowgirl]

194. This is vintage Dean.

1. Throw out a controversial statement.

2. Wait for the other side to go ballistic--it won't take long.

3. Get the talking heads on TV, talk radio hosts and groupies, not to mention every joker on the Internet arguing aboutit.

4. Go on TV and reiterate what you said before, challenge the other side to prove you wrong, let them tie themselves up in knots.

5. Move the issue a few yards down the road.

He does it every time. Sometimes his timing's a bit off--a few days before the New Hampshire Primary was probably not the best time from a political standpoint to proclaim that Saddam's capture had not made America safer--even though it was true. But he just threw the ball in Bush's court and the talking heads are now asking "Can we win? and What would "Victory" look like."

[Me.]

195. Good Analysis n/t

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

166. Only in Bush's America could telling the truth be referred to as a SKILL.

One that most of the GOP has yet to master.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

172. And I call you a troll. NT

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYCGirl]

174. Yuck it up. Enjoy your short stay here. NT

[H2O Man]

177. zell cow! n/t

[GumboYaYa]

167. Yep, people can't handle the truth...but

someone has to tell it.

Way to go Dr. Dean.

[Peace Patriot]

191. There is a way to "win" in Iraq, and the path to that success is...

...humility. First of all. And also generosity, love of humanity, desire for the common good, peaceful intentions, and an understanding of sorrow, forgiveness and recompense.

It takes a big country to apologize. It took us more than a half a century with regard to Native Americans. It may take us as much with regard to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. But why not do it now, in Iraq? Before it gets worse.

The world would fall at our feet, weeping for joy! America has recovered its soul!

And then planning, here at home: Conversion to alternative energy in five years. We can do it. All we need is "Man on the Moon" VISION and determination, which we have in abundance--untapped.

And a big world peace conference of leaders and humanitarian groups--to de-fuse the tinderbox of the Middle East, and strengthen the world's commitment to ending war, ending terrorism, and eliminating torture and unjust imprisonment.

And a simultaneous world religious conference, to work on the problem of Islamic unrest, and religion being used as a weapon.

And a resolve, once and for all, to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction, and create a just and peaceful world.

-----------

South Africa made a peaceful transition to rule by the majority--the native black population--by means of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, whereby anyone guilty of atrocities, if he confessed honestly--a first step toward recompense--he would not be prosecuted.

I think we need the same thing with regard to Iraq, Aghanistan and the Bush regime--countrywide and worldwide. Truth. And reconciliation.

The crimes are too large, and the potential for destruction so immense, that it cannot be solved by conventional means--warfare; endless, savage revenge; more weapons; more greed; politics, or normal diplomacy. Nor can we afford a cycle of recriminations, and prosecutions, and scandals, and yet more political bitterness and lies, in the U.S. Our planet doesn't have that kind of time. Global warming is upon us. We MUST find a new path.

"You say I'm a dreamer.
But I'm not the only one.
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one."
--John Lennon

[Elbee]

193. The Truth that must be accepted

Peace Patriot, you've said it all. It's that simple, but that's also why it's not going to happen without a massive outpouring of popular opposition to the status quo.

While we are busy struggling with the war on terrorism issues, the real threat to our security, the impending complete breakdown of our planet's ability to support life, is being approached with less than half-hearted effort. All of our discussions become moot when we are in danger of extinction. And the ruling elite think they can escape the consequences so they are not likely to attend to our most pressing problem.

[MelissaB]

196. Hi, Elbee! Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Elbee]

208. Thanks, MellissaB

Thoughtful of you to say so.

[young_at_heart]

197. "They" want us to bleed to death?

al-Zawahiri evidently knows we are between a rock and a hard place. What will it take for "pundits" to recognize the truth? How many lives ruined?

[AuntiBush]

198. And MSNBC Touted Dean Tonight, too.

When Tweety touted, along w/a guest Dean as did CNN tonight, that was IT for me! I will never, ever watch CNN & MSNBC ever again.

I'm fed-up to here with those that speak badly of more then half the population, namely the Democrats, especially Dr. Dean, a man I emphatically trust to run my party of choice.

Thanks H2O MAN for reminding me of books I've been meaning to buy & read: Seymour Hersch's 2004 book "Chain of Command" (Harper) and Michael Scheuer, in "Imperial Hubris," (Brassey's, 2004).

It's time all of us stop bashing our Democrats. They DO have meaning and stand for a whole lot more then the way they're being treated by the MSN as hard as they work for all of us, especially during these extremely trying times.

Another excellent post by the H20 MAN. I'm grateful for his postings.

:thumbsup:

[Guaranteed]

200. Dean's just a year or two in front of the curve again.

Just make him President.

[Darranar]

203. The US has already suffered a catastrophic failure in Iraq.

None of the objectives have been fulfilled.

The "Bush Doctrine", affirmed through the Iraq War, has not cowed the world as intended. Much to the contrary, it has aligned rebellious portions of the global system with each other in opposition. It is a severe blow to an already receding US hegemony.

The oil is not under US control at the moment, and the resistance is preventing attempts to make it so.

The Shi'a leadership is not going along with the US plans, as was intended; it currently holds the cards, and to attempt to dislodge it would be suicide.

Iran will definitely hold great influence over any eventual government of Iraq, likely more than that of the US.

The resistance has not been quelled and will not be quelled until withdrawal.

Immense resources have been wasted, resources that could have been used more more effectively in securing US domination elsewhere.

The US military is trapped in the quagmire of an arrogant "stay the course" mentality and has been humiliated before the world.

The current leadership has been shown to both the international community and the domestic public to be a corrupt and incompetent gang incapable of effectively projecting their power.

Morally, the war has been an atrocious tragedy from the start. It is wrong for the government of one nation to impose its will upon the people of another, especially when doing so involves immense and brutal violence.

Both strategically and morally, then, the US has essentially already lost, and Dean's statement is quite accurate.

[Elbee]

209. The catastrophic failure of Imperialist ideology

"Immense resources have been wasted, resources that could have been used more more effectively in securing US domination elsewhere."

I hope that this is not what the Democratic Underground is all about—more efficient US Imperialism.

Back to John Lennon:

Imagine if half of the money that's been spent visiting devastation on the hapless Iraqi's was spent on housing, education and job training, medical services and other necessities to comfort the afflicted within the US—like better levees around New Orleans a few years before Katrina.

Imagine if the other half of those billions and billions were given as direct aid (not corporate investment opportunities for arms dealers and their ilk) to the afflicted in the rest of the world. That is to say to the people of the world not the corrupt governments that the US has propped up all these years.

What I imagine as a result of the money (just the money that's been spent on this Iraq catastrophe) being spent this way is:

New Orleans would still be the there. There'd be fewer right wing radical fundamentalists and the US would be a safer place to be.

The US would not be seen as the rogue country that many in the world see it as. The War on Terrorism would actually have a chance of succeeding. In short, we'd all be living in a happier, safer world.

The real catastrophe of the Iraq debacle is the missed opportunity of spending the money wisely. The stunning irony is that people who claim to follow Jesus have chosen exactly the opposite of what Jesus is reputed to have taught about love and swords.

[H2O Man]

210. Very true.

I agree 100%

[Darranar]

211. I am against US imperialism on principle.

But the Iraq War was not about my opinion, it had certain objectives. In evaluating success or failure those objectives must be taken into account, not the objectives I would prefer.

Even if the objectives had been fulfilled the war would still have been immoral.

[H2O Man]

213. Dominance in other areas

does not equal US imperialism. I had assumed that you meant it in a positive way. I agree with your posts here as well.

[Darranar]

215. True. I have no problem with US domination in health care

or in fighting poverty, or in reducing prejudice - assuming, of course, that such domination is assured by improving US policy and not destroying other countries.

I meant it in the sense of US imperial domination, though.