I want this country to change.... Not just for the Dems to win!

[RethugAssKicker]

Theres been talk that the Dems need to shift to the center. Well I thought we were pretty much already center, actually a little to much to the right for me... My concern is for the country way above the Democratic Party....

I want to see this country truly free again, free of the outrageous Regresssive policies of the past 5 years. If the Dems have to become more right-wing than they alredy are to win the election... Then I don't want the Dems to win... I will say to hell with the Dems and the Repubs and vote something else; anything else.

So for those who care more about 'winning' by becoming Republican-lite...kiss my ass! .. you unprincipled Freeper-lite!

[pointblank]

1. I just want whatever is about to happen

to just fucking happen already.

I am tired of living my life everyday in this constant state of uneasyness...terror threats, nuking Iran, anthrax, bird flu, fucking victoria's secret mannequins tied up in ropes...I cant take it anymore.

[JohnnyBoots]

2. kick

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Our nation was founded upon ideals

Like the concept of liberty that we need to get back to.

[mike_c]

4. this is the main reason that I will NOT support centrist dems....

The centrists want to continue many of the Bush administration's mistakes, thinking that they can "fix" them and make them run better. I want them chucked into history's dustbin as quickly as possible. Another point to consider-- RESTORING SANITY in American government will require alternative visions, not just different flavors of the same old insane policies. We need government that eschews the "war on terror" and proposes alternative ways to seek peace in the world, not one that simply proposes to continue the madness a little differently. We need leadership with the courage to face hard choices in domestic and foreign policy across a huge range of issues, and to seek rational, long term solutions to problems rather than short term quick fixes (or worse, no fixes). We need government that articulates a truely alternative vision for America and a plan for implementing it, not just more of the same shit on a different day.

[RethugAssKicker]

7. Hear Hear brother

[mattclearing]

5. I think we all have a responsibility to change things.

Dems in office isn't the goal, per se, but it should be a decent side effect.

Edit: This is to say that by living liberally and persuing a vocally progressive lifestyle, you promote leftist causes. The more people do it, the more people will follow suit.

Eventually Republicans will be irrelevant.

[xchrom]

6. it really is about ideas and ideals

not the messengers -- but the message.

and it's about the message changing peoples lives.

if we want to be free from repression, the corporate oligarchy, war, etc. -- then we all have to get behind the message and become more determined every day to make the message more effective.

[bryant69]

8. Well I am a Moderate Democrat

But, just to be clear, I'm not a moderate Democrat because I want to win elections by emulating Republican programs. I'm a moderate Democrat on the issues, not as a political trick.

Actually I'm pretty far away from the Bush gang who are extremists.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[whatever4]

9. Libertarian

I'm temped to say the Green party, and I'm sure they're a fine party, but I want my god damned constitution back, and that is where the Libertarians shine.

I'd advice Libertarian, as a third party, because they might believe in capitalism, but they believe in human rights and civil rights a hell of a lot more than profit.

But, quite honestly, I just don't think it matters, and every time I try to mention a third party (for exactly the reasons you say), I get slammed. Even on here. As if I'm proposing greed and "no taxes", and as if any self-respecting libertarian would espouse leaving our nation and it's peoples in the dirt for profit. They wouldn't, and as far as I can see, THAT is the radical change we need.

But, I'll get slammed. So, what can I say, I tried. Fact is, many folks on here don't "really" want to rock the boat either. What they fear, over and above what BOTH Dems and Reps have done ALREADY, I have no idea, but if the constitution doesn't matter, then none of the rest of it does either.

They'll blind us with smoke and mirrors, the Dems who will win with hardly trying, and then, we'll be saying...gee, we thought they were better.

So, libertarians might not do any of that stuff...but they're too dangerous. At this point, there isn't even any point in discussing it. People will vote in the same types of creeps, from either party, because they just don't seem to know or care better no matter what ANYONE says to the contrary. Believe in the Dems if you want to, and I wish I could too, but from what I've seen, same old parties will get you the same old stuff, and it's just a crying shame we can't friggin AFFORD the same old stuff.

But no. Hate the libertarians. Who KNOWS what they'd do. Sure. They're all "we've got ours and fuck you", as I was told, as I was told HERE on THIS forum a few weeks ago...yeah, those damned selfish libertarians, just can't trust that constitution and government accountability stuff. Just too radical. Too crazy to think we could ACTUALLY fix things.

We're just a nation happy with victims, and I just wish like hell it even mattered if a Dem or a Rep wins the next election, but I don't think it does, and I don't think enough people will be brave enough to consider a third party. Apathy.

Even here.

Just my two cents.

[RethugAssKicker]

10. I don't know that much about Libertarians.. but I do know

that Neil Boortz (a RW hate radio nut) is a libertarian.... And to me he sounds pretty much just like a regressive... He backs the rethugs pretty much all the time..

What I do know:

- they're for a flat tax.. (imo not fair)
- legalization of all drugs (im for)
- every man for himself (no social programs)... definitely against

[whatever4]

15. Thanks for commenting

I left that one off so snide, thank you :)

Okay, as far as the "flat tax", I have to say our tax system is not fair period, and I firmly believe that any tax changes the libertarians would make would NOT be some idea they'd try to force on the people, which we can't say for either Dems or Reps anymore about anything, and that any changes they made would NOT be designed to hurt Americans. They would not participate in the underhanded misuse of any of those principles. In short, any tax changes they made would be in the interest of fairness.

As for the social programs, I have to agree, a lot of them don't seem to get it. But, in their defense, it's more about forcing us all to pay for it, and to me, that means the issue is the forced tax system, rather than the programs themselves. If people WANT programs, they ought to HAVE programs, and I really don't think the leading libertarians would argue about that.

Even all those "I got mine..." libertarians were able to see what happened in Katrina. We all realize that it was basically a contract the people had with this government that, in disasters, assistance would be available. It was contractual failure, and libertarians are BIG on that. They FULLY realize that we ALL funded this nation, and it failed those people, for NO reason, there were plenty funds. They know it.

and, have to add, those libertarians might say they don't believe in social programs, but pin them down, and they generally do believe in them. Just not the waste that always goes along with it, the greedy sorts that want the money and not the responsibility, and the one's that SAY they want to help, but then leave the poor underfunded, underfed, and frankly forgotten, left to subsist on VERY low income levels, and then the levels are kept low. Because, under a forced tax system, only LIMITED amounts of funds are available, and they're given to the needy on a very selfish, "prove you need it!" basis, you can only improve your lot so much before you've gone over the line, and funds/benefits are cut off FAR too soon for anyone to break out of the system without a windfall or some other uncontrollable event.

We think a person ought to be able to do as well as they can, as well as they WANT to, while not stepping on the right of anyone ELSE to do the same. This includes shared resources as well. Messing up the environment for everyone, by a company spewing waste? No, that isn't okay either. We aren't into selfishness, we're into putting the selfishness into perspective. There's nothing wrong with wanting nice things, but there's something wrong when you walk all over someone else to get those nice things. As this admin of ours has gone FAR out of it's way to accomplish, messing us over to get our money. We can deny we're all basically selfish all day long, but if we forget most of us are selfish for our own families, we're forgetting why we believe in freedom in the first place.

Freedom to get better. Freedom to not get better, if you don't want to. Freedom to live your life any damned way you please, as long as everyone else has that same right. It's an important concept, but in more controlled societies that depend on their government for essentials, you lose those rights. Every time.

Free to help others if you choose. Free to try to be just like Oprah, if you choose, though I'll NEVER be that strong, and bless her heart.

What the libertarians fear most is draconian government that takes all our money and hands it to a select few, leaving the rest of us without enough to meet our needs, while they seem to believe our needs are meager and we deserve less, making us all feel like beggars. What we have now.

[tlsmith1963]

11. Despite My Problems With ANSWER

I am *not* "Freeper Lite"! I feel that whenever Republicans start questioning Bush, we need to reach out to them. Why are they still bad if they are coming to their senses? I still believe in the liberal side, but I feel that we shouldn't reject people just because they used to "drink the kool-aid". We should form a coalition with people on the other side who have come to their senses. That is the way to get rid of the neocons.

Tammy

[RethugAssKicker]

12. Yes that is the way to get rid of Neocons... by bringing

them over to OUR SIDE.... not us going to their SIDE!!!

Thats the point of my post!

[xchrom]

13. waking up to the foolishness of believing in bush -- is a far cry

from believing in the philosophies of liberals and leftists.

[mmonk]

14. You've got it!

Change course or lose America.

[jackster]

16. AMEN!

MOVING TO THE RIGHT AND CENTER IS WHAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS!

We need a vibrant discourse with REAL conservatives and REAL liberals in this country to move us forward. I consider myself liberal but I do appreciate a REAL conservative viewpoint from people such as John Dean!

[jackster]

17. AMEN!

MOVING TO THE RIGHT AND CENTER IS WHAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS!

We need a vibrant discourse with REAL conservatives and REAL liberals in this country to move us forward. I consider myself liberal but I do appreciate a REAL conservative viewpoint from people such as John Dean!

[skipos]

18. Questions for third party supporters

If you want to support third party candidates, be my guest. Dem politicians have brought it on themselves. However I have a question.

Do you propose supporting a third party to try and swing Dems to the left? Are you hoping that Dems will say "our base is deserting us for a more progressive thrid party, so we need to be more progressive?"

Or do you hope to create a new party that ultimately replaces the Democratic party?

If your hope is to swing the Dems to the left, I'd say look at 2000. Dem politicians know that Nader sapped votes away from Gore, and many feel that is what helped Bush win. So did that help swing Dems to the left at all? Personally, I don't think so.

If you hope to create a new party that ultimately makes Dems extinct, how long do you think it will take? What if all you succeed doing is spitting the ticket election after election, while Repubs like Bush keep winning?

I'd prefer if you guys would form a third party that saps votes from Republicans (that's what Republican Roosevelt did in 1912 and Democrat Wilson wouldn't have won without him doing it). Jesus Party 2008? Anti-Gay Party 2008?

[RethugAssKicker]

19. My intention is to vote for my ideals.

Whichever party speaks for me, thats who I will vote for. Fuck the BS, inaccurate political strategies. I use to believe like that, but I think its more important to do whats right FOR YOU.

[skipos]

20. what is most important for ME

is having people who represent me THE MOST, actually being ELECTED.

First of all, I accept the fact that I, as well as most people on the DU, are more progressive that most of America. Look at the gay marriage bans that passed in 2004 in solid blue states. That tells me that I will probably never find a politician (that can get elected) that shares all of my views.

Second, supporting some unelectable third party, diverting votes from Democrats and helping to put Republicans in office isn't what is "right" for me. Or right for most of America for that matter. But if that feels "right" to you, so be it. I just don't share your "cut off my nose to spite my face" approach.

Third, as I asked before but no one answered, what IS THE POINT of supporting unelectable third party candidates? To swing dems to the left? Didn't work with Nader in 2000. To make Dems extinct? I don't feel like having decades of Republicans in office while people TRY to make that happen by splitting the ticket.

If the point is just to make you feel good about yourself, even at the expense of helping get Republicans in office, there is obviously no way anyone can talk you out of that.

I have said it before, the clear Republican majority has allowed Republicans to push further to the right. A clear Democratic party would allow Dems to push further to the left.

It is unfortunate that Dems are on the defensive in the last few election, and I sure don't think they need to move to the center to get more votes. By most people's accounts, Kerry lost 48% to 51%. All it would have taken was winning Ohio and Dems woud be sitting pretty and no one would be talking about how Dems are the minority party. All we need to do is support the most progressive, electable candidates we can find. And quit nominating New England senators.
At least that's my opinion.

[sweetheart]

21. the collapse of empire will help with that

bush-bankruptcy USA is setting things up for a big change.

When the "pay the bills" generation comes of age, that has to clean up
the country from the drunken party of grand theft, perhaps that
generation will do something wise. And until then, the air is thick
with testosterone, hate and stupidity.