Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What do you value more? Freedom of belief or freedom

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:25 PM
Original message
What do you value more? Freedom of belief or freedom
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 05:39 PM by HEyHEY
To be free of others' beliefs?
Freedom to own a gun or freedom to not be surrounded by people with guns?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Aerosmith said it best:
Freedom is the ability to choose what you choose to choose (sic).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. I would have to go with that one
Very good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Freedom of belief, freedom to own a gun...
My rights are far more important than restriction of the rights of others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. that's exactly why the US looks like it does today
it's a warlord approach

your freedom ends where it interferes with others freedoms. It's called living in a society. Either there is no point in living peacefully in a community and respecting others needs and freedoms.

Your approach might work on an archipelago, a desert or a wild mountain range, but it's probable you'll be at constant war with your neighbours. It doesn't work in a crowded modern industrial DEMOCRATIC nation.

Example :

My freedom says that your guns are dangerous and threaten me an my family, therefore they should be banned

My freedom says that your religion is obscene and its interference with daily matters and society a threat to my way of living. Therefore your religion should be confined to your church and private sphere. In any case it can't be used as a motive to pass law.

Sorry MAJORITY RULE is THE RULE as long as the minority has a right to express its demands and the guaranteed possibility by elections to change the majority rule.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
8.  I was thinking...
"My freedom says that your religion is obscene and its interference with daily matters and society a threat to my way of living."

That combined with the freedom for everyone to own a gun.... leads to a few problems eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. it does indeed
religion and guns don't mix

look at the KKK, Talibans etc...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I was asked an either/or question...
so I gave an either/or response. Naturally, I'd prefer to have both.

Of course, the real nature of the beast is, yes, I get to have my guns. And should I inhibit the rights of others with them (i.e. I shoot someone) then I pay the price by going to prison.

You're right. My rights do end when they interfere with the rights of others. But the simple fact that I own a gun, or that I practice a certain religion does not interfere with your rights at all.

Majority rule is not the rule. Democracy is not democracy unless the rights of the minority are protected. Otherwise, it's simple mob rule.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. I still think there is a difference in interpretation
the problem is not that you are a nice guy with a gun that you use for hunting and goes to a nice church and help your neighbours. The fact that you have those freedoms can still interfere with others. That why society has to put rules = limits.

Society doesn't have to take the risk to have somebody killed because it's easier to do it with a gun than without, besides the fact that you can go to prison if caught (we don't even take that risk). Therefore it can put a limit on the conditions for ownership of the gun, the gun type and its purpose. Your freedom in this case is an exception granted as a privilege and not the rule.

The practice of your religion can interfere with others : the fundies are a good example of that. In many other western countries they would be stopped by the simple fact that for example laws (majority rule) prohibit the use of religion in other spheres than private. That is to say they can express the will of teaching creationism at school, but they can't because its's forbidden in law (Majority says school = neutral). The pnly way they can change it is by CONVINCING by legal means (elections) that the law can be changed. Which means that they have to take a majority in government.

We agree about majority rule, you expressed better than I did.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
60. We have to agree to disagree there...
In my opinion a person's rights are infringed only when such an infringement actually occurs, not when the potential is there. Restricting or limiting a person's rights should be an absolute worst-case scenario. I'd rather deal with culprits who decide to infringe the rights of others than desperately try to keep each and every person 100% safe with preventative measures.

Of course, I also don't believe in helmet laws and I'm for complete drug legalization. So I guess I do have a nasty libertarian streak. :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. What about a person's right to not be surrounded by armed people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. I've never heard of that "right"...where's it from?
it sounds utterly silly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Well we consider it a right in Canada - and it's not so silly to us
Or anyone who's ever lived through a war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. is it part of your Constitution?
or your version(if you have one) of the Bill of Rights?

I've never heard of it being spelled out that way anywhere...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. It's not in there, but (I forget the exact wording)...
We have a clause about a right to be safe and it falls under that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. the argument can be made that guns, properly used- can make people safe-
how long has it been illegal to own firearms in Canada then, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. That argument can be lost too..look at how many firearm deaths the US
Has?

Guns are not illegal..however guns meant to kill people are.. you can't just carry a handgun here...you can't get a semi auto here...etc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. if guns aren't illegal-
then how can the constitution say that people have a right not to be surrounded by armed people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Surrounded, meaning physically by people around you
IF you're in a park, or at a mall... a right not to have the other people at the park or mall armed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. FYI Canadians own more guns per capita than amerikans. They just aren't
as crazy as we are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. FYI - What Michael Moore DIDN'T point out
Is that we aren't just aloud to carry them anywhere, which is the point I'm making.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. are you allowed to carry them if you keep it quiet then, eh?
what do hunters do then, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. They get a permit
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 06:44 PM by HEyHEY
To have it with them as long as they are going to a shooting range or hunting, gun store...etc, you just can't throw it in the trunk for no reason and keep it there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. what does MM have to do with this issue? Just wondering. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. It was the obvious source of your fact
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. wtf?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. Bowling for Columbine
Michael Moore mentions us prominently, though not completely accurately. He makes note of the fact that though we have at least as many guns here per capita, we have a far lower murder rate in our major cities than in American cities (for instance). He erred when he said that we keep our doors unlocked in our cities, though. That would be stupid of us, because Canadian criminals still steal stuff, even if they don't kill people as often. I'll bet he went to a hundred different Toronto houses before he found the two or three that were unlocked.

That being said, there has been an alarming rise lately in gun violence in Toronto, where I live, especially within the Jamaican community, bringing our homicide rate all the way up to a proportionately larger, but still small, fraction of what it is in, say, Detroit. Why, just the other day, a Toronto bus driver was shot in the face by a gang member, and he's lost the sight in his left eye. The TTC has told him that while he can't drive a bus anymore, he'll always have a job with them.

I think the difference is that absolutely EVERYONE in Canada considers it a personal failing of all of us when someone gets shot, that society is to blame. We're pretty communitarian, as people go. I get the impression that there are certain elements in the US who don't share that philosophy. At any rate, it could be a reason why we're not as violent (even though, ironically, we have one of the most violent national sports in the world). Violence makes us feel mortified and ashamed.

I hope that makes sense...?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Made total sense to me
But I'm a Canuck
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. yes, thanks. Got to watch that movie closer someday. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. I thought Canada had the same gun ownership as the US...
...the difference being the gun violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. We don't allow the same kinda guns
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 06:42 PM by HEyHEY
Basically anything used by a reasonable person to hunt is allowed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. No handguns, I assume then?
Just seeking clairifcation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. You can get them, but you have to prove you use them
at least once a month at a firing range, and you can't carry them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Thanks...(nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. hunting only?
home/personal defense is not a consideration?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. At home you wouldn't need a transport permit
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. you said that the only guns you're allowed to own-
are guns that are used for hunting.

glocks aren't used for hunting.

but they're nice in close quarters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. DO you even know what you're arguing anymore?
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:13 PM by HEyHEY
Or are we just gonna keep arguing semantics of the last sentence?

Point is you can't get a handgun unless you use it once a month at a shooting range only. You can't get a semi-auto, fully auto or anything that could be used to take out a shitload of people at once. You can't carry a gun unless you're going somewhere that invloves you needing the gun.

Final result, when you walk down the street you aren't surrounded by people carrying guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MarsThe Cat Donating Member (978 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. ????
here's what you posted:

"We don't allow the same kinda guns...

Basically anything used by a reasonable person to hunt is allowed"

I asked if home/personal defense wasn't also a consideration(when considering what guns you're allowed to own)...

then you came out of center-left field with something about transport permits

as a disabled person- i'm not a hunter, and i don't go to a firing range...but i like to know that i'm safe against intruders in my own home.

and believe me, I am.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I thought I was answering another post
You can have a handgun, or shotgun, or rifle IN your home, but you can't take it outside of your home without a distinct purpose. So you could have a revolver...but you have to prove you use it at a firing range on a regular basis in order to keep it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eglide Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting expression
"Freedom to be free of others' beliefs."

Sounds like freedom to opress those that I disagree with.
Not a very laudable philosophy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well it's happening in places
France for instance with the "no wearing of religious symbols" thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eglide Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Is France a free country? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Compared to the US in most matters - yeap
Even more free in some cases
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. The French think so
But what do they know?

:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Of course France is a free country. Hell, they helped us fight the Brits
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 05:49 PM by CottonBear
and gave us the fucking Statue of Liberty.

France, in their form of government and in their public schools and universities, are SECULAR. France has huge population of Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Their government is based on secularism and that is what makes France unique.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Yes. I hear Peter Parker likes to vacation there with Mary Jane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yes. And they have a conservative President.
Bet you thought Chirac was some kind of left-wing wacko.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
21.  making them less-free
It was great when he won an election by basically promising to send the immigrants on boats back to from where they came.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. never heard of that one... and about scarfs
but there was a "charter policy" at one period yes, but I never heard of that as an electoral promise. Please show your source. BTW he granted the legalization of millions of illegal migrants...

About the religious symbols /

it's only a rule that applies ONLY to high schools DURING CLASS, because public schools are free from religion by definition. The rule after debate has been accepted by the majority of the BIG Muslim organizations in France. What I know of 6 young women out of millions of school pupils have chosen to leave public school and go to a private to keep their scarf on daytime.

The main opponents to the scarf are associations of Muslim women in France and they wanted a TOTAL ban. They didn't get it because frredom of religion in the private sphere in that case didn't interfere with the secular organization of society.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Maybe it wasn't Chirac - I had a friend living there during an election
ANd sent me an email about the story years back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Maybe it was Le Pen
Remember -- Chirac basically got in because he was far LESS right-wing than the alternative! Scary!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
59. Yet another "France is our enemy because they didn't suck up to us" post
You have been weighed
You have been measured
And you have been found wanting.
Begone, and while you're gone, read a book already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. This is only in public schools and government facilities. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Still, it's happening
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. It's happening for the right reasons in France.
In one's private life one is free to wear whatever one wants to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I'm not debating either way..I'm just saying it is an issue there
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. freedom from abuses,
matter alot,like freedom from tyranny,freedom from others abuse of power,domination,sadism,torture,that is important for every person with a conscience to be free from.

Freedom from other people with no conscience who are scamming,busybody,religious,control freaks who desire for control over me overrides justice..Be it my tastes,my body,my life,my speech,ect. I have a right to be who I am and like what I like , when I am harming no one else or forcing them to be like me, in the pursuit of what gives me joy.. Freedom from all unprovoked ,sexual abuse(sexism) racism, attacks and the bullshit from bigots of all kinds who are intolerant of me being alive being who I am. Freedom from intrusive rude,pushy controlling social engineering,greedy,elitists censorious fuck head bullies and abusive pieces of shit..Freedom from the effects of others corruption and corrupt people.Freedom from frivolous death and suffering.. Freedom to have the necessities of life,that all people should be entitled to for being a decent member of a civilization.

That''s a start.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Neocondriac Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. I never..
even considered owning a firearm until GW was re-appointed. Now I own two. Love my country , fear my government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Yes, that is what I have been wondering
I don't own guns and never did, BUT I would rather our government know what its citizenry is armed (to the teeth) and not waiting like sheep for the round up. And I guess I am willing to accept the danger of living near guns. And I do have some experience with that, having experienced a school shooting/murder in 1989.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
63. Are you proposing that
you either own guns or are just waiting to be slaughtered?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. The two are not alike. Freedom of belief is the same, in the end, as
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 06:22 PM by mondo joe
to be free of others' beliefs. For example: If you live next door to me and believe women should not be allowed to wear pants, that's fine so long as you respect that the women in MY house don;t have to live by your belief.

Guns are something altogether different, because a gun is a physical object, not a belief that can be limited to its adherents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Freedom, Liberty and Justice
This is discussing a freedom as separable from justice, separable from
liberty. There is no freedom when you are paying by your taxes every
day an agressive occupation of another nation and the murder of its
people with impunity. Sure, one can hang out in Whyoming and pretend
that the two are not connected, but if freedom to be rich is to support
a mass murder exercise, then there is no justice, and the freedom is
spoilt cream.

Liberty is to be included in "our" government, and i choose liberty
or death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-19-05 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
57. I believe in the freedom not to be imposed upon.
Edited on Wed Oct-19-05 07:58 PM by IntravenousDemilo
That covers both freedom to have your beliefs and freedom from the beliefs of others. It also means freedom not to be spied upon or have my privacy invaded by the government or anyone else.

As far as guns are concerned, I'd much rather have the freedom to walk in safety, not surrounded by gunslingers. "Security of the person" is in the Charter of Rights.

To me, freedom of expression is absolute, but it doesn't presuppose the right to an audience for your expression. You can say or think whatever the hell you want in the privacy of your own home.

But along with these rights, which are reactive, I think, should come responsibilities, which are proactive. And these should go hand in hand. One has the right not to be fucked over by one's neighbour, sure, but there should also be a legal responsibility not to fuck your neighbour over, and if you abandon your responsibility by fucking someone over, you should expect to be taken to court and dealt with. A corollary of this would be, yes, you have the right to say what you want, but you also have the responsibility not to say something that imposes on someone else's freedom, or creates an atmosphere of hostility detrimental to another person or a protected group in society. That's what hate-crime laws are about.

In other words, you can't go to jail for what you're thinking or what you say, but if you think or say something that will adversely affect another, that's another thing, so keep it to yourself and I'll do the same.

Clear as mud?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. Ah HAH!
It's the responsibility that comes with freedom. Too many people see freedom as an 'out'. The "it's a free country" mentality. What most people don't seem to want to recognize is that by valuing your own freedom, by demanding it in fact, you are honour-bound to value, respect and protect the freedom of those around you. Part of that is possibly limiting things that you are in fact free to do.
Being 'free', places a heavier burden of responsibility on a person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
62. I can defend myself from others beliefs--if I want to.
I can argue back or change the channel.

I'll leave the gun talk to the eejits. If anyone wants to shoot me, they'll have to bring their own gun.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-05 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
66. Can't have the first without the second
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Nov 22nd 2014, 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC