Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why Have So Many Bush Administration Enemies Died Untimely Deaths?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:39 PM
Original message
Why Have So Many Bush Administration Enemies Died Untimely Deaths?
First I need to say right off the bat that any or all of the deaths that I discuss here may be just what they have been officially found to be: suicides or accidents. And we need to be very careful that we dont overstate the case as to what these suicides and accidents PROVE, lest we be considered conspiracy theorists at a time when we are trying to get people to take seriously the dangerous state of our election system, as well as the many crimes of the Bush Administration. Nevertheless, it seems to me that there is a disturbing pattern here and we would do well to consider it.

I doubt that many DUers would find it very difficult to believe that the Bush administration sometimes has its domestic enemies assassinated. Most or all of us believe that the Bush Administration led us into a war on false pretenses (though perhaps a minority believes that at least they had decent motives). And the good majority of us believe that its plans for preventing and dealing with the recent human tragedy in New Orleans and surrounding areas were so lacking in effectiveness and enthusiasm that at best they should be characterized as willful negligence. Are these things less bad than assassinating ones domestic enemies? I dont think so. But the latter does seem scarier in some ways, perhaps because of what it says about the power that our government currently holds. So lets consider some of these cases:


J. H. Hatfield

J. H. Hatfield wrote a scathing biography of George W. Bush, called Fortunate Son, which was published while Bush was running for President in 2000, following numerous aggressive attempts to prevent its publication. In addition to detailing many of the well known (to DUers) unethical and probably illegal business dealings by Bush in the 1990s, the book also alleged that Bush was found guilty of a cocaine use charge which was expunged from his record. I read his book with great interest in early 2001, and shortly thereafter I was dismayed to hear of Hatfields suicide.

This link discusses Hatfields death in June 2001, which was ruled a suicide, the result of a drug overdose in a hotel room. There was no autopsy. Suicide notes were found by the bedside, which Hatfields wife identified as being in his handwriting. Other evidence arguing for suicide includes the fact that Hatfield was having severe financial problems, and had just been charged with credit card fraud (which appears to have been a set-up).
Evidence arguing against suicide includes the fact that Hatfield had made public his receipt of death threats against him, his wife, and his daughter, from Bush allies. According to Hatfield, he was told "If you value their lives, you'd better back off from this edition." In addition, the lady who checked him in at the hotel noted that he was "pleasant and smiling" and "made conversation and had no visible signs of distress".
Hatfields publisher, Sander Hicks, initially accepted the suicide verdict. However, more recently, in January 2003, he announced that he was making the suicide notes available to forensics experts, to compare with handwriting samples that Hicks had acquired through the Freedom of Information Act, in order to arrive at an independent verdict in the case. I could not find any more recent information on this.


Cliff Baxter

Cliff Baxter was a former Vice Chairman of Enron, and one of the few high level Enron executives who had tried to prevent Enrons illegal activities, which resulted in the fall of the company and the disappearance of the life savings of many of its employees, in one of the largest corporate fraud cases in U.S. history. At the time of his death he was about to testify before the House Energy and Commerce Committee about the scandal at Enron. It was felt by many that his testimony could be devastating to top Enron officials and might even provide a vital link between Enron and the Bush Administration.

Baxter, 43, was found shot to death in his car on the morning of January 25, 2002, near his home in Sugar Land, Texas. As this article explains, local authorities quickly called his death a suicide, without a serious investigation or even an autopsy. But hours later, the local Justice of the Peace, Jim Richard, reversed his decision not to order an autopsy, citing intense public interest.

Baxter was not known to have depression or any other mental problem at the time. He was a multi-millionaire, with an apparently happy family life. Furthermore, he had spoken with a friend recently about the fact that he felt he needed a body guard.

This article discusses the autopsy findings and provides a copy of them. It notes that although the autopsy states suicide as the cause of death, no evidence is given to support that conclusion. It also goes into detail about how the physical findings are much more suggestive of murder than of suicide. And finally, it notes that Baxter would have had no need for ratshot, the ammunition used to kill him, and that ratshot is the perfect murder ammunition, since it leaves no evidence capable of matching the gun to the ammunition.


Paul Wellstone

Paul Wellstone was the greatest thorn in the side of the Bush Administration of any U.S. Senator. Had he lived it was thought likely that, starting in 2003, he would have initiated a serious Senate investigation into the September 2001 terrorist attacks against our country. He died in a small plane crash just weeks prior to the 2002 mid-term elections, as it was becoming evident that he would win a third term to the U.S. Senate. It was thought at the time that a Wellstone victory in Minnesota would result in Democratic control of the Senate for the next two years (which would have been the case had Max Cleland not been defeated in Georgia).

According to this article, None of the typical causes of a small plane accidentengine failure, icing, pilot errorappear to have been involved. Evidence suggests that both engines were running when the plane hit the ground. The plane had passed through the icing altitude without apparent difficulty, and it was cleared for approach to the airport. Both pilots were very experienced and skilled. The Beechcraft model in which Wellstone was flying has an excellent safety record. Though visibility was limited, it was well above the minimum required.

There had been no problems until shortly before the crash. Witnesses say that the plane hit the ground at an almost vertical angle, and the crash was followed by an extreme post-crash fire.


Raymond Lemme

Raymond Lemme was the official from the Florida Inspector Generals office who was in the midst of investigating the election rigging charges of whistleblower Clint Curtis when he died. Curtis main allegation was that he was asked to write a computer program that would be capable of switching votes from one candidate to another, and which would be undetectable. Curtis also claims that Lemme had told him shortly before his death that he had tracked the corruption all the way to the top.

Lemme was found dead in a Valdosta, Georgia, Knights Inn motel room on July 1, 2003. His arm was slashed twice with a razor blade, near the left elbow. The Brad Blog has thoroughly investigated this case and put forth several reasons to believe that it was not a suicide, as has been ruled by the Valdosta police, including:

1. Evidence includes two motel receipts an unsigned check-in receipt dated June 29, 2003, and a signed check-out receipt dated June 30, 2003, 6:54 a.m. Yet Lemme was found dead in the hotel on July 1, the day AFTER he apparently checked out. The police claim that the check-out date on the receipt is wrong, and ascribe the incorrect date to machine error, but refused to provide additional detail on that.

2. The initial police report stated: "a defect in the camera flash memory cards resulted in no usable photographs. Photographs will not be submitted with this report." Yet good quality photographs of the crime scene, some showing Lemme in the bath tub where he is said to have killed himself, and which were previously said not to have existed, later showed up. The legitimacy of the photographs was confirmed by the Valdosta police.

3. Inconsistency of police report and photographs: An official report by Detective Shannon Floyd states that there was no sign of foul play, and that there was no blood on the towel on which a black belt (apparently used as a tourniquet) was found. Yet, the pictures clearly show blood on the towel and severe bruising on the right side of Lemmes neck.

4. When Brad Blog attempted to talk with Detective Floyd about her inconsistent findings, they were told that she no longer works for the Department, and the police refused to tell them how they could reach her.

5. After re-opening the case (late 04 or early 05), the case was quickly closed after talking with the Florida Department of Transportation. The Valdosta police refused to comment on why the Florida DOT should have a say in when they close a death investigation in Georgia.

6. Lemmes work colleagues and family all agree that there were no previous indications that Lemme wanted to die.

7. Nobody knows why Lemme was in Georgia, about 80 miles north of Tallahassee, where he lived and worked. No autopsy was performed, whereas had the death occurred in Florida, an autopsy would have been required.


David Kelly

Dr. David Kelly was a microbiologist and an expert in weapons of mass destruction. He had already blown the whistle regarding the exaggeration of British intelligence reports on the possibility of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, as the Bush Administration was trying to make the case for invading Iraq. This DU article speculates that the Bush Administration may have had yet a great deal more to fear from Dr. Kellys telling what he knew of the Administrations devious plans for building a case for war in Iraq.

On July 18th, 2003, Kelly was found dead in a secluded lane in Harrowdown Hill, with his left wrist slit. His death was ruled a suicide, but Jim Rarey feels that there were many red flags that indicated otherwise, including:

1. Kelly was initially found propped up against a tree, and yet medical evidence indicated that he died on his back.

2. The ulnar artery was severed, but not the radial artery. This would be extremely difficult for a person to accomplish by himself.

3. Two paramedics at the scene said that there was surprisingly little blood for an artery having been severed, yet the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsy testified that there were copious amounts of blood at the scene.

4. The forensic pathologist said that bruises and scratches on Kellys body were due to stumbling around in heavy underbrush, yet no heavy underbrush was found at the scene of the death.

5. The day before his death, Kelly communicated with Judith Miller of the NY Times, talking about many dark actors playing games.


Ted Westhusing

Colonel Ted Westhusing, one of the Armys leading scholars of military ethics, volunteered to serve in Iraq in order to enable him to better be able to teach his students, as described in this article. A few weeks before he died, he had received an anonymous complaint that a private contractor was cheating the U.S. government and committing human rights violations, including participating in the killing of Iraqi military personnel and civilians. Westhusing reported all this, but an official investigation found his allegations to be unfounded. Westhusing was very upset about these findings.

Shortly thereafter, in June of 2005, Westhusing was found dead in a trailer at a military base in Baghdad, with a gunshot wound to his head. The death was ruled a suicide. At the time he was the highest ranking U.S. officer to die in Iraq.

But Westhusings family and friends were not pleased with the suicide verdict. Shortly before his death he had expressed fear of being alone. His family and friends were troubled that he died without a bodyguard, surrounded by the same contractors he suspected of wrongdoing. They wonder why the manager who discovered Westhusing's body and picked up his weapon was not tested for gunpowder residue. He's the last person who would commit suicide, said a graduate school colleague of his.


Three more Bush biographers and six microbiologists associated with the anthrax hoax

While I was researching the Hatfield death I came across the fact that, with Gary Webbs death in 2004, this was the fourth suicide by a researcher who had a detailed understanding of the structure and function of the Bush crime family. This section of my thread differs from the above sections in that these are very brief accounts, and two of the additional three Bush researchers who are discussed here conducted research involving Bush Senior, but apparently had little or nothing to do with our current president.

Gary Webb, the investigative reporter who broke the story about the CIA's involvement with crack cocaine dealers in Southern California in the 1980s, was found dead in Sacramento in December 2004, from a gunshot wound to the head. The death was ruled a suicide. This article notes that Webb had been receiving death threats and discusses the impossibility of a suicide victim shooting himself in the face twice.

This article discusses the deaths of Mark Lombardi and Danny Casalaro. Mark Lombardi was found dead in his loft, from hanging, in March 2000.

Danny Casolaro was writing a book, 'The Octopus', which was meant to be an explosive expose of the scandals surrounding the presidency of George Bush Sr., when he was found dead in August in a hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia, in 1991. He had bragged to friends that he would bring back the head of the Octopus. Both his wrists were slashed seven times, and a suicide note was found nearby. The only existing manuscript of the book he was writing, as well as his notes, were missing.

The same article notes six dead microbiologists connected with the 2001 anthrax hoax. The article notes that after the source of the anthrax (the strain that killed several American citizens and was also sent to the offices of Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy) was traced to a Pentagon lab, microbiologists started dropping off like flies. Five died between 12 November and 12 December 2001 of suicides or heart attacks, and one was bashed to death with a baseball bat in a high-security lab.


Putting this in perspective

I must reiterate that we need to be very careful that we do not overstate the case for what might be construed as a pattern of assassinations committed by our current Administration against its domestic enemies. For example, one article, commenting on the odds of so many Bush researcher deaths actually being a suicide, calculated the odds against that to be about one in ten quadrillion. Thats patently ridiculous, as those calculations assume that all four of these men were the only ones who were involved in researching Bush family crimes, and that they all occurred in the same year, which they didnt.

What ARE the odds of so many suicides or violent accidental deaths occurring to enemies of the Bush Administration since, lets say, George W. Bushs inauguration? I am an epidemiologist, which means that I make my living by assessing the causes of injury and death, through statistical analysis of real life events. Yet, I can hardly begin to calculate what these odds are. I know that the suicide rate in this country is quite low: In men between the ages of 25 and 65 it is only about 17 to 20 cases per 100,000 population per year. But the main reason that I cant calculate the odds is that I dont know what to use as a denominator which would be the number of persons at risk of such a death (i.e., Bush Administration enemies) during this time period. So, in order to calculate the odds, I would have to have a list of, say, the top 10 or top 200 Bush Administration enemies since Bushs inauguration, and then see how many of them had died of violent deaths which were ruled suicides or accidents. And in putting together such a list, one would have to be careful not to be biased by existing knowledge of the death of these people.

I will end by giving one sample calculation. IF we assume that, of the 5 suicide deaths that I discuss in some detail in this thread (leaving out Senator Wellstone, since that was ruled an accident, not a suicide), all 5 of the individuals were among the top 100 persons whom the Bush Administration would have liked to see disappear, the odds against 5 of the top 100 Bush Administration enemies really dying of suicide over a five year period is about ten thousand to one, assuming that they were not related. If we further consider the facts that most of the victims had no known reason to commit suicide and did not seem at all suicidal, the investigations seemed so rushed and incomplete, the various evidence against suicide in these cases, the known ruthlessness of our current Administration, the likelihood that some people would have been too difficult to assassinate, and the possibility that I may have missed some additional top 100 deaths during this time period, the odds would become even more remote.

This looks like an ominous pattern to me.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Be careful what you print, or you may end up like them! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Dupe
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 04:09 PM by Time for change
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. I appreciate the compliment
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 04:08 PM by Time for change
I would like to think that I was important enough that they would want me to end up like them -- though I would be quite scared if I actually thought that they would consider me that important. I don't have any insider knowledge, like Kelly or Lemme or Baxter or Westhusan or Hatfield, nor power like Wellstone.

Anyhow, I'm not the least bit suicidal, so if I do get suicided I hope that someone will look into it. (I'm just saying that for extra protection) :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
55. Awesome Comeback!
suicide me too while your at it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
61. Do you think they will turn on their own?
One thing crossed my mind recently in that Andrew Card's plane suddenly had smoke in it but he was OK? Is it possible if the going gets tough over the Plame leak that some of 'them' will suddenly disappear?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. In my opinion
I think they would turn on anyone who they thought might pose a danger to them. I, like most DUers, believe that Bush and his handlers have no morals. A leader who would lie to his people about the reasons for going to war, when in fact the real reasons were purely self serving, would be capable of just about anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's very troubling, even if some of these deaths really were
what they were purported to be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. What about the journalists we "accidentally" killed in Iraq?
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 02:54 PM by IanDB1
That girl volunteer who was trying to create an offical tally of Iraqi civilian casualties?

The convoy of French hostages that had just been rescued?

Al Jazeera's office (in Baghdad?) that was bombed?

And what did his air crew do to George Bush Senior that caused him to abandon them to die?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. I don't have many details on those
Do you have any information on them or links that you think would be worth adding?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. this cabal has spent three (at least) generations
plotting to take over the world

do you think they'll shy away from murder to keep from being exposed?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. oh man we in deep doo doo
The people we have always been told to watch out for are the ones telling us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post
Nominated and bookmarked. Great job.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. suspicious activity in many presidencies
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 03:08 PM by savemefromdumbya
there has been suspicious activity in many presidencies in the USA. One thing to do if you do publish ominous stuff about those in control is ask your relatives to arrange a private autopsy (providing there is a body to autopsy). I wonder who had JFK shot?

:scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. I don't know who shot him
But I'm pretty sure I know who didn't shoot him: Lee Harvey Oswald. Funny you should mention the JFK assassination because I just recently posted something on that:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The thread was locked after 5 hours because one character vehemently disagreed with me about my statement that JFK was shot from the front (in the direction of the grassy knoll). He called me a liar and called several other people who agreed with me a liar, and then the thread was locked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. Didn't several people shoot him?
I remember seeing some documentary in England some years ago on that fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Yes
We know that he was hit at least two times. According to the doctors who treated him at Parkland hospital, those two bullets, one that went through his throat, and the one that killed him by going through his head, came from the front, in the approximate direction of the grassy knoll.

The Texas School Book Depository, where Oswald was said to have shot Kennedy, was behind him. Therefore, the two bullets that I mentioned above could not have come from Oswald.

On the other hand, there were also one or two other shots, and one or both of them may have come from the Book Depository. We don't know whether either of these shots hit Kennedy, and there was no definitive evidence that they did. Oswald might have shot one or both of these shots.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
78. ARRRRRGGGG!!!
OSWALD, AND ONLY OSWALD, KILLED JFK. There was a good show about this about a year ago (40th aniversary stuff) and there was tons of evidence that there was only 3 shots fired, all from the book depository. The first shot missed. the second went through Kenney's body and hit the governor. the third hit Kennedy in the back of the head (they also explained convincingly that the apearence of being shot in the front was a result of the 3rd shot, but I can't rememeber the details).

I get sick of conspiracy theories. :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Then maybe you can explain why ALL the doctors who saw him at
Parkland Hospital said he was shot twice from the front.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #78
91. Better Strap On A Barf Bag Sport
Because many if not most of us on DU not only believe these "theories" but when two or more of us agree on the information VIOLA they are no longer CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

Welcome. I think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #78
97. Thanks for the heads up...
For a moment there, I actually believed that at one point in history two or more people conspired to commit a crime and then subsequently tried to cover that crime up. I should stop questioning my republican overlords, they would never lie to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #78
142. Oh, for Pete's sake....
I suppose you believe that ridiculous single bullet theory? You shouldn't base your opinion on one documentary. I have read everything there is to read about the JFK assassination, and Oswald did not act alone. It is not a fucking theory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. amazing post, thank you. Does hunter thompson belong on the list?
peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
48. Thank you - that's a good point
My son suggested that I might want to include Hunter Thompson in this. Although he was a vigorous critic of Bush I'm not sure how big of a threat he posed, whereas I believe a case could be made that the six people that I discuss in some depth in my OP could have represented major threats to the Administration or their agenda. Also, I believe that there was reasonably good evidence of suicide in his case, though I don't remember precisely, and I know that many DUers suspected that Thompson was killed. But perhaps the biggest reason that I didn't include him was that I felt that my OP was approaching a size that was too large for most people to read.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #48
80. If I'm not mistaken..
his house in Colorado had certain Saudi royalty (Bandar?) for a neighbor..he talked about the phone lines getting crossed by mistake
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. I didn't remember that
Do you think he should be added to the list?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. Who knows? I certainly don't.
I wouldn't add him; there's not much evidence.
But nothing surprises me anymore.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/investing/20041101a2.a...

Bankrate: You are neighbors with Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador and longtime Bush family friend featured in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Hunter S. Thompson: I can see him from my front porch. He's been a pretty good neighbor; that counts for a lot out here. He will shoot some skeet now and then. I don't want to say anything really ugly about him. He's an enlightened plutocrat, I guess you call it. Michael Moore is dead right on that, and it's even worse than you think. Bandar. All kinds of roads cross out here. Networks and wires.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deja vu
http://www.zpub.com/un/un-bc-body.html

Are we just as paranoid as they are?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah, I thought about that too.
I thought they were crazy at the time (still do). Still, the suicides seem odd.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Seriously, I don't think that the article you refer to is comparable
The six people who I discuss in detail in this thread, with the possible exception of Westhusing, were all either very well known enemies of this administration or they were believed to have information that could do great damage to it.

The article that you refer to is quite a different matter IMO. It starts out with two well known people, but they were good friends of Clinton, for Christ sake. Another two are said to be "major players in Clinton fund raising organization", and another is said to be a "dear friend and trusted advisor" of Clintons. Another is said to "have ties to Whitewater". It doesn't seem to me that these are things that would put them high on Clinton's enemies list.

If people like Ken Star had committed suicide during his investigation, for example, then I'd put them in the same category as some of these people that I discuss in my OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. Reads just like the Clinton death list
People die. It happens no matter who your friends or enemies are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. Yes, people die
People get assassinated too, especially by ruthless rulers. And if you have powerful enemies you're more likely to be murdered, wouldn't you say?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
132. Do you have something other than inneundo here?
For Christ's fucking sake, considering that millions of people abhor the Bush Administration, is it really that surprising that some of them die?

But what the fuck, healthcare and poverty are simply way too fucking boring for some people around here. God forbid we all put ourselves to sleep focusing on irrelevant shit like those issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. The people I talk about in my post were not just people who
abhored the Bush Administration. They were all very likely a big threat to the Administration and its agenda.

You don't agree with that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
146. While that is true, it is also true that they said the same thing
about Clinton, and I think that he just happened to be President and know a lot of people, therefore increasing the number of people he knew that would happen to die.

But it's always good speculation, and very hard to prove any real correlation without solid hard evidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #146
149. The superficial parallel with Clinton is not very applicable at all
First of all, see my post # 27, and EOTE's posts #s 19 and 22, for starters.

The stuff they did with Clinton on this issue was patently absurd.

So because Clinton was accused of stuff that he didn't do, that means that we can't accuse anyone else of something similar, despite how much evidence there is?

Also, the people I talk about in this post were not just people that Bush knew, as is the case with those who try to make the case against Clinton (most of the people on that list had the most peripheral of associations with Clinton). The people that I talk about were people who had great potential to do serious harm to Bush and his Administration:

One (Lemme) was probably on the verge of exposing the 2004 election fraud. Another (Kelly) may have been on the verge of further exposures of the Administration's lies over going to war in Iraq (see link to another DU post, which explains this). Another (Westhusing) was probably about to expose severe abuses of contractors that the Administration had hired to work in Iraq - which would have been a big blow to the Administration's staying in Iraq. Another (Baxter) was thought to possibly be on the verge of exposing the link between the Administration and the Enron scandal - possibly the largest corporate scandal in U.S. history. Hatfield had published a scathing biography on Bush, and I believe he was doing further research on the matter. And I don't think that any further comment about Wellstone is needed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Truly what's with the Wellstone thing
Why was he such a "danger" that he had to be killed? He was going to bring up 9/11? Any proof of that? He was a Senator. Why not off Kerry, Kennedy, Byrd? The journalists are easy prey. I'm sure they could be suicided easily. Plane crashes though?

David Kelly most definitely was murdered-that's a Blair/M15/6 thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Wasn't Kennedy supposed to be on that flight
making it a 2-for-1?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
56. I hadn't heard that
But that doesn't mean it wasn't true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. For some reason I remember hearing this too. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
46. Do you doubt that he was considered crucial to Dem. control of the
Senate in 02?

Or that he was the biggest thorn of any Senator in the side of the Administration, as I said in my OP?

I'm looking for confirmation about the 9/11 thing, though I don't know that I'll be able to find proof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. How was he the biggest thorn in the side of the admin?
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 06:59 PM by rinsd
Seriously. How?

In regards to control of the Senate, as someone who has done extensive work on the exit polls & stolen elections, why not just steal the election? Why kill a Senator? That almost backfired on them. And if you buy into Carnahan being the "test" run, they would know this was a losing tactic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. See post # 51 to address some of your questions
I don't think that it is a good argument against a crime to suggest, "Why didn't they commit another crime instead?" There may be any number of reasons.

You say, "Why not just steal an election?", as if that would be easy. Yes, I believe that Bush stole the 2004 election, and the 2000 election. But I never said that I thought it was easy, and I never said that I thought they could steal anything they wanted to. I believe that their capabilities for stealing elections are somewhat limited, though nobody knows exactly what the limitation is, and their ability to do this is certainly likely to increase if we don't stop them. Wellstone was pulling out to a big lead in Minnesota, and it may be that they felt that they didn't have the capability to overcome that big of a lead with the kinds of election fraud that were available to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #53
96. I agree that saying "well why didn't they do this" is not a great argument
But we are dealing with the level of threat as interpreted to why they would kill him, their motivation. If their motivation was control of the Senate, electoral shenanigans would be easier. Not necessarily in Wellstone's race(because of his lead) but others around the country.

If their motivation was fear of Wellstone conducting hearings, GOP control of the Senate would prevent him from doing so.

I just don't think he was killed. Not because I doubt the craven nature of the admin, but because it does not make sense for them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
143. Because he was outspokenly opposed to going to Iraq
and he was climbing in the polls. It was going to be a mandate against going to war in Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wow - Thanks for this excellent compilation
It really is scary. And the truth is, only ONE of these needs to be an assassination for it to matter...

:scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. Seems to defy the law of probabilities
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah....just like the Clinton Death List "defied" the law of probs....
:eyes:


This stuff is crap. How about helping formulate a unified party policy, work at the grass-roots level and win an election, instead.

Not as much fun at CTs, but much more rewarding in the long run.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Instead of dismissing a post as crap.....
Do you have some constructive criticism of the article? Anything you care to rebutt or dismantle? If you don't believe it, that's fine. But if you're going to call something crap, it would help if you mentioned why.

The Clinton Death List didn't defy the law of probabilities because many of the names were made up, many of the connections the deceased had to the Clinton's were either made up or exaggerated, and quite often the circumstances surrounding the deaths were made up in these lists. Scaife spent MILLIONS of dollars compiling these lists to make the Clintons look as guilty as possible. No such thing was done with this list. No one can deny that these people were dangerous to this administration. No one can deny that the circumstances and often the investigations surrounding these deaths were very suspicious.

Am I a conspiracy theorist? Perhaps. But I think people who think that NONE of these deaths involve foul play are massive coincidence theorists. Occam's Razor and all....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I did offer constructive criticism. Quit being distracted by shiny,
spangly things, and get organized and win an election.

I don't know how more constructive I could be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. You call this crap, but you don't provide a reason
You refer to the Clinton death list. What does that have to do with this, other than that they superficially sound similar?

Pointing to crap conspiracy theories doesn't mean that all conspiracy theories are crap. If that was the case, it would mean that there are no conspiracies. Do you believe that?

If you think that this is crap I think that it would be more constructive to point out where you specifically disagree with what I said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I offered very constructive advice.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 04:48 PM by tx_dem41
You want to play distracting games. I want to win an election.

Its just a difference of opinion that we will both have to live with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Constructive criticism vs. constructive criticism...
Now you say you offered constructive criticism. I agree, we should focus on winning an election. Does that mean we should ignore all these other HUGE issues facing the country? Are we not capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time?

Constructive criticism would be saying: "I think think when you said X, you were incorrect because of Y." It is not saying: "When you said X, that was crap, we should be talking about Y." Understand the difference now? That being said, do you have any constructive criticism regarding this topic? If not, that's fine, but you shouldn't denegrate the article because you don't believe what it espouses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Quite frankly....no we are not. We don't have the luxury to do that.
And when the distractions make us look nutty, the "chewing gum" part is not only distracting, it's destructive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
70. I respect your desire to work on winning elections
And I'm glad you're working on that.

All of us DUers want to win elections.

Many of us feel that one way to help is by spreading information -- accurate information that shows our opposition for what it is.

Why characterize that as a distracting game?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
68. Something about 90% of your posts makes me want to hit the alert button.
It's not just that I disagree with most, either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
107. I have felt the same way
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
108. Half of Clinton's death list belonged to Poppy. Freepers confuse easily.
They didn't realize that Mena was a CIA operation under Poppy, and Clinton was just a pawn for Poppy at the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
123. hey.........how about staying out of the thread if you don't like it?
thanks so much
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. They had all been WHACKED!!!
These professional hits were made to look like "accidents" or "suicides."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Margie Schoedinger, Bush's little known "Juanita Broderick"...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Here's another more detailed article...
This one's kinda spookier, which was written by someone who'd spoken to her before she was "suicided"...

http://www.holesinthesky.com/bushrape.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #36
93. It would be very interesting to know when this alleged rape occurred
Geez, will our corporate media ever have a greater priority than protecting Republicans? Imagine how much media coverage this would have received had it involved Clinton?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. Very interesting story
It certainly does seem to support the implications of my OP.

I wish though that there were more details in the story about her relationship with Bush. I was unclear about when the alleged rape occured, or what the circumstances were.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Vince Foster? Sorry, no.
It's called "pareidol" - the ability of the brain to discern patterns where there are no patterns, such as the Virgin Mary in a stain or Allahu'Akbar in a fruit. There is no pattern here, and similar lists could be drawn up about any political administration in any large country over the past 200 years - or, indeed, any similarly large business or social undertaking.

