A Scary Conversation With a Born Again.

[MarianJack]

Let me say up front that the man I'm speaking about is a fundie and a bushie. In spite of this, I like both he and his family very much. I do home based family therapy and this man and his wife are adopting his nephew and I'm working with the family on insuring a smooth transition, as the nephew was HORRIBLY abused and neglected by his birth parents. In spite of the politics, if I were Dr. Frankenstein and constructing a family for this boy, these are the parents I would have built! My supervisor has said that in all of her years, she has never walked into a more suitable home.

And then tonight happened. We were discussing discipline and he mentioned to me that "Dr." Dobson said that you should spank your child (and I don't have a problem with an OCCASIONAL whack on the ass), but not with your hand, but with a NEUTRAL OBJECT, like a stick or a shoe or a paddle. BTW, he is NOT permitted to physically punish his nephew.

My point in relating this is that this malignant bastard dobson is advocating abuse to soft headed people who will wind up being reported to DHS or child welfare because they think he knows what the fuck hes talking about!

These TV "preachers" are freakin' DANGEROUS!

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Speaking of that

my immediate family are all Christian and my aunt's are Bush supporters but they are against spanking. My aunt once had a little chat with my other aunt about spanking and they aren't for hard spanking etc. Has anybody looked into people like Dobson? From all I know and have heard of Dobson he is dangerous to children. I wouldn't even let my future children ever be in the same room with Dobson without me. I've never heard of any of my aunts spanking their kids and when they were younger and I was around them I don't remember seeing them being spanked. Talked to I'm sure but not spanked. Dobson is really a freak (especially his "advice" on sons and fathers with the shower).

[jwirr]

16. The real problem with people like dobsin advocating

spanking is that they are talking to a varied audience. One parent will hear him saying that occasional careful discipline that includes making sure you in no way physically harming the child is okay. The next idiot will interpret dobsin as saying that the parent is allowed to do as he/she pleases with his/her own children. dobsin does nothing to acknowledge that there is a danger in the last type of parent. In investigating abuse most authorities will allow mild discipline but when it reaches the point of willful cruelty then it is abuse no matter what. When a parent is cruel to a child for his/her own gratification then it is abuse.

[MarianJack]

31. When a Child is punished for the Parent's Gratification...

...you're talking about a really sick parent!

[jwirr]

56. Yes and dobsin is reaching those parents and justifying

their actions with his approval. Also I don't think you have to be sick to be that kind of parent - just very selfish. My ex made the girls go to their bedroom if they asked him a question when the television show "Batman" was on. He wasn't sick - but he was immature and cared only about himself. I went and sat in the bedroom with them and left him to his own idiocy. Shortly after that WE divorced him. Been happy ever after.

[kikiek]

2. Kind of flies in the face of reason to even think of physically punishing

a child who has been horribly abused and neglected much less one who hasn't.

[NashVegas]

12. Twisted Logic

I can see someone, meaning well, setting out to show the kid the difference between reasonable, and unreasonable, physical punishment. This kid has a lot of things to unlearn, and I don't think this would be helpful.

[MarianJack]

32. I Wasn't Clear in My Post

He was referring to his OWN kid. He is prevented by the state from doing anything physical to his nephew.

By law here in Maine, I coud let an open hand swat on the ass go. A paddle gets reported, and I wouldn't hesitate for ONE SECOND!

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. I can remember when our teachers (here in Maine) used to be able

to swat you with a paddle back in the 70s.

[AX10]

3. It's safe to say that Rev. Dobson is for child abuse....

as a means to "control".

[FreedomAngel82]

4. It certainly seems that way

I don't know any Christians personally who are for spanking and child abuse like that. :\

[Der Blaue Engel]

5. You may want to be careful talking about a client on a public board

Just a friendly suggestion. :)

Edited to add: But, yeah, Dobson is, in my opinion, a child abuse enabler...speaking as someone who "benefited" from his ideas on discipline as a child.

[MarianJack]

33. True,...

...but I took GREAT pains to be very vague!

dobson is, you are correct, an abuse enabler!

[cynatnite]

6. If I were looking for spanking advice...

That freak is the last place I'd look to for it.

Concerning this child...are they willing to spank a kid who was abused by his parents? That bugs the hell out of me.

[NashVegas]

10. Begging for a Backfire

Treating an abused kid to physical violence isn't likely to earn them respect or admiration.

[cynatnite]

11. Not only that...

It seems like it would further harm him since he came from an abused home.

We've occasionally spanked our kids, but common sense that you certainly don't even consider it with a child that's been abused.

[Carni]

24. I agree

I grew up in the 60's when the big threat was *wait until your dad gets home you'll get a spanking*

IF I got one (which was rare) they were very lame and I secretly thought "well thank God I'm not grounded because this will only last a few seconds"

As a parent I will not lie...I have resorted to attempting to swat my daughter on the behind on a few occasions (not often)usually what would happen is that I would miss her butt and crash my hand into something else (tables, chairs, door frames etc)

Corporal punishment doesn't work for rational people...we usually just miss and hurt ourselves -- probably out of a subconscious guilt of some kind. We don't want to hit them in the butt so we injure ourselves instead.

I don't condemn the lame swat on the butt by the average frustrated parent (who usually only misses the target and hurts themselves) but I do condemn the whacko thinking of Dobson and spanking a previously abused child is just dumb on many levels!

[cynatnite]

27. It was very common in the house I grew up in...

I don't consider it abuse, but it just seemed to not mean that much. Last one I got I was 13 and that was the last because I started laughing. My mother threw up her hands and walked away.

My hubby and his brothers were never spanked. As toddlers there was a swat on the top of the hand for messing with stuff. When they got older they worked on the ranch with their parents.

When we got married we made decisions early on about discipline. It was rare and one of many options. By five or six the kids were old enough to reason and understand.

I think we're about done because the youngest is six and he does much better with other methods anyway.

We also have never lied to our kids. Well, when the oldest ditched school hubby lectured her and told her he'd never done that. I had to remind him of the time he skipped to go hunting with his brothers. He tried to say he was sick that day...I know, but I love the guy. :)

The line 'that it didn't hurt me when I was a kid' is a weak argument and I get sick of hearing it as an excuse to spank for whatever reason. If a parent is going to spank, it should be one of many options and it should be rarely, IMO. It should also be without anger.

My family has given us grief because they don't think we spank our children enough. Given my kids have never done drugs, never been arrested, the older two hold jobs, the oldest one supports herself and her kids, and overall how well they've done, I'd say our kids have done pretty well.

[MarianJack]

34. They are not spanking their nephew,...

...but I didn't make that clear in my post.

He refers to his biological son, and I advised him that the "good doctor's" (:sarcasm: ) word is directly contrary to our state laws. Something I forgot to say in my post is that this guy was struggling between his feelings and dobson's advice.

dobson is a shit!

[stepnw1f]

7. They Fall for These Con Men

Con Men or Charlatans. It must mean life or death for these people to have reality tell them, that they put their faith into crooks. I'm sure it must be incredibly humbling for them, unless they are humble enough to begin with.

[motocicleta]

8. Dobson is seriously so depressing for exactly this reason

The big question is why are so many people soft headed, how did they get this way, and what can be done. Because I don't believe it is genetic. I don't think some people are just so moronic that they naturally belong with evil like Dobson. I think our culture created this problem, and MUST figure out the solution.

[MarianJack]

35. Unfortunately,...

...the right hijacked the name of Christianity.

The sad thing is that we of the religious LEFT and CENTER allowed it to happen.

No F'ing more!

[Ladyhawk]

9. I have a less favorable view of fundies for that very reason.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Fundies are gullible. They're easily taken in by the likes of Bush and Dobson. What's more, I believe that being raised fundy is inherently abusive because of the doctrine of Original Sin. I was taught I was inherently bad because of something a couple of fruit-munching simpletons did six thousand years ago. I grew up with a whole host of problems that stemmed from my fundy upbringing.

Dr. Marlene Winell has found that adult children of fundamentalists have a lot of the same problems that plague adult children of alcoholics. I wouldn't recommend any child be raised in a fundamentalist home. I've seen the effects up close and personal and it ain't pretty.

Probably my opinion won't be terribly popular, but there it is.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

18. This child is not you...

I came from a home where spanking was common and looking back, it did me little good. In our home, we spank on occasion, but with our youngest at six now, he's passing the age of needing it. Our three kids have had a few because we feel it should be rare and one of many options in the way of discipline.

But common sense dictates that when caring for a child who has come from an abusive home using spanking would do a hell of a lot of harm.

This is not a kid that should be spanked considering what the OP has said about him. He has valid concerns as do the rest of us who see the irreparable harm that could be done.

[jwirr]

19. Honey, we parents who raised our children according to

Spock did not say crazy things like that to our children. We did talk to them about the damage they were causing to themselves and others. My children were smart enough at the age of 2 to understand that they made people hurt when they did wrong. You underestimate the intelligence of a child when you think that spanking is the best way of discipline.

[kikiek]

20. Hard to know if physical violence was the only thing that worked for you.

It was the only thing you apparently knew. I don't think people who use reasoning with their children cause them to grow up and be annoying whining adults. They learn how to deal with conflict and in a non violent way. Also because people don't hit it doesn't mean their children aren't taught there are no consequences to poor behavior. One non violent way would be to not let you play mario brothers for a period of time.

[Carni]

25. A belt? Oh please--

JimRob calls..did you take a wrong turn?

[Crunchy Frog]

28. Rather a crude stereotype you've got there

of non-spanking parents. If you were my kid, I'd of just taken your Mario Brothers away from you for awhile. You could scream and tantrum all you wanted about it too, and it still wouldn't elicit the little parody of a speech that you just posted, AND...I wouldn't have a sore hand afterwards.}(

[MarianJack]

37. OH SHIT, SHIT, SHIT!!!!!!!!!

I finally get an asshole freeper to make an obnoxious remark in a thread that I started and its GONE before I see it!

DAMN!

Can anybody tell me what the dipshit said? I can get an idea from the other responses, but I'd like more info if possible!

[Kailassa]

49. Not an asshole freeper, just a very mixed up guy.

I don't see why it was deleted. He had said that he had been belted a lot as a kid and it had done him good. It was really sad to read.

Oh, he did suggest that everyone who was not belted as a kid grew up to be whiners, so I guess he could have been a freeper. People just felt sorry for him.

[MarianJack]

51. Thanx!

:yourock:

[morningglory]

15. My fundy childhood friend, raised her family fundy. Now her grown

daughter had a baby and spanked him hard from birth,especially if he cried in church. An infant should be able to be quiet for 2 hours all dressed up in itchy clothes, right? As soon as he got into nursery school, he was trying to put the other kids' eyes out, hitting, biting, etc. Then they had a new baby girl and could not leave the infant in the same room with this 4-yr-old fiend.

[MarianJack]

36. 99% of the Time I Would Agree With That, Ladyhawk,...

...but what I just illustrated was a small part of this individual, and the nephew has been in varied gladiator academies for a few years.

I also made very clear to this fellow how Maine law regards dobson's views and my responsibilities, hwich I will not hesitate to fulfill!

[nickyt]

14. Can you picture Jesus Christ with a shoe in his hand pounding a

child with it?

[Crunchy Frog]

30. How about a Madonna and Child picture...

with Mary whacking little baby Jesus's backside in line with Biblical teachings.

[MarianJack]

38. These Fundie Assholes...

...cherry pick the Old Testament and some of the Epistles for the most Draconian passages.

They conviently leave out any of Jesus' teachings.

Morons!

[sleipnir]

17. Someone should beat Dobson upside the head with a shoe

and knock some logic into him.

He's a fucking despicable human being.

[MarianJack]

39. Maybe Somebody DID!

He wants everybody to turn out as well as he did! :sarcasm:

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. I don't believe in spanking, never have. I think it sets a bad example

and send a wrong message. An adult should be able to find other ways in which to deal with bad behavior. Just my $.02 worth.

[MarianJack]

40. A Good $.02, Blue State Native!

My son gets a very infrequent whack on the ass, but it would'nt hurt a fly. We find that time-outs work MUCH better.

ChicaAzul and I are the kind of Christians that people loke dobson HATE!

We think that Jesus taught us to actually LOVE!

[goddess40]

54. glad to see a voice of reason

kids that were spanked and grow up ok do in spite of the spanking not because of it.

My crazy fundie sister used to use that dumb-ass reason for using a wooden spoon to hit her daughter - when I caught her at it I took the spoon and warned her if I ever caught her doing it again I'd shove the spoon up her ass. She and her husband have been very careful about it since.

My in-laws were also warned, after saying how they had spanked some of their other grandchildren, that they would see the inside of a police station if they hit my kids.

[mcctatas]

22. "Dr." Dobson is a horror show...

