The Treaty of Tripoli and the Christianity Question

[McKenzie]

I stumbled across this reference on a Newsgroup (alt.politics.radical-left)>>>

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

It is a clear refutation of those who proclaim the government of the USA is predicated upon Christian principles. The Treaty of Tripoli, for example, clearly rejects the modern premise that the USA is founded upon adherance to the Christian religion>>>

<snip1>

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two
countries.

The Treaty of Tripoli, entered into by the USA under George Washington

</snip1>

<snip2>

In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity Church vs. United States, Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Many Christians use this as evidence. However, Brewer wrote this in dicta, as a personal opinion only and does not serve as a legal pronouncement. Later Brewer felt obliged to explain himself: "But in what sense can be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all."

</snip2>

Maybe I should post this on right wing fundie websites to see the reaction...

<edit>spelling

[Freedom_from_Chains]

1. What can you say

Everything the Christian right says is a lie. Always has been and always will be.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Of course

Just because I personally am a Christian doesn't mean I should lie and be ignorant. Lying is a sin according to the Christian faith. I guess the rightwingers forgot about that huh?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

17. Fundamentalist Christians tend to be a different animal

from mainstream Christians. Mainstream Christians tend to get that lying is not a positive thing and probably something God wouldn't want them to do. For fundamentalist, it tends to be more, does the lie support our position.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. Yes, please post on all rightwing sites.

[ET Awful]

3. When you couple the Treaty of Tripoli with the Constitutional declaration

that any treaty ratified under the tenets set forth by the Constitution becomes the supreme law of the land, it becomes rather hard for any right-wing type to refute with any honesty.

Article VI

Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

[NAO]

4. I would like to see Billboards with "Treaty of Tripoli" near Xtian Schools

It is a sin to lie to children. To teach children that the US was founded as a "Christian Nation" is a lie, and knowing about the Treaty of Tripoli would make it an explicit lie to continue teaching this falsehood.

Billboards on the drive to Churches and Christian Schools would be most useful in this regard.

[merbex]

5. Why did George Washington hate America?

:sarcasm:

[ms liberty]

6. John Adams said...

"The Constitution is in no way founded upon the Christian Religion"

[China_cat]

7. Wouldn't you think that

if the country was founded on 'christian' principles that the people who founded it wouldn't have CLEARLY written that into the operating manual...the constitution? Instead, that document makes no mention of ANY supernatural entity.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. And in the Constiution

God is not mentioned once. If we were a so-called Christian country there wouldn't be "freedom of religion" in the first amendment I don't think.

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. Hey, this is great. Can you add it to my blog?

http://www.livejournal.com/users/gpv/1281.html

[McKenzie]

9. I had a go GreenPartyVoter but my username is taken!

Post this on your blog if you like.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. You can just reply anonyomously if you like :^D

[reprehensor]

11. "Notes on the Founding Fathers and the Separation of Church and State"

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume1/ushistor.htm

Introduction

Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.

Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity. However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."

Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.

Perhaps, to start, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit.

The early church summarized the Christian message in six points:

1. Jesus came from God.
2. You killed him.
3. He rose again on the third day.
4. He sent the Holy Spirit
5. Repent and be baptized.
6. He's coming back.

An individual who would not acknowledge this much of the Christian message could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called a Christian. The founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message. In fact, they denied it.

more@link

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Exactly

The founding fathers were Dietist's. They believed in a Creator and a god but they did not subscribe to any particular religious beliefs. And if they were Christians I don't think George Washington would've been apart of the Free Masonary.

[NAO]

12. "Is America a Christian Nation" - Nontract by Freedom From Religion Org.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation ffrf.org has a series of "non-tracts" to help educate believers and encourage education about freethought. They have a non-tract on this very issue, available on-line, or in quantity as printed items.

Is America a Christian Nation?
http://ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php

excerpt:

The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?

In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams

full text of FFRF Nontract #6 "Is America a Christian Nation" available at above link.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation
http://ffrf.org

[kevinbgoode]

16. When they pull this "America was founded on christian principles" crap on

me. . .I simply point out that obviously they are descended from Tories. . .or Loyalists to the King of England during the War of Independence. Then I explain that the British king was considered an entity directly appointed from GOD HIMSELF, and that adherence to proper christian belief would have required them to remain loyal to God's appointed ruler than leaders of rebellious colonies.

After that, I demand they recite the Bible verses which mention establishment of a republic in God's name, including offices like the President. I tell them that surely, if this was a nation founded on "christian" principles, these principles would be clearly outlined in the Bible, including principles about the proper kind of government to be created to ensure God's principles are enforced.