One of the big problems with systems like this is that the statistical analysis is compiled in retrospect - the names of the dead are know, and automatically included in the overall set (your "top 200"). If you were asked to draw up a "top 200" at the end of 2001, or at the end of 2002, I think it would not contain more than one of these names - David Kelly, for instance, was unknown until later. In fact, your set would have to be far, far larger - say, the top 200,000 people likely to become Bush enemies over the next five years, an impossible list to calculate.

Also, your calculations include all suspicious deaths - such as that of Westhusing - as suspicious deaths connected with Bush. Westhusing may have been murdered by the contractors he attempted to expose; connecting that to the WH is a hell of a leap. Consequently, the terms become yet more vague.

Incidentally, and this may not be a factor, those who actually do intend to kill themselves, rather than just simply make a "cry for help", very rarely indicate the depth of the feelings for fear someone may intervene in the path they have chosen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
63. David Kelly was not exactly 'unknown!
I think a lot of peopel in Britain were aware of him. his name used to pop up often! One thing is needed - is to keep an open mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
74. So what we disagree on (perhaps) is whether or not there is a pattern here
Actually, I didn't even say that there was a pattern. In fact, I specifically said that I was not able to calculate probabilities because I don't know what the denominator should be.

The issue involves around how many of these six people (and I may have missed several people, as other posters have pointed out) should actually be considered, by an unbiased assessment, in the top 100 or 200 or whatever of the Bush Administration.

We both agree, I think, that a truly unbiased assessment of that should allow the calculation of a reasonably valid probability that these many suicides could have occurred by chance. One point where I disagree with you is that the assessment could not be retrospective. In fact, it would have to be retrospective if it were to be valid, since there would be no way to know in January of 2001 which people would pose the biggest threats to this administration. But that's besides the point.

We both agree that a truly unbiased assessment of this should come close to giving us a reasonably good answer. I think I would disagree with you that only one person that I talked about would be in the top 100. In fact, I don't doubt that all 6 of them would be. But I can't prove that, I admit, and that's why I left it as an open question in my OP.

I wish that some DUer could think of a reasonably objective way to make such an assessment, because I truly believe that it would provide us with some very interesting findings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #74
83. That's a reasonable approach.
However, Occam keeps nagging me. Why, out of the army of people who have attacked the Bush administration over the past five years, "whack" these ones? If you're going to adopt an absurdly risky policy like assassination, you would have to pick high-yield targets for it to be worthwhile. Richard Clarke, not Kelly, Cindy Sheehan, not Westhusing, and three dozen other names.

Also, there is the possibility that one of these people was actually murdered by Team Bush. I doubt any of them were, but if one was, my money would be on Wellstone (with a side bet on Kelly, if Team Blair is considered part of Team Bush). However, the way that your OP will inevitably be interpreted by a lot of people here as saying all of these people were killed by Team Bush. Not your fault, but it indicates the danger of the "Coincidence? I think not!" approach.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the top 100.

Finally, you say something interesting in your final paragraph: "I wish that some DUer could think of a reasonably objective way to make such an assessment." My fear is not that a DUer could not do such a thing, it is that other DUers would automatically reject that assessment if it produced the "wrong" answer - that these deaths were not murders by Bushco.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Some possibilities
You ask why, out of the army of people, were these the ones who were killed. I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to asnswer that. There could be all sorts of possibilities. If it's true that this administration has a habit of assassinating people whom it badly wants out of the way, its choices would depend on numerous factors, the great majority of which would not be available to us. Their choice would depend not only on the degree of threat, but also on the opportunity, and on the likelihood that suspicion would be thrown on them. Richard Clarke may have simply been too high profile, after he testified. Cindy Sheehan may have been too high profile in relation to the threat that she represented, for example.

You say that my OP may be misinterpreted. Of course, that is always a danger, and I tried very hard to make it clear enough that it would not be misinterpreted. Judging from the nature of the responses to my OP, it seems to me that the biggest misinterpretations are coming from people who are saying that what I wrote is "a bunch of crap", and not from the people who like the post, who seem mostly to have a good awareness of the limitations of the point I'm making.

With regard to the top 100, I made no claims about that in my OP. I just presented what I felt was some relevant information, and asked people to consider whether or not those whom I discussed would fit in the top 100.

It would be quite a task to come up with an objective list, that is for sure. It reminds me of a book I read called something like "The World's Top 100 Influential People of All Time".

Anyhow, thanks for your input, you make some very good points.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Well, thanks
This sort of analysis is always interesting to address critically.

Let's have a quick look at this idea of "too high profile". It suggests that at some early stage after a threat of any kind to the admin emerges, the question is asked: "Can we kill him/her?" and that if the answer is "yes", the operation may well proceed. If the answer is "no, too high profile", another path is chosen - swiftboating for instance.

I find it hard to believe that any decision-making process would proceed along those lines. Surely the easier, more obvious, less risky routes would come first? But as you say we don't know how these things work.

Let's take the case of David Kelly. He was an obscure government scientist known to very few people until he present evidence to the Commons committee. Then, he became very, very high profile, and he was extremely high profile when he died. And it's hard to imagine a critic as high profile as a US senator facing re-election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Yes, but some people represent such great threats that they may be
Edited on Fri Dec-02-05 07:25 AM by Time for change
assassinated despite the high profile. Like JFK, for example.

Did you read the link in my OP to another DU article regarding Kelly, which speculated on just how great a threat he may have been? I think that article makes a plausible case, though certainly falls far short of proof.

And did you read carefully the evidence presented in the OP against the likelihood of Raymond Lemme committing suicide? It seems to me that he represented a severe threat to the Administration. His statement to Clint Curtis sounded like he was on the verge of exposing the whole 2004 election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Kicked and nominated...
And this is far different from any of the "Clinton body count" eRumors floating around the internet and funded by Scaife. Basically, with that, anyone who had any relation in the slightest to the Clintons was looked at, and being politicians, they knew LOTS of people. Then, the Scaife researchers found a number who had died, made up some who hadn't, and compiled them in a list including all the nefarious reasons the Clintons might want them killed. It's quite frankly a laughable piece of work. I googled a number of the names included, and quite often the only references I could find to them were in, you guessed it, other Clinton body count sites.

This, however, is a list of true enemies of this administration dying in very peculiar manners. Completely disregarding the lists on the other side, are you willing to dismiss all of the above referenced deaths to chance? Do you think the enemies of * are far more likely to die in these manners when compared to the population as a whole?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Yeah it's very different,....
One says Clinton Body Count and the other says Bush Body Count. Okay I jest since the Clinton one was a bit loonier.

Both lists exaggerate just how much of an "enemy" the deceased was to the man who supposedly ordered the hit.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. Could you please point out where you think I exaggerated?
Seriously, I tried very hard not to exaggerate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. In terms of threat to the Bush admin.....
I've seen talk over and over again about how Wellstone was Bush's greatest threat in the Senate. I just don't see it that way. Especially to the point where his death became a logical necessity.

With Hatfield, his allegation was already out there. He had been put through the slime wringer where he was unwelcome in the mainstream or easily pushed aside.

Baxter, if killed, was more likely done in by his partners in crime.

Kelly, if killed, it would be more likely the Brits. That thread is so full of speculation, intent on weaving conspiracy theory.

The sourcing for the biographers is horrible. One is fun with statistics and the other is prisonplanet.

You've done extensive work with numbers on the exit polls, how do you "prove" the statistical unlikelyhood of these people committing suicide based purely on age groups? Wouldn't conditions make such conclusions unlikely?

Some of these "researchers" seemed a bit out there, not because of their subject material but their near obsession with the material. I imagine they experienced a great deal of alienation and threast both real and imagined. Than again, we would expect more nutters that had a hard on for Clinton to have offed themselves.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Answer to your statements
With regard to Wellstone, for one thing he was the only Senator running for re-election who voted against giving Bush the authority to go to war in Iraq. Here is an editorial that agrees with me on this: http://fixco1.com/bushwellstone.html . It has lots of good stuff in it IMO, but here is a quote that seems reasonable to me:
"Wellstone opposed Bush's plan to privatize Social Security, he opposed Bush's tax cuts for the rich, he opposed Bush's positions on the Middle East, and he opposed just about every other Republican proposal. In other words, Wellstone was a thorn in the GOP's side and they wanted him gone." I didn't say that his death was a logical necessity, but certainly he was the wanted him out very badly.

You may be right about Hatfield, I don't know. Hatfield ruminated before his death that he didn't understand the ferocity of the reaction against him. All of his allegations, except the one about cocaine, were public knowledge. But he speculated that perhaps the Bushes saw something between the lines in his writings. Here is a quote from the link I provide above: "It may have been the bin Laden connection. The book reports that James Bath, the American representative of Osama bin Laden's brother Salem had invested $50,000 in baby Bush's oil company Arbusto. In light of the events that transpired since Jim's death, I suspect that may have been part of the book they most wanted suppressed. When any of us, including Hatfield read that part before Sept. 11,? 2001, it had a very different meaning from what it has now. Jim thought there may be other things that would emerge when two elements were put together in a different way than they had been before. That was essentially what had happened with the story of the cocaine bust. In a sense it had been between the lines, if one could have been able to perceive it." Also, I understand that Hatfield was still working on his project. And he had received death threats from Bush allies prior to his death. If he wasn't such a big problem to these people why did he receive death threats?

What partners in crime are you talking about for Baxter? Baxter wasn't a criminal, he was a hero.

