Need info Re: "Fuck" as freedom of speech.

[recoveringrepublican]

Today us at www.stpeteforpeace.org were holding a cornering in Palm Harbor, Florida. It was on US-19 which is a VERY busy road here in Pinellas County. One of our young members was holding a sign that said "Fuck Bush". The Sheriffs came out and arrested him.

I remember hearing about a case a court ruled that a man was protected by the First Amendment to use the F bomb. Does anyone have more of the story.

The damn sheriffs kept saying "that's for the courts to decide", they were making up fucking laws and then saying "that's for the courts to decide". I'm just very pissed. The young members of SPFP are truly amazing kids. Wise beyond their years and, though they don't WANT to get arrested, they are willing to put themselves through all this trouble in the fight for their freedoms, which is more than I can say I would/can do sadly.

Any info is greatly appreciated.

[RubyDuby in GA]

1. It may be up to the area that you're in

Some areas passed laws regarding obscenity in public. In GA, you can't have bumper stickers that have some words, like fuck, on them.

Not clear on this one. Hope that helps.

[ClintonTyree]

2. I used to live right off US-19 on Drew Street..........

US-19 is C-R-A-Z-Y. Have they finished all of the construction there yet? Sorry I can't provide any info for you. I'm sure the young guy was well within his rights and it WILL be decided in court.
I'd contact the ACLU ASAP. I know, a lot of intitials there but the ACLU would probably jump all over this.

Good luck and keep up the good work. If any legal fund needs to be organized be sure to let us know, OK?

[recoveringrepublican]

21. We have a legal fund started since the last arrest on Aug 6

Please check out www.stpeteforpeace.org for those interested. This group is very active, we even got protest warriors to come out in defense of OUR free speech.

[wtmusic]

3. I have no problem with laws against public obscenity

"Fuck Bush". I hope he/she thinks expressing that enlightening opinion was worth getting arrested. :eyes:

[jobycom]

9. And, see, I'm just the opposite. I believe all profanity laws should be

banned.

Ain't America great? :-)

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

25. Oh really

so DU.com is "not for me"...last time I checked (and I've been here awhile--far longer than you) DU is pretty open to different points of view.

What they're not open to is telling other posters FUCK YOU because they don't agree with you. You might want to take a look at the "Rules" page.

Since you're so free and easy, you must support public nakedness and public sex too. Or maybe not. If not, you're we're not even arguing principles, we're arguing degrees of *exactly* the same thing.

I just don't happen to think displaying the word "fuck" in a public place is appropriate (not to mention it serves no purpose whatsoever). Apparently more people agree with me than you. Too bad. :cry:

[SammyBlue]

29. Just because your idea of obscenity banning is popular, doesn't make it

right.

Drugs are popular, Limbaugh is popular. . .does it make it right?

It takes no backbone to agree.

And, I have no problem with public nudity and I have engaged in public sex before with girlfriends.

And in the context of this topic. . .I find it okay, since this topic started with a "Fuck Bush" shirt.

Quote Cartman from Bigger, Longer and UnCut: "What, it's not hurting anyone. . .what's he big deal? Fuck, fuck, fuckity, fuck fuck!"

[Somawas]

4. There's a case

I can't find it right now, Vietnam era. Kid wore a "Fuck the War" T-shirt to school and got expelled. Supreme Court held that saying "Fuck the War" was protected speech. I'll keep looking and if I come up with a cite, I'll post it.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. Google the Supreme Court case Cohen v. California

A 1971 decision wherein a young man wore a jacket inside of a courthouse that said "Fuck The Draft" and was arrested. The USSC decided that it was a violation of his First Amendment rights.

http://www.epic.org/free_speech/cohen.html

[recoveringrepublican]

22. Thank you very much. nt

[Somawas]

27. Cohen v. California. That's what I was thinking of.

[7P Dude]

6. On another note...

What good does a "Fuck Bush" sign do? It seems that would do more harm in terms of getting people to listen to your view than whatever positive benefit it may have.

[troubleinwinter]

14. It expresses a person's view.

[7P Dude]

20. I realize that.

But all it does is stereotype yourself somebody too immature to get your point across in a rational manner. You take credibility away from everyone else at the protest who may be trying to actually get a point across instead of just making sure everyone knows how pissed off you are.

[troubleinwinter]

35. "too immature to get your point across in a rational manner."

Ask Cheney.

[troubleinwinter]

16. Ask Cheney.

[recoveringrepublican]

23. I'm not saying I agreed with it, only I defend his right to say it, just

like I have no problem with the protest warriors who come out to our Saturday vigils. The message is besides the point, it seemed like the sheriff felt they were well within their rights to oppress us, screw our rights.

[SammyBlue]

7. Context. Supreme Court case Cohen V. California (1971)

a man walked into a court room with a "Fuck The Draft" shirt and was arrested by the baliff for obscenity, charging him with "willfully and unlawfully and maliciously disturbing the peace and quier by engaging in tumultuous and offensive conduct."

This 6 - 3 decision stated, according to Justice Harlan, that "one man's vulgarity is another man's lyric." Even in the dissent, Justice Blackmun wrote that the action from Cohen was an "absurd and immature antic."

What was the crime the member was charged with? Doesn't matter. Contact the ACLU immediately and demanded the charged be dropped and the arrest record be cleared. . .then sue the Sheriff's office, Pinellas County (since the arresting office is an employee of the county), each member of the County Legislature (or Board of Supervisors), the arresting officer and the Sheriff personally.

Go for the throat and if you think it's overkill and you have no standing. . .well, "that's for the courts to decide."

[recoveringrepublican]

26. Thank you also nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. Good ideas, be determined, but you can be cuntersued for malicious suits.

[jobycom]

8. From Wikipedia

"Freedom of expression

In 1971, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the mere public display of fuck is protected under the First and Fourteenth Amendments and cannot be made a criminal offense. In 1968, Paul Robert Cohen had been convicted of "disturbing the peace" for wearing a jacket with "FUCK THE DRAFT" on it (which was to do with conscription in the Vietnam War.) The conviction was upheld by the Court of Appeals and overturned by the Supreme Court. Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971).

Pornographer Larry Flynt, representing himself before the U.S. Supreme Court in 1983 in a libel case, shouted, "Fuck this court!" during the proceedings and called the justices "nothing but eight assholes and a token cunt". Chief Justice Warren E. Burger had him arrested for contempt of court but the charge was later dismissed.

In Colorado Springs, tavern owner Leonard Carlo had over 29 signs containing the word fuck, including the slogans "Leonard's II Fucking Much," "No Fucking Children, Animals, Tabs or Checks!", and "No fucking tap or draw beer." Signs on the restroom doors read "Fucking Men" and "Fucking Women." Also, the top of Leonard's bald head was tattooed with the words "Fuck U. Leave Me the FUCK Alone." A state liquor agent removed all 29 signs from Leonard's Bar on August 31, 1999 because he believed the signs violated a state regulation that prohibits profanity in bars."

-----------

Very interesting article, actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck

[SammyBlue]

11. The Colorado Springs one is funny

Sad thing is, the FRC is based in that place. . .The Springs is reactionary fundie land and I'm sure some fundie got pissed because no state liquor board acts unless there is a complaint or an observation. . .in the Springs, the former would actually happen more.

BTW. . .I said fuck all the time in Colorado bars. I say fuck all the time now. You don't like, you can do to things. . .fuck off or piss off!

[frogmarch]

12. I don't know about

the legality of using the F word, but here's a funny wav about it.

http://www.slhacker.com/downloads/fword.wav

[bluedawg12]

10. The derivation of the F-bomb

fornication under the consent of the king.

Guess it had to do with marriage and the lord of the manor thing.

But today the word is so loaded...the "ef" and "K" sound are harsh.

Still, not sure why an allusion to intercourse is offensive?

I really hate the word: sodomite. It's weird, biblical, and about as fair as calling heterosexuals f*ckers.

However, in terms of politically persuasive speech the F-word is not that useful...seems to turn people off.

[Straight Shooter]

13. Really? I heard a different origin of it.

Old England, whenever a sexual assault case was placed on the police blotter, they notated it "Found Under Carnal Knowledge" as a delicate way of phrasing "rape." Eventually they just shortened it to FUCK, and from there it developed into common use as slang for sexual intercourse, and then evolved from there to mean, well, whatever the f*ck you want it to mean, I guess.

This is weird, I was just thinking about the origin of the word "fuck" yesterday.

[skooooo]

17. According to the Oxford English Dictionary..

a1503 DUNBAR Poems lxxv. 13 Be his feiris he wald haue fukkit. 1535 LYNDESAY Satyre 1363 Bischops..may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit. 1535-36 Answer to Kingis Flyting 49 Ay fukkand lyke ane furious Fornicatour. 1598 FLORIO Worlde of Wordes 137/1 Fottere, to iape, to sard, to fucke, to swive, to occupy. c1650 in Hales & Furnivall Percy's Folio MS. (1867) 90 Which made him to haue a mighty mind To clipp, kisse, & to ffuck. 1680 ROCHESTER Poems on Several Occasions (1950) 14 Much Wine had past with grave discourse, Of who Fucks who, and who does worse. c1684 Sodom II. 30 Hee Fucks to please his will, but I for need. 1707 ‘MADAM BLE’ Fifteen Plagues of Maidenhead 4 But I poor Virgin never shall be F. a1750 A. ROBERTSON Poems (1750) 256 But she gave proof that she could fk. c1800 BURNS Merry Muses (1911) 71 You can fk where'er you please. c1863 PHILO CUNNUS Festival of Passions II. 54 That female nation who being encamped near their enemies were fucked, during a truce, by the hostile party. 1869 ROSSETTI Let. 15 Sept. (1965) II. 743 If Byron fd his sister he fd her and there an end.




a1568 A. SCOTT Poems iv. 55 Thir foure, the suth to sane, Enforsis thame to fucking. 1680 ROCHESTER Poems on Several Occasions (1950) 30 Through all the Town, the common Fucking Post, On whom each Whore, relieves her tingling Cunt. 1707 . c1888-94 My Secret Life III. 228 This house had but eight rooms, and two mere closets to let out for fucking. Ibid. VIII. 307 She was..a magnificent bit of fucking flesh, but nothing more. 1893 FARMER & HENLEY Slang III. 80/2 Fucking..Adj., A qualification of extreme contumely. Adv. Intensitive and expletive; a more violent form of bloody.

[Straight Shooter]

19. Well, f*ck, we're all wrong.

At least according to urbanlegends.com, to-wit:

Having consulted the definitive reference work on this subject (yes, there is such a thing: "The F-Word" by Jesse Sheidlower, published by Random House in 1999), we feel confident in dismissing the above claims as imaginative bunk.

The word fuck did not originate as an acronym. It crept, fully formed, into the English language from Dutch or Low German around the 15th century (it's impossible to say precisely when because so little documentary evidence exists, probably due to the fact that the word was so taboo throughout its early history that people were afraid to write it down). The American Heritage Dictionary says its first known occurrence in English literature was in the satirical poem "Flen, Flyss" (c.1500), where it was not only disguised as a Latin word but encrypted — gxddbov — which has been deciphered as fuccant, pseudo-Latin for "they fuck."

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-f-word.htm

[msongs]

36. fuck = for unlawful carnal knowledge ->

this from answer.com:

Middle English, attested in pseudo-Latin fuccant, (they) fuck, deciphered from gxddbov.]

WORD HISTORY The obscenity fuck is a very old word and has been considered shocking from the first, though it is seen in print much more often now than in the past. Its first known occurrence, in code because of its unacceptability, is in a poem composed in a mixture of Latin and English sometime before 1500. The poem, which satirizes the Carmelite friars of Cambridge, England, takes its title, “Flen flyys,” from the first words of its opening line, “Flen, flyys, and freris,” that is, “fleas, flies, and friars.” The line that contains fuck reads “Non sunt in coeli, quia gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk.” The Latin words “Non sunt in coeli, quia,” mean “they are not in heaven, since.” The code “gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk” is easily broken by simply substituting the preceding letter in the alphabet, keeping in mind differences in the alphabet and in spelling between then and now: i was then used for both i and j; v was used for both u and v; and vv was used for w. This yields “fvccant vvivys of heli.” The whole thus reads in translation: “They are not in heaven because they fuck wives of Ely .”

[timtom]

18. I'm sorry, but...

the fact that the German word "ficken -- to fuck" suggests that it is a Germanic word (and, hence, Anglo-Saxon). I don't believe there is much evidence to support the theories of posters 10 and 13 as the word being acronymic.

[bluedawg12]

37. Well, this was a scholarly and lively bit of entomology

on our part. LOL! :thumbsup:

Let no one say we are not an inquisitive group. heh heh

[WinkyDink]

24. If there is no obscenity worth banning,

what obscenity is left worth hurling?

IOW, why not yell, "Macaroni you!" Or, "Go acorn yourself!"
IOW, Part 2, why worry about uttering "the 'N' word" in public or on TV?
IOW, Part 3, let's not be disingenuous.

And the origin of the "F" word is most decidedly Anglo-Saxon.

[proud patriot]

28. I'm wearing my "Pure Fuckin Rock" Queensryche shirt

right now ...but I guess I better change
before I go to the store x(

[pitohui]

30. well it prob. is up to the courts to decide

damn few law enforcement officers are licensed to practice law

i have had the opposite problem of officers refusing to arrest in cases of violation of law for assault, they take it on themselves to decide that assault is OK if the victim is in a disfavored class, such as female etc. & the assault is what they consider minor, e.g. you didn't die or lose a limb

actually assault is never legal under any circumstance but my experience has been you can't sue the police dept. for failure to make the arrest because they are not expected to be attorneys

i would imagine the opposite is also true, you can't sue a police officer for making an arrest when it's a judgment call, it has to be super egregious for "false arrest" to come into play

i think i'm oversimplifying what i've heard from several different of my attorneys over the yrs but i hope you get the idea

the take-away is that if you are in a disfavored class -- in your case, "protestor" -- the LEOs are in a position of power & you're not because none of you are lawyers or judges & even if you were the case wouldn't be settled right there anyway

i would not allow the f bomb to be used in future protests, it makes yr young people vulnerable to arrest or at minimum at risk of being ticketed for obscenity, silly, i agree, but why waste time on this sort of side issue

[Berserker]

31. Thanks posters

that was a good fuckin read.

[skooooo]

32. Fuckin- A!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

34. The police could be enforcing an unconstitutional law

They could be just doing their jobs of enforcing the law and if they are acting under proper color of authority and not violating the law themselves through the manner of arrest, it could be the local law itself that is at fault.

[rasputin1952]

38. I have no problem w/ the public use of the word "fuck", especially

when used in this context. people have the right and someimes the obligation to speak what is on their minds. One thing is for sure, their is no misreading the intentions here...:D

We use language to express pleasure, displeasure and a zillion other things in between...taking it to base level is fine by me...gets the message across.

I once was leaving a church service, and was called upon by the preacher to wonder why I was leaving 2/3rds through the sermon, I told him, "you're full of shit. You have no concept of what Jesus taught." He could have let me go in peace, instead, he wanted to make a point...within 6 mo's his church was defunct do to a lack of followers. Hopefully, the same will happen to the GOP because of bush...:D

[Tsiyu]

39. I only have one thing to say

"FUCK BUSH!!!!!!!!"


Thank you