A funny thing happened on my way to the FORUM -- when TROLLs attack

[nashville_brook]

There's a turf battle going on between internet FORUMS now that things are falling apart for the Bushies. Who knew INTERNET FORUMS were honest-to-goodness battlefields in the STRUGGLE for GOOD AND EVIL. Apparently St. Peter keeps track of our postings and if you who really really want to go to heaven, you better be able to show St. Peter you fought the good fight online. The stakes are apparently this HIGH! :)

Here's the story:

The other morning I found this Johnson City Forum comment responding to an old blog post in my email:

As if the hurricane was Bush's fault. You're obviously not educated. Bush is not responsible for the local response, he is responsible for the NATIONAL response. It is impossible to coordinate a National Search and Rescue to a 30 mile radius in less than several days. You should be harping on the mayor and governor who were obviously under-prepared. You should do some research and understand how local, state and federal govt works before you blame Bush. OH, and I guess Bush blew up the levy to. HAHA MORONS!

Basic month-old Rush Limbaugh boilerplate yipyap. They almost got thru the whole bit without a single misspelling... if it weren't for that dang "levee" at the end before "HAHA MORONS!"

Thinking it was at least an artifact worth sharing, I started a thread here at DU.

Moments later, JCF gets this comment:

Looks like a little somebody needed some help from the dingbats over at DU (insert hysterical laughter) to help them with their reply!!! Bwhahahahahah!!!
Here it is cut and pasted as the poor pathetic loony lib wrote it:

and then this:

I loved how Brook ran to DU to try and formulate a response to your initial comment. Just goes to show that any moron can create a blog. How about thinking for yourself sometime instead of being a sheep for the clinically misinformed.

and:

How pathetic. This idiot couldnt come up with his own response, so he goes back to DU to have the rest of his heard speak for him... You are so fucking stupid.

then there's:

Hahahaha.... any credibility Brook had she lost when she asked the lunatics at DemocraticUnderground for help responding to a "freeper". It's all about taking digs at President Bush and people of faith with the hateful people on that site. There's more to life than politics. Brook has my pity, and I will pray for her.

So, asking questions is an act of weakness. Decisive action would have looked like slinging poo. And I'm so stupid I have to have "my heard speak for me."

Bush is your man. No doubt about that.

To summarize, internet stalkers came to JCF to claiming moral authority to tell people at JCF that we need to "go to church":

As far as saying that Elizabeth might have a point if Bush said she needed to attend church - well, that's not an order, nor a law, and truth to tell, I'm inclined to say she does need to attend church. Is that forcing her to attend church? Is that forcing religion on her? Can't she hear a little advice without making a "federal case" out of it?

I think they'd do well to put down the Bible and pick up Freud's "Aetiology of Hysteria." I bet you'd like to "force" our little Lisa into your "church," you wicked minx.

:evilgrin:

Seriously, what do you think they are getting from the social exchange? What's the language game? Why spend the time? Are they blowing off steam? Is it a kind of political voyeurism? What are they wearing?

You have to admit, it's kinda, well -- transgressive.



Here's my bottom line, if you want to rule the world you at least need to learn some manners. You do "your team" no favors by picking fights. You do humanity no favors by assuming we are opposite camps, fighting imaginary battles. We're all going down with the ship so we might as well settle in. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.

[bryant69]

1. Well it's the sharing of ideas

That's what the internet is all about. The relative value of those ideas varies wildly, though.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
Big Contest at blog - To potentially win a subscription to Salon Magazine, visit this post --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2005/10/contest.html

[nashville_brook]

2. for some

some haven't learned the "sharing" part.

[benburch]

3. Common tactic...

The trolls who read our every word here will fly to whatever other forum you mention to "out" you as a DUer.

Lame, but about as clever as they are capable of.

[nashville_brook]

4. hey benburch!

i don't how folks do it when they have mega-sites like yours. childrens have so much time on their hands. :)

it's sad, tho. these times call for creativity and reaching out. they're only hurting themselves with obsessing on what other folks are doing.

that's why i say there's more to it than impish tricksterism. i think they take their activity very seriously -- as if it were GOOD and EVIL itself.

this personification is dangerous. this is how the unhinged associates a PERSON with EVIL and engages in transgressive behavior. projection. ill-formed boundaries. qualities normally associated with adolescence. as these folks take their battle into adulthood...well, that's how John Lennon wound up dead.

[Swamp Rat]

17. LOL!

"Guilty as charged!" :rofl:

[nashville_brook]

19. you bad!

:evilgrin:

[nashville_brook]

5. what is a stalker?

the term "stalking" is more commonly used to describe specific kinds of behavior directed at a particular person, such as harassing or threatening another person. But the variety of specific strategies employed and behaviors displayed by stalkers are limited only by the creativity and ingenuity of the stalkers themselves. Suffice it to say, virtually any unwanted contact between a stalker and their victim which directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can generally be referred to as stalking.

[nashville_brook]

6. take the STALKER QUIZ!

http://www.le.ac.uk/pc/aa/stalking/index.html

[kestrel91316]

40. No, no, you must mean "stocker"........

lol

[nashville_brook]

7. stalking often begins in rejection

Stalking often starts as a result of rejection; rejection rage and abandonment rage motivate the stalker to seek revenge through a predictable pattern of stalking behavior.

The stalker, usually a loner and socially inept, becomes obsessed with their target and bombards them with messages, emails, gifts, or abuse.

The abuse, initially consisting of psychological violence, often escalates and culminates in physical violence.

[dbeach]

8. trolls are everywhere

maybe the govt wil make a vaccione and immunize blogalnd

he heh

trolls often insult ,demean,disrupt and then call ya names and claim superior facts and intelligence..Wonder how manyare paid by the busheviks

stooges for fascists may not make the lower tiers in helll but Dante says the Traitors get the hottest seats

[nashville_brook]

9. since i'm new at this troll-biz... you got a definition of "troll?"

seems a terrible waste of time for people of such high intelligence.

[nashville_brook]

10. "claim superior facts and intelligence" -- an IQ irony

people who are clearly above average intelligence (affective, included) generally don't care to self-identify as smarty-pants. it's impolitic.

you don't have to be a pollster to recognize it's a worse fate to be too smart in our culture than to be too dumb. DUMBNESS is rewarded greatly -- with high office.

the 2000 campaign was a narrative of The Honors Student vs. The Mouthbreather. these folk side with willful ignorance, then claim MENSA status when it suits them.

predictable, yet entertaining. :)

[dbeach]

27. the deliberate dumbing down is a work in progress

trolls are a defintion that has multiple meanings...

I am more interested in the more sinister meanings...

like delibarate disrupters who are actuallly paid syndicate informants.. and are breaking laws by snoopin on Law abiding Citizens..

But I am defining syndicate as the govt corruption existing today in DC most exemplified bt the busheviks and carried to an all time high or is that low.??

[nashville_brook]

30. i think you've got a good point there

even if ALL the trolls in question aren't gainfully employed in their craft, they are the kind of stoolies who would do it for free -- for APPROVAL.

do i think there's folks out there in blogoland who earn their beans thru trolling? sure, why not. in the music business it's called Street Teams. some get paid -- usually the fan club prez -- most don't. they just don't have anything else in their lives to look forward to.

the Bushies provide a wonderful example of this -- see esp. Guckert.

[VolcanoJen]

11. O/T - Hey, nash...

... how do you get those cool grey quote boxes? "Blockquote" doesn't seem to get it for me.

What's yer secret? :-)

[nashville_brook]

12. hey jen! use the html lookup table...it's just a little different than

ye olde blockquote tag

"Create a styled, indented blockquote (useful for posting excerpts from articles)"
it's div... /div thing.


hate switching between blogger tags and DU. :hi:

[nashville_brook]

13. oh, jen -- remember what i said about honesty, realness being SEXY

i'm getting my AL GORE freak on

http://johnsoncity.blogspot.com/2005/09/getting-my-al-gore-freak-on.html

[VolcanoJen]

15. Very cool.... thanks, nash!! N/T

:bounce:

[nashville_brook]

14. Monkey Trap

An interesting system has been used for capturing monkeys in the jungles of Africa. The goal is to take the monkeys alive and unharmed for shipment to zoos of America. In an extremely humane way, the captors use heavy bottles, with long narrow necks, into which they deposit a handful of sweet-smelling treats. The bottles are dropped on the jungle floor, and the captors return the next morning to find a monkey trapped next to each bottle.

How is it accomplished? The monkey, attracted by the aromatic scent of the treats, comes to investigate the bottle, the treats, and is trapped. The monkey can't take its hand out of the bottle as long it's holding the treats, but it is unwilling to open its hand and let them go. The bottle is too heavy to carry away, so the monkey is trapped.

We may smile at the foolish monkeys, but how often we hold to our problems so tenaciously as the monkeys hold to the treats in the bottle.

[applegrove]

16. You can discuss stuff with people who like to discuss. Then you can

go & deal with freepers who do not want to discuss and are there only to obfuscate - by insulting, baiting, lying, and any manner of thing to keep the discussion from progressing.

Tell them that. Then ask them how many of their tactics are found in the: The Woolly-Thinker's Guide to Rhetoric and pass this along to them.

"Here you'll find top tips for besting your enemies. As employed by the world's best woolly-thinkers. Learn, for example: how to play the 'biological reductionist' card to maximum effect; how 'language games' can help you out of a sticky situation; and how lucky it is that 'truth' is relative to particular discourses (especially yours)".

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/rhetoric.php

Say that since you are not into rhetoric you find a dose of discussion with DUers really helpful. Because there - freepers are banned and actual discussions take place every day. Sometimes we all need real debate to keep us fresh and in fighting form. Too bad it is never found amongst freeper - the vigor dies - as they intend and the country is mindlessly handed over to a cabal of naive Utopians who see the lives of the middle class and the poor as completely expendable (health care crisis) and who sell off American assets to "fluff up" the market for the rich .. so the "GOP Class" can never miss one day of market roar ever!.

[nashville_brook]

18. totally agree with the Woolly thinking -- altho i detect synthetic fibers

:)

funny, i was just reading Listen, Little Man -- don't know why i'd pick up THAT book -- and found this passage"

"You frittered away the great French liberation, and you transformed the still greater Russian liberation into the world's greatest nightmare. Your failure -- your terrible failure, which only great, lonely hearts can understand with anger or contempt -- has driven to despair all those who were prepared to make every sacrifice for you...Still, I didn't lose heart, because in the meantime I had gained better and deeper understanding of your sickness. I knew that you couldn't have thought or acted any differently. I recognized your panic fear of everything that's alive in you. It's that fear which always leads you astray, even when you've made a good start. You simply fail to realize that HOPE must spring from your own understanding. You pump hope only into yourself, never out of yourself. That, LITTLE MAN, is why, considering the utter rottonness of your own world, you call me a 'moonbat.'"

okay -- Reich didn't say "moonbat." he said "optimist." same diff.

[applegrove]

20. The point is it is not so hard for freepers to stop the real discussion

with all manner of tools. So - use the DU for a sounding board - it is one of the only places where purposeful obfuscation is not allowed. The discussions must flow with give & take.

[nashville_brook]

21. there's a major psychological - Freudian ding in their development

that Reich speaks to. i'd hate to a be a fly on the wall in a freeper bedroom. yikes. imagine the sickness lurking between the sheets.

[applegrove]

22. Yuk! Why would you want to be there? They are just being used to

teach hate and more ignorance to Americans. Neocons hate the enlightenment. They hate it that people can "outthink" commercials and the like.

[nashville_brook]

23. it's the old projection thing -- he who attack "X" in others, likely

can't tolerate it in themselves. in most cases X=sex. think about it. we are "dirty hippies." have no "morals." aren't fit to be families, etc. i think the hot hot hate come from their cold cold hearts.

the "conservative programme" is all about repression. repressing women. repressing nature. repressing anything resembling humanity. they hold up acts of kindness and solidarity as they are evidence of weakness. they hide. they bait, and if someone says anything nice to them here they run back to their hideout and brag about the foolish moonbat who "gave me a smiley." it's a twisted world they live in and the ONLY way people get so messed up is thru their knickers.

[applegrove]

24. It comes from narcissism. Baser instinctives feel put upon when asked

to pay taxes or be part of a community. The rest of us - we take pleasure in community and try our hardest not to "put upon it". Misogynists are certainly attracted to scared, terrified, "struggling" people - (I read and I know unfortunately from some stranger who stalked me for years) But you cannot tell that by being a fly on the wall in their bedroom. It is a whole host of things that come together to make an uberasshole. And they project all day long - they see themselves as perfect and project in all manner of their lives (black crime is the problem - not corporate crime & war - why corporate aggression of any type is good). But it takes a village. And we have a whole village of idiots lining up to be Utopian neocons. So they are teaching others how to be assholes and narcissistic like them. And they teach "baser instincts" and turn their public into little hate-filled policing units (ask Nicholas Berg's father about how the freepers got his son on some list so that he was arrested in Iraq - and released just as abu ghirab came to light - so was murdered).

Has not worked for them in this case it seems. Katrina taught them there was a clear limit to the number of people they could teach "hate & tribalism" to. Americans - the majority - are much better people than them. They are not representative of humanity. They got power by lying and spinning and being so aggressive that normal humans could not fathom it or understand it for a time. Now we get it. Bet you Gore would have fought harder for his win in 2000 - but as a human with feeling - he would only naturally go so far in debasing the electoral system with court challenges.

So people - the good people - will project their goodness onto such creeps. And the creeps use all the tools in the book to bully and dominate and turn people silent, scared, or into adolescent followers. Until people realize that what is at stake is the adulthood of the nation and the balanced decisions that come when you take responsibility for things, and empathize, so that fighting - it becomes clear - is the only way to stop these creeps.

So you call the freepers on their little patsy ways and their obfuscation and their games and you ask them "how have your leaders made the country a better place? How have they made you a better person? In what way has the country improved? How do you feel about your children paying for all of this and the rich not sacrificing one dam thing in a time of war?" and you remind them to be adults.

Just be real. Narcissist and sociopaths and players and neocons hate that more than anything. Cause real means they are not the ones in total control of others. Reality means they cannot make some scapegoat (blacks in NO, or gays, or muslims, or whoever) take the blame for all "bad feeling" while they coast & bask in the beauty of their own dam power & control. Real means they take ownership of the actions they take and not pretend they have never done anything wrong - by simply constantly denying any fault/ mistake/ crime/ heinousness/ like they are swatting at so many flies and nobody has been hurt by their aggression and grandiose plans for absolute power-adoration from their followers or denial of the rights & human dignity of people who "get in their way" and are attacked personally & dehumanized to a point where they withdraw from their many roles & responsibilities as human or leaders or activists or journalists.

[nashville_brook]

25. right on -- i use "in the bedroom" as shorthand for history of sexual

identity. look beneath the froth and there's little boys who were told, "what's wrong with you, GIRLYMAN." ... "what're you, queer?" ... and whatever other esteem-killing crap they inherited from their families. women get: "who would want to marry a slut," ... "you're not going out like that," ... and whatever other manner of domination played on girls.

it's a crisis of AUTHORITY that causes the PROJECTION. no one can measure except those prescribed by former authorities. church, party, etc.

it's a retreat from LIFE as connection. connection is too scary for them. honoring people in their skin...in their bodies...and in themselves is not tolerated. they point: look at them. they are dumb. they are x. they are y. they are z. they are all the things the poor child was beat up with. if they showed their parents POWER they were quickly put back in their place: you WILL go to church...you WILL go to daddy's alma mater...you WILL NOT be your own person.

they are owned. they've known no life except the life of the slave. they've been played all their lives in a cycle of weakness/power -- guilt/domination. they've INTERNALIZED the control mechanism and now THEY ARE THE AUTHORITY. oh boy, what fun. gotta whole bunch of authority and a dial-up...lets roll.... :)

[applegrove]

26. I don't agree that the narcissists are criticized as kids. No - what you

describe would be people who are decent but grow up late because they were encouraged to be doormats.

No - we are talking about missing lobes and the like. People who are so narcissistic that they truly believe their own myths - but the people you describe - being put upon by expectation and the like - would have had to find their own identity at some point. Just as any child does. That is normal to be a little disfunctional - especially for the generation that grew up before the 1970s. When psychology & self-actualization became the role of parents.

No - do you honestly think the Rove was criticized and that makes him the asshole he is? Do you think he is looking for identity and has just not grown up?

The problem is raw aggression and testosterone. And parts of your heart that are dead from one reason or another. That is what is dangerous. Look at Condi (great article on her a few days ago). She lived in a bubble and was protected (I never heard she was overly criticised) and the world.

No - you describe the normal process of individuation. It is normal to pattern on your family until you see that - that doesn't work and it is time to pattern on your own dam self. Comes later to passives. Came late to the generation of women who divorced in the 1970s because they needed "to find themselves".

Condi, Bush, are bubble people with some part of their hearts missing so thus the desire to live in a world where their intellect rule their hearts (poor George Bush - he has no intellect so he just is ruled by his power to bully & create rules) - and all handed power for reasons perhaps not to do with either "being a real leader - though perhaps Condi was at one point though I don't hear that from Stanford". Cheney, Rove - they don't have hearts. And they are egotistical enough to want to see their belief systems and the power they covet - reflected back at them all day long in electoral wins and dominance and wealth. Neocons like Wolfowitz somehow believe that all human frailty can be solved by might and they themselves want to define "what is considered to be human frailty or which human frailties should get all the attention" because they consider everyone else too stupid to deserve to make the choices. And too frail. And they don't want to die (or loose control of the world which is like dying to them) at the hands of people they consider their intellectual inferiors. And so they encourage the American public to be dumb - and then they see it is so -so they were right. Dangerous Utopians.

You describe the struggles of individuation - which is completely normal. The problem isn't normalcy - the problem are the ones who think they are special and want to impose that onto everyone in the world and impose and fill their empty hearts with power and seeing themselves reflected. And who attack and destroy anyone minding their business who didn't notice how important they feel they are or has a different set of values - perhaps more adult (with that balance of heart & intellect). And the varous groups of nuts I describe - are enabled by vast amounts of wealth that will back them whatever they do - because they have fallen for the narcissistic belief system - so corporate hegemony fits right in.

[nashville_brook]

28. the thing you call "doormatting" is a freudian structure in my crit

from which neuroses such as narscissism, obsession, and anxiety sprout. different flavors, same great dysfunctional dessert. no time for a seminar in it though...it's really 6 and one half dozen the other way. the narscissism is on the part of the parent or authority figure such as clergy, in this case; the "alcoholic" family serves a good example. children grow up having no feelings of their own. they live to serve the interest of authority.

not normal individuation unless you are talking about 1905 instead of 2005. very pre-modern individuation such as found in "traditional" dominator-mode families.

lots of roads to Smallsville. this is the model i'm working with.

[applegrove]

29. People who are so kind-hearted they get tripped into being doormats

until they grow up and develop proper boundaries with their hearts (and stop giving it away) are narcissists? I mean all the people who walk into therapy are taught to be better with their boundaries and for doormats that means to be more aggressive and have bigger boundaries and to stand up for themselves.

You are very strange. You seem to equate the whole Rove WH problem with people who have authority issues and really - the issue is a lack of feeling, compassion in the Rovelike people's case - thus the pathetic and ongoing search to fill their egos (one needs true feelings to have true self-esteem no?). The huge brittle egos who are the true narcissists are empty and desperate every day to fill that pit with "win" "take" "diminish", etc. Like three year olds with egos and that is it.

I think if you look back on all that has been written about the neocons, Rovesputins, & the other parts of the cabal - they all point out a lack of empathy as the main character flaw. And the desire to destroy anything that gets in their way or could be a potential threat to their empires (egos). And to destroy people doing their jobs (like Bunny) and minding their own business have been the victims of such powerlust & hubris (Nicholas Berg).

Coming from a family where expectations were high and unrealistic - in that way - like any kids - you just become assertive and state your ground as a human being and hope that the family will learn the growth they need to learn and accept you for who you are - not so much for what they think "the rules of you should be as defined by them". And if you are lucky - you can build the life you need at the same time as your family adjusts while you are a teen and before you get exploited by the "wrong friend" who needs and likes a doormat or targeted by nefarious types (who like doormat women because - again with no adequate feelings - they are incapable of adequate self-esteem and will always need a partner who they can knock down - instead of lift up and enable and challenge so they all grow).


You seem to be implying that it is high expectations and pressure that create George Bush's and Karl Rove's. It is emotional scars from early childhood (death of sister) or biological scars/inheritance from birth (sociopaths) that result the narcissists we see today.

The problem isn't that people get stopped in their growth at some point - that happens all the time. And the world is made up of mostly good eggs. A person's growth will stop at times and then start again. It happens to most everyone. The problem is the nefarious sociopaths and power-mongers who are incapable of growth or recognizing or respecting it in others. And who exert a huge amount of effort to teach on the boards, in churches, in the GOP to stop thinking like adults and start knee-jerking like adolescents - so they will - like the "doormat wife" - be easier to control (don't mistake doormat wife with martyr wife who controls others with her own vision of self-pity) xtianity works too for the neocons as a tool of control. As does persecution complexes the christians seem to feel these days - when they have been doing the attacking & targeting of innocents for years. Bush too has a persecution complex - after bullying and intimidating and giving his handlers free reign on policy, election strategy, war, and nefarious tactics to destroy the lives of opposition - he now complains he is being attacked.

But despite the fact I do not agree with much of what you say - the overall generalization that it is x missing in the creep that the creep then projects X onto his victims ... Rove has no control over himself - there are no boundaries to what he will do - nothing inside of him will hold him back. He'll cause mayhem and keep on going. Whereas a true human - is scarred by the pain caused by anything they were involved with and avoids that very much ..the same painful situation.. because they empathize. Because the worst thing in life would be to cause others pain - so caution is the result. And freezing & silence (as in journalists & critics). Someone like Rove just gets more and more embolden. But Bush - in his sadistic way - (and remember his mother was considered the meanest & coldest person - so not only was Bush traumatized by a sister's death - but he likely learnt & inherited his mother's sadism (or lack of empathy)) Bush keeps imposing "uncomfortable rule-making" on anyone he can. He does it again and again and again. He has been describes as very happy with the uncomfortable change in actions his choices force on others. A normal person would cringe and become more and more traumatized for each and every imposition on others than diminishes the lives of others. Rovebots seem to feed off of it. And then cry like babies the moment someone holds up a mirror.

It isn't authority that is the problem. Adults don't answer to any authority. Go to any freeper board and the first thing they will say to you is "stop it with your thinking - you're not taking "authority". When they role play the freepers are always "Dr. S0 & So or Tim Madder recently returned from fighting in Iraq as a volunteer. Authority is all that the freepers and the Rovebots march out - so that they can control the thinking of the followers or the democrats who venture there to argue - and to control any adult's thinking you have to turn them into adolescents. A real adult sees no higher authority for their own actions than themselves. And to get more baser instinctives ... who will then not care if their neighbours or countrymen drown in a flood while stuck in a wheelchair... they need adolescents.

Adults answer to their own adults smarts & hearts. The problem is adolescent men who think that all those around them should fall under "their authority" - the same as the controllers & the bullies in public school. Katrina showed that the majority of americans - the ones who still think for themselves want and will demand more from their government than what Bush & Cheney did - twiddling their thumbs.

[nashville_brook]

32. i'm working in a different area -- i'm sure your way works too.

[applegrove]

38. Yes you are working on a "different areas". You are working on the

"moral suasion" that comes with wealth and society and other myths. The people who will play to fit in.

And why are not the Liberals on the DU admitting their obvious problem with authority. How-come they didn't "buy" into the whole neocon thing. Why didn't they lie down to people either intellectually, or financially superior, like good AMERICANs should?

Man - I think they had "thoughts". I think they had "hearts" (hearts are one dangerous things, why two women with hearts funded the whole birth control thing and kept women alive beyond 35 in droves... ).

Your "taking another curb". You are "just being you". You are "telling like it is" (if we were all to use 1985 psychology manuals.. and not what we know in the decades since). Achew!!! Cuft!! Pweew... I'm chocking on the books you are reading on the psychology of "liberals". Dusty, dusty, dusty.

[MADem]

39. Heh, I always thought it was jealousy, myself!

Them that can't get none, bitching about those who can!

[applegrove]

41. No - it is not about what you can get, it is about how deep the whole

is you have to fill. For narcissists, the hole is endless. For pacifists, sensitives, the hole is filled already. Both of these are rare extremes. Most people are somewhere in the middle, willing to compromise, but in the case of GOP, taught that their Holes are actually great things that should be acted apon to belittle and diminished others, filling your own dam holes up with the blood of others, through Xtrianity, politics, money or hate.

They make up such a small portion of humanity, why, really, are they in power.

[applegrove]

31. Okay - I lost my friend at the end of my argument. He described Liberals

as "authority challenged". And yes, in psychology, authority of politics is considered as adolescence..... but should that not change when the psychology of leaders turns adolescent?

I think so.

Our friend who describes "traumas of injustice" is really describing the birth of a LIBERAL. I mean - that is in the books already. A liberal is someone who saw injustice in childhood/adolescence..... and wanted to do something about it.

Scary for a neocon to deal with.

Cause seeing "injustice in childhood" is pretty much seeing reality.

I wonder why my friend has stopped debating. Just when we got juicy. Just when he wanted to turn all LIBERALS into people who do not succumb to AUTHORITY in their adulthood.

Hmmmm?

Okay - I lied. Was not a big question. PRETTY MUCH what the freepers want out of any debate: "why do you not wilt at my authority - I've handed you and expert in war/science/medicine/my reality and you do not follow. Your "problem with authority" is a "problem". You think like an adult. SHAME ON YOU!!!

WHERE IS MY FRIEND WHO WAS DEBATING ME? I MISS HIM/HER AND ALL THEIR AUTHORITY... PLEASE COME BACK...I HAVE NOT FINISHED TALKING TO YOU!!!

[nashville_brook]

33. i think you've spent too much time at this -- conflation, etc.

give it a rest.

[nashville_brook]

34. actually -- i wasn't EVER debating you. i'm not offering AUTHORITY...

i have a model i'm working with. you obviously have one you are fond of. i'm really not sure what set you off, but sorry if it was something i said.

good luck with it.

[nashville_brook]

35. oh wait, i get it -- i touched a nerve!

good one.

[applegrove]

36. You walk into Liberal land and give them the "psychology" out of

the books".

That is all I am saying. You describe "people who have issues of 'AUTHORITY'. We are adults here. Katrina punched that truth through.

Man - I took you so seriously for such a long time.
You were going on such huge generalizations. No? Is that what your next "post" will be.

Please, by all means, use 30 year old psycology.

[applegrove]

37. Let's go - just you and I. We will talk about adulthood, authority, lack

of respect for people on freeper boards who roll play authoritative positions.

Please. Let's do it... let's go!!!

Now that I have figured how much dust you have to blow off the books you read.... I can well understand your current windedness.

I myself had to spend week blowing the dust off of DISRAELI & his ilk. Man those books had not been opened for 80 years!!!