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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:08 PM
Original message
Indictment preparations ......



"We must seek out the spiritual people because only that is going to help us survive. We have a great force -- a great brotherhood. This brotherhood involves all living things. And that, of course, involves us all. We are talking about the natural world, the natural force, all the trees, everything that grows, the water. That is part of our force.

"But when you gather the spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and the presence of the negative force.

"There is a great battle coming."
-- Chief Oren Lyons, Onondaga Nation

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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm with you chief.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. A Ho
My sweatlodge brothers and sisters and other mystical brothers and sisters have been saying this for a long time. We are gathering and preparing.....
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. "Is everyone in?
Is everyone in? The ceremony is about to begin."
-- James Douglas Morrison
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I can smell the negative force.....the Traitors of Freedom...
Shall not steal our Nation !!!!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Hi H20 Man!
I enjoy all your posts and am honored you responded to my comment!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. And I read your
thoughtful posts, and am honored to take part in conversation with you. You are the gentle voice of reason.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I'm in.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
68. Can't thank you enough, H2O Man.
Speechless... thank you.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
74. I want to be in the gathering too. Your post rang so resonantly for me.
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 11:32 PM by Nothing Without Hope
Without the spirituality and the connection to the natural world and one another, we cannot find our way forward from this dark place. With with this community, we can make this a gateway to a better world for us all.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
90. I'm in.
I'm ready.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. ``
the stone people don't lie
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. Was Prepared Since Childhood
Grandparents "knew" and warned me of such days. They knew they wouldn't be here to help me. So proud of the "gathers" giving courage.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very nice.
You have been telling people that this is the Eleventh Hour.
Now you must go back and tell people that this is The Hour.

Here are the things that must be considered:
Where are you living?
What are you doing?
What are your relationships?
Are you in right relation?
Where is your water?

Know our garden.
It is time to speak your Truth.

Create your community.
Be good to each other.
And do not look outside yourself for the leader.

This could be a good time.

There is a river flowing now very fast.
It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid.
They will try to hold on to the shore.
They will feel like they are being torn apart, and they will suffer greatly.

Know that the river has its destination.
The elders say that we must let go of the shore, push off toward the middle of the river, keep our eyes open and our heads above the water.
See who is there with you and celebrate.

At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves!
For the moment that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.

The time of the lonely wolf is over. Gather yourselves!
Banish the word struggle from your attitude and vocabulary.
All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.

We are the ones we have been waiting for.





The Elders, Oraibi, Arizona, Hopi Nation


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Beautiful!
"We are the ones we have been waiting for"!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
65. Pefect!!
"We are the ones we have been waiting for."

:)
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #65
79. The Fight Has Already Begun For Some
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 05:48 AM by Binka
The only cure for grief is action.
George Henry Lewes


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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
101. Bless your heart Binka!!
You who've been through so much. We SALUTE YOU! You are still in our prayers! O8) DC
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
66. Deeply Inspiring!
Can feel generations of Native heritage within.

Shew. Thank you for this post.

Have a feeling "we ain't seen nuttin' yet, honey!"

In!
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. This is the hour
We are the ones that we have been waiting for. :grouphug:


Thank you for bringing timely words of wisdom. :hi:
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hi H2O Man
Love your posts, very thorough.
I work with a few IronWorkers from the Onon. Nation
Great guys, hard workers and very smart folks.

thanks again
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Fabulous sig picture
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. :-)
thank you

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And you!
Now, doesn't that pool look perfect for cooling off in after a nice sweat? Just a short walk in the woods!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. it's been too long
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 06:43 PM by G_j
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. Oh. It Most Certainly Has Been, G_j
"way too long..."
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Beware of Darkness
Watch out now, take care
Beware of falling swingers
Dropping all around you
The pain that often mingles
In your fingertips
Beware of darkness

Watch out now, take care
Beware of the thoughts that linger
Winding up inside your head
The hopelessness around you
In the dead of night

Beware of sadness
It can hit you
It can hurt you
Make you sore and what is more
That is not what you are here for

Watch out now, take care
Beware of soft shoe shufflers
Dancing down the sidewalks
As each unconscious sufferer
Wanders aimlessly
Beware of maya

Watch out now, take care
Beware of greedy leaders
They take you where you should not go
While weeping atlas cedars
They just want to grow, grow and grow
Beware of darkness (beware of darkness)

-George Harrison

Thanks H2O Man. I do appreciate your perspective!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I've been listening
to both versions of that from the re-issued "All Things Must Pass" for the past two days. That and "I Dig Love" more than the rest.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. It's been over a month for me.
I've got to put it on tonight, now it's in my head again!

Here's another one that moves me:

What I feel, I cant say
But my love is there for you anytime of day
But if its not love that you need
Then Ill try my best to make everything succeed

Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side

What I know, I can do
If I give my love now to everyone like you
But if its not love that you need
Then Ill try my best to make evrything succeed

Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side

What I feel, I cant say
But my love is there for you any time of day
But if its not love that you need
Then Ill try my best to make everything succeed

Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Oh tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side

What is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side

(fade :)
Oh tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me who am I without you by my side
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm in!
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 06:54 PM by kohodog


Last night I brought out "Wisdom Keepers" to look up Louis. The next page reminded me of the seventh generation and I got to thinking about how shortsighted our vision often is. Westerners often think of their grandchildren and what kind of world they want to leave for them. Seven generations is a long time and the thought of treading softly on the earth so it will be in great shape in seven generations is a humbling thought. As the New Riders sang, "Whatcha gonna do on the planet today?"

First the indictments, then time to clean up our act.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's right.
That is a wonderful book, from cover to cover.

Nice photo. It looks like an interesting overhang to the right.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. The woods here are deep
And my family has been here for four generations. We're recovering from the first when it was a tannery.

As I said, seven generations is a long time and something to keep in our minds.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. You've Been Right Before
But never so right as this. They can best us, for the moment, with money and power, but where we have the upper hand is with the spiritual. And we have the upper hand with that.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. A wise man once wrote: "Today, the United States is experiencing anomie."
There are numerous objective measures of this, including the high rates of violence; the use of legal and illegal drugs to cope with anxiety and depression; and the federal government's manipulation of fear to control the citizens in the most undemocratic of ways.

Why should we care about the Iroquois? Aren't they a small group of people, living largely in the margins of modern society? Perhaps, because as Victor Hugo said, "There is no such thing as a little country. The greatness of a people is no more determined by their number than the greatness of a man is determined by his height." (Quote taken from "The Book of the Hopi," by Frank Waters)

At the time of the Revolutionary War, the most influential of our "Founding Fathers" -- Franklin, Jefferson, and Madison -- were students of the Iroquois Confederacy. Our first "great document," the Articles of Confederation, were based largely on Iroquois thought. Our system of federalism is based entirely upon the Iroquois model.

Today, I thought we could examine a few Iroquois concepts, and see if they might be of some value to us in our struggle against anomie, and for democracy.

<clip>

From The Power of the Good Mind by H2O Man on July 26, 2005

Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


I'd urge all DUers to read (or re-read, as the case may be, that entire post).

And, then I think it worthwhile to reflect on what Bill Sher has to say in his blog at Huffington Post today:

The question on most peoples minds is: what the hell do we do now? It's about the future of Iraq, not the past.

Will we be able to connect a scandal over how we went to war to the debate about how we can best end the war? Yes. The key link is "credibility."

What the scandal starkly shows is how the Bushies preferred smearing a whistleblower, ruining a CIA agent's career and putting the lives of her network at risk over trusting the public with the facts about Iraq and the truth about their policy motives for war.

They have shown their lack of credibility. And what is essential to changing the political dynamic in Iraq is a restoration of credibility.

<clip>

From The Leak Scandal Is About The Future of Iraq on October 19, 2005

Link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-scher/the-leak-scand...


Mr. Sher is offering a contrast and an opportunity in his concluding remarks "As the CIA Leak scandal shows, the Bushies were not honest about Iraq from the beginning. Their word is mud at home and abroad. We need a foreign policy that is tough, moral and honest. The Republican Party has refused to provide it, Democrats can do better."

I think those who intend to claim they can do better might benefit from reading not only H2O Man's OP but purchasing a copy of White Roots of Peace: The Iroquois Book of Life and reading it, as well.

We must demand that any person who claims the honor of representing the Unites States of America demonstrate that they have been honest in every aspect of their life prior to standing before us and asking for our vote.


Peace.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. I am so emotional right now. This entire thread is so moving.
Dear God please watch over our country and her people. Help us to make the right choices and do the right things.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. When did the Chief say that?What battle is he referring to? Where
are the pictures taken?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Three answers:
{1} Around 1990.

{2} The situation around the globe, with specific reference to the environment.

{3} A short walk from my door.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Wow. Are you in the mountains? Lucky you if you are. If you're
lucky enough to be in the mountains, you're lucky enough.

So they saw this whole thing coming down then?

I love a Cree Indian Quote I saw here it said something like only when they (the white man) have poisoned the air and ruined the water will they realize that they cannot eat the dollar.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. You might find
Handsome Lake interesting. Oren teaches a lot of lessons based on him. He was a Seneca who, in 1798, became very ill, and was unconscious for a period of time. When he became conscious, he taught from his vision. He spoke of a time when trees would begin to die from the top down, which is the opposite of nature; as a result of acid rain, trees have begun to die from the top down. And he talked about a time in the future when water would heat up, and become oily, and poison. This was at a time when water was clear and clean. He saw these things 200 years ago.

I live in "upstate" (actually central) New York. I think it is a beautiful part of the country.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. What do his people say now? I read something not too long ago
about our karma and how ultimately this land must be returned to the Indians from whom it was taken. I sure wish that Native Americans ran the EPA. What a different world we would live in. I am so saddened by what we are doing to this beautiful planet and its creatures, plants too.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I had posted
an article in the summer about the Onondaga land claims suit, which had just been filed in federal court in Syracuse. Rather than demand land or money, the Council of Chiefs decided that they would request the EPA be forced to clean up about 100 "Superfund" sites in central New York.

I remember a number of people saying the land would be returned to Indians when I was young. That was about the same time that some people like Malcolm X were demanding a separate land of their own. I think that maybe it would be best if we recognized ourselves as being members of the human race, with a common destiny. We are not on a fence, where some will survive and others will not. We do not have the luxury of seeing ourselves as different "races" with separate fates. I think the most insightful people, be they black, brown, red, yellow, or white, recognize that truth today.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. The four colors of man need to work together n/t
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. That's true I didn't mean to suggest that I am different or that we
are different. I think we are all the same. What I read about the land being returned may have been an astrological thing, it was meant in terms of our karma, like a spiritual righting of the wrongs committed against them. I have no idea. I do agree that we are all in this together and we won't do any better than anyone else if we destroy our environment. In other words, race or economics won't matter then.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Right.
The world that those like the neocons and their ilk are creating is a nightmare. Humanity needs to wake up -- literally -- to a higher level of consciousness.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite sections from Gary Snyder's "Earth House Hold" (1968): "Projected into future time in Christian culture, this dream of a Millenium became the soil ofmany heresies. It is a dream handed down right to our own time -- of ecological balance, classless society, social and economic freedom. It is actually one of the possible futures open to us. To those who stubbornly argue 'it's against human nature,' we can only patiently reply that you must know your own nature before you can say this. Those who have gone into their own natures deeply have, for several thousand years now, been reporting that we have nothing to fear if we are willing to train ourselves, to open up, explore and grow."
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. On my blog, that's a draft I am working on. Call to Consciousness
I feel that call very deeply now. It's a call for humanity, but especially Americans to wake up from this dangerous slumber, stop sleepwalking, going through the motions of the status quo, snap out of it...become conscious, awake and aware, choose something new, something good or else face the consequences of this unconscious behavior. An examination of our conscience and our culture is desperately needed now.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. First it will be the elms, he said. Then the maples.
They will wither from the top down. Then the new People must arise. When the strawberries refuse to give their fruit, then it is too late.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. I love Maples. They are my favorite tree. Where did you learn
about the strawberries?
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. From talking with Haudenausenee (Iroquois) elders
I get around.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
71. It is!
Passed through that area many years ago. Stopped on the drive home, and watched the sun set along the mountains. Still in awe of that memory.

Always hoped to see & feel that again. You're so fortunate to live amid such an inspiring environment. Pains one to see the devastation all in the name of "greed."

Don't they realize they can't take it with them?

"Hope they love their children, too." Sting
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
94. Can you help me H2O Man?
My heritage is mostly Scottish and Irish, but my Great, Great Grandmother, on my mothers side was Indian, I know not what Tribe but do know it was an "upstate NY" Nation. Her last name was Addison (maiden name)who married a Bovee (French I believe) I am 66 yrs. old, and would love to find out more about my native heritage before I die.I want to be able to tell my grandchildren how this has given me a source of pride, and love of Spiritual things all my life. By the way, I'M IN!!! :pals: On the wings of Eagles soars my soul. On the tops of mountains spirits cry. In the running deep waters will I rest? Many waters deep and cool, my spirit dwells! DC O8) I FEEL your words, as well as I see them.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. Do you know
where is upstate New York? Just curious if you know , for example, in the western part of the state, or perhaps near Syracuse or Utica? I can't think of any Addisons off hand, but might be able to look further. Sometimes it's hard, because in the Six Nations, some clans are found in all of them. That was a strength in their social structure: if a Mohawk was traveling west, he would always have relatives in his clan to stay with. Now that is funny that you mention Scotch-Irish, because not only did Iroquois primarily mix with Scotch-Irish, but the Scotch and Irish had a similar extended family - based culture. (There is the joke that NASA doesn't want to send the Irish to other planets, for fear that another Irishman will already be there, and will say, "Aren't your people from near County Kerry?") If you know any more, let me know; if I can find any Addisons, I'll let you know.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Thank you for your response. It gives me hope!
The main thing that made me write was, somewhere in these posts you mentioned 7 generations. My grandchildren (13) range in age from 10 yrs. old to 20yrs. old and are the 7th generation since my Great, Great grandmother Addison,whom I've never met of course. I never even saw any pictures of her. One of my sons did a genealogy search, and her generation is as far back as it goes. I remember my Great Gram, her daughter. She lived in the Catskills in the Walton, Delhi, and Long Eddy area. I've always guessed at either "Oneida,", "Seneca" or perhaps even "Mohawk". Aren't these all tribes of the Iroquois Nation? I would appreciate anything you can tell me! :hi: Thank you!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #100
105. Delhi, Walton, & Long Eddy
I live not far from that area, and by no small coincidence working on a book on the Indian history of that part of the state. The Upper Delaware is the border between Iroquois and Delaware territories. For a long time, it was Susquehannock territory; they are closely related (by clans) to the Onondaga. In the pre-Revolutionary War era, people from the east were pushed westward, and thus the area is famous for the "border wars" involving Mohawk leader Joseph Brant. I have a significant collection of arrtifacts from some of Brant's camps, and some of my ancestors were friends with him. Brant's forces were primarily located at Oquaga (I know of 48 variations on the spelling of this place-name, which translates to "roasted corn soup"), and included Mohawk, Cayuga, Seneca, some Oneida and Onondaga, and people of western tribes, and also "run away" blacks who refused to be slaves, among others. It's a fascinating period, that is best documented in a book "Onaquaga: Hub of the Border Wars," by Windsor NY historian Marjory Hinman.

After the Revoltion, the state of New York would first steal land from the Oneida's, who had been allied with them in the war(!). But a number of families from the Oneida and some of the mixed folks from Brant's forces continued to stay in the gneral area. I can only speculate on the Delaware people in the area NOT being who your g-g-grandmother came from, because they had left this part of NYS. If going by a normal generational span we assume your g-g-grandmother was born circa 1840, my guess -- and it is only a guess -- would be she would have been from one of the local families which were probably a member of extended families connected to Onondaga. There is an Oneida family/clan located near a place called Harpursville near Windsor, that has been there forever. Maybe I'll see my aunt this weekend; she knows these things.

In my second of a four-part interview with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman, in which we discussed is responsibilities to all people -- not just Indians -- as the Gauyesa Toyentha ("The Messenger"), we discussed the history of these areas. In part, he said, "During the Revolutionary War, a man named Sullivan was supposed to exterminate the Onondaga. We're still here, so he didn't kill us all. But he did kill a lot of families.

"Every one of those families knew the history of the area where they came from. They had an oral history of the places and events important to our people. Maybe it was Sidney, or Greene, or Tioga Center. But this knowledge died with them in that war.

"So today, we rely on the people from Sidney, Greene, and Tioga Center to tell the Onondaga the history their people have handed down since that war. Because we can't rely on the state. The DEC won't help us where money is involved. Construction companies destroy burial grounds every day in this state. So we have to rely on the help of local people to help us protect Sacred Grounds from destruction."

Greene, Sidney, and Tioga Center were among the many places Paul and I were involved in efforts, often in court, to protect burial sites. Have your grandchildren go to the library and find the March 1989 National Geographic; it has a good story about a struggle in Kentucky, still Iroquois territory, in which Paul and Leon did the reburials.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. Many Blessings on you brother!!
I am going to book mark this, and print it out. I have a cousin in Pa. who is also doing research. His mother, my mothers sister, may know where Grandmother Addison was buried. That would help, I think.My family always concentrated on the Scotch/Irish heritage. Because we were Mountain people, there were many similarities in culture comparable to the mountain folks in Tenn. Even the same type of speech accents. When my late husband (an African American) first met my family, he used to "teasingly" call me a "redneck"! Our family like many southerners always used our middle names ie Betty June, Pearl May, Sandra Jo etc. etc. I believe many of the same clans migrated to America via the Appalachian Trail, and some settled in the south and others made their way north. I will search the libraries in the area for that National geographic issue, and the book by Marjory Hinman. Thank you again for your help! DC
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Only when the last tree has died
Only when the last tree has died
and the last river been poisoned
and the last fish been caught
will we realise we cannot eat money.



Black Elk foresaw it: Someday all peoples will come pray at the tree - red, black, yellow, and white.

Black Elk also foresaw great thirst, people dying of thirst.

I pray that we come together soon.

Mitakuye Oyasin.


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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thank you IndyOp for this quote. Namaste. n.t
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
77. This entire thread reminds me of Black Elk! I revere his wisdom......n/t
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. that creek looks familiar to me...
is that in new platz... through the hairpin, past the gunks on the right up the dirt road?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. No.
Closer to Oneonta. You are right about the dirt road, though .... my driveway used to be part of an old turnpike. In the late 1700s, there was a cloth & carding "factory" that used the falls for a mill. My son and I found the mill stone, made in Vermont. And of course there are artifacts in the area that show seasonal occupation going back to the early archaic phase.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. there's a place i use to swim at after climbing in the gunks that
looks almost identical. the creek is on your property? if so, you are very fortunate :thumbsup:
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. Its all got todo with Balance and Karma and this is so right!!!
Thanks!!! Chief!!!
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. I hope the spirit reawakens in my lifetime

Mishipiziw, underwater panther

effigy mound wisconsin

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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Can you tell us more about this?
It has piqued my interest.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
84. I have good friends, who know
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 09:18 AM by IndyOp
and one, in particular, believes the spirit will awaken soon - just what will happen in the few years we still await its return, that weighs heavy on mind. What do I need to do everyday to assist in raising consciousness and nurturing spirit? How many people will be hurt between now and when the shift occurs.

Mitakuye Oyasin

==========================================
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. "When an elephant is in trouble,
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:58 PM by Pithy Cherub
even a frog will kick him." Hindu proverb

"There is a spirit and a need and a man at the beginning of every great human advance. Each of these must be right for that particular moment of history, or nothing happens." Coretta Scott King

:hi: H20 Man
Indictment outfit ready - check
Popcorn smilie on standby - check
Drinks coolin' - check
Laughter ready - check



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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
83. Wow - wonderful, wonderful, Corretta Scott King quote!
A spirit, and a need, and a person at the beginning of every great human advance.

This is why conversations about 'we need a great Dem leader' or 'we need a great Civil Rights leader' ring hollow to me -- a person is not enough.

A spirit: True desire to support human rights of every person on the plant - is growing.

A need: Clean air, clean water, a true sense of security

A wo/man: Cindy Sheehan, John Conyers, John Kerry, Barack Obama, Jesse Jackson, Barbara Boxer, Ted Kennedy, , you, me.

Mitakuye Oyasin.
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Cults4Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. When the sweat is good, visions come...
When it is bad, then there are nightmares. Most have some of both... those with guilt in these activities will sweat like they OD'd on Angel Dust in Abu Ghraib.

My didge to your lodge H2O Man.

A long vibe to all as we prepare.

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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. H20 Man - Have you followed the Native support for
the anti-war movement?

Dennis Banks traveled to Crawford Texas to honor Cindy Sheehan as a warrior - he gave her a pin because he could not give her an eagle feather. As he put it on her he said that he was this being given from one chief to another. I took heart at this. This is my new desktop photo:




Also - members of another tribe honored Cindy Sheehan at the DC March.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Oh, yes, I have.
Dennis spent some time at Onondaga a while back .... I'm getting old, I guess, because it was quite a while back! I've always admired him.

The picture of Cindy is beautiful and powerful!It reminds me of the Quote RFK used to use after JFK's death: "God, whose law it is that he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." -- Aeschylus.

Traditional people recognize her as a powerful lady. She has a power that is not accessible to people like the president. He has a dim awareness of it, however, which is why he is so afraid of her. Sad, because if you look at her, she is not someone to fear. She is the power of forgiveness.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. She is the power of good, of honor, of courage, of morality...
of LIGHT and you're right, forgiveness. I love that quote by RFK it's in the book I have called, Make Gentle The Way of This World about his favorite quotes.

H2O Man, is there hope for us? As humans? Will we destroy it all? Will we kill the trees and pollute the water and ruin the habitats of the animals? Will we murder the plants? Is that they path to hell that Handsome Lake saw? It seems we will not change. It seems that even though there are many of us who don't want that, more of us don't want to change our ways, our priorities. Is there hope that we will stop this madness?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. I love that book.
His son Max did a great job with it.

Is there hope for us? Certainly. Martin Luther King, Jr told us in his final message that he had been to the mountain top, and had looked over. I believe that.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. I love the mountains. I can't be there and not know the Divine.
The view is beautiful in the mountains. Thanks for the hope, I need it right now, we all do.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
86. Even in my most desperate moments, I try to remember that
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 09:25 AM by IndyOp
whatever happens, what matters is whether we can be kind - truly kind - to each other on the way.

If it is (or becomes) too late to save the plants and animals and ourselves, can we be truly kind to each other on the way out?

If it is not too late, it is being truly kind to each other that will save the planet and the people.

Mitakuye Oyasin
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
39. Peace to you, H20 Man
and a heartfelt thanks for this post.

I was in tears last night after watching Frontline`s piece on the torture scandal, sick at heart and wishing for some kind of spiritual awakening in this country. The idealism I`ve held onto for 60 years seems as battered as New Orleans but I`m doing everything I can think of to not lose hope.

Early this morning I caught sight of my birdfeeder. There they were: chickadees, blue jays, purple finches, juncos, doves and woodpeckers, still going strong, still singing after ten days of rain here in Vermont. Three types of birds on the thistle feeder. Two different kinds in the squirrel`s tree box. Some mingling together on the ground, a few waiting patiently in a nearby tree. I wanted to be a bird at that moment, just to enjoy the collective cooperation. These birds reminded me of my favorite quote, as did your beautiful photos.

For in the mud and scum of things
there always, always something sings.
(Ralph Waldo Emerson)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Thank you.
The Emerson line is wonderful. I enjoy his work a great deal. I also love to sit in the woods, and listen to the birds. I count myself lucky that I have the opportunity to listen to the birds and watwer falls. It can make it difficult to come back into the house and see Karl Rove on tv.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
43. the spirits are awake
in all of the elements--water, earth, fire, and air. From all directions they, we, are gathering strength, recognizing brothers and sisters, waiting for the beginning.

We kindred spirits come from everywhere, and we have been here all along, earthbound at this time to do great things, to work out truths, to right so many wrongs.

Drink in the air, it whispers "change is coming".

Breathe in the water, it clears away all doubt.

Embrace the earth, although she shakes and moans she remains our foundation, ever strong, ever solid.

Cool your fears with fire, it holds all the passion we need to see us through the coming trials.

We are ready.

We are ready.


We.Are.Ready.

Begin.





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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Begin
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
69. This moment in time...
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 10:59 PM by AmBlue
...feels like the thrill of anticipation just before labor pains are to begin. It's a heady mixture of anxiety and excitement; an awareness of a potentially life-threatening adventure laid out in plain view before you. Knowing you and only you must travel the path, acknowledge the danger, keeping eyes at all times on the precious prize. This potentially life-giving and life-altering rite of passage is utterly non-negotiable. This fight we are all engaged in now is a fight to the death (or life) and it is the evil ones that must succumb. There is power in the air. Drink deeply of it, my friends, and gird your loins well.

The voices of this special gathering of people here have been an enormous force in bringing us all to this special place in our nation's history and I am honored to be among all of you.
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marysdance Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #69
109. This is indeed a special gathering of people
and I also feel it a great honor to be sharing these times with all of you. It feels to me as if these days are the harvest time for seeds planted long ago and brought to fruition over many generations as we/they worked to Realize OurSelves in a new way and on a higher plane.

Thanks so much to all of you for sharing your Light and your Love in this way. I think all of us need to know that we are all here... and that we are truly all in support of one another... and that we are not any of us alone.

We are the Ones we have been waiting for.

Love
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. A Sun Dancer told me, when I anguished over the state of this country
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 08:17 PM by Straight Shooter
(First let me say, this man is a mystic, not just Native American.) When I asked him, why can't the people see, he said, "Sometimes the dragon must completely raise its head before it is recognized."

We are now watching the dragon raise its head.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
87. May it be so. Amen.
I pray it is so.

Mitakuye Oyasin
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. This is the place and the time
We are all brothers and sisters now, and we are seeing something we may never see again.

Let's all swim together...

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
49. "So now, what comes next?
"Our elders have been saying for a long, long time that the world is going to go faster. Things have always happened; there have always been big storms and earthquakes, floods and fires, but now they are happening fast, and it's accelerating. It's going to go a lot faster.

"Because of this, it's real important that we start to slow down.

"The key for all the people in North America is: get to know who you are. Get rid of all your emotional and spiritual garbage -- hate, fear, fire and brimstone, all that junk. The Creator is not standing somewhere with a big stick ready to beat you. You can be who you are. You need to be who you are. That's the bottom line."

- David Gehue for the MiqMaq Nation at the House of Mica (UN Headquarters in Manhattan) at the Nov. 1993 Cry of the Earth

Nine months later, to the day, the first White Buffalo Calf was born. By now -- 2005 -- there are about 18.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Yes!
"... it's real important that we start to slow down." Very, very true. It takes effort, but is necessary to do. Since I retired, it has become clearer to me how hard day-to-day life is for people at the pace the greater society sets.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
75. Ah yes...
The Quickening?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
92. The Woman On Line In Front Of Me Had On A Button
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 12:13 PM by Me.
That said, "The meek are getting ready".
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
50. Thank You H2O Man
here is my connection with serenity....all I have to do is look out the window.



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callady Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
55. We are living in a time of
KOYAANISQATSI

ko.yaa.nis.qatsi (from the Hopi Language) n. 1. crazy life.
2. life in turmoil. 3. life out of balance. 4. life disintegrating.
5. a state of life that calls for another way of living





Hello again to you my friend
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. They have been
showing the wonderful movie by that name on Showtime recently. My copy from years ago had deteriorated, and so I'm glad I was able to record it on a DVD.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
60. We are on the side of the great truth.
This step will take us to the next.
Let us be vigilant, and see.


