Re: Bird Flu

[JDPriestly]

Couldn't we prevent the spread of bird flu by simply banning the sale of poultry that is not tested for it? Or how about a quarantine on all poultry until the threat of bird flu is over. It is not transmitted by humans yet. It seems to me it will never by transmitted by humans if humans stop eating birds and poultry. I'm thinking of an international ban.

[madeline_con]

1. I thought it wasn't about eating it, that cooking would kill the virus...

anyway. (?)

[cynatnite]

2. I don't believe it's just limited to poultry...

I think it has spread to a variety of birds.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me :)

[Carolab]

3. I might be wrong but I thought I read it is being transmitted by humans.

Someone correct me if that's not the case.

The problem is that the people who are poultry farmers need to quarantine their birds, and not "live with them" either. Apparently, villagers are being asked in Romania to keep them inside so they won't be affected by migratory birds, but I guess not everyone is complying.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Not human to human.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Yes, human to human cases have been documented.

See my post below for link.

[Maddy McCall]

17. Not indisputably

It is often impossible to determine if human-to-human transmission has occurred since the family members are exposed to the same animal and environmental sources as well as to one another.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Is the first sentence missing from your link?

Here, I'll post it again for you:

Though rare, instances of limited human-to-human transmission of H5N1 and other avian influenza viruses have occurred in association with outbreaks in poultry and should not be a cause for alarm.

[Maddy McCall]

24. Read TheWraith's post and my post below.

That should pretty well clear up this semantical argument.

[beam me up scottie]

27. I did. Human to human transmission has been documented.

This is not that difficult to understand.

[Maddy McCall]

30. No, it hasn't.

Again, read your own source. It qualifies its earlier assertion that h2h has occured by adding that it is not known for a fact whether or not these cases were actually b2h.

Find an article where the virus has mutated to be transmissible beyound first generation, and then I'll listen.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Do you understand that human to human transmission has occurred?

I never claimed it went beyond the first generation.
You are being purposely obtuse.

One more time:

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/avian_faqs/en/#pandemic2

[Maddy McCall]

34. Not this year, it hasn't. Even your own source says it hasn't occurred

yet with this strain:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/10/10/birdflu.warning.ap/

While there have been no known cases of person-to-person transmission, World Health Organization officials and other experts have been warning that the virus could mutate into a form that spreads easily among people. In a worst-case scenario, they say millions of people could die.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Are you unable to read English?

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred

And one more time:

In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred

[Maddy McCall]

38. Another article claiming that it has not become h2h transmissible.

This is from the UK DOH:

A severe form of avian influenza or ‘bird flu’ – called H5N1 – has affected poultry flocks and other birds in several Asian countries since 2003. As of 21 October 2005, 118 people have also caught the infection, as a result of close and direct contact with infected birds. Sixty-one of these have subsequently died. There is no firm evidence that H5N1 has acquired the ability to pass easily from person to person. However, concern remains that the virus might develop this ability, or that it might mix with human flu viruses to create a new virus. It is this ability of avian influenza, to change and to mix, that has given rise to the fear of a new human flu pandemic. This regularly updated feature explains the background to the disease, and assesses the nature of the risk to people living in the UK.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/AboutUs/MinistersAndDepartmentLeaders/ChiefMedicalOfficer/Features/FeaturesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4102997&chk=OcYuEL

[beam me up scottie]

41. " the ability to pass easily from person to person"

I believe adult learning classes are available at community colleges.

[Maddy McCall]

43. So are introductory logic, from which you would benefit.

[beam me up scottie]

45. I'm quoting the CDC and the WHO and you disagree with their information.

You continue to ignore the facts and insist that I am wrong.

And I need a course in logic?

:rofl:

[Maddy McCall]

47. No, you just can't see the forest for the trees.

Show me one case of the current avian influenza presenting itself in a human outside of an area closely tied to bird production.

Show me that, and I'll concede that you were correct.

As of now, the only cases of suspected human-to-human transmission are in regions in which all people infected had close contact with infected birds, and even your WHO and CDC sources concede that there is no way to know whether the transmission was h2h or b2h.

[beam me up scottie]

49. The CDC and WHO both report human to human transmission occurred.

You are arguing with the worlds best scientists.

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

[Maddy McCall]

33. And another source--which quotes WHO

While there have been no known cases of person-to-person transmission, World Health Organization officials and other experts have been warning that the virus could mutate into a form that spreads easily among people. In a worst-case scenario, they say millions of people could die.

Wednesday, October 12, 2005; Posted: 11:04 a.m. EDT

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/10/10/birdflu.warning.ap/

[beam me up scottie]

37. That's from October 12th.

:eyes:

CDC:
In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred

[TheWraith]

20. That sub-strain was eradicated.

The couple of suspected cases of human-to-human transmission were quarantined, and the virus died off.

