I'm on my Republican Congressman Youth Advisory council and I need DU Help

[Terran1212]

Hi, I'm a 17 year old in Georgia, and I've always had a little affinity for radical politics (your zinn and chomsky for one; I supported Nader in 2004 )

I'm on Congressman Tom Price's youth council. He's a stark anti-illegal and anti-tax advocate, and he's been in the US House for a few months, and it seems to be the topics he's most interested in.

I still remember the ridiculous rhetoric he had in his opening presentation two months ago, and I regret not showing any dissent to him there.

Since then I've met again with our youth advisory group (but not him -- his female director held the meeting), and I volunteered to take the opposition stance on a Fair Tax discussion next month.

I know I live in about the second-most Republican district in the nation, but I'm still surprised at how he's managed to gather the students that agree with him most. Few students in my group or the other two strongly disagree with the Neoconservative agenda as much as me.

Is it possible for you guys to help me with my Anti-FairTax arguments? I know for sure the psuedo-secretary and my group will be there next time, but Mr. Price might even make the meeting -- and it will be hard as hell debating against him.

I checked out the Boortz book; I hate the massive reduction of taxes on wealthy, but the prebate idea counters are argument that the tax might be regressive; it looks as if they aren't radical enough to slam the poor without relief.

I need help from DU to kill this thing. Rep. Price is one of the few consponsors of this radically free-market bill, and if I can take on our youth advisory council and win the debate, I can maybe get to him and his Party agenda as well.

So, any help would be great.

Thanks!

[Armstead]

1. Not sure what "Fair Tax" means but....

...if it's based omn the claim that progressive taxation is unfair, that'e easy to refute.

The more money one makes, the less impact a particular percentage has on your quality of life.

For example, to use very round numbers, if someone is making $100,000 a year, a ten percent tax is $10,000, leaving them with $90,000.

If someone is making $10,000 a year, a ten percent tax is $1,000. Although that is a smaller number, the impact on that person's real-world income is proportionaly much more than it is to the person making $100,000 a year.

Put another way, you can live quite well, and only need to trim some extraneous expenses, to live on $90,000 a year compared to $100,000. However, to someone making $10,000 a year, losing $1,000 has a much bigger impact on their ability to cover the most basic essentials like food, heat and rent.

Likewise, when one is making $1 million or $1 billion, they may be paying more actual taxes. However, the actual affect on their ability to maintain a millionaire's lifestyle is relatively modest, comp

[Terran1212]

2. The "it helps the poor argument"

According to your income level, you recieve a "prebate" of money on sales taxes, so the 23% doesn't hit you hard on essentials.

[patdem]

4. So only the poor needs to file for tax relief? WOW...bet they think many

will not file, the poor being among the most unlikely to apply for a rebate since many are illiterate? WOW...what a con! I think that is why the are called republiCON's?

[Armstead]

5. Is a "Fair Tax" a national sales tax?

As I mentioned initially, I'm not sure what you were referring to as the Fair Tax alternative. I also used extreme numbers just to keep in the divisible-by-ten mode.

A national sales tax -- or uniform tax rate -- would still be unfair, even if some protections for "the poor" were built into it.

In a larger sense the same theory still applies, as it would also hit the middle class harder than the upper classes. It would also hit the lower-upper class harder than the upper-upper class.

The same dynamic applies. The more money you have, the more of a percentage yiou can afford to give up to taxes. The less money you have, the harder it is to give up the same percentage.

[Terran1212]

7. 23% National sales tax and repeal of 16th Amendment

The Boortz book...

[Armstead]

8. Okay, -- That's easy.

Does your average blue collar worker really want to be paying the same taxes on a bag of groceries or a car or whatever as a rich guy?

[Terran1212]

9. But remember, it "Helps everyone" by removing tax burdens

And less complicated tax forms (as in none at all)?

[Armstead]

11. It merely transfers tax burdens

The same amount of money has to be raised to pay for the government.

The take-home pay might be more, but the cost of everything will go up dramatically to compensate. Plus, state sales taxes are not likely to disappear.

It's also going to hurt the economy, by inhibiting consumption. It will be the "over the line" nudge for many items that takes them from affordable to unaffordable.


And -- once again -- the impact on people making less will be comparatively more than on people making more.