With regard to the statistics, the point is that suicide is very unusual in this country, and there was little in the history of any of these people, with the possible exception of Hatfield, which suggested suicide. I said in my OP that I can't figure the odds because I don't know what the denominator is. If the five other than Wellstone were in the top 100 list of enemies, then the odds were 10,000 to one against it. I don't know that all 5 of them would make the top 100 list, but I put forth reasons to suggest that they might be.

What would be nice would be if someone could put together such a list in an unbiased manner, using scientific methodology to do that. That would be quite a project, but it could be illuminating.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #51
98. In regards to Baxter....
It was a badly turned phrase. I meant Enron people were more likely to shut him up and government help isn't a requirement for the rich and powerful to snuff someone.

""Wellstone opposed Bush's plan to privatize Social Security, he opposed Bush's tax cuts for the rich, he opposed Bush's positions on the Middle East, and he opposed just about every other Republican proposal. In other words, Wellstone was a thorn in the GOP's side and they wanted him gone." I didn't say that his death was a logical necessity, but certainly he was the wanted him out very badly."

I agree with all of that but it also describes other Democrats. Even though Welstone was a leader, I just don't see him as a threat that forces a desperate action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Time for Change,you were careful with your words and
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 08:51 PM by goclark

I will kick and nominate.

I also applaud you for being a person that has their eyes wide open instead of wide shut.

You are just laying out information,those who wish to shut their eyes may do so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. Mel Carnahan too, don't forget and JFK and possibly Ron Brown.
Bookmarked! :hi:

Why have Bush enemies died untimely deaths? They don't call the BFEE the BFEE for nuthin'! They were MURDERED.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
94. Thanks - I wasn't aware of a connection between the Bushes and
Carnahan's or Brown's deaths.

Do you have any additional information on that, or a link?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
30. Superb post. Recommended and bookmarked.
Peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. I was in Northern Minnesota the day Wellstone died
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 05:17 PM by jim3775
I was driving to Duluth. I have no doubt that it was ice, bad visibility and the unique geography of the area that caused the crash. Also, that article you quoted was an editorial and doesn't quote any sources. This claim:

"none of the typical causes of a small plane accidentengine failure, icing, pilot errorappear to be involved."

is just speculation.



The claim that "two smaller Beech Queen Air planes had landed at Eveleth without incident two hours before the crash" is ridiculous if you have ever been near the north shore of lake superior, the temperature will often shift above and below freezing .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Icing conditions in area where Wellstone crashed.
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 05:44 PM by Time for change
From the St. Paul Pioneer Press: "Another pilot who landed a slightly larger twin engine plane at the airport on Friday, a couple of hours before Wellstone's plane crashed, said in an interview that he experienced no significant problems.

"Veteran pilot Ray Juntunen said there was very light ice, 'but nothing to be alarmed about. It shouldn't have been a problem.'

"He said he ran into moderate icing conditions at 10,000 feet, to begin his approach, 'the ice slid off the windshield', he said.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board Wellstone's pilots received warnings of icing at 9,000 to 11,000 feet and were allowed to descend to 4,000 feet. Juntunen said he was able to see the airport from five miles out, and another pilot landed a half hour later and told him the clouds were a little lower, but still not bad".

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You've convinced me
He was murdered in a sinister Bush plot. :tinfoilhat:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. JFK was poised to spill the beans...
GHWB made sure he had no opportunity to do so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Spill the beans on what? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. Vietnam
out of control CIA & Military Industrial Complex.

be that as it may, look where we are today... there is NO DOUBT about the destructive psychotic greed of the evil bastards finally in power today.

AKA: the fucking CRAZIES

peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
109. He was going to withdraw the US military from Vietnam.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
42. to be fair, bush has a LOT of well-deserved enemies
and people die untimely deaths sometimes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Yes, he does
But where would you rate the six victims that I talk about in my OP? How many of them do you think would be in our Administration's top 100 list?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Dupe
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 06:33 PM by Time for change
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abester Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. I doubt it
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 07:05 PM by abester
because let's be honest here for a second: going about cold bloodingly murdering your opponents is very, very, _very_ politically inconvenient, especially if it ever should come out. Look at the fuss created about watergate, and that was a simple break and entering!

For example, allow me to dissect this one instance:

J. H. Hatfield, suicide?
So he smiled. So he waved and appeared to be happy. No big deal! 9 out of 10 times suicide is a completely irrational act and it's because of this impossible to take this as a premise for your case.
Secondly, and more importantly, why would officials in the higher echelons go trough the very ardeous ordeal of conspiring to commit murder, and then covering it up, simply because the guy wrote a less-than-colorful book which gets largely ignored by the subservient media which unquestiongly believe every word you say?

That simply doesn't make any sense at all! Perhaps it was murder, but extremely unlikely it should proof to have ties to this administration.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm convinced this administration had foreknowledge of the new pearl harbour. I'm convinced they conspired to allow a terror attack happen just to push trough their agenda, knowing that dozens, hunderds or more casualties were likely.
So if they are willing to do this, they are also morally capable of commiting murder and if it were somehow allowed, no hair on my head that doubts a Cheney or Rummy would do it at a whim. But they calculated well that 3000 killed would be another statistic, the people would rally behind them, and would never let or allow a critical light to shine upon the events leading to tragedy.

I appreciate the time and quality of your post, but personally, I think its far fetched. Besides, this gives the right wing nuts who are in control even more substance to throw at us and our couse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
62. ah, if it ever should come out - when has it ever come out?
I don't think it is far fetched because 'these' people cover 'their' tracks. I mean look at the Iran Contra - the amazing things that were going on there and the whole thing fizzled like a damp squibb!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #50
89. Answers to your doubts
You say that assassinating your opponents is too risky, and you bring up Watergate. That's not a good example for your case, because that's exactly the case that Nixon's defenders were making for him: He wouldn't have done it, because it's too risky. And he even had it taped.

I believe that the people I talk about in this thread likely represented huge threats to the Bush Administration and its agenda. One was probably on the verge of exposing the 2004 election fraud. Another may have been on the verge of further exposures of the Administration's lies over going to war in Iraq. Another was probably about to expose severe abuses of contractors that the Administration had hired to work in Iraq - which would have been a big blow to the Administration's staying in Iraq. Another was thought to possibly be on the verge of exposing the link between the Administration and the Enron scandal - possibly the largest corporate scandal in U.S. history. Hatfield had published a scathing biography on Bush, and I believe he was doing further research on the matter. And I don't think that any further comment about Wellstone is needed.

You bring up the Hatfield "suicide", which of the six that I mention probably represents the weakest case for assassination. But let's consider that one, since you bring it up: I presented evidence in my OP both for and against suicide, and made no definitive pronouncements on whether this was suicide or not. A witness that noticed a person to be in an apparently good mood just prior to a suicide DOES constitute evidence. The good majority of people who commit suicide are depressed, which means that they rarely appear to be in a good mood.

With regard to why the Administration would have Hatfield murdered, I don't see why that would be so hard to believe. They went to extreme lengths to prevent the publication of his book. They gave death threats to Hatfield and his family. This was not just a "less than colorful book". Why would they do it? Two possible reasons. Either to give a message to others who might be contemplating something similar (Joe Wilson/Valerie Plame), or because Hatfield was continuing to do research for his project, and they feared what he might come up with.

You bring up our subservient news media. Well, I submit that that's one additional reason that allowed them to do these things. They knew that they wouldn't be covered by the news media. And in fact they were correct in that assumption - the news media gave way too little attention to these deaths of very important people whose deaths received very cursory investigations. Can you imagine the coverage that would have occurred had a single one of Clinton's enemies have "suicided"? Ken Star, for example.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Thirtieschild Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
147. Hatfield appearing happy doesn't argue against suicide
Someone about to commit suicide may appear happy, in fact, because the decision has been made. The daughter of a very close friend committed suicide and everyone who saw her that day - including her psychiatrist - talked about how happy she seemed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #147
148. I presented evidence in my OP both for and against suicide for Hatfield
Appearing happy does constitute evidence because the good majority of suicidal people are depressed and do not appear happy at all. Yes, there are exceptions, just as sometimes a suicide note that is apparently left by the victim may have been forged by the murderer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
52. There is a whole lot more on Casaloro.
His case by itself has convinced me that these are murders. Casolaro interviewed about 5 people all of whom died and then co-author Jim Keith who wrote the book "Octopus" died in a hospital after an accident. Then a lawyer named Paul Wilcher who was set to report facts on the 1980 October Surprise--the primary focus of Casolaro's work was found dead in his apartment sitting on the toilet, then Abby Hoffman......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
113. OMG
Is there a book on this? There certainly should be.

Or, on second thought, who would be courageous enough to write such a book?

:scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. Exactly, on your last question. Go to
Bushbodycount.com if it is still up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. It says "You've reached the the new home of the Bush Body Count --
Please bear with us while we get up and running".

So how old is the original site, and why are they having to move?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. I think the first two site managers passed away.
((Just kidding)). I know they went through some changes a few years ago and removed some material.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #113
127. Casolaro's and Wilcher's bodies were both embalmed "BEFORE"
permission was given by the family. Effectively eliminating any drug evidence. Wilcher wrote a letter to Janet Reno and said he had a tape of Poppy in an SR71 Blackbird flying back from Europe in the fall of 1980.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. You mean a tape regarding the 1980 October Surprise?
And when did Wilcher write that letter to Janet Reno -- when she was AG?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
USA_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
54. Sergio Vieria de Mello - Bush's # 1 Political Enemy
Mr de Mello was the world's biggest critic of Bush imperialism. His death at the hands of the so-called Vanguard of the Second Army of Muhammed was the biggest political assassination set up since Dallas, 1963.