[beam me up scottie]

21. But human to human transmission occurred.

The claim that they had not occurred was incorrect.

[Maddy McCall]

26. I'm talking about the PRESENT strain.

Geez, some people will argue with a wall.

[beam me up scottie]

28. And I quote "Not human to human."

Maddy McCall (1000+ posts) Sun Oct-23-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Not human to human.

[Maddy McCall]

31. Well, even a moron would assume that this thread was discussing the...

PRESENT strain, and not the one that occurred in 1997. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

40. H5N1 has been transmitted from human to human.

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

[Maddy McCall]

44. And as the earlier article suggests, researchers are not certain...

that the virus passed h2h, because those infected all had close contact with diseased animals. Period.

[beam me up scottie]

46. H5N1 has been transmitted from human to human.

H5N1 has been transmitted from human to human.

This information is available from the CDC and WHO.

What part don't you understand?

[Maddy McCall]

48. Not indisputably. Only cases thus far have been in people with...

close contact with birds, ergo your sources even say that it can't be known with certainty that h2h transmission has occurred.

[beam me up scottie]

50. "human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred"

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

[Maddy McCall]

23. Yes, like I said below, it had not mutated beyond 1st generation.

When it mutates beyond first generation, that's when we will have a human-to-human pandemic.

[mike_c]

4. ya'll need to do some research....

Start here:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/pandemics.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/

http://www.fluwikie.com/

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/en/

[Mike03]

52. Amen n/t

[kestrel91316]

5. In the US an civilized countries, avian influenza is taken VERY seriously

because of the severe economic damage it does to poultry farmers. If they find it in a flock, the entire flock and any birds that have had contact with that flock are DESTROYED. Period. It is highly contagious among birds and causes them to grow poorly (wastes feed dollars) so it has to be kept out. So the mechanism is already in place to control it in birds. We have strains of avian flu OTHER THAN H5N1 in the US and other developed countries. The goal is to keep H5N1 OUT.

But if H5N1 mutates prior to entry, then it's the people who will bring it in. THAT is the weak link. We have quarantine and inspection for imported birds. We have no such thing for "imported" people.

[Maddy McCall]

6. Bird flu has already jumped to humans, but is not yet transmitted...

human to human. In other words, if you handle a bird with bird flu, you will get bird flu. But, as of now, if you are in the presence of someone with bird flu, you won't get bird flu, because it hasn't yet evolved to become human to human transmissible.

When the virus does learn to jump from human to human, that's when we have to become frightened.

[Carolab]

8. Uncooked or raw poultry blamed

Public health officials in Viet Nam repeatedly have warned against the consumption of dishes made with fresh duck blood or with raw or inadequately cooked poultry products, WHO points out. Residents of all countries experiencing outbreaks of H5N1 avian influenza in bird populations should avoid eating raw or undercooked poultry and egg products.

Contact with dead or diseased birds has been blamed for most human cases of bird flu to date. Humans are particularly vulnerable when slaughtering, defeathering and preparing poultry for cooking. WHO recommends that poultry should be cooked until all parts reach an internal temperature of 70 degrees Centigrade. No cases of H5N1 infection have been linked to the consumption of thoroughly cooked poultry and egg products, reports WHO.

http://health.dailynewscentral.com/content/view/326/63

[beam me up scottie]

10. Avian flu has been transmitted from human to human.

What is the significance of limited human-to-human transmission?

Though rare, instances of limited human-to-human transmission of H5N1 and other avian influenza viruses have occurred in association with outbreaks in poultry and should not be a cause for alarm. In no instance has the virus spread beyond a first generation of close contacts or caused illness in the general community. Data from these incidents suggest that transmission requires very close contact with an ill person. Such incidents must be thoroughly investigated but – provided the investigation indicates that transmission from person to person is very limited – such incidents will not change the WHO overall assessment of the pandemic risk. There have been a number of instances of avian influenza infection occurring among close family members. It is often impossible to determine if human-to-human transmission has occurred since the family members are exposed to the same animal and environmental sources as well as to one another.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/avian_faqs/en/index.html#isthere

[Carolab]

12. I thought so. There are cases reported in Asia.

But I can't tell if they were confirmed or not?

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/04170504/H5N1_H2H_Proof.html

[beam me up scottie]

14. I wouldn't get my info from that site.

The CDC and WHO websites mike c listed above are both excellent sources.

You can also go to FluWiki: http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Main.HomePage

BBC is on top of things too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2005/bird_flu/default.stm

[mike_c]

55. just a warning....

The recombinomics site is VERY suspect. It's run by Dr. Henry Niman who has been making lots of really shaky pronouncements about avian flu for the last couple of years, many of which he's disseminated via the apocalyptic fundamentalist web and radio network because respected scientific journals won't touch them.

[Maddy McCall]

16. Read the last sentence.

There have been a number of instances of avian influenza infection occurring among close family members. It is often impossible to determine if human-to-human transmission has occurred since the family members are exposed to the same animal and environmental sources as well as to one another.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Why did you skip the first one?

Though rare, instances of limited human-to-human transmission of H5N1 and other avian influenza viruses have occurred in association with outbreaks in poultry and should not be a cause for alarm.

[Maddy McCall]

22. But it hasn't mutated beyond 1st generation.

There's an exception to every rule. Avian influenza has not yet mutated to pandemic human-to-human transmission. And of the human cases reported, no one knows whether or not the victims were infected through close contact with flu-striken birds or through each other.

When it starts spreading person-to-person in industrialized nations that don't live in close contact with birds, that's when we will know, without a doubt. that the virus has evolved to be human-to-human transmissible.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Human to human transmission has been documented.

The claim was that human to human transmission had not occurred.

Misinformation can and will kill people if and when a pandemic occurs.

[Maddy McCall]

29. *sigh* No, it's not known yet if transmission was bird to human or h2h.

Your own source says that.

[beam me up scottie]

35. The CDC disagrees with you.

But you knew that.

What is the risk to humans from bird flu?

The risk from bird flu is generally low to most people because the viruses occur mainly among birds and do not usually infect humans. However, during an outbreak of bird flu among poultry (domesticated chicken, ducks, turkeys), there is a possible risk to people who have contact with infected birds or surfaces that have been contaminated with excretions from infected birds. The current outbreak of avian influenza A (H5N1) among poultry in Asia and Europe (see below) is an example of a bird flu outbreak that has caused human infections and deaths. In such situations, people should avoid contact with infected birds or contaminated surfaces, and should be careful when handling and cooking poultry. For more information about avian influenza and food safety issues, visit the World Health Organization website. In rare instances, limited human-to-human spread of H5N1 virus has occurred, and transmission has not been observed to continue beyond one person.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm

[Maddy McCall]

39. The UK DOH disagrees with you.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/AboutUs/MinistersAndDepartmentLeaders/ChiefMedicalOfficer/Features/FeaturesArticle/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4102997&chk=OcYuEL

[beam me up scottie]

42. " the ability to pass easily from person to person"

There is no firm evidence that H5N1 has acquired the ability to pass easily from person to person.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. Exactly. *Often* impossible to determine, not 'always'

With the earlier sentences, this means they think that human-to-human transmission has occured in some cases.

[mike_c]

54. this needs to be put into perspective....

Transmission to humans is currently very inefficient and rather rare, so as long as the virus remains unchanged, transmission AMONG humans will be equally infrequent. Think of it this way-- suppose transmission to humans is so inefficient that only 1 of every 100,000 positive exposures, i.e. breathing live virii, results in infection. In Asia where tens of thousands of people have been exposed to tens of millions of infected poultry, some human infections are a statistical likelihood even though they are a very rare event. Now suppose 100 people are infected following all those exposures. Unless the virus changes, it still has a 1 in 100,000 chance of infecting ANOTHER human, i.e. of achieving lateral transmission among humans, perhaps to a care giver. THAT'S why such "secondary" cases are so infrequent-- there have only been a couple and even they are not unambiguous, IMO-- despite having infected humans, the virus remains very inefficient at human infection. Tertiary transmission, i.e. a third generation of human-to-human transmission, is very unlikely in this scenario, which corresponds to the current situation with avian flu. Indeed, tertiary transmission has so far not occurred (and even secondary transmissions are uncertain). I've made up the numbers, but they're actually pretty close to reality, at least by orders of magnitude.

on edit-- what I'm hoping to make clear here is that avian flu has not "jumped to humans" yet, and the rarity of secondary transmission confirms that. The virus is so far unchanged, and remains only rarely able to infect humans.

[highplainsdem]

9. Check out the 4 pages here for some info,

starting with

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=1173809&page=1

Four pages of Q&A on bird flu, the answers from Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease specialist and the chairman of the Department of Preventive Medicine at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tenn.

This is from the second page there:

Ginny in Missouri asks: Can you get the virus from eating fowl?

Schaffner: Fortunately not. Eating poultry cannot give you bird flu. Influenza is spread by the respiratory route in close contacts.


This flu virus has been found in wild migratory birds as well as poultry.

[Carolab]

13. Apparently you can get it from eating contaminated food.

Or dealing with "diseased" birds or their feces. That's what the post upthread I linked to from WHO says.

I thought the respiratory transmission was the human-to-human contagion route.

[sam sarrha]

15. migrating birds will carry all over the world along their flyways

[Talismom]

51. There's a fantastic spread on this story in the latest National Geographic

and I really recommend it!It appears that it is now being spread world-wide by migrating wild birds as well as domesticated birds.