[Terran1212]

12. But you effectively get "100% of your check" back, so wouldn't that

balance it out?

Honestly, I wish I had Boortz's book in front of me (I'd never buy anything by him, though -- I'm #124 on my library's waiting list for the book...), so I could remember more of the argument.

[Armstead]

15. Like I said -- It's just a shell game

The national sales tax would have to be exhorbitant in order to raise the same amont of money.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize what people are going to feel like if the cost of everything suddenly spikes to the extent that would be necessary for that plan to work. And how they are going to stop buying many items, or go down a notch in what they buy.

And again, it is regressive. It is not "fair." It is the opposite of fair. If you are making $70,000 a year and have to pay another $30 for a bag of groceries, that's going to hit you a lot harder than someone who is making $700,000 who is paying the same increase.

[EC]

17. From the commerce side, sales would go down

and all that follows with lack of sales...

[Oilwellian]

3. You might find this website helpful

http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/LiberalFAQ.htm

[Terran1212]

6. Thanks for the help, but I'd also like specific arguments against Fair Tax

This Fair Tax thing is becoming really popular all over Georgia (hell, Price's secretary gave one of the girls in my group a copy of the book signed by both Boortz and Georgia Congressman Linder), and it's dangerous if this style of plan gets introduced more powerfully into the Congress.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. Try some of these articles:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=site:www.commondreams.org+fair+tax+2005

Good luck! :hi:

[Terran1212]

13. Thanks

CommonDreams is always a good rescue : p

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Yes indeed. :^D

[MissWaverly]

19. How Fair is your "Fair Tax"

Here in Maryland our Governor passed the "flush tax" to clean up the Chesapeake Bay. Now everyone's sewer bill will be raised to help pay for it. My sewage bill went from $19.00 a month to $48.00 a month. Now this sounds really fair but this means that the large poultry businesses whose runoff is going into the Chesapeake do not pay their fair share to clean up the bay. What will happen is that the companies in your state will be more likely to shut down local plants and move overseas where there is no sales tax and the goods will be cheaper. The fair tax is yet another attempt to move
the burden of taxes from corporations and the wealthy elite and on
to the backs of the workers of America.

[Terran1212]

27. 19-48?

Wow...

[TheFarseer]

14. One argument you could use

Why would you go to a store and buy anything when you will be charged perhaps a 50% sales tax on it? You won't! Black markets will develop to get around this tax. I'm picturing something like prohibition. Meanwhile, those retailers will go out of business. Our economy will revolve around sale tax avoidance smuggling and legit retailers will be out of business.

[Terran1212]

26. Look at Boortz's economic gems: Evacuate Rich First, poor not worth it

http://mediamatters.org/items/200510140006

Boortz: Faced with an impending national disaster, "we should save the rich people first"

Click Play to listen to this audio clip
Problems? Download this clip here
On the October 14 broadcast of his daily radio show, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz stated that if the country is faced with an impending national disaster, it should make it a higher priority to save rich Americans rather than poor Americans.

An October 13 New York Daily News article spurred Boortz's comments. The front-page story, headlined "Rich Got Terror Tip," reported that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has launched an investigation into whether its officials alerted certain New Yorkers of a terror threat to the city's subway days before the rest of the city learned of the possible plot. According to the article, the probe was launched after the discovery of two emails describing the bombing plot that "had been sent early last week to a select crowd of business and arts executives by New Yorkers who claimed to have close connections to Homeland Security."

After summarizing the story, Boortz responded, "This is as it should be." He went on to imagine a scenario in which the country is forced to "set some priorities" regarding who will be notified of an impending disaster. "We should save the rich people first," Boortz declared. "You know, they're the ones that are responsible for this prosperity." Boortz described the poorest Americans as "a drag on society" and stated that they "don't achieve squat. They sit around all the time waiting for somebody else to take care of them. They have children they can't afford. They're uneducated. They can barely read."

[el otro soy yo]

18. This organization might have useful info for you

http://www.faireconomy.org/about/index.html

You could try e-mailing them if there's nothing specific to "fair tax" on their website.

[newyawker99]

20. Hi el otro soy yo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[applegrove]

21. Remind him that the repuke plans for illigal immigrants not being given

Amnesty but "guest worker" documentation will allow the corporations in American to stay ahead of the "worker's market" that would have developed in 2014 when the boomers retire. For sure every worker in America will be needed and wages would have risen. Oil prices will be rising, cost of goods will be going down and because they have plans for "guest workers" who come to the USA to work, & keep wages of all workers down, and pay taxes while they are here, and don't get anything out of the system, and don't get to vote... well these are their plans as corporate ceos. Since oil will be going up in price, the ceos desperately want to fight inflation on the backs of the workers and wages going down (and cost of some goods or even food if Africa gets fair access to world markets - cost of goods will go down). Well - what the hell are rich people doing in this situation. What the hell is their sacrifice.

Guest worker programs will make the American worker face an employers market in perpetuity because all American workers will have to face an employers market instead of one that is short of workers and favors workers.

So the workers are giving up much. By being forced to compete with guest workers and workers from all over the world. These people are all paying taxes. And fighting inflation.

What the **** are the rich doing? Other than ensuring fewer AMERICAN WORKERS WHO CAN VOTE.

What the fuck are the rich doing as their part in the community of communities under the GOP plans.

What are they sacrificing?

They are just getting nuttier and nuttier and manipulating the markets to suit themselves and the voting lists.

And transfering the burden of fighting inflation to American workers. The shortage of workers will be so great in 2014 to 2035, that each and every one of the 10 million illigals will be in great need. Making them Americans would not hurt the labour market.

But this will not be allowed to happen. All the 10 million will be thrown back in a pool of people from "all over the world" that American workers have to compete with for jobs and thus keep wages lower. We are talking about the jobs here that can only be done in American - not outsourcing.

So the fight against oil inflation is on the backs of American workers, illegals whose work is desperately needed.

What are the uber rich giving up in thei perpetual market world..where inflation is fought on the backs of the middle class and the poor (and the poor don't suffer from inflation if they are chronically jobless - because they don't have money). THe rich are the ones whose markets have to wind down for a few cycles if inflation gets too hot.

So the rich get perpetual markets and poor and middle class wage earners fighting inflation on their behalf. And the guest workers pay taxes and the wage earners pay taxes. But the rich do not pay taxes in any fair way.

What are the rich sacrificing under this immigration and taxation policy? Cause under the GOP plans.. everyone else will be sacrificing "a worker's market", by fighting inflation with lower wages, etc. What are the rich doing? What is their contribution to society? They have not even paid for this dam war?

[nomatrix]

22. the president's Advisory Panel on Tax Reform

SIMPLIFIED INCOME TAX

Individuals:
Create four tax brackets of 15, 25, 30, and 33 percent, down from six brackets with a top rate of 35 percent.
Consolidate personal exemptions, standard deductions and child tax credits into a Family Credit of $3,300 for married couples, $2,800 for single taxpayers with children, $1,650 for single taxpayers, $1,500 for a child and $500 for other dependents.
Replace deduction for mortgage interest with credit for all homeowners, whether they itemize or not, equal to 15 percent of interest paid with regional limits ranging from $227,000 to $412,000.
Eliminate deduction for state and local taxes.
Give all taxpayers a deduction for charitable contributions that exceed 1 percent of income.
Limit tax breaks for employer-provided health insurance to $11,500 a family, or $5,000 an individual.
Simplify tax breaks for savings.
Eliminate Alternative Minimum Tax.
Eliminate tax on dividends paid by U.S. companies.
Exclude 75 percent of capital gains from U.S. companies for a top tax rate of 8.25 percent.
Tax all interest payments as regular income.

Business:
Reduce top tax rate from 35 percent to 32 percent.
Eliminate corporate Alternative Minimum Tax.
Eliminate tax on active business overseas.

www.taxreformpanel.gov

[nomatrix]

23. Here's their second suggestion

MODIFIED PROGRESSIVE CONSUMPTION TAX
Individuals:

Includes all of the Simplified Income Tax Plan except:
Create three tax brackets of 15, 25, and 35 percent.
Tax investment income from dividends, capital gains or interest at 15 percent.

Business:

Reduce top business rate to 30 percent.
Allow upfront expensing for all new investments, replacing depreciation allowances.
Eliminate deductions for interest paid or received except for financial institutions.

[nomatrix]

24. Are you picking one to argue or both?

I'm not sure if this is even what you are asking.

[Terran1212]

25. I'm unofficially declared to research and argue against the Fair Tax

^