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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:17 PM
Original message
New Yorker: "A DEADLY INTERROGATION"
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 12:21 PM by understandinglife
Can the C.I.A. legally kill a prisoner?
by JANE MAYER


Issue of 2005-11-14
Posted 2005-11-07

<clip>

The house belongs to Mark Swanner, a forty-six-year-old C.I.A. officer who has performed interrogations and polygraph tests for the agency, which has employed him at least since the nineteen-nineties. (He is not a covert operative.) Two years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanner’s custody, Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadi’s death as a “homicide,” meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and continues to work for the agency.

After September 11th, the Justice Department fashioned secret legal guidelines that appear to indemnify C.I.A. officials who perform aggressive, even violent interrogations outside the United States. Techniques such as waterboarding—the near-drowning of a suspect—have been implicitly authorized by an Administration that feels that such methods may be necessary to win the war on terrorism. (In 2001, Vice-President Dick Cheney, in an interview on “Meet the Press,” said that the government might have to go to “the dark side” in handling terrorist suspects, adding, “It’s going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal.”) The harsh treatment of Jamadi and other prisoners in C.I.A. custody, however, has inspired an emotional debate in Washington, raising questions about what limits should be placed on agency officials who interrogate foreign terrorist suspects outside U.S. territory.

This fall, in response to the exposure of widespread prisoner abuse at American detention facilities abroad—among them Abu Ghraib; Guantánamo Bay, in Cuba; and Bagram Air Base, in Afghanistan — John McCain, the Republican senator from Arizona, introduced a bill in Congress that would require Americans holding prisoners abroad to follow the same standards of humane treatment required at home by the U.S. Constitution. Prisoners must not be brutalized, the bill states, regardless of their “nationality or physical location.” On October 5th, in a rebuke to President Bush, who strongly opposed McCain’s proposal, the Senate voted 90–9 in favor of it.

Senior Administration officials have led a fierce, and increasingly visible, fight to protect the C.I.A.’s classified interrogation protocol. Late last month, Cheney and Porter Goss, the C.I.A. director, had an unusual forty-five-minute private meeting on Capitol Hill with Senator McCain, who was tortured as a P.O.W. during the Vietnam War. They argued that the C.I.A. sometimes needs the “flexibility” to treat detainees in the war on terrorism in “cruel, inhuman, and degrading” ways. Cheney sought to add an exemption to McCain’s bill, permitting brutal methods when “such operations are vital to the protection of the United States or its citizens from terrorist attack.” A Washington Post editorial decried Cheney’s visit, calling him the “Vice-President for Torture.” In the coming weeks, a conference committee of the House and the Senate will decide whether McCain’s proposal becomes law; three of the nine senators who voted against the measure are on the committee.

<clip>

Much more at the link:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051114fa_fact


Recently, Larry Johnson provided the following insights:

Secret CIA Prisons: Preemptive Strike or Surprise Attack?

by Larry C. Johnson

Dana Priest's Wednesday scoop in the Washington Post that the CIA has several secret prisons holding suspected terrorists in "friendly" nations, including some in the former Soviet Union and East Bloc, has folks legitimately outraged and wanting to ask tough questions. Based on preliminary checks I've made with folks who "know", the story is solid. What fascinates me in light of the Libby indictment, however, is who tipped her off? There are two likely scenarios:

Scenario One -- Priest was tipped by CIA personnel, most likely recently retired, who think Porter Goss is being far too accommodating of President Bush and Don Rumsfeld. The CIA wants to play tough with terrorists, but does not want to stray into the arena where the Agency can be accused of massive human rights violations. CIA officers who I know personally, who have been on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, are uniformly opposed to torture and alarmed by the push into the twilight zone beyond the Geneva Conventions. Yet, there are some CIA officers who are carrying out these orders without asking too many questions. The few remaining Grey beards who have been through previous scandals (Does the Church Committee ring a bell?) are legitimately worried that the acts committed in the name of fighting the war on terrorism will be used to further discredit what is left of the CIA. In other words, this was a preemptive strike by CIA officers not happy with Goss who want to put the Director on the defensive and stop his ongoing effort to politicize the Directorate of Operations.

Scenario Two -- Priest was tipped by NSC insiders who, angered over the Libby affair and paranoid that the CIA is trying to weaken the Bush Presidency, decided to drive a stake in the heart of the CIA. With the focus on the CIA trying to fend off Congressional investigators there is a chance that the focus on the outing of CIA officer Valerie Wilson will shift to the misdeeds of the CIA clandestine service.

My money is on Scenario One, but that is just an opinion.

More at the link including comments:

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/11/secret_cia_pris.html


No amount of spin will erase these crimes from the history of America.

What matters, now, is what we do to proscecute based on the fact that we have irrefutable evidence that the Executive Branch and members of the Legislative Branch of our government have authorized and participated in heinous crimes against humanity.


Peace.
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prescole Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. But wasn't it GOD who told us to do those things?
And GOD can't be wrong, can He?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I will not be satisfied until EVERY American involved in torture...
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 12:31 PM by mike_c
...stands in The Hague before an international tribunal to answer for crimes against humanity. Those bastards have dishonored us so badly that it will require GENERATIONS to erase their slime from America's legacy. U.S. laws like the one cited in the first article, which make torture effectively legal by shielding the torturer from legal consequences, demonstate the necessity of international prosecution.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hey, hey, hey! Knock that off. bush** told everyone that WE DO NOT
TORTURE. And we all know he wouldn't lie to anyone, don't we???????
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. ReddHedd at firedoglake: "What is Dick Cheney still trying to hide?"
<clip>

Or because the policies under which they have been operating since 9/11 have not even begun to come to light, and were implemented as a direct result of Cheney and his staff pushing them past the point that the American public could support? What is Dick Cheney still trying to hide?

<clip>

At this point, though, the question becomes how long can Cheney sustain the support to keep this hidden. He is losing support within the Administration by the day, as his influence over the President wanes in the wake of scandal after scandal emerging from the VPs office. And as other members of the Administration gain their footing and turn around the stab him in the back to advance their own agendas, including Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice.

<clip>

UPDATE: And the Preznit says, "Nuh uh. We aren't doing anything wrong." You buying it? Erm...didn't think so.

More at the link + comments:

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-pressure-tactics-something-more-to.html
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Clemons: "Is Bush's Claim that "We Do Not Torture" Believable?"
My short answer -- NO.

Steve C Clemons has more to say:

Not when your Vice President is seeking to exempt important organs of the U.S. government from the McCain provision that would ban any agent of U.S. interests from subjecting detainees under its control to "torture or inhuman treatment."

Reuters (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-07T162832Z_01_MOL755538_RTRUKOC_0_US-BUSH-TORTURE.xml) reports that Bush defended these exemptions with an assertion that we are bringing terrorists to justice in accordance with American law.

Bush seems to think that his personal assessment about what is within the interests of the United States should be good enough for the citizens of the United States. The problem is that the American public doubts the Bush team's truthfulness -- particularly after the lies and mistruths that Scooter Libby and Karl Rove offered to colleagues like Scott McClellan, Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, and the American public in the Valerie Plame outing case.

<clip>

More at the link:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001073.html


Most of our fellow citizens don't doubt Bush's truthfulness -- WE KNOW HE IS A FRIGGING, MURDERING LIER.


Peace.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Marjorie Cohn: The President and His Vice: Torturers' Puppetmasters"
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 01:15 PM by understandinglife
Monday 07 November 2005

The dots have finally been connected and the picture is not a pretty one. It is the face of the president of vice, Dick Cheney. The policies on the treatment of prisoners emanating from Cheney's office triggered the abuse and torture, according to Lawrence Wilkerson, former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff.

"It was clear to me that there was a visible audit trail from the Vice President's office through the Secretary of Defense down to the commanders in the field," Wilkerson, a former colonel, said on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition." The interrogation techniques sanctioned by Cheney "were not in accordance with the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and the law of war," Wilkerson declared.

Not coincidentally, Cheney has been lobbying Congress to prevent it from outlawing torture (which is already against the law, by the way). After Republican Senator John McCain secured 90 votes in the Senate to codify the prohibition against cruel, unusual, or degrading treatment or punishment, Cheney began to sweat. With CIA Director Porter Goss in tow, Cheney paid a visit to McCain and tried to convince the senator to allow an exemption for the CIA. McCain refused to legalize the CIA's ongoing illegal torture of prisoners.

<clip>

Only Bush and a few of his top officials, undoubtedly including Cheney, have known about the existence and situs of these "black sites," as they are called in classified White House, CIA, Justice Department and Congressional documents, according to Priest.

Much more at the link:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/110705I.shtml


Professor Cohn concludes with -- "Dick Cheney is right in the center of the Bush administration's government of dirty tricks."

And, Bush cannot escape, as Reagan did, because he has publicly lied, today, about the facts. Any attempt to "shield" him, as in the case of Reagan a la Iran-Contra, is already a non-option.

Bush, Cheney and all the other neoconster thugs will be charged and prosecuted for the criminals that they are.


Peace.


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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. TruthOut link to the Jane Mayer article in the New Yorker:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rosa Brooks: "Torture: It's the New American Way"
'We will bury you," Nikita Khrushchev told U.S. diplomats in 1956. The conventional wisdom is that Khrushchev got it wrong: The repressive Soviet state collapsed under the weight of its own cruelties and lies while democratic America went from strength to strength, buoyed by its national commitment to liberty and justice for all.

But with this week's blockbuster report of secret CIA detention facilities in Eastern Europe, cynics may be pardoned for wondering who really won the Cold War.

According to Dana Priest, the Washington Post investigative reporter who broke the story Wednesday, it all started on Sept. 17, 2001, when President Bush signed a secret executive order authorizing the CIA to kill, capture or detain Al Qaeda operatives.

There was only one problem: The CIA didn't know where to put the people it detained. Those detainees thought to be of "high value" needed to be kept somewhere … special. Somewhere impregnable, like Alcatraz. And somewhere secret, far from the prying eyes of reporters or Red Cross officials. Because these high-value prisoners - so-called ghost detainees - were going to be subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques."

That's Orwell-speak for what's known in English as torture.

<clip>

Much more at the link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-brooks5nov05,1,6287253.story?coll=la-news-comment&ctrack=1&cset=true

TruthOut link:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/110605C.shtml


No "plausible deniability" for Bush, Cheney or any of the other neoconster thugs for their heinous crimes.


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. dKos: "Interpreting the Washington Post: Cheney's Ass is Grass"
<clip>

But this leak serves the president's interests by distancing him from an increasingly unpopular and frankly failed policy. It also is sourced to multiple individuals, all of them on message, in many different government agencies. In other words, this looks like a coordinated campaign, giving Cheney the shaft and attempting to leave Bush smelling like roses.

The White House is getting desperate. They must be thinking that if they can contain the Fitzmas damage to the vice president's office, they might be able to get out of this alive. But the scales have fallen from the American public's eyes, Bush has lost his credibility, and the bad news about how he lied us into war just keeps piling up. Even if Fitz doesn't indict Rove -- and all the evidence indicates that he probably will -- Bush is going down.

The question is whether he will recognize that his is a failed presidency, and resign gracefully as Nixon did. Or, will he attempt to hold onto power at all costs, and provoke a serious crisis of governability in the United States?

Much more at the link in cluding lots of comments:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/7/82037/2390


We are on-track for the most significant Constitutional crisis in the history of America, as I hope more and more of you are beginning to realize.


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. "... the chain of disaster which is the public career of Richard Cheney."
Deconstructing Cheney

By James Carroll | November 7, 2005

THE INDICTMENT of the vice president's chief of staff for perjury and obstruction of justice is an occasion to consider just how damaging the long public career of Richard Cheney has been to the United States. He began as a political scientist devoted to caring for the elbow of Donald Rumsfeld. As a congressman, Rumsfeld had reliably voted against programs to help the nation's poor, so (as I recalled in reading James Mann's ''Rise of the Vulcans") it was with more than usual cynicism that Richard Nixon appointed him head of the Office of Economic Opportunity, the antipoverty agency. Rumsfeld named Cheney as his deputy, and the two set out to gut the program -- the beginning of the Republican rollback of the Great Society, what we saw in New Orleans this fall.

<clip>

The unsentimental Cheney, eschewing human rights rhetoric, was explicit in defining America's Gulf War interest as all about oil. (The oil industry having made Cheney rich.) Cheney's initiatives, more than any other's, defined the insult to the Arab world that spawned Al Qaeda.

<clip>

At world-shaping moments across a generation, Cheney reacted with an instinctive, This is war! He helped turn the War on Poverty into a war on the poor. He helped keep the Cold War going longer than it had to, and when it ended (because of initiatives taken by the other side), Cheney refused to believe it. To keep the US war machine up and running, he found a new justification just in time. With Gulf War I, Cheney ignited Osama bin Laden's burning purpose. Responding to 9/11, Cheney fulfilled bin Laden's purpose by joining him in the war-of-civilizations. Iraq, therefore (including the prewar deceit for which Scooter Libby takes the fall), is simply the last link in the chain of disaster which is the public career of Richard Cheney.

Link:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/11/07/deconstructing_cheney


And, then we have the little matter of Cheney being second only to W in the torture-in-chief enterprise.


Peace.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. Brad Blog: Bush Avoids Questions About CIA Leak and Secret Prisons
President refuses to support torture ban
Guest blogged by David Edwards President


Bush took a few questions while speaking today in Panama. While campaigning in October of 2000, Bush said "We will ask not only what...

Guest blogged by David Edwards



Windows Media format: http://www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/fox/fox_bush_panama_avoids_cia_leak_051107a.wmv

QuickTime format:
http://www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/fox/fox_bush_panama_avoids_cia_leak_051107a.mov



http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001984.htm



They'll be showing these clips at The Hague in the future.


Peace.

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. thank you for that excellent compilation of articles. My heart is heavy
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 02:55 PM by mod mom
knowing that this is being done in our name.

Just after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke I was one of several people who went to Rep Deborah Pryce's (R-Koolaid Drinker-OH) to express outrage. Her aide was quick to point out that no one in the administration supports these horrific actions. Blah, blah, blah. Just as bu$h's recent statement says "we do not support torture", the Republicans simply lie about the truth. Actions speak louder than words.

Funny how this weekend's protests were dubbed "Anti-American" by the complicit American MSM, while overseas they were called "anti-bush". The media has been complicit in keeping the truth from the American people. I only hope when the war crimes trials begin, we see quite a few media types on trial as well.

It is frustrating when the average American's most important weapon of disapproval-their vote, has been sold out by the Republican Party as they privatized our vote to their partisan cronies. We are in the fight for the soul of our democracy. This weekend I heard a Dr MLK Jr quote paraphrased that really hit home: it is not the action of bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people". How can the majority of Americans sit back and not be outraged to the point of action?

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. The media has been complicit in keeping the truth from the American people
In_deed. It was not an accident that the American media were explicitly charged by the World Tribunal on Iraq.

The entire world knows the major role US broadcast and print media have contributed to the malignant disinformation they've purveyed to the American people.


Peace.
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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Media types on trial
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 06:09 PM by EuroObserver
"I only hope when the war crimes trials begin, we see quite a few media types on trial as well."

With the support above all of US citizens, then yes, I believe eventually we will.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. "He's either outright lying or the administration has a very different ...
... definition of torture than the rest of the world. I would argue that it's both.

Let's go back to a Presidential Directive written by Al Gonzales and signed by President Bush on February 7, 2002:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/dir_20020207_Bush_Det.pdf

The glossy sheen of the directive was designed to give off the impression that the president was prohibiting the use of torture, but in fact, the wording is murky at best and, as a result, conveys a tone of "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" on the issue. Strange for an administration that prides itself on its either/or, good/evil international posture.

<clip>

These are just a few of many loopholes through which Cheney and Bush drive their thumbscrews. Let's face it, this directive is really the catalyst for the administration's torture policy – it allows Bush to tell the world: "We do not torture," even though he’s threatening to veto any legislation containing the anti-torture McCain Amendment and while Dick Cheney asks the Senate to allow the CIA significant latitude on the issue.

From It Depends On What Your Definition of 'Torture' Is... by Bob Cesca on November 7, 2005

Much more at the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/it-depends-on-what-your-d_b_10268.html


Torture is not an abstract or fuzzy concept -- Bush, Cheney and their fellow neoconster thugs will have ample opportunity for various judges and juries to explain that to them.


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. "Incommunicado detention forms inhumane treatment in and of itself"
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 02:27 PM by understandinglife
Prisoner Accounts Suggest Detention At Secret Facilities: Rights Group Draws Link to the CIA

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 7, 2005; A11

<clip>

"The cases of the three 'disappeared' Yemenis documented in this report . . . suggest that the network of clandestine interrogation centres is not reserved solely for high-value detainees, but may be larger, more comprehensive and better organized than previously suspected," the report says.

Such "incommunicado" detentions are against international standards but are consistent with recent reports of how the CIA operated its detention network.

Manfred Nowak, the U.N. rapporteur on torture, said in an interview last week that secret facilities are a particularly important issue because there is no outside oversight and no ability to know which detainees are in custody or where they are held. He condemned the practice.

"Incommunicado detention forms inhumane treatment in and of itself," Nowak said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/06/AR2005110601049_pf.html



Peace.

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick for the after work crowd.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this the means of execution...
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 04:21 PM by KansDem
...used by the Romans?

...he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated.

Same as nailing a condemned prisoner to a cross.

Christ! Have we become Rome? What irony! To kill using the same technique used on our "Lord and Savior..." What say, fundies?
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Dropping tens of thousands of "cluster bombs" in urban neighborhoods !!
The Office of Special Plans, the PNAC and the current war planners have all taken part in the torture AND KILLING of children, don't we get it yet?? The scant news coming out of our corporate news agencies is all part of the GIANT ARROW POINTING TO THE U.S., torture is rationalized for their own vile vengence. BECAUSE, hold on now, the usefulness of the information under torture is minimal and unreliable at best, WHILE PROVIDING TIT FOR TAT RATIONALIZATION FOR THE KILLING OF U.S. SOLDIERS AND INNOCENT IRAQI COLLABORATORS!
and THAT's why we all agree upon the fundamental necessity of the Geneva Accords against torture. why don't we get it?
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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. What about a possible 'shadow-CIA'
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 05:21 PM by EuroObserver
"The few remaining Grey beards who have been through previous scandals (Does the Church Committee ring a bell?) are legitimately worried that the acts committed in the name of fighting the war on terrorism will be used to further discredit what is left of the CIA."

--> What is left of the CIA. So, what is replacing the CIA?

ed: (taking shameless advantage of this thread) ref. the following (circumstantial) evidence: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2229812
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. Larry Johnson: "Man on Fire - NOT"
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 06:13 PM by understandinglife
I think Dick Cheney has been watching too many Hollywood flicks that glorify torture. He needs, instead, to get on the ground and talk to the folks he is ostensibly trying to empower to torture. Unlike Dick I have spoken with three CIA operations officers in the last three months -- all who have worked on terrorism at the highest levels -- and not one endorses torture or believes it will help us. In fact, they believe it will hurt us on many levels.

Two of my friends served in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 9-11. If the suicide bombing of the World Trade Centers was not enough justification for hooking Haji up to battery cables, I don't know what is. My friends recognized correctly that their mission was to gather intelligence not create new enemies. If you inflict enough pain on someone they will give you information, but, unless you kill them, they will hold a grudge. As far as the information goes there is no guarantee it will be correct. What real CIA field officers know from their work with actual sources is that whatever short term benefit can be derived from torture will be offset by the new enemy you have created. It is better to build a relationship of trust, no matter how painstaking, rather than gain a short term benefit that puts you on par with a Nazi concentration camp guard.

And that's the point. We should never use our own fear of being attacked as justification to dehumanize ourselves and another human being in our pursuit of so-called truth.

Much more at the link:

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/11/man_on_firenot.html


"We're losing our claim to being the City on the Hill as a beacon of light and hope to the world." -- in_deed, we are Larry, in_deed.

Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. Laura Rozen: "If he (Cheney) had been supporting the very same policies he
... is now advocating while representing a regime like Serbia's, the big man would be in a Hague jail cell. The same support for torture. The same naked contempt for democratic processes. The same contempt for law. The same contempt for their people.

As these new reports about the US committing torture at black site prisons under directives ruthlessly promoted by the vice president are printed on our front pages every day, (and how long can it be before there are new photos?), how long are Americans going to stand for it? When we are forced to confront the fact that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were not the exception, that have been taken care of, but the new rules of the game, how long?

More at the link:

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003007.html


They will not escape justice.


Peace.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. S Clemons: "Bush's View: It's Not Torture If There Isn't Organ Failure ...
... and Death

Chris Nelson has a dynamite commentary tonight in the much-sought-after but hard-to-get Nelson Report.

My obligations to Chris Nelson are growing as he allows me to share with you in the non-paying public excerpts (long excerpts) of his let-things-fall-where-they-will commentary on the big debates of the day.

Today, Nelson focuses on the White House's torture policy -- and he has some real zingers, including the view in the White House that various abuses short of organ failure and death do not constitute torture. Is this the "it's not sex if there is no intercourse" line of thinking?

If that notion of what is and is not torture is the prevailing attitude in the White House, then we really do have a rampage of immorality masquerading in grotesque and false righteousness at 1600 Pennsylvania.

Much, much more at the link including extensive transcript quotes from Nelson's program:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001075.html


"TORTURE. . .just ask yourself what it means for America that a topic head can have this title, and that will help explain why you see increasingly harsh denunciations of the President ..." -- one would hope so.

But, it has to go way beyond "harsh denunciation"; i.e., charge and prosecute the war criminals is the only responsible action.


Peace.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Churchill: "The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without
... formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgement of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist." -- November 21, 1943

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/11/07.html#a5752


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. NYT editorial: "Dick Cheney, the dark force behind many of the ...
... administration's most disastrous policies, like the Iraq invasion and the stubborn resistance to energy conservation. Right now, the vice president is devoting himself to beating back Congressional legislation that would prohibit the torture of prisoners. This is truly a remarkable set of priorities: his former chief aide was indicted, Mr. Cheney's back is against the wall, and he's declared war on the Geneva Conventions.

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/opinion/08tue1.html?hp


I'll let you read the rest of the editorial and suggest you ask yourself why they bothered writing the above three sentences given that their remedy is a joke.


Peace.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-05 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. Related-WaPo: "Cheney Fights for Detainee Policy" (wants "legal" torture):
Edited on Mon Nov-07-05 11:35 PM by Nothing Without Hope
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1906025
thread title (11/7): WaPo 11/7: "Cheney Fights for Detainee Policy" (wants "legal" torture)

A significant article coauthored by Dana Priest, the WaPo reporter who broke the secret CIA prison story discussed in the OP of the current thread. Also see the articles I am continuing to post in the replies to the "Cheney Fights fo Detainee Policy" thread. I'll cross-link to this thread there shortly.

Looks like we're seeing lots of hasty and very ill-fitting fake haloes and fingers pointing at "The Gang of Two" - Cheney and Rumsfeld. Interesting names come up in the article.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Thank you for providing the link, Hope.
Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. TruthOut: "Negroponte Won't Back Cheney on Torture"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/110805A.shtml

Looks like Mister death squad is mellowing with age ....


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. ReddHedd at firedoglake: "Oops! Can Frist Have A Mulligan?"
UPDATE #2: CNN confirming that it may have been Republican Senator and perhaps Republican staffers as well. Cheney was on Hill last Tuesday -- "everything in the story was said by Cheney" in the meeting. Blitzer calling it a "bombshell" story -- that the GOP may be investigating themselves. Lott saying that it could be an ethics investigation, "we can't keep our mouths shut" according to Lott. Reporting that Lott walked into a roomful of reporters and made the statements and left reporters "stunned."

More at the link:

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/11/oops-can-frist-have-mulligan.html


"everything in the story was said by Cheney" in the meeting. -- Remember that, everyone.


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. "See what happens when Rove loses his magic powers."
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Maybe McCain did a booboo on CNN, as well ....
CNN now. Ed Henry:

Trent Lott stunned reporters by declaring that this subject was actualy discussed at a Senate Republican luncheon, Republican senators only, last tuesday the day before the story ran in the Washington Post. Lott noted that Vice President Cheney was also in the room for that discussion and Lott said point blank "a lot of it came out of that room last tuesday, pointing to the room where the lunch was held in the capitol." He added of senators "we can't keep our mouths shut." He added about the vice president, "He was up here last wek and talked up here in that room right there in a roomful of nothing but senators and every word that was said in there went right to the newspaper." He said he believes when all is said and done it may wind up as an ethics investigation of a Republican senator, maybe a Republican staffer as well. Senator Frist's office not commenting on this development. The Washington Post not commenting either.


This morning on CNN, John McCain said he'd never heard of the "black sites" before the Post story. Oddly, the transcript isn't up yet.

-Atrios 4:18 PM

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_11_06_atrios_archive.html#113148475467778198


I think we all know McCain was at the meeting with Cheney ... hmmmm ... gotcha John ....


Peace.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Think Progress has the CNN Trent Lott report on QuickTime video:
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
33. Froomkin: "But if we don't torture, then why is the White House fighting
... tooth and nail against a law that would say as much? Why are those prison camps secret? And what are we to make of the widespread, documented practice of prisoner abuse? Bush wouldn't say. And he didn't take any follow-up questions.

Much more at the link to Bush's Tortured Logic:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/11/08/BL2005110800679.html


Good questions.


Peace.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
34. Jehl in NYTimes: Report Warned on C.I.A.'s Tactics in Interrogation
Edited on Tue Nov-08-05 10:42 PM by understandinglife
November 9, 2005

Report Warned on C.I.A.'s Tactics in Interrogation

By DOUGLAS JEHL

WASHINGTON, Nov. 8 - A classified report issued last year by the Central Intelligence Agency's inspector general warned that interrogation procedures approved by the C.I.A. after the Sept. 11 attacks might violate some provisions of the international Convention Against Torture, current and former intelligence officials say.

The previously undisclosed findings from the report, which was completed in the spring of 2004, reflected deep unease within the C.I.A. about the interrogation procedures, the officials said. A list of 10 techniques authorized early in 2002 for use against suspected terrorists included one known as waterboarding, and went well beyond those authorized by the military for use on prisoners of war.

The convention, which was drafted by the United Nations, bans torture, which is defined as the infliction of "severe" physical or mental pain or suffering, and prohibits lesser abuses that fall short of torture if they are "cruel, inhuman or degrading." The United States is a signatory, but with some reservations set when it was ratified by the Senate in 1994.

The report, by John L. Helgerson, the C.I.A.'s inspector general, did not conclude that the techniques constituted torture, which is also prohibited under American law, the officials said. But Mr. Helgerson did find, the officials said, that the techniques appeared to constitute cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under the convention.

More at the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/politics/09detain.html?ei=5094&en=50d901027e61366e&hp=&ex=1131512400&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print


Not to be picky, or anything, but since when did "... cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under the convention..." behavior become something less than torture. This is sorta like Bush's giving the go-ahead as long as "organ failure and death" are not the result.

Just wait until some Blackwater merc or US Marine is captured and given the "... cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment ..." and watch Rush convulse and Cheney screech -- "TORTURE!!!"

It Is Tribunal Time in the United States of America, NOW.


Peace.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-05 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
35. This thread is an excellent resource. Here's a VIDEO clip from Olbermann:
Thanks for your hard work, UL. I know how much work is entailed, and it does take a major commitment. So important to gather the documentation and reports in these critical, historic times. I hope that there are thousands of bookmarks to this page around the country. it merits it.

Don't miss this Countdown VIDEO clip on Reid's demand for a statement that there will be no Libby pardon and blasting Cheney for his evil doings. The clip then moves on to the amazing WH press conference with reporters trying to get Scotty to say something true about the newly revealed secret CIA prisons and the VP's push to exclude the CIA from torture limitations. At one point, he tells the reporters that they should pose their questions at the VP's office and a sharp, well-spoken reporter jumps on the obvious implication and asks if this means that the VP is independent. The WH spin is not convincing. Helen Thomas is in the center of the fray, where she belongs. Scotty is no match for her, and when he claims to be speaking for the American people as oppposed to her, it is just sickening. What a toxic little wart he is.

Amazing - here's the VIDEO CLIP at Can-o-fun. It's streaming Windows Media:
http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/demandinganswersnov805.wmv

(The home of Can-o-Fun is http://www.canofun.com/blog/default.asp )

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
36. Former CIA general counsel Jeffrey H. Smith on why the Bush administration
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 01:03 AM by understandinglife
... proposals to exempt the CIA from the McCain anti-torture amendment should be rejected:

... Cheney and Porter Goss, director of the CIA, have proposed a modification of the McCain amendment that would permit the president to exempt the CIA from its strictures. McCain wisely rejected that proposal. So should the conferees.

<clip>


<clip>

Update: I was in a torture chamber once, in the basement of a police station in Kosovo days after it was abandoned by Serb forces defeated by Nato. It was hideous as you would imagine. The British soldiers who were with me were equally shocked. I just associate such activities with the forces of not only the pathological and depraved, but those who are headed for defeat. If you've seen it, you realize in a way that's hard to explain, it's the tactics of the losers. If Cheney and his office mates haven't had the experience, perhaps they should.

Posted by Laura at November 8, 2005 11:03 PM

More at the link:

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003027.html


Sane, ethical folk just don't dig torture, dickie and dubya.


Peace.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
37. kick n/t
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks UL
for pulling this all together so that people can see the big picture here.

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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. The entire Bush Regime are criminals.


Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act. Rumsfeld also admitted to signing orders for tougher interogation methods which violated the Geneva Conventions.

Rumfailed has commited at least three violations of the Geneva Convention thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.

The US, Govt., Congress, and the Justice Dept no longer abide by the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the USA.
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