Why the "They didn't know Plame was undercover" spin...

[Junkdrawer]

I think Cheney, Libby, Rove et al knew exactly who Plame was and what she was doing. Among other things, she and her company, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, were investigating ARAMCO and ARAMCO goes right to the core of this administration's power base: The Saudis and Big Oil.

No, Plame, Wilson and a good number of honest CIA types were trying to expose the phony "Iraq has WMDs and so must be invaded" story, BushCo decided they must be stopped and Plame and her company were outed.

So why the "they didn't know" spin? Because they are:

1.) Trying to intimidate Fitz into not filing the big charges because he knows he will have to oppose "conventional wisdom".

2.) If he does file, there will the largest legal fight this country has ever seen. Lawyers always try to get the public to support their version of events before, and if they can get away with it, during the trial.

Make no mistake, the "they didn't know" spin is coming straight from the Cheney/Libby/Rove defense team.

[Birthmark]

1. They did know.

Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury *know* that they knew, too. Tough break for the Administration. One note too many! :)

[BrklynLiberal]

2. If excuse A didn't fly, try excuse B, and so on, and so on, etc.

[KerryOn]

9. Just like the reasons for going to war....

...those excuses kept changing as well.

A) Saddam has WMD's
B) Saddam is trying to obtain WMD's
C) Saddam had a plan for WMD's
D) Saddam wishes he had WMD's
E) Saddam gassed his own people (with our WMD's)

[MADem]

3. If they DID NOT KNOW, then they are INCOMPETENT

They have bad staffers, a failed chain of command, an inability for information to flow up and down the chain, and they have shitty researchers on their staffs.

No matter how they play it, it adds up to INATTENTION TO DETAIL, FAILURE TO DELEGATE AUTHORITY APPROPRIATELY, and LACK OF SUPERVISION at every level.

No matter how they spin it, the bottom line is INCOMPETENCE.

There are some things that need checking and double-checking, and anything that involves decisions of the highest order requires careful and complete vetting.

[nookiemonster]

4. Brewster is the big fish and the RW won't mention it.

Outing Valerie Plame was the catalyst event, but IMO it's only a small part of this sordid affair.

[unschooler]

6. By the "big fish," you mean Brewster was the real target of the outing?

[nookiemonster]

7. Yes, that's exactly what I think.

It's only an opinion, but seems viable.

I think that there could've been some revenge against Wilson too.

Hell, I don't know! I'm officially insane from this crap!

I will tell you one thing. Fitz knows.



edited for spelling

[unschooler]

10. Seems very viable to me. I've always thought that "outing"

Valerie seemed like an odd way to attack Joe. Seen in this light, Joe just provided an opportunity for them to out Brewster-Jennings, which might well have been in a position to expose their lies.

[BrklynLiberal]

12. There are many who share this point of view. Brewster -Jennings

was in a position to undermine the trafficking in WMDs and nuclear weapons that would have made lots of money for the BFEE.......

[FreakinDJ]

16. I think even Fitzpatric and grand jury see it now

Why else would Fitz have his investigative team in Italy. So they can gather the information that is buried here at home

[nookiemonster]

19. Alright, perhaps I'm having a moment of clarity.

You bring up a good point. Brewster was the target. Try this on for size.

1. Forged documents are planted by BFEE, knowing that Joe Wilson will confirm that they are forged.
2. Wilson makes statement against BFEE, Plame and Brewster are outed
3. BFEE tries to discredit Wilson and repeats how "dishonest" he was, therefore providing cover by slandering him.

It's really all conjecture on most of our part. I'm sure there are tons of crap that we don't know about.

[Jawja]

29. I agree.

I believe WHIG sought to destroy the operation in place to track WMDs. That's the only explanation I can think of for them having done something so blatantly stupid. It wasn't retaliation against Joe Wilson, like they claim. It was a calculated move to destroy Brewster Jennings.

[Scout1071]

5. I've been trying to make this point in a few threads tonight.

What we know is that Joe and Valerie Wilson had twin 4 year olds at the time of the outing. I've read on several sites throughout this investigation that an agent supposedly loses their NOC status after 5 years of being out of the field. Let's see, 4 year and who knows how many months old twins + 9 months = roughly 5 years. Maybe they initially believed her status was no longer NOC because she had taken a few years off from the field to raise her young twins. Then, the leak hit the news and it was revealed that was indeed still NOC status.

They shat themselves and began the cover-up.

[Junkdrawer]

15. Outing Plame outs Brewster-Jennings & Associates, regardless...

of whether Plame had NOC status. DailyKos has a good blog that speculates one or more undercover agents died because of the outing:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/22/143214/56

[Scout1071]

20. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree.

I'm trying to make sense of it all. I'm just saying I find it a huge coincidence that she had 4 year old twins and the NOC rule is supposedly 5 years.

What they did was totally wrong, purely to seek revenge, cover thier asses and to sell their war.

They need to be indicted, tried and imprisoned. Then we need to be impeached.

I find it very hard to believe this all happens around * for 2 years and he knows nothing. I can only hope that * is held accountable as well. Impeachment '06 sounds about right.

[Junkdrawer]

24. Yep. If they were calculating the age of the twins, they KNEW she was NOC

And if they knew, they're screwed.

:hi:

[Scout1071]

25. Not exactly. If they were 4 1/2 yrs old + 9 mos pregnancy - that is

longer than 5 years. However, she was still NOC.

[Junkdrawer]

26. But that's my point. Suppose Plame were no longer a NOC, BUT...

by outing her they outed her co-workers who were still NOC. So it wouldn't be Plame's name on the indictment, it would be the late Mr. (or Ms) X who was outed (and killed??) because of the action.

Screwed.

[nookiemonster]

22. Damn. That's pretty critical thought.

Definitely within the realm of possibility.

:thumbsup:

n/t

[Botany]

8. The papers on Air Force 1 .....

...... about Plame were marked S. As in secret.
next talking point.

[niallmac]

11. Real evil poisonous snakes. They hold nothing sacred.

[FreakinDJ]

13. Fitz is going for the throat

He is investigating the phony letter in Italy now as we speak. This has the potential to exspose the cabal's core

He has Cheeny by the balls on this 1 and everyone inside the beltway knows it. He can have King Chimpy's head on a plater and Cheeny knows it.

He is going to devide and conquer this band of theives

Can you imagine the back door deals being peddaled around the administration right now.

"Ok you take the fall for this 1 and I have company Xyz pick you up as a consultant for 2 million a year"

[Justice Is Comin]

14. What a load of crapola.

..."According to the Times, the notes do not show that Cheney knew the name of Wilson’s wife. But they do show that Cheney did know, and told Libby she was employed by the CIA and that she may have helped arrange her husband’s trip to Niger."

What did Tenet refer to as, MRS X ? I mean make me believe the moon is square or Elvis lives but don't stretch my legs that far.

[tulsakatz]

17. I believe that Fitzgerald may now be going after the bigger charges.....

.......not just perjury and obstruction of justice.

We now know that Cheney told Libby about Plame (but necessarily her name) and not other journalists as Libby has claimed. And since they have also interviewed some of Wilson't neighbors asking if they knew she was an agent before Novak's column, I believe they are trying to prove that was, indeed covert!!

Hence, the 'we didn't know she was covert' doesn't hold water. Because if even her own neighbors didn't know she was an agent, then surely the govt would have known she was covert. And if they didn't know, they should have found out before releasing any info about her!

[Junkdrawer]

27. Novak published a few "why, EVERYONE knew Plame was CIA" columns...

I hope they fold like a pack of cards.

[longship]

18. Astounding claim!!

This in no way excuses the crime. Ignorance is not an excuse because somebody along the line knew Valerie Wilson's status. It was encumbant on that person to protect her. The extent to which that did not happen is the extent to there has been a crime committed.

But, this all may be totally irrelevant to the indictments being handed down tomorrow. The reason is that the charges are likely going to be for crimes committed after July, 2003 when the White House went into panic mode and began covering up their crime. Just like in Watergate, it was the cover-up which is going to open the door to the collapse of the * administration. There were many more crimes, but it's the cover-up which is going to open the door to investigate them.

[lovuian]

21. They want to spin away from the cover up WHY LIE???

to cover up???

[Junkdrawer]

23. Cover up and perjury are bad. Causing CIA agents to die...

because *someone*, with malice of forethought, outed an agent is treason. And if Cheney were convicted of treason, Bush Co is toast.

[Neil Lisst]

28. They are trying to make it out to be an "oops, didn't mean to"

Now they're trying to sell that they didn't know what she did, just thought everyone knew she was a CIA agent.

Really? Then why did it take a SECRET document to reveal it to Cheney?

They knew, and here's my recreation of how it happened.

[NashVegas]

30. "WINPAC"

Is the CIA arm Libby told Miller that Plame worked for. That's not covert. It was also wrong.

[Junkdrawer]

32. That's what Miller said? Or is that what Libby said?

The Aspens are turning in Aspen....

[LunaC]

31. If they were so "innocent", then why the cover-up?

If they really didn't know (which I don't believe for a second), they could have said so two years ago when this first became an issue. Their excuses don't hold water. (But what else is new?)