First, that group was never heard of before nor since the murder.

Second, according to the Koran there is not to be another army for Muhammed as he is dead and would not be resurrected. Therefore, no true Muslim would use such a name for this type of group.

Third, the news media never indicated how VSAM came into communication with the media and why its communication was never traced by the CIA or by Interpol.

Fourth, every vehicle that entered into or near the UN compound had been inspected. Strangely enough, that truck carrying 5,000 pounds of bombs and heading for the compound was deliberately not inspected.

Fifth, the truck driver just happened to know when Mr de Mello was going to be near the entrance where he could be more readily killed. Talk about great timing!


What a strange way to die.

And now we hear that 4 Peace workers in Iraq have been kidnapped by a previously unknown group.

Hmmm -- sound suspicious to you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #54
95. Thanks - Do you have a link for this? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. A statistical coincidence just like the witnesses of the JFK assassination
A series of linking and connecting coincidences if you look at the witnesses of JFK

A coincidence becomes a statistical abnormality in regards to these types of cases
if the facts begin to become a pattern. Nice work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
102. Thank you - I wish that some knowledgeable person was able to
figure out some reasonably objective way to rank the top 100 or so Bush enemies since he took office in 2001. Then we'd be able to obtain a reasonable estimate of what the actual probability is here.

I didn't say this in my OP, but it just seems to me that the 6 people I talk about in the OP were in the top 100 -- but I suppose that I'm someone biased about that due to their untimely deaths.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
65. I don't know about y'all, but if the last (almost) 5 years have taught me
ANYTHING, it's that these criminals are capable of ANYTHING.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
67. You certainly get my award for having the biggest balls on DU.
Gotta tell ya. :wow:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #67
92. Do you say that because my OP is so controversial?
Edited on Fri Dec-02-05 08:58 AM by Time for change
Honestly, I don't see why it should be.

I'm not even making a claim for what the likelihood is that these events represent assassination vs. suicides or accidents. All I did was present some information on threats that these people posed to the Administration, along with some details of their "suicides". And I really did try not to exaggerate any of it.

And furthermore, there have been literally thousands of posts on DU which make the case for Bush lying us into a war. Isn't that worse than assassinating a few people?

But I think I know why this is considered so controversial: People are afraid that we will seem like nuts or "conspiracy theorists". That is a valid issue to consider. And without a doubt, a large reason that we run the risk of being portrayed like that is that our corporate news media doesn't want to lend legitimacy to anything that might disturb the status quo.

But we can't let that silence us. Yes, we must be very careful about how we talk about this. And when we talk about things like this off of DU we generally need to be more subtle. For example, our Dem. representatives in Congress are now able to state that Bush misled us into war. But none of them would dare say that he had base motives for doing so. They are probably right to handle it like that - though probably most of them go to far, as Howard Dean showed when he jumped out to a big lead in the Presidential race in early 2004.

So, I don't feel that it took much balls for me to post this. The ones who really have balls are the 6 men that I describe in my OP. Every one of them is a true hero IMO, and I probably should have made a bigger point of that in my OP. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
69. The "Bush Body Count"?
Hey, what's good for the goose...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #69
114. Yes, but
It should be titled and handled much differently in every way. The stuff about Clinton being involved in all those murders was so transparently false and ridiculous that it gives "conspiracy theorist" (of which I am one, and proud of it) a bad name.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Craig3410 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. Can we PLEASE not do this?
We're doing the EXACT thing that they did with Clinton, and had us up in arms.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

Please?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. No, this is not the exact same thing at all
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 10:36 PM by Time for change
First of all, see my post # 27, and EOTE's posts #s 19 and 22, for starters.

The stuff they did with Clinton on this issue was patently absurd.

So because Clinton was accused of stuff that he didn't do, that means that we can't accuse anyone else of something similar, despite how much evidence there is?

If you don't like what I have to say and you want to argue about it or disagree with it, then fine. But wouldn't it be more constructive to point out what it is that I'm saying that you think is wrong?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
abester Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. I think the list of bush enemies is very long...
...and they can't possibly try to eleminate them all. Many people who you refer to aren't big fish, or could seriously harm this administration. Only a few people can, those with connections themselves, people like Richard Clarke. They tried and damage this administration, and failed (for the short term).
So it doesn't make any sense at all to suppose they murder mere authors
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. It doesn't make any sense.
Especially when it comes to an unmedicated shithat like Hatfield. Wellstone? Guys, guys. I know he's popular around here. Hell, he was one of my favorite pols. But to suppose that he was murdered is just, well... it's fucking stupid. This sort of paranoia is completely counterproductive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
111. Why do you think that murdering him would be stupid?
Evil, yes, but stupid?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
126. Hatfield had prior knowledge of 9/11. But then I am sure you knew
this. :eyes:


Just a little tidbit on Wellstone. You will note this was written prior to his death. His death changed the Senate from a majority democrat to majority Repug. But I'm sure you knew that too.



'paul wellstone is a hunted man'
by John Nichols, The Nation - October 28, 2002

Paul Wellstone, Fighter
originally posted May 9, 2002
Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Here's part of Hatfields last letter written in July 2001
Jim Hatfield on bin Laden, Bush and attacks with highjacked airplanes -- July 2001
Linda Starr of Online Journal reminds us that in his last column for Online Journal before his death J.H. Hatfield, author of the controversial George W. Bush biography Fortunate Son: The Making of an American President, discussed oil business connections between George W. Bush and the bin Laden family and also talked about a possible attack on Bush by Osama bin Laden using highjacked airliners at the G8 summit in Italy that month.
Hatfield said, "According to counter-terrorism experts quoted in Germany's largest newspaper, the attack on Dubya might be a James Bond-like aerial strike in the form of remote-controlled airplanes packed with plastic explosives. Why would Osama bi Laden want to kill, Dubya, his former business partner?"

About a month and a half before his death, Hatfield said to me, "I don't know what it is about this book , but something really makes them crazy. They really just don't want this book out there."

Hatfield said he had received death threats from Bush friends and threats that named his wife and baby daughter. That was only the most chilling aspect of a vicious campaign to discredit the book by discrediting the author.

The charge that Bush had been arrested on a cocaine charge was brought out in an afterword to the book at the last minute at the urging of St. Martin's press, who hoped it would boost the book's sales. (It zoomed to the bestseller list immediately.) But that detail had eluded Hatfield until it started cropping up in other places, such as Salon. Then, he said, he went back to his sources and got confirmation off the record. Hatfield said the pieces were there in the text but he had not previously been able to put them together. "The piece about the community service just didn't fit," he said. "Why did this rich young playboy alcoholic pleasure seeker suddenly go do community service in a center for inner city kids." When the drug bust surfaced, it made the piece fit.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. Ok, so Hatfield is saying that Bin Laden may try to kill Bush
using a remote controlled airplane.

But how does that translate into Bin Laden knowing about 9-11 ahead of time?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #82
90. Couldn't do serious harm?
Edited on Fri Dec-02-05 08:25 AM by Time for change
I don't think that you know enough about these people to say that.

I believe that the people I talk about in this thread likely represented huge threats to the Bush Administration and its agenda. One (Lemme) was probably on the verge of exposing the 2004 election fraud. Another (Kelly) may have been on the verge of further exposures of the Administration's lies over going to war in Iraq (see link to another DU post, which explains this). Another (Westhusing) was probably about to expose severe abuses of contractors that the Administration had hired to work in Iraq - which would have been a big blow to the Administration's staying in Iraq. Another (Baxter) was thought to possibly be on the verge of exposing the link between the Administration and the Enron scandal - possibly the largest corporate scandal in U.S. history. Hatfield had published a scathing biography on Bush, and I believe he was doing further research on the matter. And I don't think that any further comment about Wellstone is needed.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #73
117. As soon as you have a snopes entry with a false status....
regarding the Bush body count, then no. If you care to debunk any of this information as Snopes has done with the Clinton body count, then yes, I'll be glad to stop talking about it. Until then, judge this thread on it's own merits.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #73
125. Craig, will you do me a big favor?
Please point me to some of your posts calling repugs down on their shit, or something you've written elsewhere that slams these fascists.
Thank You.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
151. you can not do this, if you want
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
76. To buy into this crap:
You'd have to believe they'd conspire to out a CIA operative. You'd have to believe they'd lie us into war. You'd have to believe they'd task their Supreme Court cronies with undermining democracy. You'd have to believe they'd plant paid shills in the U.S. media. You'd have to believe they'd prevent us from investigating September 11. You'd have to believe they'd torture innocent people for the sole purpose of training American troops and mercenaries to do things they wouldn't otherwise dream of doing.

What a bunch of crap. You people would believe anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Hey, let's not get carried away here
I didn't say anything in this post about outing a CIA operative. I wouldn't want anyone to accuse me of being a :tinfoilhat:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
99. can you all say murder? m u r d e r

the bushgang bullys, bribes, blackmails, threatens and if that fails they murder.

have you ever checked out the bushbodycount site?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
100. I was living in California
at the time Daniel Casolaro was writing his articles. It was more than the Iran-Contra deal, it was about stealing the Promis Software from a family owned business, the creation of BCCI and laundering. It was a lot more. When he was found dead, I knew he was murdered. Then, there was an article in the paper written by NG, who reported his death and said he would look into it along with the BCCI investigation, Casolero was doing. Ng wound up dead. It was downright spooky. Also, at the time of Danny Casolero's demise, there was the report in Southern California about a British agent who apparently killed his family and then killed himself. I remember the news at that time. Today, the media wouldn't have the "balls" to report like they did back then. My highschool classmate became an investigative jounalist and she exposed the Mena drop off, guns for drugs, during the Iran-Contra deal. They put drugs on our streets!!! But, some of you want to believe it's all tin-foil hat conspiracies. These articles were in our papers at the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LuCifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
101. Even my own shit could figure out that...
...gee, if this is all coinkydues, then that's ASTRONOMICAL ODDS.

Give me a freaking BREAK. This elitist scumbag cabal that rules this planet is capable of goddamn near ANYTHING.

Lu
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
103. While talk of "conspiracy theories" seems to make everyone queasy....
Doesn't everyone think it's just a teensy bit odd that far more liberal politicians/public figures seem to die before their time than conservative ones?

I mean, just objectively....not coming from a liberal or conservative viewpoint, just compiling the lists (JFK, Wellstone, RFK, MLK, Casolaro, etc on the left vs.....anybody? Anybody? on the right) it does seem strange to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. I hadn't thought of it like that before
In addition to the ones that you name there was Mel Carnahan (plane crash), Ron Brown (plane crash), Hale Boggs (plane crash, and member of the Warren Commission, perhaps the most skeptical member), and Senator John Heinz (plane crash, married to Theresa Heinz before he died. He was a Republican, but a very liberal Republican - I doubt that he would have stayed a Republican to this day had he lived). All plane crashes.

And on the subject of plane crashes, here is another article on the Wellstone Crash: http://fixco1.com/bushwellstone.html . Here is the part that caught my eye:

"I have spoken with people who are experts in the art of killing people and they say that assassination by plane crash is the best method because it leaves little evidence, little possibility of survivors, and it puts the investigation into the hands of a small group of people, government employees, who's opinions are difficult to challenge."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #103
115. Lee Greenwood once got a really bad case of the runs......
Right before one of his shows. He's been a thorn in the side of Liberals everywhere ever since he released "Proud to be an American". The circumstances behind the incident are shrouded in mystery although it is well known that Greenwood's diet had not changed around the time. It was speculated that Greenwood was going to accuse Bill Clinton of yet another rape/groping/murder on that night's show, but he lacked the intestinal fortitude to throw out baseless accusations that night due to his malady. Enemies of Bill beware!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. That IS funny.
But it has very little to do with this subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
104. An incredible in-depth analysis. Thank you.
I knew Paul Wellstone personally, and I hope each day that passes will bring us closer to the world he wished for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. yes, I loved Paul Wellstone
Edited on Fri Dec-02-05 01:30 PM by newspeak
I have a picture of him on my altar along with other family and friends who have died. I wish he was here now, because he would be speaking up for all of us!!! He truly was a "grass roots" man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #104
110. He was a hero, and his death was a great loss to our country and
to the world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
112. K & R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
118. There was also that guy in FL investigating the Rigged voting machines
he ended up dead in a GA hotel (a state where they don't require an autopsy on suicides, unlike FL)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Yes, that was Raymond Lemme
I talk about him in my OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. I believe you're referring to Raymond Lemme....
He's one of the six mentioned in the OP. Indeed very suspicious circumstances surrounding his death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
130. two more here you need to look at!!!
suspicious DEATHS in Washington DC. in nov 2003, state dept employee Kokal jumped off a rooftop and 'killed himself'. suspicious. he was the top Iraqi analyst in the bureau and briefed Powell at least once a week. no way he committed suicide.

a few weeks later a CIA official, Gus Weiss?, who worked for Richard Pearl, Weiss jumped off the Watergate building.

both suspicious deaths.

neither of the guys had access to the rooftops.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. another here....
i have a file filled with them...i will post as i pull from my files!!

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2005/Jan/20050123News004...

snip:

Author airs conspiracy theory on Ims death


By MIKE WELLS of the Tribunes staff
Published Sunday, January 23, 2005
The death of retired research Professor Jeong Im has all the makings of a spy novel, and some say that idea isnt far off base.

Someone stabbed the 72-year-old scientist multiple times in the Maryland Avenue parking garage at the University of Missouri-Columbia, put him in the trunk of his Honda and set the car on fire. Adding to the mystery, police say a hooded, masked man was seen carrying a gas can away from the scene.

University police on Friday announced a $10,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the Jan. 7 killing. Police have received more than 185 leads, including some that appear far-fetched.

A few days after firefighters found Ims body, a national radio talk-show guest theorized the killing was part of a plot to kill off key microbiologists in the world before unleashing "the ultimate epidemic."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
135. and this report from none other than faux...
mods this article no longer comes up on link so i am posting in full...
State Dept Worker Found Dead Outside Agency; "worked in a unit that dealt with intelligence and research." 11/9


State Dept. Worker Found Dead Outside Agency

Saturday, November 08, 2003



WASHINGTON A State Department (search) employee was found dead outside the agency headquarters in Washington, D.C., Friday around 5 p.m., Fox News has confirmed.

State Department sources told The Washington Post that John Kokal (search) worked in a unit that dealt with intelligence and research. Sources said he handled classified documents regularly but was not involved in intelligence analysis.

Police said the official cause and manner of death is to be determined by the D.C. medical examiner, the Post reported.

Fox News has confirmed that Kokal, 58, did work for the State Department Intelligence and Research Bureau (search), but has not yet confirmed that the body is that of Kokal.

Fire Department Spokesman Alan Etter said the man, a white male, was wearing a dress shirt, tie and slacks, but was not wearing shoes nor a suit jacket. He was found lying in the bottom of a concrete window well near 23rd and D streets, about eight stories below the top of the building. The well drops about 20 feet from ground level.

The department is in the Foggy Bottom (search) neighborhood of the District of Columbia.

It was not yet known whether the employee jumped or fell. Firemen told Fox News that the D.C. police were handling the investigation and that the death could possibly be a homicide and that the body would not be immediately removed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. and more..
the problem with many of these articles i saved to file is they no longer work...so here is what i have ..you can look further if you choose!!

fly

Marine who helped save Jessica Lynch shot at home
presstelegram.com -October 21



LONG BEACH Family members, friends and fellow Marines gathered Monday to mourn the death of a decorated Marine who survived a land mine explosion during Operation Iraqi Freedom only to be shot dead while on a weekend leave in Long Beach.

Lance Cpl. Sok Khak Ung, a 22-year-old combat engineer who participated in the rescue operation of Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch in April and was awarded the Purple Heart for taking shrapnel to the leg two weeks later, died early Sunday after a gunman opened fire as he and several friends were barbecuing oysters behind his father's home.

"It's a real shame to think that he went to hell and back in Iraq and sacrificed so much only to come back here and get killed like this,' said Gunnery Sgt. Graham Hilson, who served alongside Ung in Iraq. "It just goes to show you that sometimes it's more dangerous over here than it is in war.'





Marine, who helped Jessica Lynch, died in car accident

Thestate.com -July 8

GREENVILLE, S.C. -

"...A Marine who was part of the unit that helped rescue Army Pfc.
Jessica Lynch died in a car crash on his first weekend back home since returning
from Iraq.

Josh Speer, 21, veered off an Upstate road, overturned several times and struck
some trees as he was heading to see his fiancee.

Kent Dill, a Greenville County deputy coroner said Speer, 21, died on the scene
about 8 a.m.

Capt. Shawn Turner, a Marine Corps spokesman, said Speer served with the Marine
unit that aided in Lynch's rescue. Turner said details of what Speer's unit did to help
Lynch, the Army private captured to Iraqis, were unavailable..."

1 Day after the death of Lynch-Top Witness, the US announced a new report:
Crash caused Lynch's 'horrific injuries'

Washington Times -July 9

"The Army will release a report tomorrow on the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Iraq that will show Pfc. Jessica Lynch and another female soldier suffered extensive injuries in a vehicle accident, but not from Iraqi fighters. "

"Pfc. Lynch also was pulled from the wreckage and taken to the same hospital. "Lynch survived principally because of the medical attention she received from the Iraqis," one source said.
A week later, she became one of the war's most recognized faces. A combat camera crew recorded American special-operations forces carrying her broken body on a stretcher from the hospital to a rescue aircraft. "
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
137. death at the U.N. barely mentioned by msm...
links does not work but you can look it up!!

from my files..

fly


Welcome to AJC!

Body Is Found Inside U.N. Headquarters

NEW YORK (AP)--A body was found inside United Nations headquarters on Monday, a U.N. spokesman said. U.N. security and the New York police department are investigating the matter.

The U.N. spokesman said the person had been shot, and that the body was discovered inside the building's third-floor lounge at about 11:30 a.m. He declined to give any details on the deceased person pending notification of the family.

The spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the world body considered the shooting an ``isolated incident.''


AP-NY-12-01-03
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. this one as well..but story no longer avail!!
so please goggle it..it was in my files...

fly


Guardian Unlimited | World Latest | Body of Neb. Senator's Aide Found in Pond
Body of Neb. Senator's Aide Found in Pond

Tuesday February 10, 2004 6:01 AM


McCOOK Neb. (AP) - Divers found the body of an aide to Sen. Ben Nelson in a pond Monday, a day after he was seen walking his dogs in a park south of McCook, authorities said.

Two of Scott Hoffman's dogs had returned to his home without him and another was picked up Sunday afternoon. Authorities believe Hoffman, 33, may have gone after his dogs as they chased geese onto the park pond's thin ice.

Nelson issued a statement Monday saying Hoffman ``will be missed and remembered fondly by all who knew him.''

Hoffman was an editor at the McCook Gazette from 1995 through 2000 before taking a job with Nelson's campaign. He was Nelson's field representative in McCook.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Athan Gibbs dead, inventor of the TruVote system,
from my files...

this link should work!!

fly

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/853

snip:

Columns
Bob Fitrakis

Death of a patriot: No more
March 17, 2004

The subject line on yesterdays email read: Another mysterious accident solves a Bush problem. Athan Gibbs dead, Diebold lives. The attached news story briefly described the untimely Friday, March 12th death of perhaps Americas most influential advocate of a verified voting paper trail in the era of touch screen computer voting. Gibbs, an accountant for more than 30 years and the inventor of the TruVote system, died when his vehicle collided with an 18-wheeled truck which rolled his Chevy Blazer several times and forced it over the highway retaining wall where it came to rest on its roof.

Coincidence theorists will simply dismiss the death of Gibbs as a tragic accident the same conclusion these coincidence theorists came to when anti-nuclear activist Karen Silkwood died in November 1974 when her car struck a concrete embankment en route to a meeting with New York Times reporter David Burnham. Prominent independent investigators concluded that Silkwoods car was hit from behind and forced off the road. Silkwood was reportedly carrying documents that would expose illegal activities at the Kerr-McGee nuclear fuel plant. The FBI report found that she fell asleep at the wheel after overdosing on Quaaludes and that there never were any such files. A journalist secretly employed by the FBI, and a veteran of the Bureaus COINTELPRO operation against political activists, provided testimony for the FBI report.

Gibbs death bears heightened scrutiny because of the way he lived his life after the 2000 Florida election debacle. I interviewed Athan Gibbs in January of this year. Ive been an accountant, an auditor, for more than thirty years. Electronic voting machines that dont supply a paper trail go against every principle of accounting and auditing thats being taught in American business schools, he insisted.

These machines are set up to provide paper trails. No business in America would buy a machine that didnt provide a paper trail to audit and verify its transaction. Now, they want the people to purchase machines that you cant audit? Its absurd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
140. and who remembers CNN chief news executive Eason Jordan quit

FROM MY files:

fly

http://mediacitizen.blogspot.com/2005/02/bloggers-nail-...

snip:


Bloggers Nail Another Skin to the Wall


CNN chief news executive Eason Jordan quit Friday night amid an on- and off-line furor over remarks he allegedly made about American soldiers intentionally killing journalists in Iraq. Jordan delivered the remarks while sitting on a January 26 panel of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. While an actual tape of his comments has yet to be released, an attendee seeded news of the event in the blogosphere and ignited a firestorm.

Jordan submitted his resignation under escalating pressure from above and below, claiming he sought "to prevent CNN from being unfairly tarnished by the controversy over conflicting accounts." Jeff Jarvis doesn't get why Jordan had to go:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
141. GOP Media Adviser Died of Drug Overdose
sorry but all these links are dead...but here is another synopsis out of my files..

fly

GOP Media Adviser Died of Drug Overdose
LOS ANGELES Los Angeles coroner's autopsy shows Republican media adviser Gregory Stevens died from an overdose of cocaine and a painkiller. The death is being listed as accidental.

Stevens was 42. He served as co-chairman of the Bush/Cheney Entertainment Task Force.

The media adviser died at the Beverly Hills home of his friend, actress Carrie Fisher.

Coroner Lieutenant Emil Moldovan blames the death on cocaine and oxycodone. But Moldovan says Stevens also had an enlarged heart and coronary heart disease.

Stevens specialized in foreign campaign consulting and had advised candidates in 24 international elections.

He was a native of San Clemente and a graduate of the University of Southern California.




Last Updated: Mar 24, 2005


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. Wow, that's quite a bit of information
Can you give me some background on this?

Like, what was your goal in collecting all this information, what have you used it for previously, and have you posted this on DU? I'm just trying to put this in perspective - it's hard to know what to make of all this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #144
154. i started to see a pattern!!
shortly after 9/11 i started to see a pattern of anyone who spoke out against this admin was dying...it started with Brian Quig for me...

he was killed on my birthday...and i will never forget him and the articles his family were quoted in....and the pattern just got bigger and bigger...and i began a file on weird deaths surrounding this admin and anyone who came out with truth about what was going on!
i now have bulging files of weird deaths surrounding this admin!! and it has made me look to the past before this admin as well...its frightening!!

those around * take no prsioners..they kill them first!!

when someone dies at the U.N. by murder and no media says a thing..its quite alarming..and when a man commits suicide at the state dept and only one paper runs the story 10 days "after" it happens..another alarm goes off!!
and when 4 of Jessica Lynch's rescuers die in short order..one begins to understand whats going on!! and it's not pretty!!

there are now so many suicides tied to this admin it can not be a coinsidence..the odds would be too great...

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2003/06/6603.shtml

9/11 High Treason Author Killed

raven | 23.06.2003 03:20

9/11 High Treason Author Killed

Brian Downing Quig was killed in a hit and run accident June 16. The Bush body count increases by 1.

THE DEATH OF BRIAN DOWNING QUIG
www.stewwebb.com


9/11 High Treason
http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs0209/0930_bdquig....


9/11 High Treason Author Killed

Brian Downing Quig was killed in a hit and run accident June 16. The Bush body count increases by 1.

THE DEATH OF BRIAN DOWNING QUIG
www.stewwebb.com

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
145. I'll add the woman who put rape charges on Bush in court and
died of Suicide shortly there after

It was in the Fort Bend County Journal the same place Baxter died in Delay's district!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #145
153. Yes, another poster mentioned that too
Here is the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Unfortunately, the link to the article doesn't give a lot of information that one would like to see -- like the circumstances and date of the alleged rape. I wish there was more info on this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #153
157. Her case records are on file in that town in Texas...
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 10:34 AM by calipendence
If you look hard enough, you can get the PDF scans of the court records of her case. That should probably place the time of when it was alleged to have occured. It was some time ago, probably at least 2-3 years now.

The court records were put on file in December of 2002. You can read them here.

http://ccweb.co.fort-bend.tx.us/docdetail.asp?id=%0BNDF...

This link might be a link into their cache, so if you need to find it, go to this search page at this link:

http://ccweb.co.fort-bend.tx.us/search.asp?cabinet=civi...

and search for "Schoedinger"

What is interesting is that it also returns a lawsuit record against some Sugarland cops too, one of who's names was "Sergeant Schultz"! "I know NUTHINK!!!" :)

I guess for me, it isn't so much a question of whether she was really raped or outed. She could have been a kook and outed herself. It did establish that she had dated Bush once earlier in their high school days. So there is some degree of connection there that isn't fabricated.

The big issue for me was how the media ignored it, but gave Barbara Walters style TV interviews to someone like Juanita Broderick for essentially the same charges. And Juanita Broderick wasn't found dead of mysterious circumstances later.

Now you can say that Juanita Broderick was looked at because Clinton had more of a history of pecadillos with other women, and Bush didn't so Broderick's story was more likely to be true. However, I'd take issue with that. The only *established* history Clinton had with outside women were for "consensual" affairs (Monica Lewinsky, Gennifer Flowers). Those that alleged "harrassment" like Paula Jones, Katherine Willey, may have had relationships with Clinton, but there was no proven elements of harrassment or nonconsensual sex/treatment, just their allegations. Broderick was the only one that alleged rape, which was not proven. So I would argue that though it was established Clinton had relationships with other women, he did NOT have a habit of abusing them, and therefore Broderick's case wasn't any more likely than Schoedinger's.

And I would argue now, looking back on the allegations that at the time seemed rather ludicrous, that what we hear of Bush's private behavior from various testimony, Capitol Hill Blue stories, etc. that Bush has tirades and tantrums privately that would make him *more* likely to have raped someone from a behavioral standpoint than Clinton. I still think it might be a far fetched issue, but any time you have someone that winds up dead with a gunshot wound to their head, it deserves to be investigated. Heck the Republicans have funded more investigations of Foster's death continuously way into Bush's term in office.

Currently for me, this story is more of an indictment of our press and the justice system, who DEFINITELY failed on this story than it is an indictment of Bush. But as we have more things investigated in an impeachment trial later of Bush, and other disclosed clandestine activities might show that Bush has other patterns and more potential for have been legitimately a suspect in this affair, that's where this story should be revisited. Unfortunately, since it was buried so quickly, there's probably little evidence that they can look at now.

Repeat again. Rape is a crime of VIOLENCE, not sex. Therefore, Clinton, who I would argue shows no history of violent aggression (and has probably one of the most sane kids of presidents in recent years in Chelsea) fits *less* the profile of a rapist than Bush does, who arguably has been rumored to be more out of control with his anger than Clinton has.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
150. John O'Neil, Gary Webb
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #150
152. I thought that my list would probably be incomplete
I did mention Gary Webb in my next to last section of the OP.

Since John O'Neil died in the WTC, even though I do believe that the Bush Administration was complicit in that, I have to believe that O'Neil wasn't the primary target. In any event, he could have lived, except for the fact that after he was out of the building he went back in to try to save other people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #152
155. don't forget Hunter Thompson!...n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
156. Ron Brown's death made me wonder
He was a hero for our party when it came to knowing the ins and outs of how to win a presidential election. Brown was to Clinton (in a good way) what Rove was to Bush (in an evil way). Small plane crash overseas took his life I believe. That was a huge blow to our party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
158. I'm locking this thread
This article includes several references to Rense & Whatreallyhappened, both disallowed sites.

proud patriot Moderator
Democratic Underground
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Apr 20th 2014, 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC