A Discussion with Mark Crispin Miller

Today we are very excited to host an online discussion with Mark Crispin Miller.

Mark is a professor of media ecology at New York University. Some of you may remember him from our online discussion on Democratic Underground in May of 2002. He is well known for his writings on all aspects of the media and for his activism on behalf of democratic media reform. He has written a number of books, including Boxed in: The Culture of TV, The Bush Dyslexicon: Observations on a National Disorder, and Cruel and Unusual: Bush/Cheney's New World Order. He writes regularly on his blog, News From Underground.

Mark has a brand new book about the 2004 election, Fooled Again: How the Right Stole the 2004 Election, and Why They'll Steal the Next One Too (Unless We Stop Them).



This discussion is going to be pretty informal. Mark has some book signings and other events today, so he might be checking in a few different times throughout the day, and he is not going to be able to answer every question that is posted here. He will pick the questions that he considers most relevant and answer those. All DU members are welcome to participate. If you have a question or topic that you would like to discuss with Mark, just click "Reply" on this message to post it.

This is a great opportunity for the members of Democratic Underground. If necessary we will moderate this thread, and we expect anyone who participates in this discussion to do so respectfully.

Mark, thank you so much for being with us. To start, I will post the first question, which will appear as a response to this message.

David Allen
"Skinner"
DU Administrator

Welcome to DU. Please tell us about your book.

Hi, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. Many warm thanks, Stephanie, for making this happen.

The scandal of last year's election never resonated as it should have done, because the national Democrats AND "the liberal media" refused to face, or even to discuss, the facts. We very badly need electoral reform, but we won't get it if that mammoth scandal doesn't finally resonate. My aim in writing Fooled Again was to lay out the evidence that Bush & Co. stole their so-called "mandate," so that the scandal might at last resound, so that we'll all be motivated to repair the system. If we don't, it seems to me, we're really cooked.

Let me add that I myself am not a Democrat but a proud independent. This is not a partisan endeavor but a crucial civic issue. There's evidence that many a Republican did NOT vote for Bush/Cheney in 2004. Those folks too were disenfranchised, along with countless voters on the other side.
I await your questions/comments.

has fallen apart so quickly. When Bush commented after the election that "he earned capital" and he was going to use it, it sounded like gallows humor. If he had so much capital, he wouldn't have needed to trumpet it.

.

for Dean and the DNC indicates that they have come up with a plan to get access to the voting machines and the people who program the machines as the best way to expose the malfeasance?

Some of us noticed that Dean was recruiting really smart, savvy candidates, and that Cameron Kerry is running for the position in Massachusetts. My gut tells me this is an essential part of a greater plan to open up the machines to public scrutiny.

Any insight to share?

Given what has happened so far with the Bush administratio9n, what do you foresee for the future?
Will the neo-conservatives have a final triumph, or will liberalism make a resurgence?
Or neither of the above?
Best guesses, please, and thanks for participating!

Bruce

Bruce, liberalism will make a resurgence; or, rather, it is resurgent already, although many liberals out there don't know they're liberals. It's an odd situation. The word itself is now pejorative, thanks to the far-right propaganda drive that's overwhelmed our politics and culture for last few decades. So folks are often quick to say that they're not liberals——but their politics, on nearly every score, ARE, by any definition, liberal: economically, environmentally, on foreign policy, on healthcare, abortion rights, you name it.

Because the word has been so badly tarnished, I'd prefer to say that our Enlightenment ideals will re-assert themselves. I deem myself a follower of Jefferson and Paine. The world-view of those framers will prevail, if we promote it and defend it just as zealously as BushCo has attacked it.

Welcome to DU, Professor.

NGU.

think of themselves as being 'moderate' because they are progressive but don't believe in extreme actions as 'Liberals' keep being labeled.

I haven't read your work so excuse me if this has been covered.

It appears that the news media in this country all follow the very first wire report written on an event or an issue. Is it really that cut and dry? and does the right really have packaged ready to go versions of what I just saw ready to go (it would appear that they do)?

Jeff
Richmond Va.

If they do follow the first wire report on an event or issue, how does that effect the story the public gets about the issue from both national and local media?
Where do you think this "herd mentality" comes from? Do you think media consolidation has anything to do with it? (Parent company uses the first wire story and before you know it it's trickled down to my local paper/tv station and everyone everywhere is repeating the same line.)

I haven't had the chance to read your books yet so please forgive me too if you've already answered these questions elsewhere.

Thanks for your time.

Your name caught my attention. You don't have any kin with the name of teaching down in Southern California, by chance do you? I have a tacher named John Pippin and wondered if you may be related. I'm guessing porbably not, but just curious. Sorr, probably too personal, don't gotta answer if you don't want. =)

I just made it up because it was the first thing that popped into my head when I signed up here. Nice to meet you anyway though.

I like that name Pippin... Like the Hobbit... Marian Pippin

The MSM, moreover, will certainly not follow any story that it's disinclined to follow, however hot it may appear. Every day amazing pieces come from the Associated Press, with no follow-up whatsoever. AP did a good story on the GAO report on electronic touchscreen voting machines. There was no follow-up at all.

Just want some tangible ideas for Democrats and other concerned citizens.

The first thing to do is to campaign relentlessly, in every way at hand, to get the scandal of last year's election on the national radar screen. Unless we do that, all our policy suggestions will mean nothing.

As we do that, though, we should also be resisting the proliferation of touch-screen voting machines sold by private vendors——Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia——and agitating on behalf of paper ballots, unless and until we learn about a tamper-proof computer-based system (if such is possible). That would be a local matter, by and large. We also should be working very hard to get the Voting Rights Act renewed completely. (The Busheviks want to remove certain provisions from it, so that it can then be junked by the Scalito Court.) And we must support Rep. Jesse Jackson III's call for a constitutional amendment formally confirming every adult American's right to vote, and establishing a uniform federal voting system. We should also enable same-day registration, extend the voting period to, say, a week, advocate for Instant Run-off Voting (IRV), and do whatever else it take to make the system truly democratic.

The media is going to be a huge hurdle, but your book will be helpful in opening necessary discussion. I hope we can get this on the "national radar screen" as you suggest as that would appear to be key.

Thank you!

Long story short: I went through a phase of strong belief in fraud, then a phase of serious doubt. I haven't kept up with the "election fraud" news.

Anyway, I just learned that ES&S scanners are used in my rural California county. Our county is one of the few in California that uses machines from these vendors. I believe they were used in the 2004 election. At the time, I heard rumors of many, many problems. Can these companies' scanners also be used to steal an election or create fallacious results?

or an event, that you can identify as the one that spurred you to write on this topic?

Thanks.

was Election Day, and the huge screaming gap between the propaganda ("It's all gone really well!") and what was really happening coast to coast.

doing something about it!


I remember back in 2001 when you were to be on c-span to talk about "The bush Dyslexicon"..I can't exactly remember but it seems like it was cancelled because of 9/11.

Anyway we've come along way since only 10% didn't buy into the bush dictatorship but so much more to go. Thanks again, for writing this very important book so we won't get "FOOLED AGAIN"!

"NO DOUBT THIS TIME!"

Manipulative piece of crap.

Praise: Loved the Harpers' article! Thank you!

My Question: Do we have the votes? Are you convinced that all of the fraudulent actions stole the election from Kerry? Do you estimate numbers of votes stolen in your book?


Also, MCM - Stephanie said that you wanted the link for the Petition to keep Marc Maron on Morning Sedition:

Petition to Keep Marc Maron on Morning Sedition

More Contact Information for Danny Goldberg at AAR - A call from Mark Crispin Miller might get Goldberg's attention.

It's very hard to come up with precise figures. That's the problem. But consider, for example, that the Census Bureau came out in late May with an astounding revelation. According to their survey, 3.4 million more Americans claimed to have cast ballots in 2004 than the official toll of those who voted. So maybe some of them were lying. OK, let's say half were lying. That still leaves some 1.7 million votes that somehow never got recorded.

And that number does not include those (countless) voters who knew very wll that they could not vote, or even register. And neither of those sums include those US citizens abroad who tried and failed to vote. (The last chapter of Fooled Again is all about Bush/Cheney's interference with the expatriate vote, which includes up to 7 million ballots.)

Put it all together, and what does it spell? "IT CAN HAPPEN HERE, AND DID."

And EVERYONE out there, PLEASE contact Air America, and urge the board NOT to allow the cancellation of Marc Maron's show!!!

"And that number does not include those (countless) voters who knew very well that they could not vote, or even register."

Umm...

If they knew that they could not vote or register (vs. simply choosing not to do so), then I must assume that they were ineligible to vote. How is it that someone who couldn't have voted anyway could have affected the outcome of the election (other than campaigning, etc.)?

Not because they were ineligible. They were eligible, and yet could not register or vote.

to effect the voting reforms that are necessary to assure free and fair elections?
Thank you Mr. Miller.

Why do you hate America?

I wanted to ask you: What is your proposal to deal with companies such as Diebold, ES&S, Triad, and others that "hack the vote"?

Thanks for coming to DU Professor Miller. Please come back again and talk about "Cruel and Unusual: Bush/Cheney's New World Order." I bet there are students here eager to discuss it.

for ELECTION FRAUD. what's the appropriate weight to give exit poll discrepancies in the on-going debate?

and (follow-up)

Do you have a response to EXIT POLL DISCREPANCY deniers; those who claim we either don't have all the information yet, or that we don't understand the numbers.

Thank you -- and I just have to say... everyone we've loaned your Patriot Act video to has compared you to the late Spaulding Gray. We look forward to more monologues.

Brook in Nashville.

what's the appropriate weight to give exit poll discrepancies in the on-going debate?

A friend from Canada who felt he had more exit poll data than the US did called all of his friends here on election day to tell us Kerry was going to win. I believe I also saw a graph here showing that the exit poll/final result discrepancies were all in states with electronic voting machines. It seemed to me this was a crucial bit of data that the election had been stolen. Was it also crucial to your analysis?

Thanks for participating.

Alice
Oakland, CA

(dang -- i'm having trouble getting it to view large)

That might be the one I was thinking of.

If there hav been such a last second flip in a Venuselan Election and Hugo Chaves had won, you know the US would be crying foul.

although the issue is extremely complicated. Let me recommend the writings of Steve Freeman at the University of Pennsylvania. He has a book, co-written with Joel Bleifuss, coming out from Seven Stories in a month or so. A must-read. Steve is expert on the subject of those polls. He's debated Warren Mitofsky, who came off the worse for it.

Numerous states have enacted "paper trail" laws. Will such laws be sufficient to protect our votes? If not, what other actions do you suggest should be taken?

Certainly it's better to have paper trails than none, but the mere existence of such disparate slips of paper is no panacea. I think that thre should be a paper BALLOT, so that the ballots can be stored indefinitely and counted or recounted as required. The TruVote machine looks like a very good idea. (That's the company whose CEO was evidently Silkwooded last year.)

I'm sorry that I can't stay long, but I wanted to at least give a high recommendation to "Fooled Again." As with all of Mark's books, it is exhaustively researched, insightful, and has teeth. Mark does cite a couple of my studies including the "Unofficial Audit of the NC Election" that initially appeared here at DU. I'm deeply honored to be included, but it makes it even better for I have read and respected Mark for years. To paraphrase Van Morrison (the way I like to hear it), "If you pull your punches, you don't push the river." Mark pushes the river.

"Cruel and Unusual" is the benchmark for me in getting at who these people are and what partially concealed agenda they seek. It's an important book. Likewise, "Fooled Again" pulls together the many-pronged RNC attack on the election process and exposes it in a way that is hard to marginalize. That is critically important because the culprits utilize marginalization of facts to elude media focus and cover their trail. They'll say... "but there were reported electronic discrepancies that favored Kerry too. See, it all amounts to much ado about a few electronic glitches." But, in fact, if you look at the EIRS data, the electronic vote switching favors Bush by a ridiculously large percentage. It is also interesting to see how often these reports are centered in minority districts. To have someone of Mark Cripsin Miller's credentials to not be fooled by the marginalizations and not carry the comfortable disdain for populism that seems embedded in most of the national media is necessary and validating if the story of what happened in the 2004 election is to reach out and enable reform in the future.

I've read the accounts of the missing absentee ballots in Florida (which you also nicely document) and have likewise noted in several states the unlawful collection of absentee ballots by mysterious persons and groups. In Georgia, we've just had the Republican legislature attempt to restrict minority voting by creating a voter ID requirement where no documented fraud has occurred. Interestingly, however, the voter ID restrictions would not apply to absentee ballots. To me, that's a tip that one method of rigging is to either create phantom absentee voters or revote for "captured" absentee ballots. Something very fishy is going on with absentees. I noted this particularly in Nevada where they have verified voting. Absentee fraud could be a way to circumvent all other measures of safeguarding the vote. Did you get a sense of rank in the types and methods of vote fraud -- electronic, vote switching DRE's, absentee, various types of disenfranchisement, etc.?

And finally, at the old Kerry-Edwards forum on election day, one of the regulars posted an odd firsthand account that I have not seen since. While on the phone to Blackwell's Secretary of State headquarters, she was put on hold and could hear a phone bank of numerous people in the SoS's office making phone calls to voters stating that they were calling from Planned Parenthood and asking that they vote for John Kerry in order to keep abortion legal. My take was that they were calling identified Catholic voters in order to anger them to the polls to vote for Bush. That sort of illegal and underhanded tactic is Rovian by nature (or Mehlman-esque as the case may be) and I would guess prosecution worthy. The old Kerry-Edwards forum is long gone, and I have no way of researching it further. Have you heard of similar Ohio accounts, or is that state so awash in corruption that it almost gets lost in the mix?

A thousand thanks for your kind words. I think your work is indispensable, and was delighted to be able to include it in my book, which seems all the stronger for your research.

I had not heard anything about that phone bank. If you find it, could you send it to me? (You still have my email address, right?)

If I can root out the report of Blackwell's phone bank, I will definitely send it to you.

Thank you again for participating in the Q & A. It's a steep hill to climb to confront the complacency, forgetfulness, and arrogance on this issue that await every step. It is deeply appreciated by those involved in examination of 2004 and reform for the future. Your comments today were pointed, greatly informative, and illuminating. Thank you.

will actually entertain the idea of replacing the voting machines that they just purchased to be in compliance with HAVA? Can those machines be retrofitted with a "proof of vote" certificate and would that keep our elections from being stolen? How likely do you believe it is that states will actually go to a voter verified paper ballot (which is what I'd like to see)?

Thank you,
Carol

that were put into place ...Reid doesn't even understand what is happening ...

if the demand is long and loud enough. HAVA, furthermore, should be repealed ASAP.

you rely fairly heavily on anecdotal evidence, which -- while certain to stir the proper response -- doesn't carry much weight in scientific or (more importantly) legal analysis.

I ran into the same problem while looking into the 2000 election here in Florida -- plenty of people willing to talk, but little direct evidence of willful manipulation.

My question is, do you believe that, if given to a prosecutor with subpoena power, real evidence not relying on circumstance or anecdote could be found, such that either this administration and/or the leaders of the Republican Party could be held criminally liable? If so, what would it mean for both parties in the long term (the short term conclusions being fairly obvious)?

In other words, if taken into the ostensibly objective realm of the courtroom, could this dog hunt?

which, as you note, works better in a narrative composed for broad consumption than it would in court. If you'd like a good example of non-anecdotal evidence, please let me recommend the section of the book that deals with Sproul and Associates. There is solid evidence of fraud committed by the GOP—and also evidence of a bald effort by the party to conceal all trace of that wrongdoing.

He thinks he is King of America.

We have what looks to be a proportion of the US populace which has (what we call on DU) "drunk the kool-aid"; i.e., will support Bush and the Republicans regardless of what they do, even if they broke into their houses and kidnapped their children.
How do we go about unfooling these people? Can we unfool them?

Can we really get some verification, (i.e. a paper trail), for this electronic voting fiasco?

So far, it seems to me that the push for this is far too disorganized, and it is a relatively easy thing for the companies that make these machines to add a device that ensures counting is verifiable.

What the heck is the hold-up?

No question, just wanted to welcome you. Now I'll just sit back with some popcorn and enjoy the pithy remarks aimed at & Co. that are sure to follow...

I would like to know your impressions of how your piece has been received, both among other journalists and among the general public. Any feel for the impact on sales of Harper's at the newsstand, LTTEs or hits on Harper's and your web-sites. (I'm trying to gauge the legs of this story.)

What evidence from other states besides Ohio (or the behavior of the Rethugs in Congress and elsewhere) during and after the election confirms your suspicions that the election was stolen.

What are your reactions to the recent piece o' shit article in Mother Jones or the older piece o' shit article in TomPaine which dismissed the election fraud evidence.

Why do you believe there is still such resistance (even among progressives) to acknowledging that our elections are being stolen these days?

Any responses to any of these questions would be appreciated. Thanks again from Tennessee.
We're not a red state or a blue state -- we're an Orange State.

It seems that centrist/professional party Democrats resist this issue as if it were the plague. As a risen-from-poverty bootstraps-Democrat, this attitude is very troubling because it's the economically-challenged Dems who were immediately disenfranchised and it feels like we are being told by our own party that we don't matter.

Brook in (purple) Nashville

That issue of Harper's broke a lot of records for newsstand sales. It sold more than any prior issue since the one that published Norman Mailer's Prisoner of Sex in 1972, and may well have outsold that one too. (We don't know yet.) In any case, the response was exhilarating.

The evidence of nationwide vote theft is vast. It's in the book. (In large part, it IS the book.)

I was disappointed in Mark Hertsgaard's piece——especially as he's a friend of mine, and generally a very good reporter. He really blew it there. For one thing, my book is not based largely on the Conyers Report: a characterization that implies that my focus is Ohio. In fact, I devote only ten pages to the Conyers Report, and another five to scandals in Ohio NOT discussed by Conyers et al. The book is nearly 300 pages long, with copious evidence from many states. And more generally, Mark's piece badly distorted not just my book but the Conyers Report (WHAT WENT WRONG IN OHIO?) and the excellent compilation of documents put together by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (DID GEORGE W. BUSH STEAL THE ELECTION IN 2004?).
The evidence speaks for itself. I wish that Mark had worked a little harder on that piece.

The resistance is based partly on corruption, in some cases, and careerism, and very largely on denial. The implications of the theft last year are very grave. Better to deny them categorically.

The whole red state/blue state dichotomy is pure crapola.

Mr. Miller, I'm glad someone is finally saying that. This phrase needs to be shoved into every media outlet.

How can we fight voter suppression in US? The recent Housing Bill has provisions that would cut funds for non-profit organizations that build housing for low-income individuals if they engage in voter registration. In my opinion this is an attempt to suppress the vote of low-income and minorities in the United States. What can we do to fight back against this type of underhanded dealing?

or will pointing to the UK, as the source, be enough to get past our own intel's objections to the 'saddam sought uranium from africa' line/lie?

also, what do we (the public/media) know about the UK source?

and last but not least...

would you agree that it is fair to say, 'the neoCONs put every american, man, woman and child at risk' by exposing part of our clandestine WMD operations?

thanks for all your excellent work and participation



peace

I bet that's everyone's question now?

The media assumes there's two sides to every story, even when there isn't,e.g., I.D. vs. evolution, Bush's Social Security proposal is privatization vs. the truth. How much has this ennabled Bush?

credit.

And the media will present it as a real, genuine, hotly debated controversy.

Its ridiculous.

The republicans use thsi idiocy on the part of the media to great advantage.

I think the media does bend over backwards to avoid being perceived as "liberal." Ironically, they aren't, and to double the irony, despite bending over backwards, they are still perceived as being liberal anyway.

As you probably know there is a September 11th forum
on DU with a lot of info, queries, theories on what
really went down on 9/11.

Are you interested in that subject and will you
write about it?

...is the only way The American People can be redeemed in the eyes of the world after the serial atrocities committed in their name by this illegitimate, criminal regime?

--
www.january6th.org

Why do you think the national Democratic party has been so reticent to discuss and investigate election fraud? The 2000 election was stolen and they let it happen again. I do not know if you discussed this in your book since I haven't read it yet.

media's blockade on reporting the truth about the stolen elections? Our efforts here at the end of the 2004 election were monumental and yet the only one really reporting the possibility of the election being stolen was Keith Olbermann.

Protection volunteer last year, and directly witnessed many disingenuous and downright deliberate violations of HAVA and elections laws, which lead directly to the disenfranchisement of voters. I also was part of the recount team for Fairfield County, where I witnessed personally blatant violations of the Ohio recount laws under the direct guidance of the Secretary of State.

Do you think the Reform Ohio Initiatives are a good first step? Do you have any sense on the outcome and what it would mean if Issues 2,3,4,and 5 pass/fail? Will they have any teeth at all in establishing verified paper ballots or even fair voting in general?

FWIW, I will be voting on a Diebold touch machine next Tuesday for the first time in my life, and am NOT happy about that. I am frustrated that Governor Taft's personal aide, who was indicted and convicted of Ethics Violations, leads the campaign against the Reform Ohio Initiatives.

Do you also have a sense of what kind of change of heart it would take to overhaul our voting system, and which state you think may be targeted next?

Whew,

Thanks for ANY answers you may give to my post, and for all your hard work.

hand counted in front of scrutineers" system implemented here for national offices?

Followup:

As there may be Constitutional issues forcing an election method on the States, can we start the ball rolling by demanding such a system for the Democratic primaries?

I would ask Mr. Miller for his honest opinion of when, or if, the final proof of the thievery of these elections will become known. Books like Miller's can and will be ridiculed and rationalized by supporters of this evil administration from now until doomsday - literally, if left unfettered. This is particularly true so long as a large portion of the media is in on the deal. Namely, that their employers have determined that their 'self interest' is tied to a continuation of Republican rule, and rules.

My own opinion is that it will take an outpouring of admissions of guilt - primarily through well-marketing books and other money-making schemes - from the insiders and participants. This can only happen if the 'hush money' starts to run out or when the Patrick Fitzgerald's of the Justice System get the goods on a few of them. Just enough to build genuine fear - not the kind bushco routinely uses to keep us in line - but fear of going to jail, ruination of reputation and, of course, not enough money to keep them in the style they see the 'others' living.

It'll come before the end of this term - and prayerfully perhaps right after the rest of the Fitzgerald Indictments - but it will come as surely as George Bush's middle initial will forever forward stand for "Worst"

It seems to me that the Main Stream Media(MSM) is either willingly or unconsciously doing the bidding of the conservative agenda. It is no secret that the vast majority of media outlets in this country are now owned by conglomerates with conservative ties and agendas of their own. It seems to be the only rational explanation for every bizarre story about Clinton getting tons of air time, while anything negative about Bush or the conservatives is pushed aside for the latest on the girl from Aruba, or a shark attack, or some other bit of hyperbole.

For those of us paying attention, as many here on DU obviously do, the knowledge about the theft of the last two elections is in fact old news. The popular meme is "get over it". This leads me, finally, to my question...

In this climate of conservative dominated/owned media, how do we get the truth out there and once it is out there, how do we keep it front and center until the people finally take notice and demand something be done?

No one asked me (meatloaf) but my two cents would be that Elections are necessarily political (even when "nonpartisan"), and our winner take all system of elections (which might be better called "guaranteed disfranchisement of up to 49.9% of voters") means that there will always be a winner and always be a loser.

The winner doesn't question victory. The loser is subject to sour grapes attacks, but is the only party with a chance to raise the issue. "Outsiders" like foreigners who might possibly be more objective have "no business butting in" or if American citizens have no right to an opinion, having not voted. So, the mere act of voting makes us all arguably "partisans" not entitled to be listened to at all.

Solution is to work toward FUTURE elections, where we don't know who the incumbent is and who the challenger is, etc., and the rules are more likely to be fair.

Problem is, election laws are set only by the WINNERS of elections, they're called senators and representatives. They tend to think all is fine, or else are afraid of sour grapes attacks. Books like Mark Crispin Millers and Andrew Gumbel's new one and Tracy Campbell's new one called Deliver the Vote show quite clearly that Election fraud is an american tradition, including but not limited to George Washington himself.

You might say that with so much at stake in a guaranteed disfranchisement system, the incentives to cheat are extremely high since that one single vote that puts one over the top is worth everything....

But to give my answer to your question, the focus has to be on PUBLIC CONTROL of elections, the public's ability to oversee and observe all aspects (by all parties/persons) in order to insure it's integrity through policing. This public control is the sine qua non of real democracy, not elections (dictators have elections too, often). Put everything so far out on the open that it's very hard to game the system, and make it decentralized, with no focus points that can throw elections easily.

Unfortunately, using corporate trade secret hard drives to count votes in secret is about the worst POSSIBLE election system one can imagine under the above standards. Invisible to public, secret, one stop shopping for fraud. Even if it were clean, there's no reason to trust secret vote counts.

The GAO report on miselection 04 came out last week to virtual silence from the main stream media, but BushCo is (finally) getting a more critical look from them, thanks to Mr. Fitzgerald. Isn't this the perfect time to push this issue, with this corrupt regime already vulnerable? How can we get this issue more attention from the MSM?

Are you going to be on The Daily Show, or do you have any MSM interviews scheduled? What I would really enjoy is to see you on Washington Journal!

Loved the Dyslexicon, and Cruel and Unusual. I'm looking forward to reading your new one!

Anything you can do to help us save Marc Maron is REALLY appreciated!

I wish I had the time to answer all of them in detail!

The GAO report is an important document. The press's silence on it is appalling, and, I'm afraid, revealing.

The Daily Show said they would have me on if a relevant "big story" should break sometime soon. I'm not sure what that means. The GAO report is such a story, except that, as you noticed, it was not a story. So what would such a story be, I wonder? Anyway, I'd love to be invited on. (Feel free to pester them on my behalf!) I think the MSM will be a tough sell for this book, although not as tough as it was a few months ago. The Florida Sun-Sentinel gave me a pretty good review, and I got good reviews as well in Publishers Weekly and Kirkus Reviews. The peoples at Basic Books are working overtime to get the word out, so we'll see.

I gotta run right now, but will drop back in an hour or so.

Got contact info anybody?

All I could find was a feedback page on the Comedy Central website. Here's the link to that page: http://www.comedycentral.com/help/questionsCC.jhtml

I've already sent my message, now everyone here do the same! Also contact Keith Olbermann...he's another of the good guys.

C'mon Du'ers...let's get the message out - and get Mark Crispin Miller on!!

I included the link to the Rock River Times' article.

I really hope they do this... we need people to wake up already. TDS has huge numbers and this might finally be enough to get people to listen.

The fact that the MSM ignored the odd election was all the proof I personally needed to know the election was stolen. Your book is the first real detailed look at everything that went on. Thanks.

http://www.rockrivertimes.com/index.pl?cmd=viewstory&ca...

maybe it's because IT ISN'T!

This is the over arching "story" of the BuSh misAdministration.

EX: Libby can plead "not guilty" and Cheney can refuse to take the stand. What are we going to do, vote them out?

Let's start pestering, DU! But, in a nice way, lol!

Anyone have an email addy for TDS?

He is doing book-tour interviews today so he will pop in and out this afternoon to continue the discussion.

And thanks for setting this up. This is really great. Hopefully he can find some time to stop by again later today.

Or is it occuring in many of the States?

Of course it was extensive in Ohio, and the book includes a detailed section on the theft in Florida. But the evidence suggests that there was also significant chicanery in Pennsylvania, Oregon, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Michigan, New Jersey, New Hampshire, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota and Montana, as well as other states, and aside from BushCo's intereference with the US vote abroad.

Now I know I have to go out & get the book.

Professor Miller,


There are SO MANY wildly outrageous events occuring simultaneously-- the death of our democracy through stolen elections, the prospect of never-ending war, an unprotected and abused labor force (yes, I will be striking next week), the normalization of torture and rape, the loss of civil liberties, the suspicion surrounding the Bush Adminstration's culpability in 9-11-- why is the public so RESOUNDINGLY SILENT? I believe this resounding silence would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

I went to the World Can't Wait rally at Union Square yesterday and I was perplexed at that so few New Yorkers were willing to take to the streets to protest this regime. As undergrads in the late 80s/early 90s, we occupied the administration building because of a slight increase in tuition for low-income students. At this point, I swear I can't imagine undergraduates taking action to stop a college administration from forcing low income students to sell their organs to pay for tuition.

It seems to be more than just a chilling effect. We are living in a media bubble-- a bubble of disinformation. As a people under undemocratic rule, who currently have no ability to manage or confront our mediated environment... how can we cut through the apathy? how do we debrief our fellow Americans? how do we address the fact that even those who are critical of the Bush administration will not confront the gravity of the situation?

Do you have any ideas on how to burst the media bubble?

Can you share with us any particular strategies you have used to cut through normally thoughtful people's overwhelming desire to pull the covers over heads and go back to bed?

And thank you for signing the faculty democracy statement in support of TA's freedom to strike!

i was a student activist in the 80s in upper east tennessee which was an early entrant into the world of conservative activism. at national gatherings i'd tell my story and us the term "conservative activism" and fellow activists from other states thought that was the funniest thing they had ever heard of.

but let me tell what worked for us -- cultural affiliations. work with bands, artists, business-folk and everyone you can get your hands on to multiply your sphere of influence. make the progressive-liberal crowd THE IN-CROWD. the affiliations work best when they are woven into the fabric of life. most people don't need or want to write/read position papers -- they want to party.

this might sound flippant, but it's not -- it goes a long way to overturning old forms of AUTHORITY and creating new ones.

just my 2 cents -- this question was so close to my experience i had to chime in.

Still, people didn't come out in the numbers that they should have. The largest majority of people there were HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS and I was glad to see them.

But there is an incredible chill on college campuses these days. I worry because if young people don't see a nation in arms after a stolen election, in a decade I fear we will have a generation who doesn't see much value in participatory democracy.

Discontent is more widespread than we are generally led to think. BushCo's popularity among the military, for example, and among military families, is not at all impressive; and he has lost a lot of ground even among his own erstwhile constituents. His current "STRONG approval" rating is now around 22%, with a four-point margin of error, which means that it could be as low as 18%——the same percentage of Americans who did not disapprove of how Bush/Cheney and their Congress tried to meddle in the Terri Schiavo case.

We tend to think of many of our fellow-citizens as apathetic because, let's face it, we too live inside "the media bubble," which represents us to ourselves (and to the whole wide world) as far less discontented than we really are.

Now, it is surely true that people should be more than discontented. They should be actively protesting and resisting. (Although there too the media tunes out what protest and resistance HAS welled up.) On the other hand, the system has radically depoliticized us, training us to watch and, if we can afford it, shop, and little else. We've therefore long since lost our civic virtue, and the necessary habit of saying NO when things become oppressive.

Just remember that the situation is a lot more fluid, and potentially explosive, than it appears to be on CNN and in the New York Times. The elites have fallen out with one another——a clash that now provides us with a most important opportunity to say things that have been verboten for too long. The iron is hot. It's therefore crucial that we not despair, or paralyze ourselves with undue worries vis-a-vis the seeming or alleged indifference of "the masses."

Before the Iraq invasion there were massive worldwide protests that the news media basically ignored. (The NYTimes front page story after 500,000 protesters marched through Manhattan was on preschoolers on an egg hunt) T.V. news forget it.... Can you imagine if they were covering MLK in the sixties? We'd will have segregation and nobody would have heard of Goodman Schwerner and Chaney. That's a big deal in a country that gets it information from CNN and Fox. Also back then progressives could count on a hearing from the courts that avenue is narrowing by the second. WE need to hurt the corporations where they feel it.. in the pocket book. Step One: Turn off the TV sets! Step Two: Buy BLUE!
Step Three: Fund a network

As u say Mark:

"It's therefore crucial that we not despair, or paralyze ourselves with undue worries vis-a-vis the seeming or alleged indifference of "the masses."
---------------
--I'm convinced that many people really do know what's going on...but they don't have much faith in being able to do anything about it. There is a pervasive malaise in this country, a sense of powerlessness, a deep discontent waiting to be harnessed to a purpose. The people we need on our side are not the Neo-Con element.
Forget them. The majority of people in this country want regime change. That's who we need to reach out to. I intend to use your book as an aid to informing people about the dysfunctional election system. The (s)election of 2004 clearly proves that the system is a national disgrace.

and the last stolen election -- as you say, there is a huge disconnect here.

The NYT sent out a mass email to reassure us there was no story in the Ohio recount. At that point, many of us protested and cancelled our subscriptions.

That's a problematic solution, at best.

Could you comment on this? Who were some people or outlets who surprised you by denying or dismissing the idea of election theft?

Surely, with so many schemes in operation, the number of people directly involved in stealing votes would have to be in the tens or hundreds. Even if they were all True Believers, I'd expect that one or more would have come forward by now.

Why haven't they?

All were insiders who have gone public. As have many, many people who have filed affidavits in Ohio and elsewhere about election (and recount) corruption that they witnessed and have testified to. Maybe if any of these early "whistle-blowers" received any respect or coverage, more would come forward. Just a thought.

We've got three reports: 1 insider (anonymous), 1 observer, and 1 insider (identity known).

Clearly, these reports sank beneath the media sand without a trace. they were (apparently) lumped with Sasquatch sitings and Kennedy Assassination theories. And yet, they suggested conspiracies including not the hundreds I speculated on earlier, but thousands of active participants -- and not a centralized effort, but distributed: many jurisdictions, many methods.

This should have sprung a HUGE leak by now, with 10, 20, 50 whistleblowers. Why not?

(Disclaimer -- I happen to be convinced that the 2004 election was indeed stolen, but I can't imagine how. Maybe Miller's book is the place to look.)

who fully understood the rigging of the machines.

Remember the voting machines used in FL are the same ones used in TX, PA, etc., all over the country.

It's true that the critical states would have required more than the "default" tilt that is provided by the factory, so there might have been a pretty good number of brown shirts to carry out what was needed. But when you pay off an election official or you convince them that the machines are being unjustly criticized, and the officials have a great desire to see the DREs succeed, those people go "blind" pretty easily.

Also remember that somebody who "patches" a machine or plugs a floppy into a central tabulator, doesn't have to know exactly what the thing does. He's just working with or for the machine makers or maybe with some group that sympathizes with the machine makers or the Repubs. Rob Behler who patched the GA Diebold machines in 02, didn't know what his patch did exactly. He just applied it to the machines, supposedly to remedy one of the many problems that arose during the election.

there's not a lot of incentive to speak out. When even the Democratic party rolls over and plays dead in the face of massive disenfranchisement and fraud, what's in it for whistleblowers? They'd just be marginalized.

The fact is the political machine DEPENDS on being able to manipulate the vote. But many Americans are in denial about how widespread this is. I worked as a local election worker in the 90's. You wouldn't believe the stuff that happened but there were no lawsuits, no investigations. It did election workers no good to complain or try to address the issues. The mechanism to deal with all this corruption did not exist then and it's now made much worse by the advent of black box voting. Many methods of disenfranchisement and fraud exist --perpetrated by "active participants" all over the country. The basic philosophy is--it's only smart to act in your own best interest--the ends justify the means.

I wanted to ask you about an interview you did with the magazine "Stay Free!" for their special "conspiracy issue" back in 2002. In it, you raised issues with JFK's assassination, and I have to ask whether you actually believe that the facts of the Kennedy asassination are as they seem, or if you believe that there was a conspiracy involved.

Also, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Right Wing billionaire-funded think tank/foundation hegemony, and how it limits and distorts the media.

Thanks for your time, and I'm a big fan. Keep it up!

I read and enjoyed "The Bush Dyslexicon". It was very refreshing to see that I wasn't crazy.

My first indication that Bush was inadequate was when, during the 2000 Debates, Bush harnessed the vast ignorance of the millions of people who did not understand Gore's simple plan by calling it "Fuzzy Math".
I knew, at that moment, that this man would turn America's ignorance to his advantage... but I did not know just how bad it would be.

I have not read all of your work (yet), but I wonder if you believe that this administration is actively pursuing the 'dumbing down' of America as a part of their agenda, or if it is merely incidental to their policies?

Because that whole "Bush will keep you safer" is an invitation to extend mindless trust. Isn't that a tactic of predators in nature?

when he realized (perhaps) that if he didn't understand what Gore was laying out, then a significant number of Americans did not either. And with that, he gained instant rapport with many people.

That 'fuzzy math' volley was so very potent, but it's substance was based on ignorance.

It was then that I knew this person would use America's ignorance to accomplish his ends.

don't have much of an imagination.

In your opinion, Mark (and anyone else who cares to respond) are paper trails enough? Should we have TWO paper trails, one carried by the voter, the other collected by the Voting Commission, for possible re-count?

We need to be sure that votes cannot be "disappeared" and, to my way of thinking, the only way to insure that is to have TWO paper trails...that way, a voter who feels his vote was mishandled could lodge a protest, and the Voting Commission would have to prove the voter's vote was counted as cast, by producing the other paper record.

Anonymity in voting could still be preserved by having the receipts be NUMBERED.

What do you think?

Voter-verified paper ballots

Mandatory random manual audits of between 5-10% of the VVPB

No wireless communication capability in any electronic voting system

I would also recommend moving away from DREs entirely in favor of optical scan systems (with ballot marking devices like the Automark to assist disabled voters.)

But because optical scan machines can also be tampered with, the mandatory random manual audits and no wireless capability are critical components of a more secure voting process. However, optical scan ballots are paper ballots, so you start and end with a VVPB.

well put.

Move away from DREs entirely. They cost three times as much to operate as opti-scan and cannot be made free of glitches and vulnerability anytime soon. They need to be discontinued immediately.

deserves its own GD thread.

Andy used to be very patient with me and took time to explain when I didn't understand. But, I understood your post easily.

Where our Santa Cruz County registrar just approved the Sequoia system for use in the next election, saying she had to approve something, in order to comply with HAVA...

How can we resist having touch-screens rammed down our throats? If it can happen in ultra-liberal Santa Cruz, it can happen anywhere...

Is civil disobedience our only recourse?

Mark, first, THANKS for being here with us!

I realize the current adminstration has probably stolen the election and illegally sent us to war, BUT .....

My biggest problem is trying to understand why so many dolts,-- er, people, voted them in, in the first place. Their policies hurt the little guys who put them in office!

Do you have any thoughts on why this is, Mark? My theory is the influence of right wing talk shows .....

Thanks for your thoughts in this area.

Thanks for being here today. I have a couple of concerns that I would like to address:

1. I am seeing that some states are having success at mandating paper ballots and "outlawing" touchscreen voting with secret, proprietary vote-counting (and transmitting) software. Why is there not a unified, state-to-state effort to "standardize" this process, wherever possible, so that the process is streamlined?

2. Why don't we have a big organization (say, like the DNC) throwing muscle and money into the process of de-privatizing our vote-counting process? How can we attract support from large organizations for this effort?

let me ask you if you believe, as I am starting to, that we will need International Monitors, clear plastic boxes, and federal ballots to clean up the system? that is what it took in Mexico to clean it and have the PRI loose a national election. And Mexico is just one example....

Oh and I ask because I am aware of the consequences politically if this were to occur.

Oh and locally I will keep pushing.

Thanks in advance, and kudos on the Harper's article, lets just say I got a couple extra issues and ahem forgot them in convenient places.

The media has repeatedly partitioned any discussion of this topic into the "conspiracy theory" pigeonhole.

Will there ever be a way to discuss this without someone bringing up tinfoil hats, et al?

I just wanted to tell you that I use your work in the university writing and public speaking classes that I teach in northern NJ. I just finished showing my classes the Bill Moyers video in which you talk about doublethink and how knowing and being aware of it doesn't immunize us from its effects.




Cher

Land of Blackwell the Evil. I know he stole the 2004 election. How can we - as ordinary citizens - stop them from doing it again? Are you familiar with State Issues 2, 3, 4 and 5? We have been receiving conflicting views on whether or not to vote for them. Do you know of them, and if so, do you have an opinion?

What do Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman say? Free Press is
terrific. I trust them all implicitly re: all electoral issues in Ohio.

Is here. Essentially he says - Yes! Good. - and we need more...
<http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2005/1248 >

If you have time this weekend Reform Ohio Now is looking for people to make phone calls to residents to get out and vote for 2, 3, 4, 5 --
<http://www.reformohionow.org/content.jsp?content_KEY=10... >

Do you follow the details and qestions about the 'stickers' that some people saw on the ballots being resubmitted in the very stifled and hard fought recall or do you more lump them into a grocery list with more detail paid to specific causes of it, such as the GOP Monitors who were inside the voting areas and harassed some people to try to keep them from voting?

...Have we mad any positive progress in Georgia since 2004, have things gotten worst, and what can we here in Georgia do to regain our right to a free, fair and transparent Vote count?

Thanks

Is this realistic?

Also, would you comment on the fact that the polls are controlled/owned by the media and how this works to distort the results?

That this book is out there. Thank you! thank you! thank you! I'm going to buy it for my husband for Christmas.

The only question to me seems to be HOW does this story get into the media and get discussed seriously? Because first there must be light on the issue to have reform that is meaningful.

Okay-here's a wild idea-and a horrible one-as we watch the further crumbling and dismantling of the Bush adminstration, as more and more of those in his corner will want to distance themselves-the way out-forgiveness for the American people-you didn't vote for this guy anyway! It's not your fault. (It's not funny.)

So..if we can't get our side-the Democratic establishment to take this seriously how can we get others that may be the most staunch Republicans but still want far elections? Anyway-I am thrilled to see this here. Thanks, Skinner.

As an election reformist on local, state and national levels, I thank you for discussing and writing about THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE facing our country.

In March 2006, the full-length documentary, Votergate, will be released, exposing the dark underworld of the electronic voting industry. It is my understanding that it will have a broad theater distribution. Call me optimistic and crazy, but if this documentary has the exposure it deserves, combined with books and articles such as yours already out there, could this be the tipping point we've been waiting for? Could this stir a critical mass that could cause sweeping changes across the land? Please say yes.

More info on Votergate:

http://www.votergate.tv/history.html

state into a vote by mail state, like Oregon. We recently went Diebold DRE. What is your opinion on the Oregon vote by mail system?

Thanks!

First of all thank you for visiting and answering.

I'd like to know if you know of any way to get attention for this issue with politicians. It seems precious few of them are willing to do anything about it, and other than helping with Jackson's efforts to get a real voter rights law passed, is there anything else that might work?

With the GAO report out, one would think it should be easier, but...

And my question is this - do you think that, given all the clear information we had and are getting about both the 2000 election and the 2004 election that we'll ever see it on the front pages of the so-called "liberal media"?