I have three children, and I spanked one of them once for running out in the street. Then I realized I was mostly doing it because of my own fear, and I felt so horrid afterward that I cried and she didn't. These fundies are certainly into controlling the weaker members of their cult, his opinions on wives are pretty neanderthalish too (although he doesn't advocate spanking them...lest it lead to sex!). I thought that spare the rod and spoil the child shit went out with disco...leave it to freeps and fundies to revive it! :grr:

[Kailassa]

26. From the sound of Dobson I doubt very much ...

that him spanking his wife would lead to sex. But after he's had a session of throwing the dog against the bathroom walls, as he describes doing, the poor doggy might be in deep trouble.

[mcctatas]

29. Oh no...

better not tell Rick "man-on-dog" Santorum:rofl:

[MarianJack]

41. The Only Time I Really Whipped My Son's Ass...

...I felt so ashamed of myself afterwards that I had to call my wife at work and confess how much of a shit I felt like.

It worked out well for my son. Later that day we took him to a McDonalds and let him have a LONG go in the playground.

He thinks that we're pricks when we give him time outs, but he knows how very much he is LOVED!

[Kailassa]

23. I used to be regularly hit so hard that I had hand-shaped bruises ...

all over my legs. That was a long time ago now, but I still remember the shame and humiliation of it. This was in a secluded redneck community, so it was the only style of parenting I knew; a mother who took a perverted pleasure in trying to make me cry, (which I was too stubborn to do, no matter what she did,) and a father who knocked me unconscious whenever I corrected him or disagreed with him. (He died just last night.)

When I had my own children I was on my own, had no support, and the only way of parenting I knew was to hit. Luckily I was still stubborn, and knew I must not bring my children up the way I'd been brought up, but when your only guidance is a negative, (I must not do anything that was done to me,) it's awfully hard to forge a good style of parenting on your own.

All too often my instinct to lash out at my own kids would beat my wish to be a good kind mother too them. It's worked out ok in the long run, they are grown now and they are wonderful to me, but it was bloody difficult to overcome my own conditioning.

Now I have more experience I can treat my granddaughter the way I wish I'd treated my own children. She was very difficult for years, but I could always see her good heart through it all, and she has done her utmost to behave well for me. When she was just tiny and was misbehaving, (she has my temper and stubbornness,) I'd look her in the eye and smile and tell her I knew she really wanted to be good for me, and she'd have a cuddle and pull her socks up.

Now she is 12, she knows she can talk to me about anything, so when she has questions about sex, drugs and problems with getting teased, she talks to me about them. I believe in trusting your kids, being strict about the way they treat others, teaching them to care, but apart from that giving them information and support, helping them make their own choices. Nothing is more likely to make a kid behave than having an adult who they love, trust and respect, who has time to talk to them, and who they know trusts them.

Some kids might need some physical discipline, but it can never be the backbone of your child-raising. Kids need guidance, not fear, so that they will want for their own sakes to behave decently. You can never watch your kid 24 hours a day. If their bad behaviour is only stopped by fear of punishment, they will be little bastards as soon as you look the other way.

[MarianJack]

42. What a Beautiful Post, Kailassa!

I think that the goal of parenting is to raise kids who will do the right thing when they don't know that they're being watched!

I too, had an abusive father. We haven't spoken in nearly 20 years. I know that he nearly died in late August, and all of that bad old shit churned up again. I think I may have a sense of how you feel with your father's passing. Please accept my sympathies and condolences for any pain that you or your family feel today.

Peace!

[Kailassa]

48. Thank you MarionJack

I'm sure that you too know the feeling of sadness for something that never was. My father hated girls, and was glad he only had one daughter and 6 sons. A few years ago he told me sadly that I had turned out more like the son he'd always wanted than any of his sons had. (He meant it as a complement.)

Having children of my own to love and be loved by has taught me how much my parents missed out on by not being real parents to me. And it's the same thing with your father. He has cheated himself out of having a you as a friend once you grew up. We can make up for the loss but our parents can't.

He talked to me about dying, never having given it a thought when he was younger, and wanted something he could believe in. The one notion he took to was reincarnation, his whole face lit up at the idea of coming back as a lyrebird.

[Neil Lisst]

43. Spanking is primarily cultural, not religion, based.

While Dobson is an influence on fundamentalist Christians, it's more like the Dr. Laura situation. People tune in whoever they most agree with. It's like people who listen to Rush. They're already that way, Rush doesn't make them that way. And so it is with those who find confirmation in Dobson or Dr. Laura. Both confirm for religious and pseudo-religious types that hitting children is OK.

I'm opposed to spanking or hitting children in any way. But I recognize that it is accepted in some parts of the culture. For example, hitting kids is much more acceptable among blacks than among whites. This is not based upon any religious belief, but how a subculture treated spanking historically.

Fundies tend to be more rural in nature, if not background, and rural areas tend to be more inclined to accept spanking AND fundie religion.


The religion is part of it, but the spanking imperatives transcend religion.

[ComerPerro]

44. Show him how insane, paranoid, and belligerent Dobson is

Tell him that Dobson has given many suggestions for raising children.

He has taught us to avoid Ellen Degeneres (she's a lesbian), to avoid the Tele-Tubbies (one of them is gay), and Spongebob Squarepants (gay).

He also advised fathers on how to make sure their son grows up straight:

(I copied this from my blog, but the link for the newsletter in which he gave this advice doesn't work now)


Here's is Dobson's advice, which he borrows from the words of one Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D, who apparently is a psychologist who is an expert in setting gay people straight (forgive the pun):

Meanwhile, the boy's father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son's maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a penis, just like his, only bigger.

[Lorien]

45. No kidding! I'm afraid for my own nephew. My once atheist mom

is now a born again. We were spanked occasionally as young children, but not beaten. Now my mother strongly advocates beating with a "switch" (sapling branch) after reading Dobson. My nephew is only a few months old, but I know that as soon as he's old enough to learn the word "no" my mom will have her switch at hand for him. she's eager to try out Dobson's recommendations because she feels that she was far too lenient with my sister and I (and no, I've never been in any trouble that I brought upon myself; good student, no drugs, etc.). What Dobson advocates IS child abuse, imho.

[misternormal]

47. After raising 6 kids....

I admit that I did spank my kids... but I don't think that makes me a bad person, or even one who does not love them...

There are times, and as a last resort, that the kids got a couple of swats on the backside, with the bare open hand, that were intended to sting, for several reasons...

1... to get their attention.

2... to get a point across that I was extremely disappointed with the behavior.

3... to be sure that they understood, no matter what, that I was good for my word.

I know that many will not agree with my methods, but none of my kids have been in jail, nor have they been arrested, and the ones that do have kids, do not abuse them.

There are limits to everything... and when One has reached those limits, after conversing, taking things away and grounding, just to name a few... a few good swats caused, at least in my experience, no permanent damage.

[Kailassa]

55. Kids need warmth and closeness in order to thrive.

Some families that use only non-physical discipline can be much colder places than some families where an occasional smack is part of discipline.

If a little kid is misbehaving, we have to do what works to stop it, making sure we keep them physically safe without injuring their psyches. So when my 2 year old wouldn't stop trying to poke knives into power points (after seeing and electrician at work), she got a sharp smack on the hand, hard enough to get the message across.

Sometimes throwing them off balance, (figuratively speaking) allows you to get through when you can't otherwise. Once when my granddaughter threw a really bad tantrum in the doorway of a big store, rather than argue, I threw myself down beside her and did likewise. Soon She was tugging me to get me up.
"Don't do that, Oma," she was saying worriedly, "you look silly."
"But you do it all the time, it's my turn today," I told her.
She promised to never do it again if I stopped then, and she never did.

It's all about learning what works, loving them heaps, and keeping the lines of communication open.

[woo me with science]

50. oh now i finally understand

why these relatives of ours always threatened their kids with "Mr. Spoon." Mr. Spoon was the neutral object!

It always seemed really creepy to me to put the spanking off on the spoon, as though the spoon were doing the punishing all by itself.

[B Calm]

52. Is this the same dude who thinks we should show our penis to

our sons and compare them?

[Ilsa]

53. Neutral Object: the parent doesn't have to feel how hard they

are hitting the child. How convenient.

I've also heard the excuse that "hands are for loving, not punishing" and that this way the child will dissociate the punishment from the parent. Yeah, right. :sarcasm:

I wonder how empowered that child will feel seeing his cousin get punished by a paddle while the parents do not know how to effectively deal with him since they can't paddle him? I bet he tests some limits regularly.

BTW, I'd take some detail out of the original post also, if you can.