Fox on Rove: Possibly Important

[H2O Man]

The three stooges on the Fox Saturday morning news just said that one of their sources said Karl Rove testified for so long yesterday, because Fitzgerald was questioning him about a discrepancy in another witness's testimony. They said the other witness was not Cooper -- who we would expect -- or even Miller.

Could it be the Rove versus Libby showdown?

[eShirl]

1. could have been Powell's testimony

Powell did testify much earlier, didn't he? I'm sure I read that somewhere...

[H2O Man]

3. He did.

However, Rove has testified several times since then.

[Perky]

48. Urban Myth

Someone on a blog said it was so... Nothing in the mainstram press about it and it certainly would have been covered if he did.

[H2O Man]

50. I think that

the Aug 9, 2004 issue of Newsweek reported on Powell's July 16, 2004 appearence before Fitzgerald and the grand jury.

[Perky]

56. I sit corrected

[H2O Man]

69. It was not

given much attention at the time, and has been given almost no attention since. Antone could have missed it. I think it is interesting, because Powell came a week after Fitzgerald had discovered something that allowed him to get the judge to grant an extension. I wonder if the infamous State Department memo, which Dick Armitage faxed Powell on AF1 a year earlier, was part of it.

Powell was confident enough that it was said he did not consult an attorney, or have one accompany him, to the grand jury hearing.

[symbolman]

98. I wanna know why GROSSMAN

Had that Memo first..

That's all the info I had on that one..Grossman passed it along, but where did HE get it?

Curiouser and curiouser..

[Griffy]

94. LOL ..MSM woulda covered it.. like DSM hearings, or peace march..

PLEASE.. I heard Powell testified too, but I would never say that the MSM coverage determines if it happened. We live in the age of propaganda, so please.. dont ever think that the MSM covers the news, cause they dont... they work to create image, and it doesnt matter if its true or not!

[peekaloo]

2. Guano y Guano smack down!

I hope so. Let them rip each other to shreds and both go down bloody.

[H2O Man]

5. Put the boxing gloves on ....

and let them fight it out.

[rateyes]

12. No, take the boxing gloves OFF...

and let them fight it out. :evilgrin:

[H2O Man]

15. You win!

I think things are going to heat up in the next few days. Perhaps the boxing gloves would just get in the way!

[Jackpine Radical]

20. Give them both brass knuckles.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rateyes]

23. I can't wait to see the wolves start...

turning on each other...that's going to be some kind of show!

:popcorn:

[RagAss]

63. I think we all want a "Down Goes Frazier" moment !!!!!

[Neil Lisst]

57. No, give them maces, and let them fight to the death.

And winner lives, but he's neutered and made to serve as Rosie O'Donnell's personal bikini waxer.



http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/

[Ilsa]

8. Eeeeyewww!

"Guano y Guano" *sputter* *spit* Nasty business. I'd love to dee them try and take one another down in Bush's* "loyalty" based admin.

Very good imagery.

[acmejack]

24. available on pay per view

good one peekaloo!

[Neil Lisst]

59. ooo, wish I'd said that!

guano y guano

That's a keeper!


http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/

[Flubadubya]

88. But shouldn't it be ...

guano à guano? I know it's technical, but if it is a play on 'mano à mano' then it should be in that form, which means, of course "hand to hand" (combat).

So it should be "batshit to batshit"... or, hmmm... maybe "batshit AND batshit" does have a ring to it. :rofl:

[Neil Lisst]

68. Great line, peekaloo!

guano y guano!!

[kentuck]

4. Interesting....

Maybe there is a feud going on between the White House and the VP's office? Does Cheney need to remind them of who the real president is?

[H2O Man]

9. One of my favorite lines:

"Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration." -- The Politics of Truth; Joseph Wilson; page 444.

[annabanana]

33. "whoops"

"It was an honest mistake, I had NO IDEA it might be illegal or I would NEVER have done such a thing"

(collapsing in helpless laughter here)

[H2O Man]

34. It's just not

in Karl's nature to break the law. He's an honest man. I think he shares Wilson's outrage on this.

[Me.]

44. Skirt It Perhaps?

Weave, bob and duck his way around it?

[DLnyc]

113. "I don't think anyone could have imagined that lying us into war

and outing deep cover agents could be a bad thing to do . . ."

[mmonk]

35. I thought about that revelation.

Could be more than one against more than one as the sides are divying up.

[madokie]

38. This cabal eats their own

I watched a lot of the watergate hearing and I see another in the making. Only things is time is a wasting.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. If true, why then Cheney would be guilty of conspiracy.

As would Rove.

[FreedomAngel82]

54. Ooo!

This is going to be so good! And I betcha Cheney will turn on them. They won't go down alone that's for sure. It's so much fun watching them tear each other apart! :popcorn:

[robertpaulsen]

112. One of my favorites too!

And proof positive in my opinion that contrary to the rumor mill, Fitz did not start looking into WHIG in response to the recent testimony of Miller and Rove. More likely, he's been on top of this angle since before we did the Plame threads last year.

We're definitely seeing a Rove/Libby smackdown taking place right now. I think Fitz has acquired enough evidence with multiple testifying to indict them both. The question is who will get the heavier indictments and will it lead to a public Bush/Cheney smackdown. I think it's just a question of time.

Remember, both Cheney and Bush have been questioned by Fitz, so both are open to investigation for obstruction of justice after they presumably resign for being named as unindicted co-conspirators. Which would lead to the most beautiful spectacle of all: seeing one of them actually tell the truth in public!

Don't know if that dream will come true, (wonder who would get to play Gerald Ford this time around) but until then:

:popcorn:

[Gman]

10. There are reports of a huge feud between Andrew Card and Rove

It could also be that Andrew Card dropped dime and burned Rove.

[H2O Man]

16. Good point. n/t

[mod mom]

18. Cheney et al need the pardons. bu$h better watch his backside!

[H2O Man]

26. A lot of republicans

believed it when they were told to keep quiet, and President Nixon would grant them pardons. The criminals in this administration are probably being advised by their attorneys to look out for their own best interests. I'm sure that this is true in George W. Bush's case!

[mod mom]

30. Yep, I'm just saying Cheney is one scarey evil dude who would love to be

in control of the pardons. I'm glad they are fighting it out amongst themselves, less time to focus on taking away our constitutional rights and further destroying our country.

[H2O Man]

31. I agree.

I'm sure Cheney is far more interested in protecting Libby than Rove. An interesting point that Matthews made yesterday was that Libby's actions, in what Chris assumes was Lewis allowing Judith to be incarcerated, had to be to protect Cheney somehow. Matthews felt Libby's strange letter hinted at that.

[longship]

106. Pardons == fast impeachment

Rapant abuse of power. People will see right through it. Congress moderates are ready to bolt. Pardons would drive them into the impeachment camp fairly quickly. The public would be with them there.

[H2O Man]

108. I agree fully.

Bush is in no position to pardon anyone right now.

[longship]

109. And if Chimp goes and leaves Crashcart

Crashcart would be in no position either. If it was Hastert, he wouldn't until the last day of his term. Then he could forget running again.

The public *hates* presidential pardons. Guaranteed vote loser.

[caledesi]

74. Cheney and * are on the "outs." I read it somewhere, thought it

was Newsweek, but can't find link now.

Also, there was a recent WH event where Cheney was a no-show. I can't remember what it was. I am tired.

[NewJeffCT]

6. I'm guessing

That Rove wouldn't hesitate to sell a colleague up the creek.

[H2O Man]

13. "According to my sources,

between March 2003 and the appearance of my article in July, the workup on me that turned up the information on Valerie was shared with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administrative and neoconservative cirles." -- Wilson; page 443.

I think Karl might believe that those who gave him the information are responsible for his misbehavior.

[NewJeffCT]

27. of course

If you're a Republican, it's never your fault. And, anything that happened before today can be written off as a youthful indiscretion, even if you were 50 when it happened.

[H2O Man]

28. It's kind of hard

to look at Karl Rove and picture him being willing to take the weight for this crime. I'm sure his lawyers are encouraging him to point fingers. They have to be Fox news' source.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Most assurdley

That would explain the rumors of the "civil war" in the White House now. They're all turning on each other. I wouldn't be surprised if Rove told all about the Iraq group and mentioned name's.

[pacalo]

105. "I put you in this job & I can take you out of this job."

[LunaC]

42. Sounds like Wilson gave Fitz a bread-crumb trail

Wilson did his behind-the-scenes homework and laid out the whole sordid scenario for Fitz to prove true with his power of subpoena. I think the clues to how the GJ plays out are found in Wilson's book. I guess I'm going to have to buy a copy.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. I think that's what is going on too

I always had this feeling that Fitzgerald was going after something more than just Karl Rove. It's also obvious because Karl didn't have that type of security clearance before November of 2004. I think that Bush promoting him shows me personally that Bush was involved in someway with the leak because Bush promotes people who do things for him and are loyal to him. Why did Bush wait until than to promote Karl?

[janx]

99. Who put together the "workup"?

?

[H2O Man]

102. Two names are known

for sure as the leaders of this little adventure: Scooter Libby and Newt Gingrich. It has been suggested that our heroic VP, Dick Cheney, may have attended at least the initial meeting, which is known to have taken place in his office.

[Tatiana]

111. I think Scooter did it, with Cheney's permission.

Then the plan was to get both Scooter and Rove ("two senior administration officials") to dessiminate the information into the press (the 6 journalists, MILLER AMONG THEM).

Also, I think Colin Powell may have gotten wind of the plot (don't count him out for a long time to come; he knows where LOTS of skeletons are buried) and discussed this with other administration officials on AF1, including the pResident.

This is why Colin only tesified once and why he didn't feel the need to get criminally "lawyered up." His testimony was truthful, had no discrepancies, and was verified by the testimony of others. I think he points the finger at Scooter, Rove, Cheney, and Bush.

[meegbear]

7. Bigger than "perhaps newsworthy"?

Fox News, always on the spot!

[Catrina]

11. I was thinking about Libby and

his strange letter to Judy ~ 'the Aspens are turning etc.'

It's early and I need more coffee so I could be wrong but I think it was Libby who emailed Hadley after talking to Cooper, but supposedly he forgot about that, until recently!

Assuming I'm remembering correctly, wouldn't that mean that Libby is off the hook regarding the law that requires them to report any leaks they might discover? Didn't Hadley than call Gonzalez, who waited 12 hours before he reported it?

Although I believe that Libby only emailed Hadley to let him know 'mission accomplished' they could twist that to show he was complying with the law. He might not have known about the law at first, but after his lawyers checked it, is it possible that they told him 'this is not bad, it's good' even though his motives were probably not 'legal'.

I could be remembering this all wrong, but if not, then Libby's email, rather than being a problem for him, could be his way out. Also, although he may have wanted to hide it at first, (which would have been a crime) handing it over would now 'prove' that he had done the right thing! Am I wrong about all of this? Better go have some more coffee!

[H2O Man]

17. I think it was

Rove who had the "recovered memory" that allowed him to find the e-mail. However, I've been up all night, and am making more errors this morning than usual, so I could be wrong.

An interesting question is, who is Fox's source? I think it has to be one of Karl's attorneys. Any other ideas?

[Catrina]

29. I agree that Fox's source

is most likely Rove's lawyer ~

I think you may be right about Rove being the one who remembered the email he had written. But wouldn't that help him? According to the law as I recall, they are supposed to report it when they discover a leak.

There's so much we don't know ~ and if it is a choice between Rove and Libby, I think the prosecutor, while he may find Rove's testimony to be questionable, would be far more interested in Libby's role in the whole thing.

Imo, Rove was given the information on Valerie Plame and told to do a number on her husband, something he relishes. But Libby was part of the whole WHIG operation.

The judge who sent Judith Miller to jail was shown something by Fitzgerald that convinced him a real crime had been committed. Imo, Libby would be far more aware of any plot to plant WMDs, or to out Plame's company, than Karl Rove, who is more of a hitman than an international plotter.

So, in terms of what this all could come down to. Libby could be indicted and Cheney may be implicated, forcing him to step down and be replaced with the GOP's next hope for president (Rice, if she too gets off the hook).

This would save Bush's presidency, at least for now.

The neocons though, would be in trouble, which they most likely are anyway, especially with the Larry Franklin affair, and the trials in January coming up.

Rove may have pointed fingers at Libby ~ claiming he was the one to tell him, (Rove) about Valerie Plame. Libby otoh, has far more involvement with any planting of WMDs etc ~ and ties to the Franklin Affair, the forged documents etc. which Fitzgerald (and the judge) may find far more criminal than Rove's part in all of this.

I think Libby will be indicted, Cheney and his shadow government dragged into it, with maybe more indictments, after people start talking.

I think Rove will get off the hook and Bush will be protected. Just guessing of course.

Oh, and my own opinion is that Bush and Rove knew about everything, but didn't want to know details and therefore have 'plausable deniability'. Cheney and his gang of crooks, including Chalabi, Libby et al, may be of far more interest to the prosecutor.

[H2O Man]

32. I think you are right.

In fact, the judges that heard the two journalists' appeals also saw Fitzgerald's information, and all were convinced that he had uncovered something very, very significant.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. I think right now

Rove is probably trying to find someway to protect Bush and his "presidency" and bring down the others. Cheney and Libby though probably won't let them go down a lone. If they turn on each other, as the rumors seem to be floating around, they could all go down and everybody except for Rove could get indicted for all we know. These people are worse than the mafia and there's no loyalty once someone breaks that oath. If it's you or the other guy you're going to go for the other guy and squeal.

[LiberalinNC]

14. Sounds as if Libby will be the "fall guy"!

Kkkkarl is to important to * to take the fall.

[H2O Man]

22. Interesting.

I'd think Libby is more important to the administration, at least in terms of the neoconservative foreign policy. Rove is surely the president's best buddy, and has greater influence on the domestic party structure. But his foreign policy experience was zero before 2000, whereas Libby has been of great imfluence in that area for a long time.

[annabanana]

40. Would the exposure of the shadow gov't

and the revelation of the attempts to plant WMDs change the administrations MidEast policy?

Or are their underpinnings already so corroded that they can continue to run on hot air and hubris alone?

[mod mom]

45. QUESTION: Does the shadow govmt go deeper than PNAC signatories?

Are they the front people for the puppeteers, or the actual team trying to further the PNAC agenda?

[Me.]

46. Follow The Money

It goes a lot further back than PNAC. My guess is that the ideological beliefs of the neos was a convenient control mechanism and a great looting opportunity for those who are very deeply in the shadows.

[mod mom]

47. So even if Fitz can bring down the Neo-consters there will be others

lurking in the dark? DAMN, and I so wanted my life back!

[H2O Man]

49. From page xxiii of the preface

of retired US Air Force Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty's book, "JFK":

"There are some readers who are unaccustomed to this age-old concept of the power elite. One of the best characterizations of this idea was written by R. Buckminster Fuller in his important book 'Critical Path.' It reads:

" 'In our comprehensive reviewing of published, academically accepted history we continually explore for the invisible power structure behind the visible kings, prime ministers, czars, emperors, presidents, and other official head men, as well as for the underlying, hidden causes of individual wars and the long, drawn-out campaigns not disclosed by the widely published and popularly accepted causes of these wars.'

"It goes without saying that few, if any, credible historians are going to be able to name the individuals who comprise such an elite. One point must be clarified. They are not the Bilderburgers, the Trilateralists, or members of the Council for Foreign Relations. Much more is said on this subject in the chapters that follow, and even then we must realize that one of the greatest strengths of the power elite is that they have learned to live anonymously.

"There is, in Lord Denning's book, 'The Family Story,' a most pertinent reference to the words of Winston Churchill during a heavy bomber attack on Rotterdam during World War II. Denning reports that Churchill, during a conversation among friends, made reference to a 'High Cabal' that had made us what we are. In that sense, Churchill's High Cabal equates with Fuller's 'invisible power structure.' For a man of Churchill's position, and at the war-time peak of his public career, to make reference to a high, or higher, cabal defines the subject. We live under the influence of such a cabal today, whether we realize it or not."

[mod mom]

51. So was the Neocon movement a challenge to this "power structure"

or was did the neocons have a full endorsement?

[H2O Man]

52. It's a younger

generation that is part of the power structure. The neocons came to be a force in the Nixon administration; they took on real power in the Reagan/Bush1 administration; and were able to use Bush2 as an avenue to get back int the White House in 2000. It's important to recognize, as John Dean points out somewhere around pages 100-105 in "Worse Than Watergate," that Bush2 was a "blank slate" on foreign affairs when he took office; Condi Rice was in charge of his "education."

[Me.]

66. Exactly Right On This

and what you wrote in post #49. And it seems that it has finally gone too far and there is an implosion within going on. The younger generation is not half what previous generations were and don't know how to "rig" the system. What's left of the previous generation, poppy and pals, will be dying off soon. Their "legacy" will be left to the likes of *jr. Good for us, bad for them.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. I think it's probably

the full endorsements. How they would benefit.

[katinmn]

36. Whoever the fall guy is may end up squeeling like a little pig

Now wouldn't that be cool?

Unleash the secrets of this corrupt regime.

These people have no honor, integrity or loyalty. I can see them telling all kinds of stuff the minute they get sent to jail.

[confludemocrat]

97. and Judy Miller knowing this is protecting him as the NYT protects her

Isn't that the definition of a criminal syndicate?

[DanCa]

19. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during that testimony (nt)

[SpiralHawk]

25. Rove had to defend himself against Jeff Gannon's testimony

Nah, that can't be it. Harriet Miers approved Gannon's 200 visits to the Bush White House.

Hmmm, maybe Rove had to defend himself against Rush Limbauh's oxycontin-stained testimony on the felafel-scarfing tendencies of propaganda-pushing Republican Media Loofah-suckers?

Hmmm? This calls for another Meditative Doughnut...

[unblock]

91. MIERS approved the GANNON visits? hmmmmmmmm...

could miers have, um, tactfully blackmailed shrub into nominating her?

she's got a stick in the form of gannon stories and a carrot in the form of a 5-4 decision on, say, presidential self-pardons.

:tinfoilhat:

[bullimiami]

37. im surprised they didnt say

that he testified about how awesome bush is and how maybe fitz and the jurors were invited to a big bbq at his house this weekend.

faux sucks.

[milkyway]

41. Rove was all smiles coming out of court because he just fingered Scooter.

Rove thinks Libby's going down, but not himself. I wouldn't count on it, Karl.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. That's a good explaination

I wouldn't be surprised. And plus remember that Karl is a PR guy too. All about the image. I wish I could've be a fly on the wall during all of those testimony's.

[lala_rawraw]

43. Rice or Cheney

[H2O Man]

81. Do you think

that Scooter will appear one last time on Wednesday? Some are speculating he might. I think his attorney will (or has) decline(d), because he has become a target of the investigation. As weak as Judith Miller's NYTimes article is, it makes clear he is in trouble.

[lala_rawraw]

114. Don't know, but reading Ms. Miller's

Account of things over the weekend would suggest that Scooter is in deep shit.

[H2O Man]

115. Way shit deep.

Last week, Matthews noted that his curious relationship with Miller, and his seeming to allow her to stay in jail, could be best explained in the context of his protecting Cheney. I don't think he will break, and so I am hoping others will provide enough information to bring Dick in to play.

[lala_rawraw]

116. Again, go back

And read what Jason and I wrote last week about WHIG. That may help you put this into context. I cannot go into other theories, stories, etc. right now floating about or being written right now, but if you look at that story we did, you may see an answer to your question.

How is that for "blue bird, meet me at tea house on tuesday during full moon" or something equally cryptic?

:D :D ;)

[H2O Man]

117. Oh, yes ....

I read your work all the time. I'm always impressed by the great work you folks do!

[FreedomAngel82]

53. I think so

I heard earlier this week or last week there is a civil war in the White House and it's Bush/Rove v Cheney/Libby. If one sells out the other than that person who was sold out will sell out the other's for revenge. I don't think anyone will go down a lone.

[writes2000]

60. LOL, Rove must be crapping himself! Just think about it...

He spends weeks, months, planning on what he will say if he gets a chance to reappear before the Grand Jury. I'm sure he's come up with "explanations" for the differences between his past testimony and Cooper's testimony. The "mastermind" plots and plans and plots.

And when he gets up there, Fitzgerald doesn't want to talk about that at all! Instead, he has a whole other line of questioning. I wonder if Fitzgerald brought up Cooper at all? Rove must have been reeling, trying to keep up with this new line of questioning.

There's a good chance Rove never got a chance to make his case about his own testimony which is the only reason he wanted to go back in the first place.

[lovuian]

65. Yes I would bet Powell is the renegade in the bunch!!!

or Libby!!!

[Octafish]

67. Libby is a small fry. The real targets are Sneer and Smirk.

While they are major players in Washington, Libby and even Rove will be used as fall guys -- as stated above. Fitzgerald's real targets are those in a position to know the identity of the NOC. And while Powell passed the document around on Air Force One, someone high up the food chain made it possible for Powell to do so. That's the WHIG.

[H2O Man]

70. Interesting.

I am under the impression that while Cheney is on top as far as the business end, that Libby is the better informed (and equally evil) on the politics of the Middle East. I tend to think Cheney is the most powerful in the administration, followed by libby, and that Bush/Rove are a tier down. I think indicting Libby is huge, almost like Haldeman's fall was greater than Agnew's.

[capi888]

71. Reading "Worse than Watergate"

I see Richard Pearle as the founder of PNAC. Stephen Hadley, Kenneth Adleman, Defense Dept policy board. They also have been mentioned as possible targets. Exception is Richard Pearle, who has disappeared and only does speaking engagements, to vilify the war in Iraq. He appeared with Gen. Wesley Clark recently before the Congressional committee, plus he has appeared at some speaking engagements. Could they be part of the shadow Govt???? Lots of questions!!

[thinkingwoman]

72. I think Rove is attempting a coup

I think he's turning on Libby and Cheney hoping that they'll be big enough fish to let him and W skate by. That would, of course, elevate W since I agree that Cheney (and Libby) are more powerful than the prez, regardless of their respective titles.

Further, I believe Rove (and his leaky attorney) think they can pull it off, hence the nervous smile Rove was sporting after his 4 hour visit with the grand jury.

While I'm overanalyzing people's demeanors as they left the court yesterday, I'll add that I think Fitzgerald is tense because he has a good case and knows what it will mean for the country.

While we will all be happy to see the corrupt fall, indictments that reach as high as possible, with un-indicted co-conspirators from the top, would shake this nation to the core. I am actually concerned that the far right will flip out if this comes to pass. Of course, if they do, we need to all tell them repeatedly to "get over it." They should remember what that means from 2000. :evilgrin:

[caledesi]

75. TW....excellent post.

While I'm overanalyzing people's demeanors as they left the court yesterday, I'll add that I think Fitzgerald is tense because he has a good case and knows what it will mean for the country.


Good analysis here. For the country AND for him? Fitz has prosecuted mobsters in Chicago....he knows the risks. I admire this guy.

[thinkingwoman]

76. yes, from all that I have read about him

he seems to be the real thing. America definitely could use a hero.

p.s. thanks. :hi:

[confludemocrat]

95. if any part of what you think is true, then get ready for an "attack"

or some other diversion. I don't think they can even come up with talking points on this if Libby, Rove and others are indicted except to say "innocent until proven guilty" and that will be the first honest "talking point" they have used in about 7-8 years at least.

[Me.]

100. Well, How About "Avian Flu"?

Dire warnings of potentially 150,000,000 killed and as Maureen Dowd pointed out this morning, another "Michael Brown" in charge of that department too.

[Octafish]

77. Going by gut instinct, Poppy's in charge of this gang.

Agnew was the hand-picked gangster picked to succeed Nixon in the BFEE-NAZI axis. He wasn't all that stupid, but he was a crook, which, with that crowd, is the most important credential.

Agree with your BFEE Organizational Chart, H20 Man.Cheney's the straw boss and the big brain behind the outfit, but he still reports to the chimperror's pa. Imagine the meetings where the crazy monkey felt upstaged by Sneer's smarts! "One of these days Ah'm gonna put him in his PLACE!" Now's his chance.

A DUer posted this elsewhere:

FRANK RICH: It's Bush-Cheney, Not Rove-Libby!!!!

by Maccabee
Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 05:56:49 PM PDT

Rich puts the blame where no one else has so far. Just read on. Link and more after the jump...

Asked repeatedly about Mr. Rove's serial appearances before a Washington grand jury, the jittery Mr. Bush, for once bereft of a script, improvised a passable impersonation of Norman Bates being quizzed by the detective in "Psycho." Like Norman and Ms. Stewart, he stonewalled.
That stonewall may start to crumble in a Washington courtroom this week or next. In a sense it already has. Now, as always, what matters most in this case is not whether Mr. Rove and Lewis Libby engaged in a petty conspiracy to seek revenge on a whistle-blower, Joseph Wilson, by unmasking his wife, Valerie, a covert C.I.A. officer. What makes Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation compelling, whatever its outcome, is its illumination of a conspiracy that was not at all petty: the one that took us on false premises into a reckless and wasteful war in Iraq. That conspiracy was instigated by Mr. Rove's boss, George W. Bush, and Mr. Libby's boss, Dick Cheney.

CONTINUED...

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/15/205649/37

The duck is stepping in the noose, all right.

[H2O Man]

82. I liked that article ....

though had the author read DU, going back more than a year and a half, he'd know that many had gone beyond Rove/Libby to Bush/Cheney!

Agnew did what almost all criminals do, in time: he took things for granted. I remember one of the classes I took on investigations long, long ago: the teacher told us that there are 100 things that can help an investigator catch a criminal. A smart crook might think of 35 ways to cover-up. A really bright one might think of 70. But that still leaves the investigator 30 things to work with.

Agnew got so self-satisfied he didn't bother coming up with 30. And the republican party isn't going to invest envelopes of cash or the vice presidency in a fool!

[thinkingwoman]

73. Hey good to see you

I was noting your absence in recent Plame-related threads. I always enjoy reading your posts on this subject.

Good to see you. :hi:

[Octafish]

80. Hi, thinkingwoman! Good to see you!

The daily rabbit has required my presence pretty much 24/7 the past few weeks. Thanks to the little turd from Crawford I don't even get overtime or comp time.

Why Plame Matters

by Ray McGovern

The significance of the Plame affair is not about former U.S. ambassador Joseph Wilson; or his wife, Valerie Plame; or Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby; or even President George W. Bush's alter ego, Karl Rove. White House v. Wilsons is about Iraq, where our sons and daughters – and many others – are daily meeting violent death. And it's about manipulation.

It's about how our elected representatives were deceived into voting for an unprovoked war and what happened when one man stood up and called the administration's bluff. And it's about the perfect storm now gathering, as more lies are exposed (whether in journalists' e-mails or in the minutes of high-level meetings at 10 Downing Street), as guerrilla war escalates in Iraq, and as more and more American citizens find themselves agreeing with Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) that administration leaders seem to be "making it up as they go along."

It wasn't envisaged this way by the naïve "neoconservative" ideologues that got us into the quagmire in Iraq. They may still believe that all will be well if the Iraqi people can only get it into their heads that we are liberators, not occupiers.

So much smoke is being blown over White House v. Wilsons that it is becoming almost impossible to see the forest for the trees. Bewildered houseguests from outside the Beltway throw up their hands: "It's all just politics … and character assassination." And that may well be precisely the impression the media wish to leave with us. Otherwise, left to our own devices, we might conclude they served us poorly with the indiscriminate, hyper-patriotic cheerleading that helped slide us into the worst foreign policy debacle in our nation's history.

Our weekend guests had a hard time trying to understand why the White House two years ago blew the cover of CIA operative Valerie Plame, wife of former ambassador Joseph Wilson. Sure, Wilson had caught and exposed the Bush administration in a very serious lie. But almost immediately, top officials conceded that Ambassador Wilson was essentially correct in dismissing the flimsy report that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium in Africa.

CONTINUED...

http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=6697

Still, life is grand. Thanks to Friends like You.

[thinkingwoman]

85. It's good to work hard, but just remember

to play even harder!

That's what I used to tell myself when I was working 18 hour days for weeks and months on end a lifetime ago. Unfortunately I didn't take my own advice back then and suffered the infamous burn out. :eyes:

Hey, great article you sent me to. It's wonderful to see so much that has been discussed, analyzed, and discovered by DU'ers over the past few years creeping into the rest of the country's consciousness. I particularly loved these two quotes by Powell and Rice in Feb. of 2001:

"Saddam Hussein has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
- Colin Powell, Feb. 24, 2001

"We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."
- Condoleezza Rice, July 29, 2001

It's still unbelievable to me how much big media failed us all. Mind-numbing, really.

[H2O Man]

87. "Mind-numbing, really."

Their exact goal, I would suggest.

[thinkingwoman]

89. touche. nt

[pacalo]

107. It had occurred to me that Rove/Libby were the bait.

[DemReadingDU]

78. Bolton has to be involved somehow

Didn't he visit Judy in prison several times?

[thinkingwoman]

79. I think Bolton is Judy's forgotten "other" source

but that's just a hunch.

[H2O Man]

83. He might also be

Scooter's source.

[thinkingwoman]

84. yes indeed.

Don't you think it's weird that Bolton was so

a. desperate, or
b. overconfident

that he dared to visit Judy in jail personally? He had to know that Fitzgerald, and even the media, would scrutinize her visitor's list.

It's just sloppy, imho.

[H2O Man]

86. It is an arrogance

displayed by those who believe that they are above the law. I suppose he felt a need to reassure himself that Judith would not break confidence with her most important sources. She surely gave Fitzgerald ammunition against Libby!

[thinkingwoman]

92. yes...don't you love her

"I don't recall" defense? It worked for Reagan, so maybe she thinks it will work for her. :eyes:

The part about her not remembering how items got into her notes is the lamest excuse, as anybody who knows journalists realizes. She's a card though, and I found her article amusing, pathetic, and strangely informative. Methinks Libby didn't get the testimony he was hoping for.

[robbedvoter]

90. Conason was saying that they had been so careless in the beginning

because they thought this would be "investigated" by their buddy Ashcroft. They never anticipated a REAL prosecutor.

[H2O Man]

103. Exactly.

As late as 12-5-03, a "senior White House official" was quoted as gloating, "We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one," in the "Financial Times." (Wilson; page 360)

[journalist3072]

93. Or maybe..

There was a discrepancy between Rove and Bush's testimony. Let's remember that Bush also talked to the Prosecutor some time ago. (Mind you, he wasn't under oath when he did it).

[symbolman]

96. Not being under Oath

doesn't mean you can't be charged with Obstruction of Justice :)

I believe with Bush it would be "Under OAF"..

[journalist3072]

101. ROFL! So true! eom

[davsand]

104. I look for Unca Dick to exit very soon.

If Fitz and the Grand Jury have Cheney in the cross-hairs, I seriously look to see Cheney out of the White House very soon. It will be due to "health problems" or maybe even he'll go room temp--but either way he'll be gone before they can do much with him. The LAST thing they need is him to offer any kind of testimony on ANYTHING.

He can't cut a deal for immunity, because the BFEE has him by the short curlys, and he's got too much information to be left alone. He'll never talk of his own free will, but I CAN see where they would take him out of it with some publicized health problems and a signed pardon in his pocket.

Scooter also has a pardon in his pocket as we speak, IMO. He's going down, but it will be an easy fall with no jail time and probably cash in an account someplace outside the US. Rove is equally protected, I expect--maybe even more-so with a promise of access to the chimp AFTER the fall from grace...

What ALL the neo-cons really never expected was AshKKKroft's punt on the special prosecutor. I honestly think they got caught flat footed by it. I seriously think AshKKKroft put the screw to them because he was morally indignant over the whole mess. He's a wing nut, and he's creepy as hell, but I do think he's serious about being "moral" (as far as he understands it anyway...)

Fitz is one guy I trust as a Prosecutor--He kicked ass here in Illinois, when it was a hell of a mess. From his perspective, as a Prosecutor, he has EVERY reason to follow the food chain on up to the top. Imagine being the guy that nailed the administration. Everyone knows who Woodward and Bernstein are after Watergate, and I think Fitz will be another icon in the future.

Look for Cheney to leave very soon--before they can get much out of him--and look for Scooter to be the fall guy.

Just my two cents.


Laura

[janx]

110. But wouldn't this investigation then blow the lid off of

the "intelligence" and also the relationship betweeen the administration and the media?

These guys can't just quietly disappear, can they?