Thank you all who are here. I feel honored to be among you. Together, strong and weak, we are whole.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
61. They Say That In New Orleans A Hum Has Begun
and they are passing the word, to hum, that the voices may blend together and be raised.
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
72. Beautiful posts
Reading the posts in this thread has brought tears to my eyes. The words and pictures are uplifting.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
76. Peace
Imagine!


Thank you H2O Man... What a great thread.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
78. This is for our love of country and countrymen, not the hatred of * et al.
Sometimes working so hard to bring a DeLay, Rove, Libby, etc. to justice we forget why we want them to come to justice. It is for the greater good of our country that we want them investigated, charged and given a fair trial.

Projecting only from the small goals we can end up in a dark place we do not know.

Love to all.
Fes
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
80. Thank you....
Ho! Mitakuye Oyasin

"We Are All Related"

(Cherokee)


We were taught this (first) as small children.

So simple, beautiful and true.

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
82. Gratefully touched.
A few years ago, I had this "sense" that we are entering into an era of great change; not merely we, Americans, but rather we, humanity. I never imagined that life would become so challenging, so difficult thereafter.

I can see myself taking a dip in the clean river merely 100 feet away from my residence. Interestingly, Love has unexpectedly entered my life. I feel so grateful for the strength others have drawn out of me. I just feel so grateful.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
85. Take it from me. Indians are cracked.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
88. Key, in my opinion: Do not fall into a mental/spiritual trap of
us/them. Do not fall into rooting for or against a 'team.' Do not fall into the traps of hatred or revenge.

Take joy in the revelation of truth, for it is healing.

If you want people who have hurt others to release their power, if you want their followers to change their minds - do not attack those who are abusing their power, because they will respond defensively. Remember always:

Hatred never ceases by hatred
But by love alone is it healed
This is an ancient and eternal law.

The Four Directions Explained - from the Four Direction for Lifelong Learning Institute

"Among the People, a child's first Teaching is of the Four Great Powers of the Medicine Wheel. To the North is found Wisdom. The South is the place of Innocence and Trust. The West is the Looks-Within Place, which speaks to our introspective Nature. The East is the Place of Illumination, where we can see things clearly, far and wide....

"At birth, each of us is given a particular Beginning Place within these Four Great Directions. This Starting Place gives us our first way of perceiving things, which will then be our easiest and most natural way througout our lives. But any person who perceives from only one of these Four Great Directions will remain a partial man." - from The Seven Arrows by Hyemeyohsts Storm

Reaching forward to us from a time when words outlived people, not through technology, nor printing, nor even papyrus, but through sacred story and song, the wisdom of human beings rings as true now as it did then. Learning is not a pastime restricted to a set of years we spend on either public or private buildings dedicated to schooling. Rather it is a path we embark upon, hopefully assisted by members of our society who relate to one another as "the People", and seeing youth as part the same fabric in which they are woven, see it as their duty to keep alive the riches thus far gathered, by imparting knowledge in the form of observable meaning.

Today, we have the greatest difficulty seeing ourselves as "the People" unless we are imagining ourselves under alien attack. Short of that, or natural disaster, we are more prone to define ourselves along the lines of our differences, rather than the commonalities we share on this lifetime voyage. The richness and depth of our experience does depend upon the perceptual and conceptual tools with which we equip ourselves. Each direction offers its contribution to us today, in forms "the People" could never have imagined.

Many in our society decry technology as a dehumanizing influence. Taken to its logical extreme in isolation, mastery of any one of the Four Directions can lead to pathology. However, technology is really as passive as the rest of the universe; if you're pointed in the wrong direction, it will only take you someplace you don't want to go that much sooner. Used in other ways, you may arrive at your destination with new companions and greater insights than you could have reached in isolation.

==============
I don't know anything about the Four Directions institute, I found the passage moving.


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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
89. If Fitz doesn't indict, to quote Howard Dean ...
....aaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!


my head will explode if Fitz doesn't indict, that's what


but cheney's gonna be replaced, here:
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
91. They will return

"My friends,

They will return again
all over the Earth.
They are returning again
Ancient Teachings of the Earth.
Ancient songs of the Earth.
They are returning again.
My friends they are returning
I give them to you.

And through them you will understand.
You will see.
They are returning again
Upon the Earth." - Crazy Horse

From "The Little Book of Native American Wisdom" by Steven McFadden
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
93. We are all sentient beings.
Edited on Thu Oct-20-05 02:13 PM by im10ashus
The negative forces cannot deter us from our natural instincts to care for all life forces. The air, the water, the animals, right down to every single blade of grass that we trod upon should be thought of us one with us. Bless you H20Man. You are a positive force.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Good to see you.
Seems there is a lot of background noise around the White House. That must be what keeps them from hearing.
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flpeach Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
95. Just reading all these comments
Has been uplifting and has raised my consciousness tremendously. Thank you all.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Respecfully joining the Gathering. Thanks all nt
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. I agree - amazing thread
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
102. What is the pile of stones about?
Curious about that photo with the rocks.

Very nice photo & posts, thanks to all. Somehow we have to reach down inside of ourselves and find the balance, I try not to give into the inclination to be revengeful & hateful, that is the wrong path. As we have seen our government do in Iraq- that was about revenge & hate and a monster was loosed upon the world.

I live on coastal new england. This time of year I like to go to the oceanside. The natural force of nature where land meets sea, and has for milennia. The land changes constantly in little ways and sometime big ways. The plants and grasses have returned here at this beach where I go, people of the town have allowed them to.

http://picsplace.to />



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. Those stones
are used in a ceremony which takes place in the small lodge that is in the shadows in the back of the pile. It is a sweat lodge; the rocks are heated to a glowing red hot, and water is poured on them inside. It is a ceremony that everyone north of the equator tended to do, up until Christianity swept through Europe. Then, they took the spirituality out of it, and call it a sauna.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. "They called it a sauna"
:rofl: Good one! I have another question. I believe in "ancestral memory". Do you? Is this a part of Indian Legend and teachings? I can't explain it, but since I was a child I "knew things"!! I felt like an "old spirit" who had been down this path before. I felt it was a gift, and it made me feel special. That's why I chose my DU name, "Discerning Christian". Being an only child, I was always drawn to the "elders". That is still my chosen path,as I work with Senior Citizens as a companion and homemaker. This gives them the choice to remain in their homes, rather than a nursing facility.It is a great blessing to them as well as myself. DC
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. Two answers:
{1} The sauna statement is true. It's a sweat with the ceremony removed. I believe, and someone better informed may know the answer, that some people from Europe still have rituals involved in their group sweat baths.

{2} When I was young, I was taught that "the ancestor and the womb are the same thing." A life properly lived confirms this.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. I hope you didn't think I was laughing AT you!!
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 03:55 PM by discerning christian
I was tickled because of your analogy! I don't doubt a word you say.It made me think how funny this was, and how some cultures think they've "discovered" something new and original! There is nothing "new" under the Sun! Peace
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. Ye Olde Indian Legend
The Legend of the Rainbow Warriors

"The rainbow story is told many ways and in many different places around the world, including on Turtle Island (North America). It has been glimpsed in vision and told for hundreds of years, from dozens of perspectives.

"Among the many ancient versions are the visions and stories of Padmasambhava of Tibet, Eyes of Fire of the Cree, Black Elk and Crazy Horse of the Lakota, Quetzalcoatl of the Toltec, Plenty Coups of the Crow, KuKulkan of the Maya, Monteczuma of the Aztec, the Peacemaker of the Haudenusaunee (Iroquois), and Weetucks of the Wampanoag. Though they lived at different times and in different places, they shared a sense of what would unfold..."

http://www.chiron-communications.com/communique%207-9.h...
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Thank you SpiralHawk
I read the Myth of the Rainbow Warriors. Such Wisdom!!! I loved it.I want to be a Rainbow Warrior, no......I will be a Rainbow Warrior!! :grouphug: :loveya: Now I better understand Ancestral Memory, thanks to you and Waterman. PEACE DC
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
103. Peace, Namaste,
and :kick: for a wonderful thread.
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NoBushSpokenHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
104. I hear the rumble of the drums
and see the flight of the eagle
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
108. give me "one moment in time",,,,each day i wait ...

Each day I live
I want to be a day to give the best of me
I'm only one, but not alone
My finest day is yet unknown
I broke my heart for every gain
To taste the sweet, I faced the pain
I rise and fall,
Yet through it all this much remains

I want one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams
Are a heart beat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will feel, I will feel eternity

I've lived to be the very best
I want it all, no time for less
I've laid the plans
Now lay the chance here in my hands

Give me one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams
Are a heart beat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will feel, I will feel eternity

You're a winner for a lifetime
If you seize that one moment in time
Make it shine

Give me one moment in time
When I'm more than I thought I could be
When all of my dreams
Are a heart beat away
And the answers are all up to me
Give me one moment in time
When I'm racing with destiny
Then in that one moment of time
I will be, I will be, I will be free
I will be free


free us from these evil neo cons..please god!!!!!!!!!!!
fly
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