When did liberalism become about complaining about how people live??

[SmileyBoy]

I have seen a few threads on here recently about people complaining (I'm not gonna name the TYPES of people doing this) about what my or other people's lifestyle choices are in their everyday lives. Complaints from other people about what me or certain people EAT, what me or certain people DO, or where me or certain people SHOP, because it does not fit into a supposed way of showing concern for the world. It's like if someone makes a certain lifestyle choice that does not fit in to this supposed "liberal/progressive mold", they all of a sudden don't give a shit about the state of the world, or the suffering of others, or the problems in this world.

I get stuff on DU like, "Why do you eat fast food?? It's so bad for you, and it contributes to (this or that)!!" "Why do you eat meat?? Animals are suffering for (insert reason here)!!" "Why do you shop at this certain store? Just because it's not Wal-Mart, doesn't mean that (whatever)!!" or "Why do you do that (in general)?? It's wrong, and contributes to (blah blah blah)!!"

There are some TYPES of people, in general, and here on DU, who probably to their chagrin, are in the SAME political ideology as me (liberal/progressive), and seem to think that in order to fit that TRUE LIBERAL/PROGRESSIVE MOLD, so to speak, there are certain things that must be done in the person's life, and things that must NOT be done. Apparently, I am not a true liberal if I eat at Arby's ("fast food is BAD!!!"), or shop at Target ("It's just as bad as Wal-Mart!!!", say some people on DU) or drink Coca-Cola products, or listen to the local rock station, 104.7 The Dam (which is a Clear Channel station), or make any other kind of lifestyle choices that I as an American STILL have the right to make.

I am a poor college student. And guess what?? I can only AFFORD to eat at Taco Bell, and shop at Target, and listen to 104.7 - The Dam (there is basically no community radio in this city), and eat MEAT from a restaurant that has not been purchased for a jacked-up price straight from an organic farmer 30 miles away, and etc. etc. etc. Do you think I have the MONEY to buy all my food straight from a farmer far away?? Do you think my tiny refrigerator would be able to accommodate that food?? There is no Trader Joes in my city!! How will I be able to shop at a place like that?? Hell, I've been active in trying to just get a fucking COSTCO in my city, fer chrissakes. I have 30 dollars in the bank. I cannot live this kind of lifestyle that certain people on DU think I should be living in order to SHOW people and PROVE to everyone that I somehow CARE and have CONCERN for the world and all its problems more than someone who eats Subway and drinks Pepsi and shops at K-Mart.

We are NOT Bushies. We do NOT march in lock-step. We CANNOT march in lock-step. Isn't that what seperates us from the freepers and neocons and other right wing idiots?? That we don't all think in groupthink?? That we all have different tastes and lifestyle choices, and that it should be OK if my buddy wants to chow down on a big juicy cheeseburger once in a while?? That it's ok if he listens to ClearChannel radio sometimes and drinks Mountain Dew?? That it's OK as long as he sees the big picture in this world, and wants Bush and his henchmen and all the other parasites of the right out of power as much as I do??

This may sound like a late-night rant, and it is. I'm trying to be as eloquent as possible, and I'm doing my best to get my point accross. But do you all see what I mean??

[MercutioATC]

1. You'll get those in every group...

...people who are convinced they have the inside track when it comes to living the "right" way.

Screw 'em. Do what makes YOU comfortable.

[SammyBlue]

33. These are the same "liberals" who believe in the censorship of things that

might offend people. Langauge, movies.

I consider them conservatives of a dishonest order: Conservatives do censorship because it's obscene. These fake liberals do it because it's offensive.

Unbelievable. I love being offensive. I love being obscene.

I love Howard Stern, I love George Carlin and I love Opie and Anthony!

[SmileyBoy]

35. Wow...

"Conservatives do censorship because it's obscene. These fake liberals do it because it's offensive."

Can I PLEASE steal this quote from you??:):):)

[SammyBlue]

39. Take it. . .it's yours. Public domain, baby.

No copyrights. I'm a writer, but this is not copyrighted. :)

[T_i_B]

94. The article is now in editorials

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x167053

[MercutioATC]

47. Agreed. I'm kinda naturally offensive (to some people).

I have the distressing quality of saying exactly what I think.

The new chief at my facility is a completely malicious asshole. While I was at work the other day (and I didn't necessarily mean this to come out as audible verbiage) I opined "We should just do a Frankenstein's monster thing and light some torches, storm his office and lynch the fucker."

Followed by the question "was that an outside thought?"


Freedom is all about being able to say what you feel. We do ourselves no favor by trying to pretty it up so it's more palatable to those with sticks up their asses.






Damn! Was that an outside thought?

[Writer]

158. Oooh. You have just awakened the beast in me.

I was accused of being a racist by a "popular" DU'er in another forum. A RACIST when my husband is of that VERY SAME RACE. They (gender neutral) do not know me from Adam but decided to take it upon themselves to bang the PC drum in revolt to my mentioning a SOUTH PARK EPISODE.

What do I say to that now? Fuck 'em.

:rant:

[zanne]

93. You can take the advice, or ignore it.

But don't attempt to censor people on this board because you're more conservative than most here. That's really what you're talking about. Maybe you just haven't noticed yourself becoming conservative, but, baby, it's happening. And if you find yourself getting angry about people who, for example, don't eat meat because it means you have to kill animals, then think about the people who really, really, object to animals being killed for someone else's satisfaction. We all have opinions. Your attack is a common conservative one; ridicule people who are liberal and progressive and trivialize their concerns because you don't share them. Well, I'm a REAL progressive, and I'll continue to be that TYPE of person whether you like it or not. You will not censor or intimidate my TYPE by posting a temper tantrum.

[AngryAmish]

124. the anti-smoking types are the worst

A boot on the face forever - they truly hate liberty and individual freedom.

[salvorhardin]

2. Ignore them. It's just the neopuritans.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1596540,00.html?gusrc=rss

[SmileyBoy]

14. That was a very fascinating article.

I only read through about half of it, but it's very interesting indeed.

Thanks for passing it along.

[Cassius23]

46. I have a question re;cannabis smoking..

So, what if you grow and smoke cannabis or, say, mushrooms?

Now hear me out. You can get totally organic supplies from a gardening store and the seeds you can buy from people in Amsterdam, Canada or something like that and they get their seeds from crops they grow domestically and only share it with people that already use cannabis(oh, and it obviously is done in the privacy of one's own home, so exposing other people to smoke isn't done).

Other than that, I read the article and they seem heavy on the delay, very, very light on the gratification.

[sweetheart]

131. tell me about it

A bunch of tossers thinks that hedonism is a few drinks!! :-)

Ahh, not knowing the pleasures of a sticky cannabis bud, they are but
youngsters, overgrown teenagers who've never been fucked of done any
fucking. What makes the grossly inexperienced feel like they have any
moral right to feel superior?

Control freaks who die in suffering seems to be what they're selling.

So, in answer to your question. Cannabis smoking is legal, and you can
smoke it whenever you want. :-) Even better for home growers and
the like, as they can participate in such an economy, safely providing
an opening for the republicans to imprison the lot of us, and
strip away our votes so that we can be ruled by peurile fools.

... naah... "bubble bubble"... a cloud of stinky sweet smoke
swirling away illusion, exhale... What did you say? :-)

[melody]

3. There are lots who think liberal is only a noun

We're not something because we call ourselves, obviously, but we call ourselves what we are. Liberal is properly, in this instance, an adjective. A lot of people who call themselves "liberals" are actually quite control-minded and into telling people what to think, feel and how to behave. You'll always find a few in every group.

[pecwae]

92. Thank you! nt

[Retired AF Dem]

164. melody

I think I love you. :) And you are so right.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. You are free to do as you wish and people are free to point out

the collective consequences of all the "you's" doing what you are free to do that may be irresponsible toward the rest of the world that all the "you's" occupy.

[madeline_con]

11. "... may be irresponsible toward the rest of the world ..."

It's good that you've taken on the responsibility of looking out for the rest of the world.

[SmileyBoy]

12. ONE... TWO... THREE... YOU GOT ZINGED!!!

LOL!!! Awesome!!:D:D:D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. No

Just simply acknowledging I live in one

[Trajan]

29. Some still possess an altruistic worldview ....

an un-cynical viewpoint that EACH OF US can do something, or say something, that can change a life, or can change the world ...

I understand your cynicism, but I do not share it ....

There is nothing wrong with 'looking out for the rest of the world' ... In fact, I find it far more admirable than whining about how the world is trying to control your actions ....

[MojoXN]

108. What's the screen capture from?

PLEASE tell me that the idiot on the left is a Republican...

MojoXN

[ultraist]

117. Yes, and some understand that our lifestyle choices do affect others

Americans have to be, the most self centered, materialistic pigs, on the planet.

[Lorien]

184. And yet if we look up the word "liberal", we'll find that we were intended

to be the antithesis of that very republican mindset. How and why have things changed? Are liberals now the new libertarians?

[Lorien]

183. Thank you

well said, NSMA. With so much cynicism out there it's no wonder why we find ourselves where we are today.With more awareness, education, compassion,drive and activism, we could indeed change the world for the better. Rampant cynicism has left many feeling hopeless and adrift without true leaders, and it doesn't need to be this way.

[TahitiNut]

73. Well, gosh. Somebody's got to.

:evilgrin:

[jobycom]

18. Sis, it is too late at night

for sentences that long and complex!!! :-) I'll have to read this again in the morning to see if I agree or not!

[mirandapriestly]

135. I agree, some want to not take responsibility for what they do nt

[I Have A Dream]

138. Yep -- that about says it all. We all have our voice and free will.

Personally, I believe in choice, so I try not to "judge" other people unless they're hurting other people. However, just as the OP has the right to do as he/she chooses, I have the right to make the decision as to whether I want to remark upon it.

However, usually, if I comment on it, I'm usually just pointing out something about which I think they might not be aware. For example, many people think that Target really is much, much better than Wal-Mart. If I were to mention that Target is not "much, much better", it would only be to give them the true facts so that they can really make an informed decision as to whether they want to go to Target.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

141. If one person pours toxins down a storm drain, it will not cause

irreparable harm because it is simply one person doing it. If millions do, it becomes a huge problem. This is the issue with the "why can't I do what I wanna do?" mentality...that rugged individualist.

Of all the issues cited by the OP, perhaps the WalMart one is the best to look at. Not only do they drive down wages and suppress competition with their monster status...they also cost communities millions and in some cases billions in social services usually depended upon by the poor and disabled by underemploying people (i.e. hiring 20 part time workers as opposed to 10 full time to avoid providing benefits reserved for full time employees.)

A poster further down in the thread wonders how Ceasar Chavez could have ever accomplished anything without those people willing to boycott table grapes.

While some liberals can be obstinate about liberal/progressive practices, I also think the "personal freedom" crowd could at least acknowledge that they don't live in a "personal" world...they live in a world with lots of other people and not all resources are infinite.

[sendero]

168. If we could all just..

... agree on those consequences, all would be copacetic :)

[the_spectator]

5. You got it! There's nothing worse than those types of people who...

complain about how other people live!!! They are the worst, and should be ashamed of themselves! What kind of people are they, I mean, really! Well, for what it's worth, I'm registering my serious complaint against those types right here with you! You go, boy!

[madeline_con]

6. K MART was closed, and we don't have a Costco...

I drink Coke and shop at Walmart. So sue me.

I'd love to eat only organicfood,but I'm not made of $ either. :)

[leftofthedial]

7. it didn't

[Celeborn Skywalker]

8. Good rant.

I'm a college student also and can only afford Wal-Mart. When I have more money I'll shop elsewhere but right now I just don't have the means.

[Protagoras]

9. While I understand where you're coming from

I think there is a serious need to discuss the difference between socially progressive, and utterly relativistic or absurdly permissive.

Inclusiveness does not mean valueless. And as I've posted elsewhere, being a Big Tent still means you have walls, a roof, and a floor. IN other words...there are limits.

We don't necessarily have the SAME limites or the same rigid outlook at Freepers...in fact we pride ourselves on being open to NEW ideas (that does not being accepting of ALL NEW ideas.) This means we are willing to give them a fair shake...to admit when we are wrong...to work hard to find a reasonable and objective criterion for judging what we do.

And as liberals we value the social good. We also tend to emphasize work on behalf of the young, poor, and disadvantaged over the indivudal, the corporate, and the wealthy. That doesn't mean we utterly reject all those things. But it means we have a common philosophy which is skewed in favor of one set of beliefs over the opposing set of beliefs.

Liberalism is a political, social and economic philosophy...but it is a philosophy. It has changed over time...it has mutated several times...but some of these things remain.

It isn't always clear cut. We value healthcare. And we value privacy. We value education, and we value the rights of parents...and sometimes these values are in conflict and we have to argue among ourselves and come to a consensus about how to weight the competiting priorities.

It's not a simple case of...We accept everyone...and they don't. We have some values...and sometimes they are clearcut...and we do expect our fellow liberals to unify under those ideas. Other issues are more cloudy or unclear and on those we have the same debates anyone else would have. However, we should always be guided by the best of our progressive values at least to the extent that they are evident in the issue.

So I suggest, on those issues where you see Liberals/progressives telling you how to live...look and see what's being articulated? It's not just about control usually...it's often much more complex. And as such...it deserves attention and reasoned responses. That doesn't always mean we have clarity or that it's right...but I usually find that progressives are trying their best to give it more open and reflective thought than those in the opposition.

[renate]

26. that's a very thoughtful response--thank you

I do my best to buy organic food, I don't eat meat, we pay a few bucks extra to the power company for "green" energy, blah blah blah... but we don't have a hybrid (because we're going to drive our 6-year-old cars till they're at least 10), and we have a big-ass TV (because we had a tiny one for 20 years)....

Oh, look, I'm justifying myself! Having grown up in a blessedly progressive home, it's become sort of a reflex to feel guilty every time I buy something that isn't advertised in The Nation or do something hedonistic like turn the thermostat up a notch.

We've all got our own levels of comfort--politically, materialistically, whatever--and I think most of us are pretty comfortable with each others' choices, since we're, you know, liberal--as long as someone's choice isn't to rob the poor and give tax breaks to the wealthy, and stuff like that.

I think the difference between us and the "I've got mine, screw you if you try to get yours" contingent is that we are at least aware that our actions have consequences that affect others and that impact the greater good. And most of us, I think, do what we are able to do--given individual financial situations--to leave the world better than we found it or at least to minimize our footprint on it.

But how we choose to do that... well, that's going to vary. Which is great--we'll cover more bases that way.

[Union Thug]

10. A couple of things..

First, I definately agree that there is some truth to the myth of the elitist liberal. Not necessarily the caricature that the repukes want to burn into the collective conciousness of the population, but certainly those that hold their degrees in their hands successes over the heads the masses and talk down about others who aren't as accomplished as themselves. I work with a woman like this. She's an NPR blowhard who constantly rants about why so and so is 'just a construction worker' and that sort of bullshit. My roots and family are old school, blue collar liberals and this woman lives in a kind of fantasy meritocracy than none of us can relate to on any level.

But I will say this, I don't have a problem with people trying to educate others on some of the issues you have brought up. For example, the labor movement in this country will never gain a foothold so long as people are shopping at WalMart in droves or while coca cola is actively suppressing organizing over the border. I won't buy Coors beer and neither should anyone who cares about working people. There are just some things we need to do to play a small part in changing the world.

I can't afford to shop at Trader Joe's either (and frankly, we're doing pretty good compared to others). I can't afford to feed my family a diet of locally grown, organic food either. But I do what I can within our means to be as socially responsible as possible.

You're right. Many of us don't have the luxury of standing on the soap box. But just do the best you can - I think that's all we can ask or expect of eachother.

[SmileyBoy]

13. I agree, but I have extremely limited means.

My circumstance as a poor college student in a small city that is not known for progressive culture is different than that of someone with a good job and an apartment who lives in a large city with all those alternatives. I will say that if I was living in a larger city, and had my degree and was making money, I would seek some of alternatives to shopping, eating, etc. that does less harm to the world, but until then, my local culture and my financial situation has basically entrapped me into a certain living standard that I cannot break out of until I have my own place, and a regular job, etc.

[Union Thug]

114. I hear what you're saying...

Again, just do what you can do and don't let the proselytizers get ya down.

At risk of babbling unecessarily, I'm of the opinion that all those satellite issues are meaningless until we have achieved the primary goal of the Left - economic justice. You're story bears this out. If people do not have a decent income and medical care, everything else (all those leftie buzz-issues you outline), become meaningless and irrelevant. So, if we could all stop acting like a herd of preoccupied cats and come together on this one thing, it would ultimately further the progress of the others.

As I read from a Lithuanian Soviet dissident, the problem with America is that you've got your perception of rights poorly prioritized. If you don't have a decent income and access to healthcare, all the other so called rights become secondary concerns. Who the fuck cares about access to a priest if I can't get my child the operation she needs?

Keep fighting the good fight!

[nashbridges]

171. I was broke ass in college

And not particularly politically minded at the time since I was in the engineering school, and it served as its own self-contained circle of hell.

Dominos or Papa John's ran a special one week my junior year for two pizzas for eight bucks, and I ordered four because that could get me through the week. Some dipshit down the hall (apartment building, not a dorm) saw me eating a slice in my room, walked in uninvited, and promptly threw the entire rest of one pizza in my trash can. Apparently the pizza company was supporting anti-abortion groups or something. He suggested I order from Armand's. This kid had made it all the way to the ripe old age of 21 without ever having held a part-time job. I had two at the time.

One punch and several very angry words later, we had an agreement: Pizza from Armand's was $25 a pizza (5 dollars more than the 20 I had for food that week), the dipshit in question was an asshole, and if he ever threw my food out again I was going to eat off his meal card (which I couldn't afford) for free for a week.

He seemed absolutely shocked that my need to eat overruled my need to make a political stand. That one experience lends itself to both arguments in this thread: people shouldn't HAVE to make such choices and other people shouldn't bitch too much if some do.

And yes, I fished the pizza out of the trash and continued eating it for the rest of the week. 16 dollars for a week's worth of food at the time was outstanding, especially since I didn't have a kitchen.

It's not a "liberal" thing to criticize the way other people live. It's a human thing. The trick, especially if you are liberal, is to try and remember there might be a good reason the person you are criticizing is doing what they do - and try and find a way to remedy it that doesn't offend them. There isn't any point in lecturing a person driving a 1982 Chevy Caprice about the benefits of driving a hybrid, because if they could afford one, they wouldn't be in a 1982 Caprice in the first place.

/Two cents.

[jobycom]

15. Thank you, SmileyBoy, and yes, that bothers me, too.

Well said.

[Trajan]

16. You state that you dont wish to walk lock step with others ...

or participate in 'groupthink' .... Yet you are yourself attempting to control how others behave and follow a path which YOU define as proper and correct ....

I see a sort of contradiction in this collection of statements .... But I think we catch your drift ....

Why not just disagree with the 'elites' when you feel you disagree ? ... Speak your mind, as needed, on a case by case basis ....

Your statement that 'Liberalism' has done something homogenously and monolithically, is simply false .... 'Liberalism' is a collection of policy preferences based on personal philosophies ... Individual liberals do NOT walk precisely in 'lock step', but do agree on a number of policy issues. To say that "Liberalism" has changed is fallacious, since you recognize in your own comments that 'some' liberals promote an elitist agenda ... It is obvious that only a few violate your rules ....

I am confused whether you are attempting to remove the straitjacket, or put one on ...

[SmileyBoy]

17. I am NOT trying to convince people to do ANYTHING in my rant.

PLEASE go back and read my rant again. I am not trying to convince ANYBODY to live their lives in ANY SPECEFIC OR GENERAL WAY. I am on the DEFENSIVE here. I am saying that people should BACK OFF on my right to live my life the way I feel it should be lived.

You read and interpreted this thing the way you wanted it to sound, not the actual way it sounded.

[Trajan]

25. I read it ....

"I get stuff on DU like, "Why do you eat fast food?? It's so bad for you, and it contributes to (this or that)!!" "Why do you eat meat?? Animals are suffering for (insert reason here)!!" "Why do you shop at this certain store? Just because it's not Wal-Mart, doesn't mean that (whatever)!!" or "Why do you do that (in general)?? It's wrong, and contributes to (blah blah blah)!!"

