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Bad, bad news: Greenland's glaciers race towards the ocean.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 08:41 AM
Original message
Bad, bad news: Greenland's glaciers race towards the ocean.
Well, the bad news is the new corporate feudalism doesn't seem to be quite as brilliant as its lackeys would have us believe. The good news is CNN & other useless channels will have a ratings boom as those of us on higher ground watch coastal cities go under. Almost makes one wish we had a genuine Opposition Party willing to fight to prevent this sort of thing.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=5...

Greenland's glaciers have begun to race towards the ocean, leading scientists to predict that the vast island's ice cap is approaching irreversible meltdown, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

Research to be published in a few days' time shows how glaciers that have been stable for centuries have started to shrink dramatically as temperatures in the Arctic have soared with global warming. On top of this, record amounts of the ice cap's surface turned to water this summer.

The two developments - the most alarming manifestations of climate change to date - suggest that the ice cap is melting far more rapidly than scientists had thought, with immense consequences for civilisation and the planet. Its complete disappearance would raise the levels of the world's seas by 20 feet, spelling inundation for London and other coastal cities around the globe, along with much of low-lying countries such as Bangladesh.

More immediately, the vast amount of fresh water discharged into the ocean as the ice melts threatens to shut down the Gulf Stream, which protects Britain and the rest of northern Europe from a freezing climate like that of Labrador.

The revelations, which follow the announcement that the melting of sea ice in the Arctic also reached record levels this summer, come as the world's governments are about to embark on new negotiations about how to combat global warming.

more...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Nothing to worry about. I have ordered a Faith-based 'scientific' study
of this, and the results will be finalized just after the Apocalypse." -George AWOL Bush
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. SpiralHawk, I was wondering....
have any of your sources had any new comments about upcoming Earth Changes? They certainly seem to be developing...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Yes, check this out
http://www.chiron-communications.com/blog.html

I had the edification of sharing time this week with Hosteen Leon Secatero. We sat down together for lunch during an honoring ceremony held at the Albuquerque Museum in New Mexico.

Leon, an elder from the Canoncito Band of the Navajo, talked with me about the next 500 years, and also about the next five months.

(snip)
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't you understand? The Earth is cyclical
and that this happens so many times over several millions of years.

One of the few times that the fundies actually admit that the Universe is actually older than the computations as figured by the "biblical scientists" . . .
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Sooo...
we shouldn't be concerned, therefore, about the massive upheavals and displacements these changes will inevitably cause?

Or is my sarcasm meter busted? Sorry if it is. :shrug:
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I should have added
:sarcasm:

Sorry, I'd been away for a bit.

Yes, this was intended to be a sarcastic jab at all the righties who try to say that humans will never do anything enough to cause "global warming" - forgetting that Rush was belittling the liberals (at the time) for shrugging off Saddam's addition to the global warming issue, the burning of the Kuwaiti oil rigs, the effects which could be seen by the naked eye from the shuttle . . .
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Thanks for clarifying that.
I do sometimes see people here stating the obvious, that the planet goes through these climate changes of its own accord, as if that were an answer to the fact that human activity has affected those cycles in new and unpredictable ways. It's like, "Okay, thanks, but in the meantime how do we survive??"
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. I doubt seriously that there is enough water on Greenland to raise
the ocean 20 feet. Maybe 20 millimeters worldwide, but not 20 feet. And most of the rest of the ice in the Arctic is floating so if it melted it wouldnt raise the sea level 1 iota, much less flood London.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Maybe,maybe not, But it is a big chunk of ice.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Do you have anything other than doubt? BBC article suggests 23 feet.
It's always good to approach any claim with a certain amount of skepticism, but do you have anything that supports your doubts?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3607335.stm

Greenland's ice sheet could disappear within the next 1,000 years if global warming continues at its present rate, a report in Nature magazine suggests.

Jonathan Gregory and colleagues from the University of Reading, UK, say their studies forecast an 8C increase in Greenland's temperature by 2350.

They believe that if the ice cap melts, global average sea level will rise by about 7m (23ft).

Even if global warming was halted the rise could be irreversible, they say.

more...

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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I doubt it because the oceans are pretty damned vast
and to raise them all 20 feet is an ENORMOUS amount of water. Now, if we knew how many cubic miles of water there was on Greenland and then spread that over the entire surface of the worlds oceans.....


Perhaps they're right. I just dont think Greenland has enough water to do the job.

ANTARTICA....now THERE'S enough water. That is a massive continent with an ice cap miles and miles thick in some places.
Do i have anything other than doubt? No. But Jonathan Grgory and colleagues "believe that if the ice cap melts"..etc etc...

I have doubt. They have belief.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. "It can't happen here." - Frank Zappa
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 11:15 AM by SpiralHawk
And FEMA Misdirector Michael "heckuva job" Brown

Tropical Storm Epsilon Public Advisory #1 (NHC)


http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCPAT4+shtml/29 ...

000
WTNT34 KNHC 291505
TCPAT4
BULLETIN
TROPICAL STORM EPSILON ADVISORY NUMBER 1...CORRECTED
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL
11 AM AST TUE NOV 29 2005

CORRECTED 28TH TO 26TH NAMED STORM

...TROPICAL STORM EPSILON...THE 26TH NAMED STORM OF THE 2005
ATLANTIC SEASON...FORMS OVER THE CENTRAL ATLANTIC OCEAN...

AT 11 AM AST...1500Z...THE CENTER OF TROPICAL STORM EPSILON WAS
LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE 31.6 NORTH... LONGITUDE 50.4 WEST OR ABOUT
845 MILES...1360 KM...EAST OF BERMUDA AND ABOUT 1395 MILES...2245
KM... WEST OF THE AZORES ISLANDS.

EPSILON IS MOVING TOWARD THE WEST NEAR 8 MPH...13 KM/HR...AND THIS
GENERAL MOTION IS EXPECTED TO CONTINUE FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 45 MPH... 75 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 24 HOURS.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Here's A Simple Take On It
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 11:28 AM by ProfessorGAC
Without looking up the details, remember that the earth is about 70% oceans. So, if all the land masses (ALL OF THEM) were covered in 100 feet of ice, and it all melted and ran off into the oceans, then the oceans would rise approximately 30 feet.

Now, i don't know how thick those Greenland glaciers are, but clearly Greenland represents only a fraction of the total land mass. So, it'd have to be some enormously thick glaciers (which they very well may be) to raise the oceans 23 feet. (Let's say Greenland is 5% of the world's land mass, probably high, then the glaciers would have to be 2000 feet high. They might be, though. I don't know.)

At the same time, i think your estimate of a few millimeters is probably off the scale low.
The Professor
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You're right...millimeters is low, i grant you.....
This idea has been batted around for a long time.

I'm no climatologist and no mathematician but i am still skeptical.

What i am is a truck driver who has to fly back to LA from Florida now so i'll leave this discussion to you, Professor and those that have the time and inclination to find the facts.

I just don't have the time.

Have fun, folks.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Estimates at this link range from 1.5 to 2.3 kilometers thick.
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/EmmanuelleStJean.sh...

<edit>

Greenland, officially Kalaallit Nunaat, is the largest island in the world, lying mainly within the Arctic Circle off northeast Canada. It is a self-governing overseas division of Denmark. The capital is Nuuk (formerly Godthab). More than four fifths of Greenland lies buried under an ice cap that has an average thickness of 2.8 kilometers. The area of Greenland is about 840,000 square miles (2,175,000 square kilometers). It is about 1,650 miles (2,650 kilometers) long, with a maximum width of some 650 miles (1,050 kilometers). Its people, however, live only on the rocky coastal fringe, chiefly in the southwest.

more...

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks. That Would Seem To Be Enough
Of course, ALL of it would have to melt in order for my simple algebraic to explain the rise in oceans. Still, that is a lot of ice!
The Professor
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Just to show my ignorance,
I would never have guessed it was anywhere near that much. My fear is the Bush Administration is run by people who are about as well-informed as I am.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks. That Would Seem To Be Enough
Of course, ALL of it would have to melt in order for my simple algebraic to explain the rise in oceans. Still, that is a lot of ice!
The Professor
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. The worst case scenario is more than 10 feet.
http://www.abelard.org/briefings/global_warming.htm#wat...

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/C...

The EPA projects a 1% likelihood that sea levels will rise 15 feet by 2200. Partly because of expansion of the warmer water and partly because of ice melt.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Greenland's glaciers are 4% of the world's frozen fresh water.
Antarctica is 90%.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. There's still no snow on the ground here in Saskatchewan.
Farmers are still harvesting their crops. Usually we'd have a couple feet of snow on the ground. I don't have to go to Greenland to know something is fucked up.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. on the bright side
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 12:15 PM by pitohui
if the gulf stream is shut down and the oceans are cooler, maybe it will put an end to these hurricanes

maybe i'd better add this: :sarcasm:

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trekbiker Donating Member (724 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. 11% by volume of worlds glacier ice, 6m ocean rise
from what I've read 6 to 7 meters (20 to 23 ft) of ocean rise would happen if all of Greenlands ice melted. Average thickness of the Greenland ice cap is approx. 2 km (6,560 ft) and it covers nearly 90% of the land mass. Unlike the arctic ice cap it is almost all above sea level which is why it would raise the ocean level so much. The arctic floats on water and would have very little effect on ocean levels if it melted. The Antartic would have a tremendous effect on ocean level if it melted but due to earth orientation and other factors it is in much less danger of melting due to global warming.

I'm not a scientist but this info seems to be the majority consensus from the several sources I've seen.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-05 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
23. K & N n/t
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-05 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
25. To quote the last words from the Challenger's voice recorder . . .
Edited on Thu Dec-01-05 09:36 AM by hatrack
"Uh-oh".

We are in the shit now, and our delegate to the Montreal climate talks is lying through his teeth about how much the US has cut its emissions. Unbelievable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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