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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:13 PM
Original message
Which race commits more crimes in America?
I had a conversation with some friends last night and they believe that black people commit more crime in America than white people do. I really find this hard to believe since the white people are the majority race.

Anyone know where I can find stats on this?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. In raw numbers? Whites. In per capita per race? Blacks. nt
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Correction, more Blacks get caught and sentenced to serve...
longer terms than White people. Sad fact, but just think about this as a disparity of punishment, who is more likely to get the death penalty, a White killing a White, or a Black killing a White on the exact same charge?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, they are more likely to be incarcerated.
But the percentages of young blacks here in DC who serve time is amazingly high. And the vast majority is black on black crime.

Hell, I went on the Justice for the DC Jail march last week.
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beingthere Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. those without the capital get the punishment
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. I agree with this.
I'm in criminal court every day in a very liberal county in California. Blacks constitute no more than 5% of our total population but occupy,on an average,33-66% of those chained up waiting for arraignment on felonies. You all may not like this, but it's a fact.

I've drawn no conclusions from this other than African-Americans commit more felonies, per capita w/their own racial group, than any of the other races we see coming through our criminal justice system.

Gyre
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. I think your comment about blacks committing
more crime is ridiculous. How do you know that? Simply because they are in court, arrested and convicted? We live in a racist society where crimes for which whites are let off, blacks are severely punished. Blacks are racially profiled, not whites. You can have two cars driving down the NJ turnpike, one full of blacks, the other full of whites. Who do you think will be pulled over by the cops? Of course it will be the car full of blacks. If someone in that car was stupid enough to have drugs, then he and possibly others in the car will be arrested, charged and convicted. The other car with the whites may also have had drugs but they would not be pull over so their drugs would never be discovered. The police will let white youths get away with minor crime with just a warning. But black will not be so lucky. White cops look for crime in black neighborhoods so that's where they will find crime. If they did similarly in white areas, the picture of crime would be quite different. So you don't know anything about the true state of crime in this country. All you can say is that blacks are the people who are arrested charged and convicted most often. That does not mean they commit more crimes or that they are always guilty of the offense for which they are charged.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. All you have to do is look at the girl who gave Meth to the murderer
And see the double standard. She should have at least been arrested for having an illegal substance in her home, but instead they gave her the key to the city.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Clear evidence of
a double standard. If she had been black, she would have been charged for drug possession and reasons would have been found to deny her the reward money. Also, the media would have made a big issue of the drug abuse.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Here is what you need to know: Whites keep the drug trade going
and they are the heaviest users. They have the money to pay for the stuff and therefore do not usually have to commit violent crimes or other felonies to get their drugs. However, the epidemic of "meth" is making many whites even more violent than black drug users. The greates market for drugs is among white Americans. They have the money, they have the cover, and they corner the market.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I agree completely.
Several studies have shown that most drug users in this country are white but one would never know this from most media reports. Even when whites are arrested for drug dealing, they are given shorter sentences than African Americans. The judicial system continues to treat blacks far more harshly than whites who are guilty of the same offense.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Someone else made the comment...
Is this because of racism? Black people also have a higher percentage of false arrest, and worse, being railroaded into jail. So what other factors are at play here?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Blacks do not committ more felonies, consider white collar crime
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 01:57 PM by ultraist
White collar crime costs our society far more than does blue collar crime. But, thanks to INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM, white collar criminals, (generally committed by white businessmen) often go unpunished.

Additionally, Blacks are more likely to get caught and the punishments are more severe.

http://www.nul.org/stateofblackamerica.html

Another disconcerting trend is the growing disparity in the social justice arena. The status of African Americans
fell from 73 percent to 68 percent as compared to whites when measuring equity in sentencing, enforcement,
imprisonment and victimization.
In other categories of the Equality Index, the status of blacks versus whites in
health is 73 percent, education 77 percent and civic engagement is 1.08 percent respectively.

Social Justice: 2005 showed the equality gap between whites and blacks in the criminal justice system
is worsening, going from 73 percent to 68 percent. Blacks are three times more likely to become
prisoners once arrested and a black persons average jail sentence is six months longer than a whites
for the same crime; 39 months versus 33 months.

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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. And "white collar crimes" hurt many more people at one time than
the one-on-one acts of violence blacks are alleged to commit or likely to commit. ENRON is a perfect example. Many whole families were financially and emotionally hurt for life by the scumbag corporate cronies.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. true. In England corps can be charged with corporate manslaughter
When you consider how many people are killed in the workplace, due to unsafe conditions or by products that are unsafe, it's apparent, that the costs of corporate/white collar crime are far higher than the costs of blue collar crime.

In England, they have a law whereby, corporations can be criminally charged with gross negligence and corporate manslaughter:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_KYP29y82moJ:www.f...

According to the draft Bill, the new offence of corporate manslaughter would be committed when the way a companys activities are managed or organised by its senior managers cause a persons death and amounts to a gross breach of the duty of care it owes to the deceased. The new offence is therefore concerned with the most serious incidences of management failure that result in deaths, overcoming the current obstacle to securing convictions of companies for corporate manslaughter,the doctrine of identification. This doctrine requires both a company officer to be proved, beyond reasonable doubt, to be guilty of gross negligence manslaughter andto be identified as the controlling mind of the company.
-----
And, as you stated, crimes such as the one committed by Enron execs, adversely affect large numbers of people.

http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/top100.html

The 100 corporate criminals fell into 14 categories of crime: Environmental (38), antitrust (20), fraud (13), campaign finance (7), food and drug (6), financial crimes (4), false statements (3), illegal exports (3), illegal boycott (1), worker death (1), bribery (1), obstruction of justice (1) public corruption (1), and tax evasion (1).
Unfortunately, corporate crime is often violent crime.

The FBI estimates that, 19,000 Americans are murdered every year.

Compare this to the 56,000 Americans who die every year on the job or from occupational diseases such as black lung and asbestosis and the tens of thousands of other Americans who fall victim to the silent violence of pollution, contaminated foods, hazardous consumer products, and hospital malpractice.

These deaths are often the result of criminal recklessness. They are sometimes prosecuted as homicides or as criminal violations of federal laws.

And environmental crimes often result in death, disease and injury.

----

I think it's clear, that the consequences of corporate crime, far outweigh blue collar crime and of course, we know that the large majority of corporate criminals are WHITE males (ie Haliburtion execs).

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1104-04.htm

Where the costs of corporate crime have been estimated, however, the numbers are staggering. Most credible estimates confirm that, in the aggregate, white-collar and corporate crimes cost the U.S. hundreds of billions of dollars annually far more than conventional categories of crime such as burglary and robbery.

Using conservative numbers issued by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, for instance, criminologist Jeffrey Reiman, a professor at American University, estimated that the total cost of white-collar crime in 1997 was $338 billion. The actual cost is probably much greater. For instance, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, estimates that health-care fraud alone costs up to $100 billion each year. Another estimate suggests that the annual cost of antitrust or trade violations is at least $250 billion. By comparison, the FBI estimated that in 2002, the nation's total loss from robbery, burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft and arson was almost $18 billion. That's less than a third of the estimated $60 billion Enron alone cost investors, pensioners and employees.


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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. We can't accurately measure that.
We can only determine who gets arrested and convicted of crimes. Crimes that go undetected and unpunished aren't measured accurately.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. I read some stats the other day
It was in a Dewayne Hickman column in USAToday. You may be able to find it on their website.

Here is the summation.

There are a disproportionate number of black people in prison, around 25% I believe.

However, arrest statistics more closely match the population percentages.

Which of course seems to indicate that white people commit their share of crime they just don't go to prison as often.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. I can't find that article.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Depends on whether you mean per capita or total.
And also, it's hard to tell because of racial disparities in punishment and type of punishment.

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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
51. "Racial disparities in punishment and type of punishment"
Yes, the lack of social justice is a key factor.

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/1200/122k05.htm

The pattern of racial bias in these statistics is confirmed by the research of the US Commission on Civil Rights, which found that while African Americans today constitute only 14% of all drug users nationally, they are 35% of all drug arrests, 55% of all drug convictions, and 75% of all prison admissions for drug offenses. Currently, the racial proportions of those under some type of correctional supervision, including parole and probation, are one-in-fifteen for young white males, one-in-ten for young Latino males, and one-in-three for young African-American males. Statistically today, more than eight out of every ten African-American males will be arrested at some point in their lifetime.

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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. Human Race
Not too many animals commit crimes in the US. As to which "racial type" within the Human Race; it does not matter to me.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Best answer n/t
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. THAT was EXACTLY what I was going to say..the HUMAN RACE!
There are no 'races' in america...it is a euphemism for the color of ones skin...we need to call blue eyed people ..the blue eyed race if we want to use color to determine 'race'... :grr:..this is one of my peeves... :grr: Did I say :grr:?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Offensive ignorant racist flamebait-- why is it still up?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They asked an honest question and everyone has expressed
skepticism about the statistics and what they mean. About how blacks are punished more than whites for the same crimes, etc.

No one's flaming anyone.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. There are ways to OP this issue and not be inflammatory. This one is.
It is either well-intentioned and ignorant or inflammatory.

The "honest question" posed as it is, is oversimplistic and impossible to answer-- it is an invitation to more ignorant responses. Just wait.

It should be yanked or rephrased.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I am trying to find an answer to this so I can correct my friends.
They seem to believe that blacks are more prone to crime. I believe that is an offensive stereotype but I was hard proof to show them.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Show them COPS on TV. Ask them if that is "reality" or propaganda?
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 12:48 PM by omega minimo
Is COPS an accurate refelection of crime in America? Or is it racist propaganda beamed into your friends homes to brainwash them and make them "seem to believe that blacks are more prone to crime"?

Are they educated/open-minded enough to realize they have been duped?

There's a lot more to the Big Picture than who is "prone" to crime. That is why I objected to the short-sighted provocation of the way you posed the OP title.

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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Educated yes...open-minded no...
I couldn't believe I was having this conversation with them actually. I was completely stunned by their ignorance.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. Tell them to look at
Court Tv, American Justice and a few other crime shows. Sure are a lot of violent offenders shown on those programs and most are not black.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
60. Tell them to grow up and stop trying to slander others. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
59. Absolutely. No question whatsoever.
It's ugly seeing how blatantly these topics are thrown up, "in all innocence."

No one is ever fooled. Not one. You have a direct view of the person behind the topic, with no illusion whatsoever.

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lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is really subjective.



Blacks and Hispanics are "detained for questioning" more often than whites, especially in the inner-city neighborhoods and this often leads to an arrest. They may not have done anything to arouse suspicion but just being questioned or frisked may lead to charges that ordinarily would not have involved Whites. The detainee might not like being the subject of an arbitrary police investigation (I know I wouldn't) and that may lead to resisting arrest charges when there wasn't actually any "probable cause" to begin with. In spite of what police agencies may say, profiling is still alive and well.


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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I agree. America is overall guilty of selective prosecution.
Start with driving-while-black and work your way up or down from there.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. Disagree with your premise.
If blacks were arrested at a disproportionate rate and acquitted, or had charges dismissed, (humans being what they are) massive lawsuits would result. I haven't seen that happen.

Gyre
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. the system is designed to function exactly as it does
:shrug:
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
49. Some blacks will not
file lawsuits out of fear of the police. The cops have their names and addresses and can make life miserable for them and their families.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. Are you actually denying institutionalized racism?
Linking Blacks with criminality is crude stereotyping, born from ignorance.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
74. you haven't been looking or you see only what you want to see
try google.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Exactly.
I brought up the whole "driving while back"...their response shocked me. They said they only do this because cops are "experienced" to know what to look for in regards to who is going to commit a crime.

I was just stunned at the ignorance.

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jmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Yet what happens to this experience once a crime as happened?
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 01:39 PM by jmm
One summer when I was about 13 a few white kids in my neighborhood decided to break into an abandoned apartment building behind ours. My brother and I wanted no part of it so we went home. Our mom asked what was going on and we told her so she called the cops. Soon after she called a black friend of ours came looking for us and saw them on the porch, He didn't know what was going on and stopped to say hi. Not even a minute after he arrived the cops did. Guess who became the ring leader? Luckily my mom saw most of what happened and screamed out the window that he wasn't involved. So after putting their cuffs away they told everyone they were free to go and our friend was to stay away from the street. They ignored when my mom screamed why don't you cuff the blue eyed boy who broke down the door and named everyone who was involved.

When I was in high school a good family friend "fell" five or six times in the shower causing her death. This is why her family was told there would be no investigation into her death. Why waste time and tax payers dollars looking at her ex boyfriend who she had a restraining order against or the people she had testified in court against after witnessing a stabbing a couple of years earlier? Yeah, I'm sure their lack of response had nothing to do with the fact that this was a poor black woman.

I could go on but I think you get the point. All too often the cops and the legal system are experienced at seeing only what they want to see.
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lcordero2 Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. food for thought
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Here's a link.
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 12:37 PM by igil
It's very partial when it comes to race-based statistics. The government is funny about that: they can be spun for racist purposes quite easily.

Post (1) nails it. Even just dealing with just violent crime and chucking out non-violent drug-related offenses as a red herring, you wind up with the absolute numbers in most (all?) categories being majority white; but you wind up with victims and perpetrators being disproportionately black (even those reported, not just arrests or convictions).

There are perfectly good non-race-based, but definitely race-correlated, reasons for it. Not new information, by any means, but known for a decade.

"Who commits more crimes?" is an ambiguous question. I usually force people to distinguish between a count and a rate: Whites commit more (violent) crimes, blacks commit more (violent) crimes per capita.

(I just had saw a parallel debate for abortions: 55% of abortions are by whites, over 30% are by blacks--but blacks are 12-13% of the population.)

On edit: It's worth pointing out that *victims* follow roughly the same breakdown as perps, both those merely *reported* as well as those arrested and convicted. And most violent crime, since it occurs in the home and neighborhood, is still intrarace.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Link?
There is no URL provided.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Dang it.
Phone rang.

Here's the link I was referring to:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Numbers are in Excel format, apart from prelim numbers for 2004.
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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
21. The poor addicted race
commits the most crimes

I had a conversation with a judge up for reelection - the people he saw in his courtroom the most for petty crime, according to him, were poor undereducated with either alcohol or drug problems. over and over, according to him. He was a true believer in treatment options rather than jail, even if the person had to go through treatment 3 or 4 or 5 times before it stuck.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. I agree with this too, in part.
However, the poor and addicted don't just commit "petty crimes". That is a myth that you apparently wish to believe.

Gyre
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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
73. Sorry i am so late in replying to your post,
i was gone for a while.

Petty may have been a poor choice of words, however, as i said above, I was repeating a conversation I had with a judge. I hardy think that someone on the front lines, as this judge is, is inclined to myths.

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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Which gender commits more crimes in America?
The counter question usually shuts down the issue of race and makes for a quick change of subject since no one wants to talk about the obvious: the majority of crime, whether it is violent street crime or white-collar financial crime, is committed by men.

Funny how nobody suggests aborting all male babies as a way to bring down crime. :eyes:
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Nobody's actually suggested aborting all black babies as
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 01:11 PM by igil
as a way to bring down crime. There was a study done maybe 5 years ago alleging that the abortion rate and start of widespread abortion availability tracks well in some communities with the drop in the crime rate, crucially taking into account the relationship between age and criminality. There is a racial disparity in abortion rate they could base the stats on.

But for the US at least, there's not really a difference in the abortion rate based on the sex of the fetus, so I don't think the researchers could have pulled out statistically sound numbers.

Edited to correct at least some typos.
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Bill Bennett weasled around that implication....
...but his intent was quite clear.

It's disingenuous at best to make an outrageous statement, then hastily add that of course, that particular course of action woudn't be moral.

But I'll amend my statement accordingly:

"If you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose; you could abort every male baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.

...an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down."

There, that makes it much better.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
64. As long as that's the complete discourse you're correct.
Absolutely. Without any doubt.

There didn't happen to be any further context, did there?

No, of course not.
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Feel free to provide more context
If you feel the quoted portion is not an accurate representation of Bill Bennett's intent, then support your view with the additional quotes that would illuminate that difference.
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KnowerOfLogic Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
56. Was going to say the same thing. You can bet the wingers won't be making
an issue out of that, because of course men are more likely to be GOPers, so it's okay.
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barbaraann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Race" is a social construct with no genetic basis.
Click on each number at the bottom of this graphic to learn the facts:
http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm
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MsConduct Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. The human race. n/t
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. I can think of one white guy who has killed thousands just this year
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Thx for bringing us back into focus!
:thumbsup:

Gyre
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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
36. Well, a lot of white people voted for Bush...
So would that make them criminals? Charged in the court of logic under the accusation of stupidity?

MIniMandaRuth
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bee Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. Republicans. n/.t
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. interestingly, federal most-wanted lists have relatively few blacks
FWIW...

A few years ago, I saw a page that listed dangerous fugitives. As I recall, the black guys were more likely to be the list for things like armed robbery and narcotics trafficking, whereas the white guys were more likely to be there for child pornography and rape of a child. This difference in the kinds of offenses stuck in my mind. As you'd expect, some members of each group were on the list for homicide.

Actually, some of this difference in the kinds of offenses can be seen in the current US Marshall's fugitives list, and I'd expect in other Wanted lists as well.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
41. it's really more about class, so i'd say the political/corporate class
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 01:46 PM by noiretblu
which is overwhelmingly white and male. their crimes tend to impact millions of people, worldwide.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. I agree. Corporate criminals clearly commit more crimes
And the large majority of corporate execs are white males.

Corporate criminals may not be charged with murder and robbery, but they sure commit murder and robbery:

*Deaths and illness in the workplace due to unsafe conditions
*Death and illness from unsafe products such as pharmaceuticals
*Death and illness from pollution caused by corps

*Robbery: stealing people's pensions, S&L scams,etc
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. Here's an interesting site:
http://www.geocities.com/onemansmind/rb/Crime.html
snippets:
"The assertion that blacks are the biggest factor in the crime rate of the United States is bogus. Regardless of the percentage of the population that blacks occupy, the news media and propagandist groups constantly show blacks as the major perpetrators of crime."

"When you look at the total inmate population of both state and federal prisons, this seems to be the prevalent truth. Even though the majority of prisoners in federal prisons are white, (47%), the total of both federal and state inmates show that blacks are the majority (48%)."

"Because whites make up a total of 67% of all arrests made in 1994, the image that blacks make up and are responsible for the increase in crime is shown as incorrect. All crime effects governmental and judicial resources. White collar crimes cost three times as much to prosecute as violent crimes. (1995 average)."

So, 67% of arrests were Whites. But, 48% of prisoners are Black. Hmmmm....

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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #42
76. Bingo.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. This was so perfect it isn't even funny. This guy I was debating with sent me an email with these same statictics that this guy debunks.
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. "The Color of Crime" equals the color of poverty
"The Color of Crime" is a pamphlet published by white supremacists Jared Taylor and Glayde Whitney, who penned the intro to David Duke's autobiography. There is currently a spate of statistics drawn from this spurious piece of hate that are being propaganda flooded into newsgroups, emails, and message boards -- only they don't tell you that the statistics originate from a white separatist publication. It's worth being aware of this and watching for it. If you see a message with a list of "statistics" that "prove" crime is linked to race, it most certainly originated there. I've had knockdown online battles with some of these people. It's an ugly thing, but the hate groups have discovered that the semi-anonymous internet is a great tool for their propaganda.

The accurate information, of course, is that crime follows poverty independent of race. Those that seek to pin crime as a racial or genetic origin completely ignore the overwhelming statistical evidence that crime is a problem of poverty. Of course, it is in the best interests of certain groups and Right Wing political interests not to address poverty because then the hinge of their divide, their white political capital, evaporates.

For a complete response to the "Color of Crime," see the Southern Poverty Law Center's report at
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. Violent? Males. Youth. White. Lock up all frat boys until they are 30.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. Blacks go to prison more often than whites for crimes because
they can't afford the lawyers that more affluent white people can. So there are disproportionately more blacks and hispanics in prison than than in the mainstream population. Also, many white collar crimes, usually committed by white people, are legal if not unethical. For instance usury has always been considered a crime since biblical times yet is practiced quite openly and legally by our credit card companies today.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
54. The Human Race commits more crime.
The fact of the matter is that most black people do NOT commit crime. There might be a higher percentage of black men who commit violent crime against each other, but crime overall is commited by more white people (white men in particular).

To say that black people commit more crime sounds like racism because it's stereotyping the majority of us who don't commit crime. And I'm pretty sick of it.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
55. Ask them to consider the different collective costs of white collar crime
Edited on Sat Oct-08-05 02:25 PM by izzybeans
versus petty theft. Your confusing an intersection of class and culture for an essential characteristic of a social fiction, race.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/white_collar.html

The upper class costs us more as a nation for their crimes than the folks your debate seems to think have a problem. Crimes of necessity versus crimes of greed. Take your pick.

If you look through the other end of the telescope you'll see that most of these "white collar" folks are white, per capita, so...would that mean there is some essential characteristics about white folks and corporate crime? Or is it better to think in terms of class? Which class causes the greatest net loss to the community? Upper or Lower?

This should be the focus. Turn them away from Bill bennet, the premise is flawed to begin with. It makes no essential difference since "race" isn't explanatory of "crime". Race is actually an indicator of social class within the context of a racist society. It's as if Storks really cause spikes in the birth rate. Something other than race is explaining crime, that something explains both crime and the distribution of social capital between racial groups=class. Just as a change in season explains both migratory patterns for storks and mating patterns for Baltic peoples, so goes with race, crime and class.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
58. Hobbitsssses are trickssssy
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. The human race.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
62. Everybody who answered you is wrong, the race that commits the most crimes
is the HUMAN RACE!
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Walt, I like your answer!
:thumbsup:
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Quite a few people said that.
And of course, they are right.
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BringEmOn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-08-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
70. The race to the bottom
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-09-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
75. i'd tell your friends that their ignorance is criminal
and ask them where their "beliefs" came from...seriouly. why bother to provide them with stats when they haven't provided any information to back up their "beliefs?" where did those "beliefs" come from? personal experience? the snooze? where...exactly? that's how i address this issue when it comes up, and nine time out of ten, those "beliefs" are just that.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. Oh believe me...I did.
I called them on their racist attitudes. Now I have to set about re-educating them.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-10-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
78. Human
Canines are probably a distant second.
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