You act as if these are commandments .... They are simply advisements ...

Fast food IS bad for you : who is saying you cannot eat it ? ..

Eating meat ISNT necessary for nutrition ; who is demanding you stop ? ...

It is impossible to interpret why you would complain about "Why do you do that (in general)?? It's wrong, and contributes to (blah blah blah)!"
, since it seems you are just expressing anger at anyone who questions what you might do or have done .....

NO one is 'demanding' you do anything ... yet you act as if no one is allowed to give you advise, or ask you questions ... You live in a world, and the world is filled with ignorant human beings, and those human beings speak with their mouths, and they say stupid things all the time .... You will never be immune to human beings saying stupid things ....

What I see in this thread is fear of weakness, expressed as anger ... YOU are unwilling to stand up and defend your own decisions, or better yet, to simply ignore those who would question your choices, and you have instead decided to come here and state that liberalism has changed and has made your life miserable ....

NO ONE is demanding you do a damned thing: IF you are not strong enough to brush off attempts to 'control you' ... then that is your own fault ; dont blame us ....

Liberalism hasnt changed one whit .....

[SmileyBoy]

28. No, the issue is...

The attitude of "I'm a better liberal than you, because I shop at (blank) and I don't eat meat, and I don't eat fast food, etc. I have more concern for the world than you because of this."

The issue isn't people TELLING ME to do this stuff, it's people GIVING THE NOTION TO ME that they are better liberals than me because they do blah blah blah.

I SPECIFICALLY STATED this in my rant.

[Trajan]

32. Why do you care so much what others think of you ? ...

I too am poor ... I eat fast food (knowing it is bad for me) .. I too eat meat (yet I know it is morally wrong, since there are plentiful substitutes for protien in this world) .. and I rarely shop at Wal-Mart (even though I despise the company as an anchor around the necks of the community) ....

Being a liberal dont mean you are a PERFECT human being, but that you do your best to promote policies that benefit the common man/woman/family.

SURELY .. there are the liberal elites who demand a more stringent adherence to more extreme and austere philosophies ... But so the fuck what ? ... WHO the fuck CARES what someone thinks about you eating fast food ? ... Yeah: it is probably not the BEST choice, for many reasons ... but the reality is: you ARE free to make that choice ...

I see some liberals acting in this way; but I have never paid them any mind, nor do I worry about what they think of me ... But it is rare that any liberal is so blatantly elitist .... Hence why I question your broad attack on liberalism, or what I presumed was such an attack.

Maybe I am not suited to reacting to 'rants' .... especially those that are critical of 'liberals' ... because I am here to defend liberals, and liberalism, and so I am not sympathetic to such complaints .... I have never once 'given you the notion' that I am better than you because of 'blah blah blah', and so I shouldnt feel compelled to react to your anger ... But I sense you are attacking liberalism, and making broad, sweeping statements about liberalism, and it gets my gander up ...

SURELY we should eat better, and eat veggies and NON meats, and drive small cars, if at all, and do EVERYTHING that is perfectly right and good ... but we are human beings, and we have to be able to live within our own bodies with reasonable comfort. I will never be perfect, and neither will I do as others ask, request or demand simply because it is what a 'perfect liberal' would do .... But that doesnt mean the advice is bad .... I give what I hope is good advice, but I do not demand others follow it ....

I simply dont give a fuck if someone doesnt like MY version of liberalism .... But I do care about the success of the liberal movement in general .... We MUST agree on a minimal set of issues around which we will coalesce into a strong and unified party ... Whether or not YOU eat fast food or eat meat will not detract one iota from that unity ....

In the end: we will probably vote the same in the booth ...

[yewberry]

20. Sure.

I'd like very much if you might provide a link where veg*ns told you what to eat. Frankly, many of us are tired of this stereotype. In case you were wondering (although it appears that you were not,) some of us are poor, too. Please do not assume that veg*ns are some kind of frigging yuppies.

Thanks.

[SmileyBoy]

21. I might have to pull out this gem from the archives...

Where a certain DUer (I will not divulge his/her name) said to me PERSONALLY in response to my question "If you had the choice, would you want to take away my legal right to eat meat, so that eating meat would be a crime??", clearly said that YES THEY WOULD, but then tried to beat around the bush in that answer, then when I repeated what he/she said, he/she denied that they ever said it.

It might take me a few minutes...

[SiouxJ]

112. Well if you're going to pose a question like that

then you shouldn't complain that people are telling you their opinion of what you should or shouldn't eat. Why ask in the first place if you don't want to get into the discussion? Seems like a totally baited question to me and then you come here now and complain that people are telling you what you should and shouldn't do. If you're going to ask, people are going to tell you what they think (duh). I really don't understand why you would bitch about this when you brought it up in the first place.

I didn't see that baited thread but I have to say, I've never seen a veggie DUer preach to others here about what they should not eat. We may explain why we don't eat things but I haven't seen a blatant, constant lecture by my peers, as you have inferred by this post.

[smbolisnch]

140. You twisted my message then, and you are still doing it.

Shocked, just shocked, that you would do such a thing. :sarcasm:

[WhollyHeretic]

155. You ASKED a question and someone ANSWERED it? OMG you poor dear

Are you OK?

[SmileyBoy]

22. It seems like all the college students here are giving me a "hell yeah"

In response to this rant.

They understand the kind of life we live.

[Protagoras]

23. Hmmm 5 years of student housing

and plenty of Ramen in my not so distant past and I don't agree. There, see...not walking in lockstep at all. But I still don't agree with most of the original post. I think it's largely constructed on a false concept of liberalism and is reacting to a very few extreme to the point of being strawman examples.

But Cheers, relax, have a beer...and enjoy yer late night rant.

[SmileyBoy]

24. To be tolerant of other's lifestyles is a false concept of liberalism??

LOL

[Protagoras]

31. what distinguishes liberalism

from absolute relativism or simple anarchy under your definition?

[Seabiscuit]

166. I started college 42 years ago and I'm giving you a "heel yeah" too!

I say just fuck those PC mofos if they can't take a joke.

[WindRavenX]

182. Another fellow college student- I agree 100% with what you said

I am DIRT ASS POOR.

I can't BUY organic. I can't BUY shit that I normally would IF I HAD THE MONEY.
I used to be a veggie. But then I couldn;t afford it because I went to college.
One day, when I have money, I will go back, but until then, I simply CANNOT afford it.

And if anyone gives you grief about this, SB, tell them THEY should send a blank check so you can live their lifestyle :hi:

[Raine]

27. That's why often liberals take

lots of abuse and criticism because they can be self-righteous, pompous, elitists snobs. I know I get tired of it, everyone does the best they can but we all can't be perfect riding bikes and eating organic.

[cynatnite]

30. I need a good title for my post :)

There are those who do hate to see SUVs on the road, Walmarts, and other products they consider obscene to the progressive eye. My belief is if a person feels strongly enough about something boycott it.

They can enlighten others as to why people shouldn't shop at Walmart, own an SUV, or other things which some feel contributes to republican supporting corporations. I don't feel the same in many instances for the reason that blue collar workers are employed by these 'red' companies.

We're in a global economy and the world is a much different place than it was even ten years ago. People have been forced to adapt to those changes in ways that are offensive to some progressives.

Many people live by their pocketbooks and don't have the luxury of boycotting Walmart or other corporations because of their political contributions. Many progressives here at DU recognize this. A few, not many, still don't accept it.

One thing I will speak to that you mentioned...fast food chains. You're not getting away totally clean on this. No matter if it's Taco Bell, McD's, Burger King or whatever...it's still cheaper to eat at home than out. It would not only save money, but health wise, it's better to eat at home even if you make your own tacos, hamburgers or whatever the case may be.

We do a lot of that here. Eating healthy at home isn't at the top of the list, but we do tacos, hamburgers, cookies, etc. It's mostly by scratch, but that's because I'm a cooking nut :)

Now, it's up to each person to live their lives as they see fit, but don't dismiss out of hand information that's offered. There is some very good advice given here by some knowledgeable people on ways to save money and still stick to a lot of progressive beliefs.

It's up to you whether or not you choose to take the well-meaning advice. No one can make you. But keep in mind, we all still have to live as responsibly as we can.

[Skittles]

34. SHOULD I KICK THEIR ASS, SM ILEYBOY ?

I'm guilty of SUVism, I don't like SUVs, but that's it.....I don't fault a lot of folk for shopping where they do or what they eat because I think the choices are all too often very limited. I am all too aware, for example, that many, many people cannot afford to eat fresh fruit daily, even though it is constantly advised that people do so - I try to but it is VERY pricey.

[SmileyBoy]

37. No, that's OK.

You already have kicked enough asses.:D

BTW, read the article on neopuritanism. The link is in reply #2.

[Skittles]

43. will do

I was looking for something to read....just got back from the Deep Ellum clubs in Dallas and am wired

[TheWraith]

36. Amen, and amen.

Some people here really do go way over the line. Some of the worst, or at least the most vocal, are the ones who talk about politics. I can't count the number of temper tantrums I've seen puritans here go through because some Dem politician did something or said something that wasn't precisely the way the puritan wanted it.

You're absolutely correct: we don't operate in ditto-think. I'm reminded of a great line from The West Wing: President Bartlett mentions to Governor Baker that the Dem candidates really need to come up a consensus ticket to bring some party unity. Baker jestingly replies "Party unity? We're Democrats."

Some of the most dedicated Democrats you'll ever find are people who eat fast food, drive pickup trucks, and even shop at Walmart. What unites us is our fundamental belief in equality, in giving everyone a fair chance, and in protecting our American way of life. Liberty, Equality, and Security.

[SmileyBoy]

38. Thank you for the reply.

Read the article on neopuritanism in reply #2.

[TheWraith]

40. And oy vey.

I took awhile in posting this response. In the meantime, the thread seems to have attracted many of the exact people who want to lecture others for not being perfect, and who are now lecturing you for criticizing their excessive lecturing... Oy.

[cynatnite]

41. People are putting in their two cents...

Anyone who expects a certain kind of reply to their post is setting themselves up for a big letdown.

[SmileyBoy]

42. That's OK.

Luckily, I get this kind of attitude only from online discussions, and not from people I know in real life. Then again, I live in a real mainstream, meat-eating, elbow-greased, hard-farming, hard-farting Midwestern city.

[sufrommich]

110. And if democrats are ever going

to be a long lasting majority again,we need to start reflecting the values and concerns of the very people you describe.I too am from the midwest and every time some so called progressive lectures people on the economic choices they make(like shopping at Walmart)or the culture
choices they make (owning guns and hunting being the big ones here)we lose another Democrat.Look,be whatever you want to be.If shopping at Walmarts or eating at fast food places bothers your conscience,don't do it.You can let people know how you feel without sounding like their benevolent intellectual superior or as if their choices are made out of ignorance.Not everybody is willing to wear their politics as if it were their religion.I've seen many people on this forum who remind me of religious fundamentalist without the religion.

[expatriot]

49. as i see it, you are raising two points.... one i agree wholeheartedly

the other i don't see as a problem whatsover.

Yes, there are the "ideologues" who will dismiss an elected official as a "DLCer" with the slightest provocation. but I do not see threads or posts on DU that are like "How can you call yourself a progressive if you eat fast food!" or anything like that.

i may have missed something though.

[awoke_in_2003]

57. "Party unity? We're Democrats."

Spin off of Roy Rogers quote: "I am not a member of any organized party--I am a Democrat."

[IntravenousDemilo]

77. That would be Will Rogers. n/m

[awoke_in_2003]

84. quite right...

a mistake like that proves that i need to get some sleep.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. AWESOME!

I have seen the same thing. If one dares to question the 'cause du jour,' there will be hell to pay! It really isn't even a matter of money. I have been unemployed for 2.5 years, but I have a partner with a good job. We try to shop at "good" places, but I can't even keep up with who is 'in' and who is 'out.' Honestly, I don't care. As much as I try to good for others, I have to take care of myself and my loved ones.

You are also right about some who are NO different than the "right-wing fundies!" If you don't think, dress, eat, and believe the way they do you are a bad liberal, or even worse, a "freeper!" It gets really old! It gets old that we should have all the same heroes and enemies. And here, all this time, I thought, being a liberal meant we were supposed to be free thinkers!

Good on you! Great 'rant!'

[expatriot]

48. i would love to see examples of this. any links? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

50. examples of?

Check out a PETA thread, check out the I/P forum, check out the Gun forum. The examples are there for the picking.

[expatriot]

53. So you think the problem is consumer activism?

If DU was around during the Cesar Chavez's grape boycott, I suppose people would be posting threads asking people not to buy grapes. I suppose you'd be opposed to such threads.

If DU was around in the 1850's, I suppose people would be posting threads about how you shouldn't buy "slave" cotton. I suppose you'd be opposed to those threads too.

When I asked for links I thought you'd give me links to threads that had the title "You can't eat meat and be a progressive" or "If you shop at Wal-Mart how can you dare show your face here?"

Consumer activism has always been a huge part of progressive politics. Do you advocate there should be no such thing or just that it shouldnt't be proliferated on DU?

[Behind the Aegis]

58. How bizarre.

I think your post is what the OP was talking about!

There is nothing wrong with suggesting boycotting this or that, the problem the OP was talking about was people who didn't follow the boycott were traitors to the liberal/progressive movement. No where did either of us say don't talk about what you feel is important, but don't demand that others think and feel the same as you at all times then declare they are not real progressives/liberals.

[expatriot]

62. this is what I wanted you to show me links to threads about.....

i don't see these demands. what do these demands sound like....

If you don't stop eating meat I am going to kick your ass!!!!

If you don't stop shopping at Wal-Mart I will never talk to you again!!!!

if this is a common phenomena, it shouldn't be hard to find links.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. Here you go!

DUers and fast food - i don't get it.

and the best quote from the thread:

"on one hand you claim to be progressive and liberal and caring, yet you patronise these establishments that do as much or more to harm our environment as just about anything else for their size, not to mention the horrific conditions the animals are kept in before they make their way into your happy meal."

There's one. Need more? Or are you willing to admit some here are just as rigid as the right?!

[cynatnite]

65. There are always a few idiots in any group...

They talk down to people and make asses of themselves. The OP of this thread you cited is a prime example and very hard to even take seriously.

Thankfully, the replies prove this person is a minority.

[Behind the Aegis]

69. So very true!

However, the thread I provided showed exactly what the OP of this thread was talking about. There is even a thread by another long time poster who was called a freeper and was fed up (Some people are assholes AKA mean people suck). It is a shame when we can't disagree politely. Even you and I have crossed swords, but have also supported one another, but we have never called the other names or implied either of us were "less than" liberals.

I agree that most of the "rigid" are a minority, but they are damn annoying! Dontcha think so? If not...you must be a freeper! LOL! :)

[expatriot]

68. well, okay.... that one is pretty bad. okay.

yeah, that is a shame. but the original post doesn't really make it clear as to whether the complaint is about consumer activism in general or the tone in which consumer activism is presented.

Let me go to bed damn it! It is 2:20AM and us REAL liberals who don't eat meat and don't shop at Wal-Mart like to sleep now and then.

joking of course.

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Sleep well...

...when you read this...know that each side, right and left, have our own 'internal' issues. We shouldn't be always be trying to out "liberal" one another, but working to make the world a better place and still retain our individuality.

[gorbal]

80. If we didn't have threads like that here I wouldn't feel I was on DU

I think the poster on that thread has a point. He or she just needs to realize that convincing people is much more effective than making them angry.

[IntravenousDemilo]

81. Consumer activism is all well and good

for those who can afford it and have choices. I think our common cause would be better served by concentrating on ensuring that the maximum number of people have the money that will allow them to make progressive choices, with a minimum impact on strained finances. I love organic food, for instance, because I care about my health and, well, it tastes way better. But for me, for now, it's just too fucking expensive.

Let's work on full employment with decent wages, free tuition, and universal public health care. The other stuff will follow.

In the meantime, how be if you put your money where your mouth is and send SmileyBoy some cash so he doesn't have to eat at TacoSmell or shop at Target all the time?

[expatriot]

45. links to examples you are talking about? nt

[rman]

51. "a few threads" don't make "liberalism is about"

You make a valid point, but it's not as bad as the title of your post suggests.
Also i find it hard to imagine that eating out is cheaper the cooking your own meals.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Have you seen some of the deals out there?!

Here in OK, at Taco Bueno, you can get ten items for $10! Cooked and ready to go. However, a can of tuna...$1, same as two cans of soup. Ten items last longer than one or two servings. Usually, it is cheaper to eat in, put with recent price changes, that isn't always true. Of course, I don't know about ND, but in OK, college students get meal plans and many can be used at fast food places (on campus).

[nashbridges]

174. meal plans are paid for

By either parents or the student. If, like I was, you are a poor student stuck with no parental support (through no fault of their own, mind you), then the meal plan is not an economical option. Ever.

GWU wanted $2,500 for nine months of FOOD while I was there. They wanted another $8,900 for rent. And it all ended at the end of the school year.

I paid $5,500 for rent for a year, and less than $1800 for food for a year my first year off campus. And I had to earn that money.

[devilgrrl]

52. Personally, I think the most politically correct whiners are disruptors.

Seriously! :wow:

[akarnitz]

54. It's a GREAT BIG tent, kiddo

so just walk on by when ya need to, ignore who ya have to, and hang with the folks ya need to.

I've got my own f'rinstance. Every now and then someone trolls into the sports forum and shakes a shaming finger into others' faces. "Why are you wasting your time chatting about football/baseball/duck pin bowling?" Because I want/need to blow off some steam, dammit! One can go to the crcus for a couple of hours, no? I wouldn't suggest livin' there, but I wanna see someone get shot out of a cannon today! Then I'll go home and save the world. Geeeez.

Sly Stone put it best:
Different strokes/For different folks
And so on
And so on
And scooby dooby doo
I am everyday people
;-)

[expatriot]

60. and that is exactly what they are.... trolls. completely different

than someone advocating some consumer activism. I would agree that there 'd be a problem with "consumer activists" crossing the line and being beligerant if animal rights advocates start posting threads with the tile "MEAT IS MURDER!!!! YOU ARE MURDEROUS SCUM!!!!" in the cooking forums but I don't see this happening, perhaps I am wrong.

[expatriot]

56. liberalism has always been about consumer activism.

mostly reposted from Post 53... need to go to bed... it's 2AM.
------------------------------------------------------------------
If DU was around during the Cesar Chavez's grape boycott, I suppose people would be posting threads asking people not to buy grapes. I suppose you'd be opposed to such threads.

If DU was around in the 1850's, I suppose people would be posting threads about how you shouldn't buy "slave" cotton. I suppose you'd be opposed to those threads too.

I can see you having a point if there were beligerent threads that persecuted people for eating meat or shopping at Wal-Mart but i don't see those threads.

Consumer activism has always been a huge part of progressive politics. Do you advocate there should be no such thing or just that it shouldnt't be proliferated on DU?

[beam me up scottie]

59. I welcome the consumer information and advice I get from other DU'ers.

Being aware of how you affect your environment is a liberal value.

What one does about it is up to them.

Freepers don't care about the planet or most of its inhabitants and they also love to whine about the social conscience of liberal "elites".

[beam me up scottie]

61. It didn't.

Did someone tell you you weren't a liberal?

[Behind the Aegis]

64. Someone told me that I was Mossad.

Of course, I had them whacked! :rofl: I am kidding, of course. I am sure that some would believe it. If they do, I demand they contact Sharon NOW and tell him to send me my paycheck! Two and a half years unemployed sucks....where's mine?!?

BMUS, I know you will get this post. :)

[beam me up scottie]

67. Yep, you 're part of the vast IJC.

I knew it all along.

:evilgrin:

If you get bored, I think I can get you into the EAC.

2 1/2 years unemployed?

Egad.

6 months wiped out every dime I had in savings.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Shalom!

You, of course, know that is our secret word for "conquest" and just pretend it means "peace." :evilgrin:

Yes, 2.5 years with no job! Thanks to the economy "turning the corner" and slamming into a wall and higher education getting massive budget cuts in all states and federally, my cute little gay Jewish ass sits at home. THANKFULLY, I have a partner who rakes in the sheckels. Well, not really. But, thankfully my "heritage" has made me good at budgeting! LOL! I had to cash in my retirement, health insurance, and a few other things, but, we have a roof, food, clothing, pets, and love...so I am much better off than many people. I wish I was making money, but I have many other things to be thankful for in my life.

My master's degree and six languages can get me a job at Wal-Mart for minimum wage, no benefits, and the scorn of fellow liberals. I think I will sit at home and be an internet pundit! :)

[beam me up scottie]

72. I KNEW IT!!!

You people are all the same...

Mods, please don't delete, I kid, I kid!

Did you know that you guys have competition?

The AOG is amassing power as we type.

http://www.geocities.com/beaver_militia/recon.html

[Behind the Aegis]

75. LMAO!!!!

So what are they gonna do? Build a barn?! We will build a bank! And charge fees like you have never seen!

Most of them are silent. How will they do in a debate with us?! I mean...two Jews, three opinions! How can they even think to compete!?

No. They are woefully under-prepared for the JIC! Besides, haven't you noticed they dress like our Orthodox branch? Is it really a "different" movement or have you been to "shy" to "lock" into a real position?!

LMAO!!!

BMUS...you are a bad influence on me! It is is a shame that it feels so good to be so bad! :rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

79. BWAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

A bad influence?

Moi?

You sound like my ex mother-in-law!

[Behind the Aegis]

82. HAHA!!!

Unless she was a JAP, you don't know hell!

Jews and Catholics have two things in common...our mothers and guilt!

You should want that I keep checking for a response? Don't bother! I can do without it. Why should I feel that my opinion matters? I am just me. Nothing special. My own family would agree. So, nu...no response needed. I don't want you to feel I made you talk to me. I don't mind. I like writing to the air.

Thanks for the chat. Call your mother! She worries!

:)

BMUS...you are a riot! I needed a good laugh tonight/this morning.

[Missy Vixen]

104. I hope it's a better year for you

>I wish I was making money, but I have many other things to be thankful for in my life.<

Behind the Aegis, L'shanah Tovah, and here's to many blessings for you and your partner this year!

Julie

[Behind the Aegis]

152. THANK YOU!

How very sweet!

L'shanah Tova to you. Blessings to you and your loved ones!

BtA

[rfkrfk]

66. politics attracts busybodies

and people who want to run your life,
that is just the way it is.

On a one-to-one level,
would-be politicians will use shame, to try
to infuence your choices.

Think of it this way, if busybodies {or other pushy people} don't
have some influence on you, they are powerless.

Don't believe me?, get to know some city politicians,
be sure to bring a barf bag.

On a state and national level, some politicians grow up
and understand that no one wants their BS, some don't.

Note that some tolerance is needed from the public,
as politicians need to talk about 'something',
on talk shows, at rallies, etc.

Progressives-Liberals who exibit this behavior,
are more noticable than those who don't.
Journalism is also attractive to busybodies,
so media attention go to others of the same.

Edit,spelling
2nd edit, adding the following...
If you think the US is bad, you know nothing about the
rest of the world.
In the 'Rest of World', politics, gov't, organized crime,
impinge of personal life in a way that would
be shocking to people in the US.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. With the possible exception of smoking in indoor public places

i.e. restaurants and bars - I don't give a fuck what other people do. (But I'm not going to buy into the bs line about THAT being a 'personal choice'. Personal choice is when other people don't have to breathe it against their will. Don't bother debating me on that, either- all I will say is, if you don't like it, don't come to California.)

Really, I don't. I AM libertarian on personal choices. Watch porn, smoke dope, drink like a fish, eat triple bacon cheeseburgers until your arteries glaze over, cover yourself in lard and have same sex orgies-- whatever, in the privacy of your own home, it's your business... so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult and you don't make your problem someone else's by, say, driving under the influence.

Clearly, we have too many control freaks on this planet, and lots of people aren't clear on the difference between personally not liking something and feeling some need to stamp it out. For example, I think SUVs and monsterously oversized trucks clearly not intended for hauling are obnoxious - and environmentally wasteful - but I don't think they should be 'banned'.

At the same time, however, I'm not going to cry a whole ton of sympathy tears when Mr. Ford F5Million Small Penis Overcompensation Land Destroyer starts bitching at the pump.

And don't feel too bad; when I was in college, I ate Taco Bell alot, too- mostly because they were open later than all the other places and they were great drunk food. And now I'm one of these organic tofu eating granola assholes, all the way.

[Zero Division]

76. Better to encourage improvement than condemn imperfection

But, of course, we may also disagree on what "improvement" and "perfection" mean in terms of the impacts of our individual choices on the world around us.

When it comes to daily living in this society one should be very careful about condemning others or calling out hypocrisies. I suspect we could spend a lifetime detailing the negative impacts of one's lifestyle choices, even if that person refrains from many of the common evils of everyday society.

However, this does not mean that we shouldn't attempt to find common ground on ideal lifestyle choices and encourage improvement. There's certainly a middle ground between condemning others for being imperfect with regard to their lifestyle choices and an "anything goes" attitude.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

78. Nominated! Excellent post SmileyBoy and Thank You! eom

[Demit]

83. I read thru this entire thread & still have the same question in my head..

Why do you let people define you? Why do you let them tell you what kind of true anything you are? Instead of telling them that you don't accept their definition of "true" as being the final definitive word?

I once had a friend tell me I was not a true baseball fan because I got bored finally with listening to a tied game on the radio that was now in something like the sixteenth inning. (We had been at the game but left during the second rain delay, then repaired to our favorite bar.) I admired this friend very much so I let what she said bother me for a long time. Years later I came to the conclusion, I finally realized, that I WAS a baseball fan. Just not the kind that she was. I wasted a lot of time being so insecure that I let her pronouncement be the possible truth. Years later I realized that she was the insecure one, who needed to boost herself up by disparaging me.

LOL! I'd have to look her up now to tell her that. We went our separate ways. But you can just tell these people now, who accuse you of not being a true liberal, "Who are you to say?"

[xultar]

85. I agree, GREAT POST!!!

[Neil Lisst]

86. Liberal means different things to different people.

I personally believe being liberal means being openminded, allowing for other viewpoints, not being judgmental, and not presuming one has all the answers.

This is distinguished from those who think being liberal means being doctrinaire. For this group, there is the right side of every issue (theirs) and the wrong side (every other view). In our party, this means hot button issues such as where you shop, what you buy, what you eat, who you read, and what you think.

I prefer freedom, and the intelligent discourse that follows from it.

Fascists on the left are still fascists.

[OKNancy]

87. They only care about the bleeding crowd

They care about strangers and evil and social injustice, but not the real person.

----------------------------------------------
How can people be so heartless?
How can people be so cruel?
Easy to be hard
Easy to be cold
How can people have no feelings?
You know I’m hung up on you
Easy to be proud
Easy to say no
Especially people
Who care about strangers
Who care about evil
And social injustice
Do you only care about the bleeding crowd?
How about a needing friend?
I need a friend
How can people be so heartless
How can they ignore their friends?
Easy to give in
Easy to help out
Especially people
Who care about strangers
Who say they care about social injustice
Oooaaooh
Do you only care about the bleeding crowd?
Oh-ohhh
How about a needing friend?
Ohhh, I need a friend
How can people have no feelings?
Oh, how can they ignore their friends?
Easy to be hard
Easy to help out
Easy to be proud
Easy to say no

--------------------------- OR -----------

Or it could be that in any large group you will get irritating people.
Liberals can be thoughtless too.

[Neil Lisst]

89. good call, OKNancy!! Three Dog Night!!

I always loved the message of that song, that you have to show love to those around you, and not get lost in your causes and forget that loving those around you is critical.

[OKNancy]

90. I liked your post too

I think we are on the same page.

[xultar]

113. OK Nancy the voice of beautiful logic in a chaotic world!

:hugs:

[bridgit]

88. imo the greater fallacy of liberal/progressive thought is to be found...

in post#4; zen-like in it's desire to be poetic while attempting to sanction behavior on a personal level while stepping round what is clearly unacceptable = "george bush is free to do whatever he wants to do" while dropping yoda-like bread crumbs onto the path of a dark forest regarding a clue that there are limits to personal freedom implied upon all of us; in the time it takes to decipher it clock runs out game over = right wing wins.

[Helga Scow Stern]

91. I personally have had it with holier-than-thou recyclers!

You are hurting the planet if you buy your healthfood in a plastic container instead of bringing your own; you have too much trash; how dare you use a store bag instead of bringing your own....

While this may all be true, somehow it greatly misses the point to whine about it to individuals.

[William Bloode]

95. I say fuck'em!

I like to drink cheap whiskey, smoke myself stupid with marijuana, ride around in my truck, and kill and eat fuzzy little animals. I mght enjoy beating my kids, and shopping at Walmart.

But ya know what? It's my buisness, i do what i feel is best, and fuck the opinion of the rest.

[StClone]

96. This is on the greatest page?

A college kid bitching cause other people bug him.

[QC]

144. I gave it another nomination just for you!

:silly:

[StClone]

163. I guess

Weinerism has fans.

[smbolisnch]

145. lol

:shrug:

Lots of thing on the greatest page don't belng there it seems.

[thinkingwoman]

97. Congrats Smiley!

You've learned the dirty little secret about American society:

the far right wants to tell everyone what to do "for God" and the far left wants to tell everyone what to do "for the greater good."

Each side thinks their motivation is the most holy. Both are control freaks.

There are a LOT of us progressives who don't subscribe to the idea that we have the right to tell others how to live. Many of us think that leading by example is the best approach and that, in the end, each is responsible for finding their own way.

Try not to let the control freaks get to you. Resistance is NOT futile. You don't HAVE to be assimilated.

P.S. Ramen with egg is cheaper and healthier than fast food. If you want other tips on how to live on no money whatsoever, check out the frugal group and give me a shout out. My hubby and I fed ourselves and 2 kids on 20,000 a year with NO gov't assistance of any kind for several years (and no garden). I can give you tips, but I refuse to insist that you follow them. ;-)

edited to correct typo

[Berzerkley]

101. Control freaks

I was at a party not too long ago where it seemed everyone had liberal beliefs and I mentioned that I work for a paper company and one of the people I was talking to actually got upset upon hearing that... OMFG!!!!! Don’t tell me you never use paper!?!?! LOL

Like thinking woman said, there are control freaks on both sides of the political spectrum. Many times these people are just plain hypocrites and are huge proponents of conformity. Best you can do is to lead by example.

I personally have a huge distaste for SUVs (especially the monster-sized ones like the H2). I think they are ugly, bad for the environment, wasteful, and pose a great treat to those on the road who drive smaller and lighter cars. But I don’t think they should be banned (taxed like crazy... maybe) and I certainly don’t support radical groups that vandalize SUVs and the dealerships that sell them.

[JVS]

142. There is a frugal group on DU?

COOL!

[sproutster]

98. :) I see what you mean.

I like that the information is available. I like that I have a choice in what I spend my money on.

Choice, that is what it should be about, informed choice.

Ps. I love taco bell and red meat. ;)

[the other one]

99. Too poor to do the right thing? You may be a Dem. but maybe not liberal.

You don't find it wrong to save money because the stores you shop in profit from sweatshop labor?

Make sure that you are conscious of the ramifications of your decisions. Just because you live in a remote area doesn't mean you don't co-exist with the rest of the world. Being far away from injustice doesn't mean you are not helping to commit it. The Liberal of today understands that the choices one makes affects an inter-dependent world.

Democrats, on the other hand, come from all walks of life and across the political spectrum. The only thing dems really share in common is not being a republican. (That is how they always win - divide and conquer)

Your rant did not merit nomination to the greatest thread.

[elehhhhna]

100. Target sells the exact same crap as Walmart, plus they don't

require their Pharmacists to fill birth control 'scrips. Kroger charges 25 to 50% more per ITEM than Walmart, and you check yourself out (outsourced their employees jobs to their customers). There's no Costco near here. The next groc. chain in this area is owned by a bigtime REEP.

My family and our finances are important -- so I'll buy groceries at Walmart until there's a better option available. Flame away.

102. well everything is connected

though we need to tune things out in order to function. Righteous people have changed things for the better and also for the worse, and even though I can't make a big intellectual thesis on it right now, I would say the good righteous things remain, while the bad ones eventually die out.

Brothers were killing brothers over slavery not too long ago. Couldn't really tune out of that one.

[grace0418]

103. Who else is going to tell us the truth if we don't tell each other?

I don't think there is anything wrong with liberals educating each other, because we're sure as hell aren't going to hear about it from big business, or the government or the news. Of course, I don't think people should be wagging their fingers and you (or anyone else) and saying "You shouldn't do this or shop there or whatnot.

However, I don't mind being educated about choices I make, then being allowed to make my own decisions about them. For instance, a couple of years ago I mentioned to someone how much I love Oberweiss milk (a small local dairy). Their skim milk is the only skim milk I've ever really liked. Then my friend told me that Jim Oberweiss is a super-right wing Republican who was trying to run for Congress (in the slot Alan Keyes eventually took) on a really racist, right-wing platform. She didn't scold me or chide me, she just told me that. I then decided he was getting no more of my money, and I'm glad my friend told me about it. I sure miss that delicious milk though.

I think part of it too is intent. It's just not feasible or practical for most people to live completely off the grid, growing their own organic food and driving a solar car. But we can all do better and it's what we should strive to do. Otherwise it's like a dieter who says, "Oh, shit, I just ate that cookie. Well, fuck it then, I'll just give up and forget about the diet."

What I'm saying is take the comments you receive with a grain of salt. Most people have good intentions, it may just not come out right (some truly are just self-righteous assholes but that'll happen anywhere). If anything, maybe it will cause you to think of ways to make changes you CAN make. For instance, you may not be able to afford organic food direct from the grower, or you may just really like fast food. But you can go to a local mom and pop fast food joint instead of a huge corporate monster. It's better for your local community anyway, and a lot of times you can make friends with the people and they treat you nice (including giving you some free goodies sometimes).

[LWolf]

105. The question is

When did DU become a network of liberal-bashers?

I see it every single day now. I don't spend much time online these days, but when I check in, I'm guaranteed to find a thread bashing liberals.

I guess these days Democrats are supposed to march in lock-step with liberal bashing/blaming?

Sorry. I'm a proud liberal, and I'm glad that liberals try to match deeds to their words, and try to live up to their ideals.

[thinkingwoman]

107. trying to live up to your ideals

is great, and noble, and good. I support you fully on that. I do the same. Sometimes I succeed. Sometimes I fail. :shrug:

But that is not what the OP is talking about. Trying to live up to your ideals is far different from trying to make others live up to your ideals.

[LWolf]

111. Really?

Is it trying to make others live up to MY ideals, or expecting them to live up to their own; to walk their talk, so to speak? That those who talk about conspicuous consumption shouldn't consume conspicuously, etc.?

It's kind of like expecting your Dem reps to oppose the Bush agenda, rather than compromise with it. To walk their talk.

[thinkingwoman]

115. Yes, there is a difference

I'll restate it once again.

There is NOTHING wrong with walking YOUR talk, or expecting others to walk THEIR talk.

There IS something wrong with expecting OTHERS to walk YOUR talk.

That's not a subtle difference. That's a world of difference.

[LWolf]

139. That is a difference.

Is that really what is happening, though?

Are there really a bunch of "liberals" busy telling everyone else what to do, or is this just another step on the DU march to rid itself of the liberals that helped build the site to begin with, and "remake" itself into a more centrist, mainstream political group?

The "underground" that began as a liberal safe-haven has grown and evolved into the mainstream mindset that, in my opinion, helped to lose elections since 2000.

Are those currently campaigning to rid DU, and the Democratic Party, of "liberals" long-time DUers? How many of the originals recognize the changes in ideology occurring, and notice the number of progressives "missing" in action these days?

Growing pains are inevitable. Turning on your own is not, and is self-destructive to the party, and shouldn't be happening here, again in my opinion.

[thinkingwoman]

170. My personal experience

is that I have felt belittled and berated whenever I fail to march in lockstep on certain issues, especially whenever I value freedom of individual choice over "good of the group". That is why I relate to the OP.

No, I do not have any personal desire to "rid" this site of anyone. No, I do not think there is a "march" to do so.

I don't know what your definition of long-time DUers is, but I have been a member for at least 3 years, and a lurker longer than that.

I'm not turning on anyone. To the contrary, there have been many many times when I have felt "turned on."

edited to remember extra "h."

[LWolf]

178. You are a thinkingwoman.

Perhaps the reality is that there are many here who have been willing to turn on others from the beginning. Perhaps it is not any one group, "liberals" in the case of this thread, but misguided or just plain incivil individuals who should be taken to task, rather than vilifying a group as a whole. Perhaps it is really the labels that need to be left behind.

Personally, I have some pretty strong opinions about where to place blame within the party for the mess we find ourselves in at this point in time. It wouldn't do me any good to come out with guns blazing, though. The perpetrators wouldn't "get it," and all I would have done is get people's hackles up and start another inter-party conflict, when our focus should be elsewhere.

[thinkingwoman]

185. I agree

that our focus should be elsewhere. And like you I have some pretty strong opinions I'll keep to myself for similar reasons.

I imagine we might find we agree on an awful lot. :hi:

[sufrommich]

120. I think this thread is the exact opposite of liberal bashing.

Democrats should not be expected to march lock step.What you are calling "liberal bashing" is people debating what a liberal is.Obviously there is a huge spectrum of people who consider themselves liberal and it isn't just the"purists"who get to decide who fits that label.One poster stated outright what he decided the difference between a liberal and a democrat is.Who's making these decisions?If I call myself a liberal democrat but I disagree with you,am I lying?

[LWolf]

143. I don't know.

Whether or not you are lying, that is. I don't know you. It depends on why you call yourself a liberal democrat. If you are trying to help redefine "liberal" to mean "moderate" the way GWB calls war "peace" etc., then that would be a lie.

If you fall somewhere in the large continuum of progressive ideas, more liberal on some than others, then you are like all the rest of the "liberals," and are not lying. There is nothing "lockstep" about it.

And you should not be bashed for debating what liberal is. I see this thread, and your post, attacking "purists." This is a two-way street; if it is not ok for purists to question a moderate's liberal "credentials," then it's not ok for a moderate, or a "somewhat liberal" to question the purists' credentials as democrats. In my opinion, of course.

In the bigger picture, I see it as the self-destructive march down the path of loss the party has been on for awhile now. I think the party will be a poorer place for the loss of the "purists," and I believe that this is less a debate and more an effort to help them on their way out the door.

[sufrommich]

157. I don't think being a moderate

really needs to be vilified as some sort of orwellian "war is peace"stance.I consider myself a moderate liberal democrat.I have never voted for a republican in my life.I am pro choice,I want the religious right to mind their own business,I want fair labor practices and strong unions,I want a universal health program,I think 2 adults should be able to legally marry,and I don't want to engage in war for stupid reasons.I'm not interested in forcibly marching anyone out of the party.That being said the Republicans have been pointing to the most over the top leftist in this party and painting us all the same color,and it has worked in spades for them.I cringe at some of the things I see on this board,and I'm a Democrat!I saw a post that started out "Americans are pigs",some in this very thread have hinted that moderation is fascist.I'm not trying to kick anyone out the door,but I believe my views are probably more in line with the average democrat and that we need to start speaking up.That doesn't mean I'm insisting that anyone else be silenced.

[LWolf]

177. I agree with this:

moderates are not "orwellian." At least, not until they co-opt "liberal." I think "moderate liberal" is an oxymoron.

I also know that very few of us can be classified as "purist" moderates or liberals; we all fall somewhere on a continuum, and our place probably shifts with each issue. I think even the definition of "moderate" shifts depending on your placement on that continuum. Those of us farther to the left probably see the dead center, and maybe a little left of center, as "moderate." Moderate is anything a little further right than ourselves without leaning right of center. Those on the right probably see anyone not quite as far to the right as they are as "moderate." And that changes for each individual. Perhaps we should leave off trying to label people as "liberal" or "moderate" and squaring off to establish territory and influence for whatever subgroup you choose to label yourself as. Perhaps we should, instead, be finding common ground to work on. I appreciate that you don't insist on silencing others. That isn't true for some, and it never has been in the Party as a whole, or here at DU. The "get in line or get out" contingency here at DU has been growing lately. Or they've just gotten louder, or both. I see ranting about "liberals" as part of that movement. I don't appreciate it. Neither would I sit by silently if threads suddenly appeared calling out "moderates."

[sufrommich]

186. Thanks for your reply lwolf,

for all of our differences of opinion(and labels)I'm sure we would be in the same foxhole.Nice to meet you.

[OnionPatch]

106. I'm with ya

Even though I'm one of those people who buys meat from farmers, only shops at certain stores, doesn't smoke or eat fast food.... There were times in my life where I was just where you are and couldn't afford the organic choice and wasn't ready to throw away my smokes and needed an item I could only obtain at the local big box.

I think the liberal way to advance these issues is to lead by example and work on molding policy. (Safe food standards/business regulation) And you're totally right that if we want to be the leading political influence in this country, we are going to have to keep our tent wide open and extremely tolerant of diverse viewpoints. Nit-picking at those who are basically on our side is counter-productive. To much preachy-ness and we're starting to seem like them.

[thinkingwoman]

109. safe food standards, and

truth in labelling is soooooooooo important for so many reasons.

This is one area we liberals/progressives can excel at and I applaud all who are working on this!

[bridgit]

123. you do have that one just right, i have a friend that will lapse...

if he eats, or drinks, anything with a smidgen of peanut extract in it x( safe food standards & labeling are vital for folks, even for they who are not aware of just how important the issue is

[ultraist]

116. selfish, gluttony vs. social and environmental responsibility

Americans are pigs, in general. We use far more resources than we need. We are trashing the planet while others are dying because they lack clean water. Allowing 20,000 children die PER DAY, from starvation while we live in luxury is the epitomy of selfishness.

Believe it not, your lifestyle choices DO affect others.

Proponents of socially and environmentally responsible behaviors have a right to speak out about sustainability. Sustainability IS a progressive issue!

[Lorien]

181. Amen Ultraist

liberalism has always been about the good of the many and the health of all as opposed to the self centered"I got mine" GOP view. Acknowledging that our choices have consequences is part of being an adult. Self deluding by imagining that the only issue is "personal freedom" which includes doing whatever you damn well feel like and attacking anyone who attempts to point out that those actions might indeed harm others as "___ fascists"shows a distinct lack of maturity, and is far from being "progressive" behavior.

[Robeson]

187. "Sustainability IS a progressive issue!"...

...As a fellow Progressive, I know that's what I was always taught.

[neebob]

118. What's wrong with Taco Bell

besides the food being disgusting?

I wouldn't fault you for eating there or for shopping at Target or listening to corporate radio, but you know what? You don't have to do any of those things. People with less money than you make better choices, because they want to. It's not that hard if you have the desire.

I eat at Subway on occasion. I listen to at least one Clear Channel station and do most of my shopping at a Kroger-owned grocery store. I could easily tell myself my radio and grocery choices are due to a lack of alternatives, living in a small town, but then I'd have to ask how all the people I know who live in the same town and make less money than do manage to do all their shopping at the organic food store. I could do it, too, if I cut Philip Morris loose.

It comes down to commitment. It's simply not true that you have no other choices.

As for others questioning your lifestyle choices, you know, it's just a message board. You don't have to let it affect your self-esteem any more than you have to eat at Taco Bell.

[dogfacedboy]

119. I, myself, notice that there are quite a few scolds here. However,

this IS a public soapbox, and everyone gets their say. Don't let them under your skin. Believe what you believe, and live the way you wish. If you really look at it, there aren't that many "rules" to life. Be You. It's all about the freedom.

[mondo joe]

121. It's not liberals vs conservatives but people WITH boundaries vs those

without. At least some of the time.

There is NOTHING more disheartening to me than to find liberals who are fascistic as the cons. I hate to find those that I thought were allies are just a different flavor of fascist.

That said, some of the scolding you see might be better considered public service announcements. After all - sometimes the way we learn about these things is through the message boards. Probably for every 10 unnecessary scolds there are 5 informative posts that I'm glad to know about.

[ret5hd]

122. When did being a poor college student become an excuse...

for being angry because not everyone likes you?

hell, back in the day, if we found out somebody had basic differences with us, we just said "piss off" and went on about our business (usually smokin' dope) and didn't worry that much about it. we usually reserved our hurt feelings for boyfriend/girlfriend troubles.

[ultraist]

125. A Day in the Life of Joe Republican, by Michael Moore

A Day in the Life of Joe Republican

Joe gets up at 6am and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.

With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and they work as advertised. All but $10 of his medications is paid by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his workday. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union member fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get workers compensation check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of a temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FDIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the country would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized student loan, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the taxpayer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking cheese eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe
wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that the liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe
enjoys throughout his day and takes for granted today.

Joe agrees: We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have.

[sufrommich]

130. I think almost everyone on this board

will agree that these are the cornerstones of the Democratic party.Brought about by old fashioned Democratic representatives elected by a strong working/middle class base.Who put them there with these ideals in mind.Where the left goes wrong is assuming that these same people will tolerate a constant barrage of negativism concerning cultural traits that may not appeal to progressives.Rant all you want about whatever(legal) social ills bother you personally,but if you try to legislate them,we will be forever on the sidelines.

136. excellent! n/t

[scarlet_owl]

126. Good post. I agree 100%.

I had Arby's for dinner last night and I don't buy organic anything, but I'm just as liberal as anyone else. I agree, lets let folks live how they want/have to.

[Iktomiwicasa]

127. The first reply

To my very first post here on DU was to call me a "freeper" for pointing out the absolutely dismal record the democrats(as well as the repubs...there is really no difference in that regard) have with native american issues. I'm "liberal"...meaning I believe in liberty (freedom). I own guns, hunt, eat meat(including dogs from time to time), respect the gender roles of my culture. So called "liberals" have bitched at me about how "unprogressive" we are, and if if we could only change this or that....... I tell them when they have a culture that is a thousand generations old, tried, true, and proven...then they can gripe to me about what we need to change.

[WhollyHeretic]

128. So you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend there are no

problems in the world and that actions have no consequences? That's fine but people are going to discuss these things on a discussion board.

[Deja Q]

129. How can a food service be cheaper than the raw ingredients?

A diet of taco hell is going to cost rather more than buying the ingredients from scratch.

That aside, I agree with you.

[mondo joe]

133. Cheap processed food makes a healthy diet a challenge for the poorest

people.

A friend of mine is a nutritionist at a low-income health clinic and she has a VERY hard job, because you have to be pretty strategic about making it cheaper to eat healthy.

A box of crappy mac & cheese is usually cheaper than good fresh vegetables.

My friend just keeps working to educate her patients about options, but it's not easy.

[bloom]

154. "Factory meat" could cost $1.25 less per pound...

at least according to Robert Kennedy Jr.

For the same amount of money - one could choose between factory meat (from fast food places) or something better that one has to cook for the same cost - but without costs to people/the world/etc.

In the show Farm, Inc. - it was showing how factory farms have like 100,000 pigs or hogs or whatever - and that the sewage from the hogs amounted to a city of like 1 million people - that the farms should be considered factories and be required to have their own sewage treatment plants to deal with it all. They don't - the sewage from dozens of these places can end up going straight into creeks and rivers with a big storm.

And it's because these places are considered "farms" (while putting more balanced farms out of business) - that the surrounding area pays for what the factory farmers don't pay - in various costs to the enviroment - their housing values,etc. That if the factory farmers DID have to pay for their own sewage treatment facility - it would make up the difference that they can charge less than their competition. IOW - they wouldn't be able to charge less at all.

People get used to paying for the cheapest things they can - but it figures that fast food places and such are going to get their meat from the cheapest places available - and that the price of "cheapness" could be a destroyed planet and agricultural system.

From:
Crimes Against Nature
by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

"I prosecute polluters on behalf of the Natural Resources Defense Council, Riverkeeper and Waterkeeper Alliance. As George W. Bush began his presidency, I was involved in litigation against the factory-pork industry, which is a large source of air and water pollution in America. Corporate pork factories cannot produce more efficiently than traditional family farmers without violating several federal environmental statutes. Industrial farms illegally dump millions of tons of untreated fecal and toxic waste onto land and into the air and water. Factory farms have contaminated hundreds of miles of waterways, put tens of thousands of family farmers and fishermen out of work, killed billions of fish, sickened consumers and subjected millions of farm animals to unspeakable cruelty.

On behalf of several farm groups and fishermen, we sued Smithfield Foods and won a decision that suggested that almost all of American factory farms were violating the Clean Water Act. The Clinton EPA had also brought its own parallel suits addressing chronic air and water violations by hog factories. But almost immediately after taking office, the Bush administration ordered the EPA to halt its Clean Air Act investigations of animal factories and weaken the water rules to allow them to continue polluting indefinitely."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1120-01.htm

listen:

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-73-1239-7102/politics_economy/pig_industry/

[pitohui]

132. it was ever thus, read yr orwell

he had a great rant abt how socialism was limiting itself by catering to the vegetarian sandal-wearers -- and this in the 1930s!

down and out in paris & london might be the source, or road to wigan pier, not sure at the moment

but we've had the lifestyle nazis on our backs for a long time

[Gormy Cuss]

134. The problem with people like you is

nothing. You are here reading diverse opinions, debating with people who see things differently. There are some posters here who are heavily vested in one topic and come off as scolds because they repeat the same arguments every time and never concede that another view has merit. I read and consider their positions. Then I ignore them.

I hope the rant made you feel better.

[WilliamPitt]

137. You make a good point, but

you also have to bear in mind that every single dollar you spend, and everything you choose to spend it on, *is* political. Your money supports companies, who in turn may well support the kinds of politicians and policies that you would spend your life trying to defeat. There is no avoiding it, and getting pissed when you get called on it does not change that.

Read 'Fast Food Nation' when you get some free time. It isn't just about the food, but is about what happens when millions of people spend billions of dollars buying products made by companies who couldn't care less about you, the environment, social justice, workers rights, etc. It'll make you better understand what people have been tossing at you.

It *is* hard to be a "good liberal" with no money. Do the best you can, don't feel bad about it, but be mindful that the people tapping you with this stuff do have a legitimate point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

148. There's no such thing as a "good liberal" and a "bad liberal"

We make choices and those choices have consequences.

One does not need money to be conscious. Consciousness is free.

[WilliamPitt]

151. "Consciousness is free"

Sure it is.

High-priced organic food isn't.

[mondo joe]

159. Nor are kid clothes or toys or any of the other things parents want

their kids to have, even if they have to shop at WalMart or Target to get them.

Low income individuals and families have fewer choices that don't support some crappy corporation. :-(

[Missy Vixen]

162. Okay, now I have to speak up

>There is no avoiding it, and getting pissed when you get called on it does not change that.<

Will, I strongly disagree.

I have been slammed on these boards previously for sticking up for the soulless corporate monolith Starbucks, even though Starbucks offers even part-time employees health insurance and educational benefits. Anyone who had the temerity to have what was deemed a "traditional" wedding on this site was being pilloried less than two weeks ago in the Lounge for what others here consider A Useless Waste Of Money. A few days before that, the target was anyone who wears diamonds.

The good is sacrificed for the perfect by many, and frankly, I get sick of reading the lecturing and hectoring as well.

My husband and I are in the midst of a bruising campaign; he's running for mayor of our hometown. When I read the endless lectures here, all I think about now is how many of these people should perhaps put their money and time where their mouths are and RUN FOR OFFICE.

Julie

[pitohui]

167. bravo, julie

i agree & i salute your family for your courage

[progressivebydesign]

146. As a community we try to make choices that HELP the world..

I can see your knee jerk reaction, probably because of a smoking thread, to what you've read. The point of all of those examples is that liberals tend to be more concerned about the environment, health, corporatism, and working conditions for others.

You're dismissing that by wrapping into a long post that accuses people here of being judgemental. There are just certain issues that resonate with liberals, in general, and part of being a group.. even amongst friends.. is challenging each other, and sharing our beliefs. You're feeling insulted because you say you can only afford to eat in cheap places, etc., and that paragraph actually says volumes about your real complaint. It's not truly that you find liberals to be narrow minded, it's that you feel you have to defend your life choices. You don't. People here debate those things because they are important to them, you don't have to participate in those discussion if they upset you. If you wer eeating corporate processed food because you believed it was the right thing to do, or was good for you and America, that would be a valid argument. But it sounds like you just are economically forced to eat that way, so insinuating that we are narrow minded because of our views, is really disingenuous.

I don't shop in certain places because of their business practices, I don't eat fast food and beef because of health issues
I dont' smoke because I value my health, and I detest second hand smoke because of the health danger. That does not make me narrow minded, and I am happy to share my opinions on that subject when it comes up here. We exchange opinions and ideas here... and I would hope that no one would take it all so seriously. It's just discussion.

[charlyvi]

147. The Difference between Libs and Conservatives is....

We may bitch to high heaven about someone's behaviour--that's our right. But we don't try to codify it into the law of the land. Unless said behaviour is physically harmful to someone else.

[bloom]

149. I think this is about

wishing people were more aware of some problems and assuming that if thinking people were aware - they would want to do something.

I watched the show Farm, Inc. this week. I realize that not everyone will see this show - not everyone has FSTV, or whatever. But I think anyone who did see the show would have to question whether they wanted to continue to eat meat from factory farms.

It's not like I will necessarily avoid eating meat ever in my life - but it's something to think about - and if you don't know about some about the issues - it makes sense to me that "thinking" people would want to find out - instead of essentially financing corporate criminals.

I live near a college with plenty of liberals - and I know from personal experience that it is possible to live as a liberal college student and consider what you eat and the consequences of what you do.

Some people don't want to do that - But I don't see how some people wanting to educate others can be considered a bad thing.

My advise - if you don't want to know - don't read those threads.

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. Buy your food from a grocery store

It's more economical and healthier too. :)

[newspeak]

153. there is nothing wrong with debating and trading information

however, our lifestyles are our choices. People do certain things or believe certain things and that is there choice. I choose my lifestyle and change it when I see fit. I don't want others to think lock step with me or choose my lifestyle. Debating and passing information helps question our own beliefs. It is a good thing--but ultimately, the decision is mine.

[mondo joe]

156. All true. But no one is "pure" and I do think people tend to get on

others' cases while justifying their own "failings".

My sister in law and her partner were a great case in point. They'd ride everyone for everything - where you shopped, how much you'd eat, what you'd eat, and on and on and on.

But if you knew them well enough to go to their home you'd know they had an ENORMOUS house in the city that cost a fortune, for just the two of them. And I don't have a problem with their house, but it didn't escape my notice that they were taking up a huge resource for very few people.

If it were food or cars or almost anything else they'd have been all over it as being wasteful or indulgent - but this was their exception. And conveniently enough, it was theirs.

I have failings and my own hypocrisy too - we all do.

[newspeak]

160. some of our choices do have consequences

if people wish to pay more money on fuel to drive gas guzzlers, that's their right. However, to steal resources from others or murder others so that you can drive a gas guzzler is not right. There are consequences to our choices, that we all pay.

[mondo joe]

161. Of course there are. But it's easy to spot the consequences caused

by others. I'm just suggesting we might want to promote a more sensitive approach, especially with those whose hearts are in the right place.

[newspeak]

169. I hope you're not assuming I am attacking?

through education and consciouness we create our own decisions. As an individual, it is our choice. However, obtaining information and filtering through it through our own conscience, each individual decides how they will deal with a belief or a problem. Ultimately, it is our own individual decision. I chose not to shop at Wal-mart, it is my decision and I do not censor those who do. I may relay information about Wal-mart, but I am not going to censor someone from buying at Wal-Mart. It is their choice. Eating at fast food restaurants may be unhealthy, might relay facts, but it is not up to me to censor someone eating at a fast food restaurant. Am I my brother or sisters keeper? only to a certain extent. And maybe that's what makes us liberal. If you made choices that might have not been prudent, I am not willing to point at you and say "serves you right, you made that decision and now suffer." What I will do is say what do you need or how may I help? Because we all make mistakes-not one of us can claim to walk on water.

[Ksec]

165. Right between stealing Christmas and supporting the terrorists

Get a clue.

:)

[Roxy66]

172. Thank you ...I completely agree

[EmmaP]

173. Why not just discuss it?

If someone chastises you for doing something, why don’t you just defend yourself? After all, this is a discussion board. Have a discussion. If you believe there is nothing wrong with eating meat/eating fast food/shopping wherever, then why don’t you simply discuss with these people your reasons for doing so?

If people ask my why I don’t eat meat or why I don’t have/want children, I will answer their questions honestly. However, my answers usually put them on the defensive and they feel as though I’m judging them…when, in fact, I have said nothing at all about THEM, I have simply answered their inquiries about ME.

[MarsThe Cat]

175. people are entitled to say whatever they want.

just as you are entitled to ignore anyone & anything they say.

since when has liberalism been about complaining how people voice their opinions???

[bloom]

179. When did liberalism = "complaining how people voice their opinions???"

exactly.

[callady]

176. In a consumer-society

we claim to have choices. This is a myth. Most of what we have as choices is the equivalent of 37 varieties of the same sugared cereal. We also like to think there are no consequences for the next generation or people who live elsewhere for "our lifestyle choices". In fact we are engineered as artifact people to think precisely that.

As to what label one uses to place upon themselves or another that too is largely a contrivance. One might claim to be for equal rights and economic justice but if through your daily habits you are impinging on someone elses right to food, for example, then it matters little what your cant is or what you do in the voting booth.

A far more important question at the end of the day is not am I a liberal or a conservative or on the left or the right but; How much of the world did I colonize through my daily habits? Living in the West we are all guilty but to wildly varying degrees and some are making serious efforts to limit their damage. We are also to varying degrees trapped in a world of contradictions and hypocrisies.

If one chooses to eat beef at a fast food restaurant one is contributing to the deforestation of the Amazon. That's a fact and it is a cold evil in which our actions are so removed from the consequences it is hard to see the connection.

When one uses the cell phone one is responsible for the destruction of habitat for the Eastern Lowland Gorilla in the Congo. But how many people are going to see the connection to this nearly extinct creature, coltan mining and their cell phone? How many if they understood this connection would give up this gadget? There are numerous examples.

[Kenroy]

180. There's always been a strong

element of puritanism in modern liberalism. It's one of its least-attractive qualities.

[FM Arouet666]

188. Ohhhhh the "liberal sin"

The phenomena you describe is what I call "liberal sin." We are all guilty, acting against the ideal liberal paradigm. There is no universal archetype, the animal rights groups deplores your carnivorous ways, the environmentalists deplore your gas usage, and don't even mention capitalism. You will be banished to saying 12 'hale Clintons' and 14 'our Kennedys'.

Liberal religiosity is a common affliction, dare not commit a sin.

It is narrow minded B.S., and as you pointed out, the same kind of goose stepping nonsense expected of the freeper. I hear you, I was a poor little Berkeley undergrad, lived at Taco Bell, shopped at Wal-Mart, and generally ignored liberal calls to action.

Did I see the light? Nope, I drive a gas guzzling german sports car, spend way too much money on hedonism, and still enjoy a juicy steak. Sinner? No, I vote democrat, donate to 10 different causes, including this site, donate time to the democratic party, and when the school loans are paid, will donate time to doctors without borders.

A person should not be defined by a single action, we are not saints. Progressives have one thing in common, a belief that the world can be a better place. Not just for the rich and educated, for everyone, regardless of race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, sex, or intelligence.

Leave the sin to the fundie freeper, we are progressives, a large tent with a common cause, accept the differences and celebrate the similarities. I feel your pain, and your appetite. I think I will make a run to the border for a beef encherito and a diet Mountain Dew.

Bon Apetite......:evilgrin: