ATTN DLC Run to the center types; Listen and Learn from Bernie

[LincolnMcGrath]

Bernie Sanders on Thom Hartmann: http://www.radiopower.org/talkradio/

Nation on Bernie http: //www.thenation.com/doc/20050815/nichols

snip Even if he were not a socialist, and even if he were not an independent who eschews most of the trappings of contemporary partisan politics--including those of a Democratic Party he sees as dramatically too centrist, too cautious and too unfocused to counter the country's drift to the right--the enthusiasm Sanders inspires would be remarkable. That he attracts the support he does with what are generally portrayed as career-crushing liabilities in American politics has made his Senate campaign the subject of a good deal of fascination among progressives looking for a successful model in an era when too many Democrats seem to think the only way to win is by trimming their sails. When the question of the moment is, What's the matter with Kansas? it's no surprise that Democrats want to know how Sanders wins tough races in an overwhelmingly rural state by drawing the enthusiastic support of precisely the sort of white working-class voters Democrats have had such a hard time hanging on to in recent elections.

[MrBenchley]

1. So if we want to have a House seat from a tiny district in a liberal state

we have to build a following for years and years and years...

Fascinating. Can't wait until we follow this advice and are reduced to one seat in the House (snicker)...



P.S.: Right wing Ron Paul's got the same tactic down in whackjob Dumfuckistan...and he's batshit crazy.

[LincolnMcGrath]

2. I guess reading the article was to much for me to ask, or listening

him on TH's show. Sticking with the losing DLC tactics will give you your wish of one seat in the house, with the quickness.

[MrBenchley]

3. I read the article, chief....

"After almost thirty-five years of close to constant campaigning, first as the gadfly candidate of the left-wing Liberty Union Party for senator and governor in the 1970s, then as the radical mayor of "The People's Republic of Burlington" in the 1980s and, since 1990, as the only independent in modern history to repeatedly win a US House seat, Sanders has forged relationships with generations of Vermont voters..."

...within his teeny-tiny district in a left-leaning state.

We yet to see if that translates into even statewide support. He got 14% of the vote when he ran for Governor of Vermont (by the way, a Democrat won that year).

[LincolnMcGrath]

5. "...within his teeny-tiny district in a left-leaning state"

WHo won the big District? Keep talking!



BTW I was never in the Navy, Ace. :hi:

[MrBenchley]

6. And look at the coattails he's got

Oh that's right...he doesn't even have a party...

[Selatius]

7. What's your message then?

What's your views on, say, the war in Iraq? Tax cuts for the rich? NAFTA? The Telecommunications Act of 1996? Special interest money dominating politics in both parties? What's your views on labor standards and environmental standards? The heavy concentration of ownership in the corporate news media? Etc.

If you are going to attack a candidate, the very least you could do is announce an alternative vision instead of just standing there sniping. You offer us no vision in the last several posts of yours on this thread.

[LincolnMcGrath]

10. I agree. I still want to know who won the BIG district in VT.

:thumbsup:

[Armstead]

11. There is only one Congressiional district in Vermont

Being a congressman from there is like being a Senator, in terms of representing the whole state.

[LincolnMcGrath]

12. I know

:hi: see post #3

[MrBenchley]

16. Tee hee hee....

"the very least you could do is announce an alternative vision"
I already did...if we behave in a silly manner, we'll soon be reduced to having one House seat.

"What's your views on, say, the war in Iraq?"
What's that got to do with what this thread is about, pray tell? Have I criticized Sanders on that?

"You offer us no vision in the last several posts of yours"
How tragic for you. Thank goodness you've got Bernie and his vibrant political party...well, at least you've got Bernie.

[Selatius]

31. How about addressing the questions instead of sidestepping?

Really, that's the only thing you seem to be doing. As far as Bernie goes, it appears he's got the US Senate seat in the bag. What I am saying is that the Democratic Party should go back to its progressive roots. Standing up for the working man is what made the Democratic Party strong in the past, but it appears corporate special interest money is moving the party away from that.

I already did...if we behave in a silly manner, we'll soon be reduced to having one House seat.

Define "silly." How would you campaign differently than he?

How tragic for you. Thank goodness you've got Bernie and his vibrant political party...well, at least you've got Bernie.

Please, I have been anything but rude to you. If you can, please dispense with the condescension.

[MrBenchley]

33. Why?

They have nothing to do with this thread. Nothing at all.

"Standing up for the working man is what made the Democratic Party strong in the past, but it appears corporate special interest money is moving the party away from that."
Then feel free to join Bernie's party, as I said.

"Please, I have not been anything but rude to you. "
Please, go back and read that again and see if it is what you thought you were saying. And note that I am deliberately avoiding any attempt to be rude when I had an opening.

[Selatius]

35. Why not?

They have nothing to do with this thread. Nothing at all.

Well, all you seem to be doing is criticizing. I'd like to see you put forth an alternative vision, flesh it out. Saying that it's "silly" isn't really being specific. For example, what is it you agree with Bernie on? What is it you disagree with Bernie on? On what aspects of his campaigning style do you agree or disagree? Things like that.

Then feel free to join Bernie's party, as I said.

He's an independent. He's got no party, just people who agree with him.

Please, go back and read that again and see if it is what you thought you were saying. And note that I am deliberately avoiding any attempt to be rude when I had an opening.

I'll go correct that. What I meant to say was, "Please, I have been anything but rude to you." Double negative removed. Anyway, I do feel as if you are talking with condescension and snideness with the last remark.

[MrBenchley]

36. Again, I'd rather stick to the actual issue

"He's an independent. He's got no party"
No shit. Why is that, do you suppose?

"Anyway, I do feel as if you are talking with condescension and snideness"
Funny, I feel like somebody is trying desperately to sidetrack the discussion onto other issues.

[Selatius]

37. With all due respect, I am not trying to do anything harmful here

No shit. Why is that, do you suppose?

For one thing, he never joined the Democratic Party. He hates party politics, sort of like Washington. Bernie thinks there's too much corporate influence within the party.

Funny, I feel like somebody is trying desperately to sidetrack the discussion onto other issues.

So what is the issue? Is it that Bernie presents a way that is unsustainable as far as Democrats are concerned? That if the Democratic Party moved further to the left that it would become a truly regional party?

[MrBenchley]

39. I sure don't see much good from what you post...

"For one thing, he never joined the Democratic Party."
Then screw him. I'm a Democrat.

"So what is the issue?"
You tell me. Further down you'll read that the way Bernie hangs onto his seat is by delivering for his constituents, the way every other Congressperson does. As far as I can see, this is nothing but another Democrat-bashing thread.

[LincolnMcGrath]

41. Who is bashing Dems?

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

43. Wow! Call for Nancy Fucking Drew!!

Who could be bashing Democrats in this thread, I wonder?

[LincolnMcGrath]

46. Howard Dean is the only Dem named in this thread.

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

47. Geeze, guess Nancy Drew IS needed...

In fact, one amongst us brought up Zell Miller's name....see if you can guess who that was.

[LincolnMcGrath]

48. And he holds what seat currently?

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

49. First YOU guess who brought up Zell Miller's name...

[LincolnMcGrath]

51. So, I can't bash Zell because I brought him up?

Or, I can't bash him because he has a D after his name?

Nobody is bashing elected Dems here. You, on the other hand have told quite a few dems to leave the party.

[MrBenchley]

54. Yeah, you're somebody to heed, all right....

"51. Howard Dean is the only Dem named in this thread.
59. So, I can't bash Zell because I brought him up?"

"You, on the other hand have told quite a few dems to leave the party. "
I see no reason to urge people who are bitterly unhappy with the Democratic party to stay. Especially if all they're going to do is bash Democrats and pimp for third party candidates.

[LincolnMcGrath]

55. I shall resign my current post at the county level post haste.

[MrBenchley]

56. Stay or go....don't wait for my imprimatur

By the way, I wonder if Zell Miller was ever detected being publicly dishonest about how many Democrats were named in a thread on a Democratic website, or ever tried to pretend former GOP operative David Brock had nothing to do with his organization's website.

[LincolnMcGrath]

57. I wonder if he was ever detected saying Bernie Sanders can only win

"...within his teeny-tiny district in a left-leaning state" on a Progressive website? :shrug:

[LincolnMcGrath]

8. ROTF

How many rural areas are the DLC winning?


>He was re-elected in 2004 with more than two-thirds of the vote against a well-funded Republican challenger, sweeping not just his traditional base in Burlington but the vast majority of the state's 251 rural towns.<

[MrBenchley]

13. Geeze, the country is 85% urban....

Wise up.

[LincolnMcGrath]

19. That settles it then. Clearly you are high.

Step away from the bong. :yoiks: lol

[MrBenchley]

22. Check the Census Bureau then, binky...

You'll find that 85% of the country 's population live in urban or suburban areas (which they group as urban), and just 15% in rural ones...

http://www.census.gov/population/www/censusdata/hiscendata.html

Furthermore, rural populations are declining while urban ones are increasing...

[LincolnMcGrath]

40. We still have the electoral college, right ?

Iowa went for * because there are not enough URBAN votes to counter the western iowa rural voters. Remember the Sea of Red counties? Try to respond without any name-calling, please. It is neither progressive or enlightened.

[MrBenchley]

44. That IS rich....

"Remember the Sea of Red counties?"
You mean the crappy map that addlepated Republicans were producing to procve that cowflops and weeds preferred Chimpy?

[LincolnMcGrath]

53. So, * didn't win the rural areas. Is that your arguement?

[freestyle]

18. You do know there is only ONE district in Vermont.

Or maybe you don't. Bernie Sanders has been getting elected statewide for 15 years. So statewide appeal is well established. Also, all house districts have about the same population of around 650,000. Vermont is slightly below that, but not a tiny district.

So, Bernie Sanders has shown how to win doing honest, intelligent retail politics in a district far larger geographically than most and with not much money. There is a lot to learn from that, rather than making thouroughly uninformed comments.

[MrBenchley]

27. Actually, I forgot that.

Again, a win in an area with less than 650,000 souls is hardly a blazing star to steer by elsewhere.

"So, Bernie Sanders has shown how to win doing honest, intelligent retail politics in a district far larger geographically than most and with not much money."
And he hasn't got any coatttails. Nor did his party manage to survive.

I hope you're not trying to imply that Democrats are neither intelligent nor honest...because it sure seems like that to me.

[Selatius]

34. I don't think he's implying that at all

For him, an independent and an avowed democratic socialist, without backing from any major political party to succeed the way he did warrants examination. When you've got Howard Dean saying Democrats should support him, something warrants attention here. What he's saying is that perhaps the Democratic leadership could examine what he did and learn some of the lessons. I don't think he or anyone says we should import his blueprint wholesale but, rather, adapt what would work in the majority of cases.

[MrBenchley]

38. It certainly is what he implied

and if he didn't mean it, he ought to say so.

"When you've got Howard Dean saying Democrats should support him, something warrants attention here."
And when you pay attention, you find that Howard doesn't have a strong Democratic candidate at this time and doesn't want to risk splitting Bernie's vote and ending up with a Republican Senator from Vermont.

It's commonsense politics of the sort any old time pol would be familiar with, which is why Vermont Republicans are howling with rage.

[Armstead]

9. I'm guessing you've never been to Vermont

Other than the fact that it doen't have any big rotting cities, Vermont is as American as apple pie. In addition to the stereotypical granola liberals, it's filled with cranky conservatives, business booster types and plain old average moderate Americans.

Bernie succeeds because he speaks the truth in no-bullshit terms, he has mastered the art of grass-roots politics and under5stands what it takes to WIN with a liberal populist progressive message, without watering it down.

Bernie has done a great job of making progressive principles palatable and welcomed by the very people who should be Democrats, because he is a populist who has made a career oiut of looking out for average working people. He has also won over many conservatives, who otehrwise might well be freepers.

I agree totally with the original poster. Bernie has the message and the passion that every Democrat ought to emulate.

[MrBenchley]

15. Well that guess would be as poor as any of the rest

"Bernie has the message and the passion that every Democrat ought to emulate."
Jeeze, nothing to keep you from joining his party, then...oh, that's right.

[Armstead]

21. Then you obviously had your minds and your eyes closed

I live next door to Vt. and know many people there, including many who are your basic working class guys who support Bernie because they feel like he is looking out for their bacon.

Also, rather than disparaging the fact that he keeps getting reelected by large margins as an independent, you might recognize that as quite a political feat.

[MrBenchley]

24. Nope...

"many who are your basic working class guys who support Bernie because they feel like he is looking out for their bacon"
Really? Sounds like he's behaving like just other Congresscritters then.

But wasn't the rationale for this whole thread that we were supposed to reject business as usual and follwo Bernie because he didn't do such things? Sure was.

"rather than disparaging the fact that he keeps getting reelected by large margins as an independent"
Maybe you ought to wander over to Independent Underground if you want to avoid such harsh talk.

[Armstead]

26. Let me make a suggestion

Go to his website and read his positions and what he has done, and pretend he's a Democrat.

Unless you area diehard conservative, you might actualoly find that his positions are merely the same type of strong but reasonable libral positions Democrats ought to be taking, but which they too often lack the moxie to actually say out loud.


http://bernie.house.gov/

[MrBenchley]

28. So if I PRETEND he's a Democrat, he's a Democrat?

"you might actualoly find that his positions are merely the same type of strong but reasonable libral positions Democrats ought to be taking"
Again, if all you want to do is piss and moan about what Democrats are doing, you ought to join Bernie's party....that is, if he still had one to join.

[LincolnMcGrath]

42. Actually the rationale for this thread was to learn how to win.

Hiring ex-gop activists like the DLC does does not equal a winning formula to me.

[MrBenchley]

45. And Bernie wins by doing just what other Congressfolks do

"Hiring ex-gop activists like the DLC does does not equal a winning formula to me."
Jeepers, don't read Media Matters then. And it sure will be a formula for losing if we can't convince Republican -leaning moderates away from the party of goons and loons.

[LincolnMcGrath]

50. Nicole is an ex GOP activist?

Nicole Casta has worked in government relations for the National Organization for Women (NOW) and the National Partnership for Women & Families, monitoring and analyzing a range of policy issues, including civil rights, educational equity, reproductive rights, women's health, and workplace fairness. Casta graduated with honors from Wellesley College. Originally a researcher at Media Matters for America, she is now Deputy Director of External Affairs.

[MrBenchley]

52. Now tell us who the top dog at Media Matters is....

Or more likely, see if you can dredge up some other obscure official there to pretend you have a point ..

[Gloria]

4. The Democrats should stop labeling themselves and get back to

core issues. For Pete's sake, it's all about people...a populist message combined with common sense on security is about as basic as you can get. Also, having the guts to FIGHT every lie the GOP spews about the party, a candidate, etc.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

14. I'm way to the left - but we all need to stick together & be on one team.

We're all on the same side. The Repubs and the Greens would love to see us splintered.

To me - anybody who is a Democrat and votes Democratic is all good.

[MrBenchley]

17. Agreed...

I'm tired of Democrat bashing and posters plugging third party whackos. If Bernie is so hot, let him join the Democratic party....

[LincolnMcGrath]

23. A Progressive is a Progressive

This is a website for Progressives.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Armstead]

25. We should all be on the same side

But it's kind of hard to feel that way when Democrats are on the same corporate limosine as the GOP. And it is discouraging to constantly hear that it doesn;t matter how conservative a politician is, as long as they have a D after their name. They ought to have to earn loyalty for something besides that.

What I believe is that the Democrats ought to become at least liberal enough to eliminate the urge of many people to support third party bids.

As for Bernie, you can't categorize him as a third party disruptor. He's simply an independent who places his principles before party label. But when push comes to shove in the House, he's usually there with the Democrats.

[MrBenchley]

32. So what's stopping you?

"What I believe is that the Democrats ought to become at least liberal enough to eliminate the urge of many people to support third party bids."
Why? It's not like third parties have managed to whip up enough support to be anything but a tool for the GOP.

"But when push comes to shove in the House, he's usually there with the Democrats."
Let him join the party then.

[Armstead]

58. What;s stopping you from standing for something?

The original poster was merely pointing to Bernie as espousing the message and actions that he believes would be a smart direction for the Democratic Party.

And yet all you can do is snipe about how Vermont is just a Socialist outpost, Bernie has no party, etc. etc. blah,blah,blah.

If you believe Bernie's policies are too extreme or something, that's your right. But you haven't said one fucking thing about what you disagree with Sanders on in terms of actual issues. Nor have you given any positive counterpoint to what you might disagree with in his platform.

[MrBenchley]

59. I stand for the Democratic party

"The original poster was merely pointing to Bernie as espousing the message and actions that he believes would be a smart direction for the Democratic Party."
And I disagree. That's what makes a horserace.

"But you haven't said one fucking thing about what you disagree with Sanders on in terms of actual issues."
Nor do I see any fucking need to. The proposal was that we adopt Bernie's strategy (as opposed to his rhetoric), and so far what we've found is that he delivers the bacon just like any run of the mill Congressperson, and that his personal popularity hasn't necessarily translated into anything else.

If you think a guy whose party evaporates under him is the sort of leader you want, fine and dandy. But I still say, if he's such hot shit, let him become a Democrat.

[Armstead]

60. I guess issues don't matter

Yawn...I enjoy aflame fest as much as anyone, but this empty excercise is a waste of time

[MrBenchley]

61. I guess not...

Since as we see, Bernie is re-elected because he behaves just like every other successful Congresscritter...

[Armstead]

62. You apparentl;y did not look at his webpage

Some progressive Democratic Congresscritters have similar positions, but most are afraid to be as direct and honest, or propose rea; solutions that deal with core issues.

While most Democrats were praising the Corporate elitist conservative values of Alan Greenspan, for example, Bernie regularly rips into him with the brutal truth about the effects of the economy on average working Americans.

[MrBenchley]

63. If he's such hot shit., let him become a Democrat

Otherwise I don't give a red rat's ass....

"most are afraid to be as direct and honest"
I wonder why you would stay in a party you despise so.

[Ksec]

20. If concentrating on issues that are important to me

and my family is a run to the center than why am I a Democrat?

All I ever see are issues that do not affect me being given front and center. What about highlighting Labor issues or corporatisation?

[FreedomAngel82]

29. Bernie Sanders is great!!