My response to a freeper anti-soldier email from a relative

[noahmijo]

He wrote HI FOLKS - -


I JUST RECEIVED THIS FROM AN OLD FRIEND AND BROTHER - A FORMER U.S. MARINE GUNNY SGT. WHO IS CURRENTLY FILLING A SECURITY CONTRACT IN IRAQ. I JUST HAD TO "PASS IT ON".


Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY.


BLACKJACK-21, OUT.


>Subject: Fw: Guns in DC
>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:57:58 -0600
>
>
>Subject: Guns in DC
>
>
>If you consider that there have been an average of 160,000 troops in the
>Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, and a total of 2112
>deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000.
>The rate in Washington D.C. (among others) is 80.6 per 100,000.
>That means that you are about 25% more likely to be shot and killed in
>our Nation's Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws
>in the nation, than you are in Iraq.
>
>Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Washington D.C.



I WROTE:


First of all you can't possibly believe the bullshit in this CHAIN LETTER. You are way too smart to believe this.

Because I'm too tired to write an essay as to how it's horrifically insulting to fallen soldiers and the fact that there is a war going on which has done nothing but cost American and innocent Iraqi lives and helped fan the flames of Sunni-Shia Civil War I'm just gonna rip this idiot a new one.

For starters the "statistics" are false and what's more appear to be written by a child.

As of Nov 13th there have been 2,061 American deaths. That's just the number that Central Command at least is releasing along with nearly 16,000 that is SIXTEEN THOUSAND that have been wounded.

In a war like this a "wound" consists of a hit from either a bullet or an IED therefore any type of wound received is the wheelchair b ound/life ending type.

At the current rate soldiers are dying DAILY.

Let's also not forget (like the author does) that a civil war is taking place which means shootings and explosions EVERY DAY, and COUNTLESS deaths are occurring from this.

This Civil War that is taking place has been taking place for over a 1500 years-and the squatter in the white house thinks that with a little shock and awe they'll lay down their arms and embrace the writings of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

Hell maybe they'll even donate to Pat Robertson. The shit he's saying lately he's gonna need the bail money.

Back to topic. I am calling this BlackJack character out. For him to not only be so far off on the death count, but in the midst of brutal warfare to have the time and peace to sit down and think "hmm maybe I'll write a short paragraph about how I'm glad I'm here in Iraq with everyone trying to kill me and not in DC....."

And that he would disrespect his fallen brothers by essentially calling their deaths meager compared to the crime rate of DC is just beyond belief.

But if he really exists I think he should send what he said to those who post at this site. Jesse Ventura (A staunch opponent of the Iraq War who has called Bush a facist and a coward-because that is what he is) is a major spokesperson for this site.

http://www.operationtruth.com /

C'mon use your head man.

But it works I guess. That's how the Republicans have the power that they have; ignorant yahoos who embrace this line of thinking who worry more about their guns being taken away than they do about the fact that people are dying everyday in this war which has made Americans LESS safer LESS well-off, their children (that's me) have inherited a nation in the deepest debt it's ever been, and guess what? ever wonder why China hasn't just jumped up and invaded us? they don't have to.

All they have to do is call us out on our loans which we owe to them-and guess what? you won't have to worry about succeeding from DC.

DC will go from the District of Columbia to the District of China. But see that doesn't matter to people who write chain letters like these because what's really important is that Intelligent Design is taught in school, and that we all get it through our heads that our biggest threat to freedom is boogeymen politicians whose sole goal is to take our guns away.

So please enough of this childish black and white yahoo type thinking. You're way too smart for this. Consider FACTUAL evidence that can be backed up. Stop repeating talking points that I hear from the crazies who truly believe that Christ would approve of mass murder, torture, and rape of children.

But I'll tell you what if you happen to meet your friend or anyone else who believes what you just sent me, that Iraq is safer than Washington DC, The Army has raised its required age to join the reserves to 39.

That is the age to enlist now, to be sent to Iraq is now 39 years old. (reservists from the Marines and The Army are being sent at will-some even on second tours already)

With all the support for the war from the so called conservative crowd how is it that the military is having a hard time recruiting especially now with a more age friendly requirement? do these people not believe in this war or in their fearless leader enough to encourage their children to join up?

Or better yet how about themselves.

[sui generis]

1. Yeah, half my Dad's side of family are skeert of me

they don't send me jeezus letters or kill-the-liberal jokes email any more since it turns out the liberal queer likes to tell it like it is and how he tells it is he doesn't much care for chain letters either and he'll tell you why each time. And hand you your pulsing liver when he's done.

These "clever" statistic filled letters are attractive because they're "clever" for people who have to borrow cleverness and don't question it. Gawd they hate being forced to question it by someone they know, but there is no reward without work.

If you can do it constructively and in plain language and without rancor this is what impresses them:

1. enumerated lists
2. statistics
3. cleverness that they can easily parrot without fucking up the punch line
4. an entity to assign blame to

They respect these things more than the content itself, so it's easy to use it back on them and get them thinking about their closely held prejudices. The downside is that they resent being forced to have to think and they like to kill the messenger, but they eventually do come around if you stick to the high road and don't let them get under your skin.

[Old Smokey]

2. I get horseshit email FWD:'s like this all the time.

I like your response. Good stuff.

[ThoughtCriminal]

3. Freepers can't do math

2118 over 22 months comes to an average of 970/year. With 160,000 troops that would be a deat rate of 606 per 100,000, not 60.

And where did they get 80 per 100,000 for DC?

"DC, by comparison, with nearly 600,000 residents, had 262 murders last year"
http://www.safestreetsdc.com/subpages/murdercap.html

That's about 43 per 100,000

So Iraq is 14 times more deadly than a city with the HIGHEST murder rate in the country.

No wonder they thought tax cuts wouldn't shoot the budget defecit. They can't handle decimal places.

REPLY ALL!

[MrMonk]

5. What he said ^ ^ ^ ^

Took me too long to find homicide data. BTW, note that your DC rate matches those that I found for ALL "homicides and police interventions".

[ThoughtCriminal]

9. At least I found where they got 80/100000

That was in 1991, (IIRC crime rates peaked everywhere in 91). last year there were 198 which would be about 33/100,000.

I also think they are using the peak US troop strength rather than an average. The death rate in Iraq may be closer to 700/100,000.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Are you sure?

I make 2118 x 12/22 = 1155 deaths a year. I'm afraid I think you may have assumed 10 months in a year. And that does give 720 deaths a year per 100,000 and 60 a month (he carefully doesn't mention that his statistic is per month, not per year).

I agree, his statistics for DC look rather suspect, though. To be comparing like with like, he'd need his 80 to be per month as well, and as I've observed in another post, that implies that 1% of the population is murdered every year (and that's not counting non-fatal attacks and the like).

Going with your statistic of 262 murders out of 600,000 we get a total of about 3.6 to compare with that 60.

So in fact, Iraq is 16 or 17 times more dangerous, not 14.

Anyone who lives in DC ought to go around with a bumper sticker reading "Come to DC - 17 times safer than serving in Iraq!"

[ThoughtCriminal]

10. Yes, I incorrectly took 22/24 instead of 24/22

and divided by 2.

Thanks

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. The fallacy

Is that the deaths of American troups are the principal reason for pulling out of Iraq.

It is a very, very clever chain letter, though. I confess that I hadn't thought about the death rate among American troups in that way before, and it will change the way I think about Iraq.

Is 1% of the population of Washington DC really killed by being shot every year, though? That's what his statistics seem to imply. If not, it might be worth pointing that out.

[noahmijo]

11. I can't get the link this instant but I did find stats to back up

that the rate given in the chain letter is not even close. It was more like 35 not 80.6

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. And remember,

To be comparing like with like, that 80 would have to be per *month*, not per *year*, which makes it even more improbable.

[warrens]

6. He forgot the 100,000 dead Iraqis

Oh, wait, they're brown people. But, then he can only count white deaths in DC.

[B Calm]

8. Great response.. Now if your relative will read and comprehend

your response...

Nominated for Greatest

[kay1864]

12. Freeper math vs. real math

(Hi all! First time poster)

So given all that math, here's your ready-made response:

If you consider that there have been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 720 per 100,000.

The rate in Washington D.C. is 43 per 100,000. That means that you are about 17 times more likely to be shot and killed in Iraq, than you are in our Nation's Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation.

Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Iraq.

[ThoughtCriminal]

13. Except I would also correct the DC rate

80/100000 was from 1991. In 2004 the rate was close to 33. Iraq has almost 22 times the firearm death rate of our "Murder Capital".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Washington,_D.C.

[kay1864]

15. 1991 statistic

Ah, so that figure (80.6) was from back in the "crime wave" of the early 90's ("Freakonomics", anyone?). And even using the 1991 statistic, Iraq is still 900% as dangerous...

Thanks for the more up-to-date info...I should've known to look in Wikipedia instead of Yahoo.

[ThoughtCriminal]

16. One more statistic

How many blogs and forums are pushing this BS?:

Google: "Iraq theater of operations during the last 22 months, and a total of 2112"

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-41,GGLD:en&q=Iraq+theater+of+operations+during+the+last+22+months%2C+and+a+total+of+2112

I get 559 hits.

[nickyt]

19. Welcome to DU, kay1864!

[yankeedem]

17. Please tell me you replied all

I find belittling freepers to be fun and educational for the others on the "to" list. Noone likes to be dressed down in front of their "friends".

I still think we ought to start these email chain letters- I am conflicted because of spam and all, but they seem to be an effective way of "indoctrinating" the masses.

[TexasLawyer]

18. Gun control laws

To focus on gun control laws for a moment: Gun control laws in Washington D.C. are for the most part merely symbolic, since Washington is a little bit of land surrounded by states having less restrictive gun laws. Crime guns in D.C. are likely to be "Imports" from other states.

An interesting factoid: Just 33% of crime guns recovered in cities subject to both licensing and registration laws were originally purchased from in-state gun retailers. By contrast, 72% of crime guns were of in-state origin when only one of these laws was in force; 84% of crime guns came from within the state when neither licensing nor registration statutes had been enacted.

http://www.futureofchildren.org/information2827/information_show.htm?doc_id=154453